143 replies to this topic

[tarmac]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22115827

But I have also been in the same situation as Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel were in Malaysia.
In Turkey 2010, I led the race and was told to back off to save fuel and that Jenson Button had also been told to back off and hold position. Then Jenson overtook me, just as Sebastian did to Mark.

[Grundle]

and to think Button is digging at Vettel. Just shows how obsessed he was with beating Hamilton.

[maverick69]

Pretty obvious given that Lewis had a face like a smacked arse on the podium!

I'm a JB fan - but I thought it was a pretty cheap shot....... not that anything ever seemed to come of it.

[SamH123]

I think it might have been a communication error though. Even here Hamilton doesn't say Button was told to hold position, he says he was told that Button has been asked

[H2H]

and to think Button is digging at Vettel. Just shows how obsessed he was with beating Hamilton.

I like Jenson but he really should have kept that in his mind when saying something so noble. Of course this behaviour was noted before and now Jenson also comes across as a hyocrite. Another case of holier-than-thou it seems.

It is of course all and effect of team orders and the conflict of interest between racing drivers.

Edited by H2H, 12 April 2013 - 10:14.

[bonjon1979a]

To be fair, I'm not sure Button got the message to hold station. Lewis doesn't say that Button ignored team orders either, just that he was told to turn the engine down and that he was told that the drivers would be holding station. I think only one of the drivers had been told this though and so Button thought it was fair game.

[onewingedangel]

Jenson was certainly not told to hold station and the team would not have told Lewis that Jenson had been told to back off, even if that was Lewis' understanding of the advice given to him - team orders were still banned at that point of 2010.

Jenson was told to maintain a set pace and he did. Lewis had been told to maintain a set pace, and for whatever reason had a slow lap that put Jenson right behind him.

Whether Lewis had to save more fuel than Jenson, or if there was a confusion between their respective race engineers in regard to target lap times, Jenson followed his instruction and it put him in position to overtake Lewis.

Once Lewis repassed, both drivers were given updated lap times which accounted to holding station and Jenson didn't try any further overtake despite post race suggestions that Lewis was quite critical on fuel having pushed hard chasing the Red Bulls prior to their collision.

[AnR]

.."so he let me past "

.."Every point, every position I have ever raced for in my whole life I have earned. "

a little bit of contradiction there perhaps?

[maverick69]

.."so he let me past "

.."Every point, every position I have ever raced for in my whole life I have earned. "

a little bit of contradiction there perhaps?

No really.

He was going nearly 2 seconds a lap quicker than Heikki. Heikki just didn't put up a fight. Hardly in the realm of "Fernando is quicker than you" is it?

[Grundle]

Jenson was certainly not told to hold station and the team would not have told Lewis that Jenson had been told to back off, even if that was Lewis' understanding of the advice given to him - team orders were still banned at that point of 2010.

Jenson was told to maintain a set pace and he did. Lewis had been told to maintain a set pace, and for whatever reason had a slow lap that put Jenson right behind him.

Whether Lewis had to save more fuel than Jenson, or if there was a confusion between their respective race engineers in regard to target lap times, Jenson followed his instruction and it put him in position to overtake Lewis.

Once Lewis repassed, both drivers were given updated lap times which accounted to holding station and Jenson didn't try any further overtake despite post race suggestions that Lewis was quite critical on fuel having pushed hard chasing the Red Bulls prior to their collision.

Race edit. Lewis"If I slow down, will Jenson overtake me?" Latham, "No Lewis, no"

[yoyogetfunky]

Im sure the nose extension lovers club woulvd loved to see Lewis nose when he 'wrote' this column.

"In 2008 at Hockenheim we had an agreement between myself and my team-mate Heikki Kovalainen.
I was fighting for the championship at the time. I was quicker than Heikki and was coming through the field, so he let me past because he knew it was what was best for the team and best for me."

Hungary 2010 press conference (2 weeks after Hockenheim) Q: Heikki, in 2008 you moved over for Hamilton. Was that a team order or did you move out of free will? Heikki: I dont remember. Lets talk about this race."

[bonjon1979a]

Jenson was certainly not told to hold station and the team would not have told Lewis that Jenson had been told to back off, even if that was Lewis' understanding of the advice given to him - team orders were still banned at that point of 2010.

Jenson was told to maintain a set pace and he did. Lewis had been told to maintain a set pace, and for whatever reason had a slow lap that put Jenson right behind him.

Whether Lewis had to save more fuel than Jenson, or if there was a confusion between their respective race engineers in regard to target lap times, Jenson followed his instruction and it put him in position to overtake Lewis.

Once Lewis repassed, both drivers were given updated lap times which accounted to holding station and Jenson didn't try any further overtake despite post race suggestions that Lewis was quite critical on fuel having pushed hard chasing the Red Bulls prior to their collision.

Well, team orders were effectively allowed again following Hockenheim when Ferrari weren't punished for putting team orders in place. The team told Hamilton that BUtton wouldn't be passing, ie he'd been told to hold station so you're rewriting history somewhat. Jenson wasn't the villain of the piece, there was just clearly a big miscommunication.

[bonjon1979a]

.."so he let me past "

.."Every point, every position I have ever raced for in my whole life I have earned. "

a little bit of contradiction there perhaps?

Only someone with quite a clear agenda would equate a car going through because it was on a completely different race strategy, in a time where fuel loads differed so hugely with gifting points. Really shows a complete lack of understanding of how F1 works.

It would also have compromised Heiki's race as he was fueled longer and needed to lose as little time as possible over the course of the stint to make his strategy work. You lose so much time fighting it was a complete no brainer for the team.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 12 April 2013 - 10:44.

[Coops3]

Bear in mind that team orders weren't legal in 2010.

[yoyogetfunky]

Only someone with quite a clear agenda would equate a car going through because it was on a completely different race strategy, in a time where fuel loads differed so hugely with gifting points. Really shows a complete lack of understanding of how F1 works.

Different fuel loads...like those at Malaysia 2013?? Please do educate us!

[bonjon1979a]

Different fuel loads...like those at Malaysia 2013?? Please do educate us!

I'll do my best to educate you though I fear I may be fighting a lost cause. Fundamental issue is that in 2008 there was refueling where as in 2013 you have a full tank. Heiki was running much heavier as he was going for a completely different strategy where as hamilton was fueled with less fuel and his strategy was reliant on getting through the field quickly. BOTH drivers would've lost time and damaged their very different strategies had they battled for position so the team sent Hamilton through.

[bonjon1979a]

Bear in mind that team orders weren't legal in 2010.

After hockenheim they became legal because FIA didn't punish ferrari it kind of gave the greenlight for teams to be open about it.

[Rinehart]

Lewis is the one lying here. In Turkey, with about 10 laps to go, Lewis fuel account was far more critical than Jenson's as a consequence of harassing the leading Red Bulls whilst Jenson was saving fuel behind - this was proven after the race when the team took the unprecedented step of confirming that Jenson had more fuel in the car.

What happened with about 10 laps to go was that Lewis was given a fuel save instruction and so was Jenson, but it was unfair on Jenson because he was being asked to be limited to the more critical account of Hamilton - thereby not being given his chance to exerise his advantage.

If anything it was far more like the Hamilton-Rosberg except Button was only categorically told to hold position after he'd given the place back - which he did. So as for Hamilton saying he did what Vettel did. Err, not even close. Hamilton has obviously forgotten he won that race.

[Rinehart]

Race edit. Lewis"If I slow down, will Jenson overtake me?" Latham, "No Lewis, no"

That was a message to Lewis, not JB, which is fairly significant... or do you think F1 drivers have time to listen to other cars radio comms, perhaps even watch Sky F1 whilst they're racing?

[study]

Lewis is the one lying here. In Turkey, with about 10 laps to go, Lewis fuel account was far more critical than Jenson's as a consequence of harassing the leading Red Bulls whilst Jenson was saving fuel behind - this was proven after the race when the team took the unprecedented step of confirming that Jenson had more fuel in the car.

Really, first I've ever heard off this, you sure you're not just making this up.

[Watkins74]

Bear in mind that team orders weren't legal in 2010.

After hockenheim they became legal because FIA didn't punish ferrari it kind of gave the greenlight for teams to be open about it.

The German Gp was after the Turkish Gp so that theory doesn't hold water. Sorry.

[study]

That was a message to Lewis, not JB, which is fairly significant... or do you think F1 drivers have time to listen to other cars radio comms, perhaps even watch Sky F1 whilst they're racing?

this was a communication from the team, you would think it was correct.

[yoyogetfunky]

I'll do my best to educate you though I fear I may be fighting a lost cause. Fundamental issue is that in 2008 there was refueling where as in 2013 you have a full tank. Heiki was running much heavier as he was going for a completely different strategy where as hamilton was fueled with less fuel and his strategy was reliant on getting through the field quickly. BOTH drivers would've lost time and damaged their very different strategies had they battled for position so the team sent Hamilton through.

Always an excuse Hockenheim 2008 was a team order to move over, period. If that wasnt clear enough then Heikkis reluctance to say it wasnt should testify to that.

And while we are at the fuel loads, Heikki was made to bend over so much for mr 'i have earned my every point' Hamilton, that he had to qualify with a much heavier car in 16 out of 2008 18 races.

No, this new Lewis Hamilton'column' is just as Disney like as the previous one, shining brightly on whatever Hamilton supposedly does and did.

[AnR]

Only someone with quite a clear agenda would equate a car going through because it was on a completely different race strategy, in a time where fuel loads differed so hugely with gifting points. Really shows a complete lack of understanding of how F1 works.

It would also have compromised Heiki's race as he was fueled longer and needed to lose as little time as possible over the course of the stint to make his strategy work. You lose so much time fighting it was a complete no brainer for the team.

Oh, that was a bit touchy, what's the difference? A teammate let's someone through, for whatever reason, it's an agreement by all.

[Coops3]

After hockenheim they became legal because FIA didn't punish ferrari it kind of gave the greenlight for teams to be open about it.

But wasn't Turkey before Hockenheim?

[bonjon1979a]

Always an excuse Hockenheim 2008 was a team order to move over, period. If that wasnt clear enough then Heikkis reluctance to say it wasnt should testify to that.

And while we are at the fuel loads, Heikki was made to bend over so much for mr 'i have earned my every point' Hamilton, that he had to qualify with a much heavier car in 16 out of 2008 18 races.

No, this new Lewis Hamilton'column' is just as Disney like as the previous one, shining brightly on whatever Hamilton supposedly does and did.

Dear me the lunatics are taking over the asylum again! I didn't think there was much hope of educating you, but you can only work with what you're given!

[bonjon1979a]

But wasn't Turkey before Hockenheim?

Good point! My bad!

[AnR]

No really.

He was going nearly 2 seconds a lap quicker than Heikki. Heikki just didn't put up a fight. Hardly in the realm of "Fernando is quicker than you" is it?

Off course it is, but with different circumstances, but still an agreement to let the one challenging for the title pass by without a fight.

[P123]

A lot of noise here.

Hamilton doesn't specifically accuse JB of ignoring team orders, so I suspect some a defending fresh air on that. LH received notification that JB was saving fuel too and would not pass. He then did pass, which LH quickly recovered from. Naturally that would take him by surprise given what the pitwall has just told him. A perfectly similar situation to Webber at Malaysia who thought the race was off only to be ambushed by his teammate, so quite clearly Hamilton can empathise with that scenario. Sure, you can excuse JB by saying he never received the same order. We never heard one way or the other.

As for the those pretending to be upset by Hockenheim, they can console themselves with the fact that Heikki never followed his teammate through the field. He finished where he was. He was not hindered. His teammate went on to win the race. A perfectly justified and understandable tactic for HK not to fight the position.

[Lights]

Nice thread title.

[P123]

Always an excuse Hockenheim 2008 was a team order to move over, period. If that wasnt clear enough then Heikkis reluctance to say it wasnt should testify to that.

And while we are at the fuel loads, Heikki was made to bend over so much for mr 'i have earned my every point' Hamilton, that he had to qualify with a much heavier car in 16 out of 2008 18 races.

No, this new Lewis Hamilton'column' is just as Disney like as the previous one, shining brightly on whatever Hamilton supposedly does and did.

Yeah, a general disadvantage in quali (although not 'massive' as your colourful retelling would have it!), but not always in the races. Running longer in the refuelling era was generally a good way to jump those who would pit first and be running heavy when you were light. HK never managed that.

[Burtros]

We will never know the truth will we. McLaren managed whatever happened very well.

Edited by Burtros, 12 April 2013 - 11:21.

[Burtros]

What exactly in there is a lie, he never said anything about button ignoring team orders, urgh some people.

Yeah I reread the article and removed the comment. Hamilton didnt lie - its the OP(Tarmac) who is lying with the thread title.

Edited by Burtros, 12 April 2013 - 11:22.

[bonjon1979a]

Oh, that was a bit touchy, what's the difference? A teammate let's someone through, for whatever reason, it's an agreement by all.

It's not gifting points, it's simply getting as many points for both cars as possible which is the aim of the game in F1.

[study]

yes its a bad title.

We'll never know the facts I suspect, Lathem wasnt' particular good at his job. He should have being on the radio telling him he'd slowed too much.

[jrg19]

Nice thread title.

[beute]

Jenson was certainly not told to hold station and the team would not have told Lewis that Jenson had been told to back off, even if that was Lewis' understanding of the advice given to him - team orders were still banned at that point of 2010.

Jenson was told to maintain a set pace and he did. Lewis had been told to maintain a set pace, and for whatever reason had a slow lap that put Jenson right behind him.

Whether Lewis had to save more fuel than Jenson, or if there was a confusion between their respective race engineers in regard to target lap times, Jenson followed his instruction and it put him in position to overtake Lewis.

Once Lewis repassed, both drivers were given updated lap times which accounted to holding station and Jenson didn't try any further overtake despite post race suggestions that Lewis was quite critical on fuel having pushed hard chasing the Red Bulls prior to their collision.

that's bollocks and you know it.
Lewis asked the team if button was going to pass him if he actually followed the order to "save fuel" and he was assured button would not pass.

it's crystal clear that neither of the two really had to "save fuel", both got the same message at nearly the same time, which was "coincidentally" after both red bulls took each other off...

keep telling yourself that only vettel could do what he did in sepang, but the facts are that at least 2 other top drivers tried the very same thing, and that's where the hypocrisy of the F1 fanbase and journalism really shines... we actually needed to point out those incidents 2-3 years after they happened, whereas if a certain extremely unpopular driver does it the whole forum shuts down immerdiately.

This independent of wether or not you think team order should be obeyed or not.

[rko281]

The truth is we like it when drivers actually speak their minds so that we can discuss it, but there are few drivers that seem a bit "righteous" forgetting some of their past races. When it directly involves them it's ok to make all sorts of statements, even outrageous ones in the heat of the moment ;)

Webber and Vettel saga is between them and their team and let the pundits and forum members over analyze everything.

I read somewhere about Kimi being asked about this "hot topic" and he replied: "It’s not about me or our team, so I’m not interested."

Every experienced driver knows these things are not so new to F1. It happened before, maybe not so clear and publicly. I'm not saying that they would have behaved like Vettel or Webber, but there are some with "race skeletons in their closet".

[AnR]

It's not gifting points, it's simply getting as many points for both cars as possible which is the aim of the game in F1.

It's just a name-game you are using, gifiting, game, tactics, pass-by, ambush, team orders, pick and choose.
In the end it's an agreement before the race on how to handle different situations.

[tarmac]

[Fontainebleau]

Only someone with quite a clear agenda would equate a car going through because it was on a completely different race strategy, in a time where fuel loads differed so hugely with gifting points. Really shows a complete lack of understanding of how F1 works.

It would also have compromised Heiki's race as he was fueled longer and needed to lose as little time as possible over the course of the stint to make his strategy work. You lose so much time fighting it was a complete no brainer for the team.

Longer? He was fuelled till the end of the race, juts like Hamilton was. The move took place after both drivers had gone through their last pit stop, so both were fighting for real position or, if you want to put it more bluntly, both were already in the same strategy.

You should really be more careful and not (quite arrogantly) blame others of showing "a complete lack of understanding of how F1 works".

Edited by Fontainebleau, 12 April 2013 - 12:02.

[trogggy]

Looking forward to the upcoming 'Jenson ran me off the track in Canada' and 'Button stole my muesli' threads.

[Clatter]

I'll do my best to educate you though I fear I may be fighting a lost cause. Fundamental issue is that in 2008 there was refueling where as in 2013 you have a full tank. Heiki was running much heavier as he was going for a completely different strategy where as hamilton was fueled with less fuel and his strategy was reliant on getting through the field quickly. BOTH drivers would've lost time and damaged their very different strategies had they battled for position so the team sent Hamilton through.

That's not quite correct. When Hamilton was let through it was after the last pit stop so fuel loads would have been,as near as damn it, the same. The advantage he had was newer tyres and being simply quicker.

[P123]

That's not quite correct. When Hamilton was let through it was after the last pit stop so fuel loads would have been,as near as damn it, the same. The advantage he had was newer tyres and being simply quicker.

One went on to win the race, overtaking other cars. The otehr stayed where they were. This is an issue because......?

[Clatter]

It's not gifting points, it's simply getting as many points for both cars as possible which is the aim of the game in F1.

That depends very much on the situation. At Hock 2008 LH went on to win where HK made no progress, so no gift there. In Malaysia if NR had passed the points for the team would have been the same, LH was gifted the extra points.

[Clatter]

One went on to win the race, overtaking other cars. The otehr stayed where they were. This is an issue because......?

Never said there was, but they were not running different fuel loads at that point in the race which was the previous claim.

[Sakae]

and to think Button is digging at Vettel. Just shows how obsessed he was with beating Hamilton.

You should count number of headlines his yapping received.

[as65p]

One went on to win the race, overtaking other cars. The otehr stayed where they were. This is an issue because......?

It's not an issue in itself. It only becomes funny in connection with Hamilton implying that he has never benefitted from team orders / decisions in his favour the way other drivers have, which i think he does with:

"Every point, every position I have ever raced for in my whole life I have earned. "

It's not only the one or two times (France 2008 being pretty much like Hockenheim) where he was waved through by Kova. To all intents and purposes he enjoyed absolute no.1 status in 2008/09 regarding strategie, tactics and car development, and for good reason because he was an overall much better driver than Kovalainnen.

The "issue" is not being given preferential treatment, but rather to pretend it never happened with that above quote.

[Fontainebleau]

One went on to win the race, overtaking other cars. The otehr stayed where they were. This is an issue because......?

This is a non-issue exactly like Germany 2010, ie, there were team orders at a moment in which they were forbidden but everybody had them and everybody knew that everybody had them. The only difference is that in one case the overtaken driver showed his displeasure and in the other the overtaken driver didn't. But I fail to see the rationale that some follow to find it excusable when a driver has the chance to win a race, and inexcusable when a driver has the chance to win WDC. Either the potential benefits of a result justify the team orders in all cases, or they never do.

[thesham01]

Lewis is the one lying here. In Turkey, with about 10 laps to go, Lewis fuel account was far more critical than Jenson's as a consequence of harassing the leading Red Bulls whilst Jenson was saving fuel behind - this was proven after the race when the team took the unprecedented step of confirming that Jenson had more fuel in the car.

What happened with about 10 laps to go was that Lewis was given a fuel save instruction and so was Jenson, but it was unfair on Jenson because he was being asked to be limited to the more critical account of Hamilton - thereby not being given his chance to exerise his advantage.

If anything it was far more like the Hamilton-Rosberg except Button was only categorically told to hold position after he'd given the place back - which he did. So as for Hamilton saying he did what Vettel did. Err, not even close. Hamilton has obviously forgotten he won that race.

Given the place back? Good one.