546 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

Most women who race cars seriously usually have some sort of equestrian background as the physical & mental atributes are very similar. Our BWRDC GoldStar Mentor Liz Halliday is an excellent example of this. Top eventer & Le Mans competitor.

Cynically I'd suggest there were overlapping socio-economic groups.

[Duc-Man]

No, Niki Lauda.

That's fine with me as well.

[Doug Nye]

Doug - the horse weighs 600kgs the F1 car weighs around 600Kgs. The car is as sensitive as the horse, you have to feel the whole process through your body so you become one & the same. The horse can feel a fly on its back & the car can feel a pinhole in the track. The horse has its computer (brain) & so does the car. The rider & driver have to concentrate 100% to make the car/horse do exactly as they want it to & perform at the highest level, this takes years of training & skill isn't it 10,000 hours for top level sport. The big difference is the horses brain can sometimes not compute with the rider & be unpredicatble whereas on the whole the cars computer mostly does as it's told. In International 5* Eventing horse & rider have to jump at high speed over 30 obstacles I think ie imagine jumping a landrover in the middle of the road, some jumps are very tight & skinny & need great precision.

When we were involved in an extremely modest way with equestrian competition we never encountered any 600kg horse which could subject its driver (more than once) to a multiplicity of 6G decelerations and 4-5G lateral loads while also heating him or her to 35-plus degs C, all the while subjecting him or her to multiple vibration frequencies, and all for a continuous period of 80-100 minutes, and sometimes more...

I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but here of all places might one expect some appreciation of what challenges our best endure. Where the core issue is concerned, all this gee-gee talk is simply irrelevant. Or have I got this wrong too? Can one of our four footed friends really generate 4-6G short of for the fleeting moments when one cartwheels into body crunching eternity over the double-oxer?


DCN.

[GMACKIE]

The great advantage cars have, over horses, it that cars can be switched off.

[seldo]

The great advantage cars have, over horses, it that cars can be switched off.

And of course they both travel at the same giddying 45kph.....

[275 GTB-4]

Doug - the horse weighs 600kgs the F1 car weighs around 600Kgs. The car is as sensitive as the horse, you have to feel the whole process through your body so you become one & the same. The horse can feel a fly on its back & the car can feel a pinhole in the track. The horse has its computer (brain) & so does the car. The rider & driver have to concentrate 100% to make the car/horse do exactly as they want it to & perform at the highest level, this takes years of training & skill isn't it 10,000 hours for top level sport. The big difference is the horses brain can sometimes not compute with the rider & be unpredicatble whereas on the whole the cars computer mostly does as it's told. In International 5* Eventing horse & rider have to jump at high speed over 30 obstacles I think ie imagine jumping a landrover in the middle of the road, some jumps are very tight & skinny & need great precision.

Most women who race cars seriously usually have some sort of equestrian background as the physical & mental atributes are very similar. Our BWRDC GoldStar Mentor Liz Halliday is an excellent example of this. Top eventer & Le Mans competitor.


Horse racing is a good analogy for motor racing regarding women because they clearly can compete at the same level but again the pool of female jockeys at the moment is very small.

Love it

[275 GTB-4]

The great advantage cars have, over horses, it that cars can be switched off.

Thought I would make contact Greg, about your statement, before I lose spark and fall off the mortal coil....

Some of the horses I have backed over the years are probably still running...

and, several cars I have owned could only be stopped by engaging top and popping the clutch....only way to stop em running on...

[JacnGille]

No. Officially, it's when somebody mentions the Nazis. Nobody has done that yet.

Oh...

I thought the magic word was Buford.

[Peter Morley]

When we were involved in an extremely modest way with equestrian competition we never encountered any 600kg horse which could subject its driver (more than once) to a multiplicity of 6G decelerations and 4-5G lateral loads while also heating him or her to 35-plus degs C, all the while subjecting him or her to multiple vibration frequencies, and all for a continuous period of 80-100 minutes, and sometimes more...

DCN.

Weren't Godolphin recently discovered to have been working on such beasts?

[James Murray]

Interesting discussion about this last night on BBC 5 live.

Sir Stirling's comments were possibly slightly draconian and left Susie Wolff clearly agitated.

Claire Williams was very measured particularly taking into account she is employing said female driver on the basis that her husband is a shareholder in the team and is not there on merit even if Miss Wolff is claiming that she is - what's her best DTM result?

Gary Anderson hit the nail on the head by saying if a female driver was quick enough she would get a drive on merit. Obvious really.

I switched off before Bernie Ecclestone said anything and I must admit the preceeding programme about the forthcoming British Lions Tour was much more enjoyable!

[kayemod]

Claire Williams was very measured particularly taking into account she is employing said female driver on the basis that her husband is a shareholder in the team and is not there on merit even if Miss Wolff is claiming that she is - what's her best DTM result?

If Toto Wolff (interesting that he appears to have been named after the Cairn terrier in Wizard of Oz) hasn't disposed of his Williams shareholding yet, he has announced that he's about to do that, so Susie Wolff's days there are clearly numbered, though given her obvious talent, she'll no doubt be snapped up by Ferrari or Red Bull... I haven't bothered to check, but I think her best ever DTM placing was something like 13th in several years of trying. That awful TV programme about her was painful viewing, surely they could have found a more convincing woman driver to feature, she certainly didn't do much to advance the cause.

[ReWind]

... Toto Wolff (interesting that he appears to have been named after the Cairn terrier in Wizard of Oz)...

His first given name is Torger. That's apparently what "Toto" derives from. I would be very surprised if the Wizard of Oz had anything to do with his nickname.

[Doug Nye]

Weren't Godolphin recently discovered to have been working on such beasts?

Nice one. Lovely Matt cartoon in ' The Torygraph ' last week, 'Latest! Godolphin entry wins Tour de France!'

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 01 May 2013 - 11:20.

[Peter Morley]

Nice one. Lovely Matt cartoon in ' The Torygraph ' last week, 'Latest! Godolphin entry wins Tour de France!'

DCN

Could almost make it worth reading...

Makes a change from entering a beef lasagne!

[ensign14]

Makes a change from entering a beef lasagne!

What someone does in the privacy of their o...oh, wait, I see what you mean.

[alansart]

Joe Saward's take on the matter including comments from Michelle Mouton. Makes sense to me.

http://joesaward.wor...omen-in-racing/

[john winfield]

Joe Saward's take on the matter including comments from Michelle Mouton. Makes sense to me.

http://joesaward.wor...omen-in-racing/

Michèle Mouton's thoughts are interesting and, given what she achieved, obviously deserve respect. I suppose we could extrapolate from her comments that most women are too sensible to do something as crazy as motor racing, and that, if they do, and are good at it, they are likely to have an instinctive aversion to life-threatening risk which may, finally, limit their success. But maybe Tony Brooks, Bruce McLaren, Denny Hulme, Alain Prost, Niki Lauda and others were similar in outlook, and they were winners. I still think that women, with the right opportunities, can reach the top.

I've read some interesting pieces by Joe Saward, but this contribution strikes me as rather simplistic. A small example; the March team's chassis damage mistake is not mentioned as a factor in limiting Lella Lombardi's GP career.
His final flourish 'others must do the same' brings to an end a rather half-baked argument regarding the double-edged sword of sexism, and an implied criticism of women drivers, and teams, for allowing themselves to be promoted beyond their capabilities, at the expense of better qualified men. It happens, undoubtedly. But rich young guys are over-promoted too. Money, family contacts and perceived commercial potential all have influence in a capitalist, male-dominated society /sport.
What we need, as others have argued more coherently above, is for attitudes towards women within motor sport to mature, for female racers to become commonplace, and for their potential as karters, drivers, testers and racers to be assessed as fairly and logically as for their male equivalent. This will probably take a while yet so, in the mean time, who can blame an aspiring woman racer for grabbing all opportunities, however they arise?

Edited by john winfield, 03 May 2013 - 09:28.

[Jagjon]

When we were involved in an extremely modest way with equestrian competition we never encountered any 600kg horse which could subject its driver (more than once) to a multiplicity of 6G decelerations and 4-5G lateral loads while also heating him or her to 35-plus degs C, all the while subjecting him or her to multiple vibration frequencies, and all for a continuous period of 80-100 minutes, and sometimes more...

I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but here of all places might one expect some appreciation of what challenges our best endure. Where the core issue is concerned, all this gee-gee talk is simply irrelevant. Or have I got this wrong too? Can one of our four footed friends really generate 4-6G short of for the fleeting moments when one cartwheels into body crunching eternity over the double-oxer?


DCN.

I am not sure about G forces or even Gee Up forces but from personal experience horses can stop & change direction immediately, spin & continue fairly quickly, however comment I want to make is that a friend connected to aircraft & training pilots tells me that apparently because women are constructed slightly differently to men their bodies can stand greater G forces than male bodies.
Not knowing about G forces I am only adding this as hearsay & perhaps some other expert may know more.

[jcbc3]

This is Joe's closing sentence:

...I do not believe that it serves anyone’s purpose to promote any driver beyond the level of their talent. Patrick has proved herself to be competitive on occasion in Indycars and in NASCAR, although she has done nothing of interest since taking pole in the Daytona 500 this year. She has earned her right to be the first lady of racing. Others must do the same.

All of us 'defending' women in this thread has said nothing more or less.

What we also say, is that we don't believe there is any physical or psycological reason women can't copmpete in circuit racing with men. Ergo, we don't agree with Doug's opening post and we don't agree with Mouton about the self preservation instinct.

[kayemod]

... women are constructed slightly differently to men their bodies can stand greater G forces than male bodies.

Well spotted.

[lanciaman]

This is Joe's closing sentence:



All of us 'defending' women in this thread has said nothing more or less.

What we also say, is that we don't believe there is any physical or psycological reason women can't copmpete in circuit racing with men. Ergo, we don't agree with Doug's opening post and we don't agree with Mouton about the self preservation instinct.

[D-Type]

I'm still not convinced. It appears to me there must be some factor holding women back. And nobody can put their finger on it.

[E1pix]

Answer: The oldest prejudice in the book.

[D-Type]

I don't think that it is prejudice. Becauseof their 'box office' attraction it almost works the other way: women who display a modicum of talent get offered opportunities that a male with a similar track record would not be offered.

[GMACKIE]

I know it is difficult to do, however, if you leave gender [ I was going to write 'SEX' ] out of the equation, it becomes quite simple.

There are many requirements to be a top F1 driver, and if you don't have them, you are out of luck. Either you have what it takes, or you don't.....and that's it!

[kayemod]

I know it is difficult to do, however, if you leave gender [ I was going to write 'SEX' ] out of the equation, it becomes quite simple.

There are many requirements to be a top F1 driver, and if you don't have them, you are out of luck. Either you have what it takes, or you don't.....and that's it!

Or, to put it another way, Doug had it absolutely right with the first post in this increasingly pointless thread.

[Ross Stonefeld]

No because he implied one group couldn't statistically come up with that exception to the rule. It'd be just as daft if he said gingers couldn't have the potential.

And even if there is a deficit inherent to female drivers, you're making the unwise assumption that we're seeing the very best men racing...

[Doug Nye]

Why not let's all just agree to differ? I know I'm absolutely right, and those who refuse to see the point - which is truly just a very confined one - just know nothing about real, red, raw racing. Many know I'm absolutely wrong and obviously know nothing about anything. But does any of the above really, really matter? Nah... Either way, the sun will keep on rising next morning... The discontented will remain discontent, the smug, fat and happy ... well... smug, fat and happy. In nature, change is very, very slow.

DCN

[275 GTB-4]

Why not let's all just agree to differ? I know I'm absolutely right, and those who refuse to see the point - which is truly just a very confined one - just know nothing about real, red, raw racing. Many know I'm absolutely wrong and obviously know nothing about anything. But does any of the above really, really matter? Nah... Either way, the sun will keep on rising next morning... The discontented will remain discontent, the smug, fat and happy ... well... smug, fat and happy. In nature, change is very, very slow.

DCN

So....
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles....

Who kicked off this whole storm in a teacup anyway

[Lee Nicolle]

No because he implied one group couldn't statistically come up with that exception to the rule. It'd be just as daft if he said gingers couldn't have the potential.

And even if there is a deficit inherent to female drivers, you're making the unwise assumption that we're seeing the very best men racing...

There is probably thousands of better male drivers out there without the money or inclination to play F1. And there is possibly quite a few women better too. Again without the money or inclination.
Not everybody has ever aspired to Bernies control formula!!

[PCC]

Why not let's all just agree to differ?

Yes, please.

What's that line about men of goodwill being able to disagree...? Whatever it is, I'm sure we can agree that it applies absolutely equally to men and women!

[ReWind]

Yesterday Claudia Hürtgen overcame her HATDONY* to win the second ADAC GT Masters race at Spa.




*
Handicap
According
To
DOug
NYe

[kayemod]

Yesterday Claudia Hürtgen overcame her HATDONY* to win the second ADAC GT Masters race at Spa.

Wonderful. I'll ask the question Jenks would have asked, "Who did she beat?"

[BRG]

Wonderful. I'll ask the question Jenks would have asked, "Who did she beat?"

All the men?

[ReWind]

Wonderful. I'll ask the question Jenks would have asked, "Who did she beat?"

All the men?

Yes, and some other women, too.
(Results [by Forix])

[kayemod]

All the men?

Not quite, she didn't beat Dominik Baumann.

[E1pix]

Not quite, she didn't beat Dominik Baumann.

Why do you have such a problem with fast women?

[kayemod]

Why do you have such a problem with fast women?

I don't, not at all. I've been involved with a few 'fast women ' in my time, and they were errr... 'fast', some of them were even capable of reverse parking.

The operative words at the start of this thread though, were "standard-setting", and "highest levels". As I've already said, a woman in F1 who was truly competitive at the sharp end would be great for the sport, and I'm sure we'd all love to see that, but what we don't need are more Chanoch Nissanys, Giovanna Amatis, or Taki Inoues of either sex, or even Claudia Hürtgen in a BMW sports car. What we want is a Francesca Alonso , Michaela Schumacher or Monica Häkkinen. As history tells us, we'll have to wait a very, very long time, and it's just dreaming to put that down to 'male prejudice' as some of you are doing.

[Michael Ferner]

Hear, hear.

[E1pix]

I don't, not at all. I've been involved with a few 'fast women ' in my time, and they were errr... 'fast', some of them were even capable of reverse parking.

Splendid.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The standard-setter may be just around the corner, but for the time being the progress made by the average lady driver is encouraging.

[Michael Ferner]

A good thing Camille du Gast can't hear you...

[Phil Rainford]

Today at Silverstone Susie Wolff was 9th out of 16 runners.....I will hold my hand up she surprised me and she looked fast out on track




PAR

[Tony Matthews]

I'm slightly surprised that, at 30, she is considered a 'young driver' Otherwise, good luck to her.

[mfd]

Today at Silverstone Susie Wolff was 9th out of 16 runners.....I will hold my hand up she surprised me and she looked fast out on track

Where did that place her in respect of other first timers? Can you imagine if she had been fastest o/a. That would have really set the cat amongst...

[Ross Stonefeld]

More so because it was a 2013 Williams

She was half to a full second off the time sent by Daniel Juncadella, in the same car, who was last year's European F3 champion and races in the DTM this year. Whether you take the half or full second depends on which of Juncadella's two days of testing you choose as the benchmark.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 19 July 2013 - 23:02.

[David M. Kane]

Ms. Wolf had a pretty go this week in the Williams. The cars are becoming a lot more driver friendly.

Doug, don't ever change !