136 replies to this topic

[Jordan44]

Anyone has a rundown of how on earth Hamilton managed to rack up so many points?

It definitely feels very weird he's come so close to a ban as he's one of the safest drivers around. I suspect a lot of dumb minor offences adding up 1pt + 1pt etc. Meanwhile actual dangerous driving probably isn't getting "rewarded" with any significantly different number of points. Might be time to review this system....

It does not help that we've had half a seasons worth of races in 3 months - when it would usually be 5 months.

This means the expiry time next year is disproportionality applied next year. The penalty he got in "Race 1" of 2020 won't expire until probably around "Race 10" of the 2021 season!!

Does this beg the question, should points expire based on number of starts since, and not a static time?

Edited by Jordan44, 27 September 2020 - 15:32.

[Goron3]

Thought this thread might be worth resurrection now that Hamilton is within 2 points of becoming the first driver to get a race ban (as far as I can remember).

He will only lose 2 points after Nov 17th, which would leave him back on 8 points. Bigger problem may be that it appears that with the delayed start to the season, he will still carry those points till next July.

This does leave an interesting possibility that if he manages to tie up the championship with 2 races to go, it might be worth deliberately getting extra points at the penultimate race to take him to 12. He would then sit out the last race and clear all the points before next season.

Only needs a couple of minor indiscretions, such a turning up late for the drivers briefing or crossing the pit exit white line.

Bet the FIA never thought of that scenario.

So he needs to avoid 2 points before Bahrain or 4 points before June next year.

[Myrvold]

Well, this just became irrelevant.

[ExFlagMan]

Well, this just became irrelevant.

 

Perhaps someone from Liberty or Bahrain read my post about Lewis engineering a way of cancelling all his penalty point by sitting out the final race and thought that is not going to look good if the 2020 champion sits out the race (and possibly stays away to avoid potential health risks), and had a quiet word in the stewards ears.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 27 September 2020 - 17:17.

[pdac]

Perhaps someone from Liberty or Bahrain read my post about Lewis engineering a way of cancelling all his penalty point by sitting out the final race and thought that is not going to look good if the 2020 champion sits out the race (and possibly stays away to avoid potential health risks), and had a quiet word in the stewards ears.

 

Nah, they just were waiting for the team to bribe them accept a fine.

[ExFlagMan]

Nah, they just were waiting for the team to bribe them accept a fine.

 

Maybe Merc offered more to remove the points than Horner offered for them to be kept 

[masa90]

I think the system is ok. Driver really has to try these days to gather up enough for race ban.

[Marklar]

Perhaps someone from Liberty or Bahrain read my post about Lewis engineering a way of cancelling all his penalty point by sitting out the final race and thought that is not going to look good if the 2020 champion sits out the race (and possibly stays away to avoid potential health risks), and had a quiet word in the stewards ears.

Still doable, collect 2 points in say Portugal, then 2 more points after his points from last year expire and then 2 points in Sakhir

maybe he should give Raghunathan a call. He knows how to get banned.

[Lights]

I think they've got this super license penalty system all wrong.

 

If I remember correctly, the idea for it originated in the early 2010's thanks to some drivers who were known as being reckless on track. And this wasn't because of them doing practice starts where they weren't supposed to, gaining an advantage by going off the track, or because they ignored blue flags or turned up late for a briefing.

 

No, it started because of them causing repeated dangerous accidents, or even unsportsmanlike and disrespectful behavior on track. That prompted discussions about how some of their offenses weren't penalized enough. Because the best the FIA could often do at that time after a a driver caused a dangerous accident and retired was to give that driver a grip drop for the next race, which sometimes ended up not penalizing them at all.

 

They did then ban Grosjean after Spa 2012, but some argued it was unwarranted and that he couldn't have known that he was on thin enough ice for it. I bet that was the moment where the FIA started thinking that if they'd have a penalty point system and he ticked all the boxes, the ban would have been indisputable.

 

Fast forward to yesterday, with a 6 time world champion on the brink of a race ban, due to practice starts in the wrong place that didn't hurt anyone or put anyone in danger; 2 racing incidents that were borderline his fault; for driving into a closed pitlane which was only slightly on himself; and a yellow flag incident, but even there the FIA wasn't doing their job correctly either. All we needed was one more unsafe pit release from his team, and him being late to a driver's briefing because someone was holding him up at the toilets, and the champion would be missing from the grid for a race.

 

The problem is that nobody at this moment thinks that Hamilton should sit out a race for reckless, dangerous, or unsportsmanlike behavior, which the penalty system was originally made for. He's made mistakes, yes, but he's also been penalized for all of them by grid drops, time penalties, costing him positions and podiums. And that should have been enough because ultimately most of his offenses weren't actually penalty-points worthy. The key here is that the FIA doesn't understand that some offenses don't warrant penalty points, plus that a driver's team can play a role in it too (until it suited them yesterday, suddenly!).

 

Of course, as long as a driver is clearly driving dangerously towards his competitors or marshals, or is clearly at fault for an accident with another driver, then penalty points are warranted. And had Hamilton gathered all his points that way, the consensus would probably be that he needs to sit out a race to cool off. 

 

The FIA however doesn't seem to understand the difference. And with them now backtracking on the penalty points in Russia because they didn't like the weird direction this was heading to with their champion, they've fundamentally proved that their own system failed. Now we just have to wait until they will realize this as well.

 

edit: words

Edited by Lights, 28 September 2020 - 15:35.

[Myrvold]

I feel like I might be slightly "alone" in feeling that this system is really good?

 

I have no problems seeing that if Hamilton gets a race ban, it looks like the system penalizes a driver for something it wasn't supposed to. But, the penalty points on the license isn't something you don't give if the driver has gotten a penalty because the driver has already had a penalty, but because it can penalize repeat offenders. I'm fine with drivers getting penalty points for punting others off/around. I'm also all for doing this whenever a driver is penalized for avoidable contact/causing a collision. The moment you start to grade the different collisions and give 0,1,2,3 penalty points, then it get's way to subjective, which just leads to tinfoilers getting another theory to blast out.

 

Also, while the practice starts Hamilton did didn't cause any significant danger in Sochi, you don't penalize the outcome, you penalize the breach of rules. If someone had hit a driver doing a practice start in an illegal place, that's not more or less breach of rules than a driver doing it and not getting hit. Same with running a red light. The pit is closed for a reason. While that particular situation didn't cause additional dangers, it is a major safety issue. Also, both these breaches shows either a lack of respect for the rules, or a lack of knowledge. Both are potentially dangerous, which should be easy penalty points as well.

 

In the specific situation of Hamilton, if he had known the rules like a driver should/Read all event notes, like a driver should/Made himself familiar with marshal-positions(light positions), like a driver should. He would likely only had 4 penalty points for the two situations with Albon, and this whole discussion wouldn't been a thing.

 

However, to repeat myself. We have seen it before that a driver that gets close to the magical 12 points, and the Federation of Incompetent Amateurs figure out they don't really want that driver to get a race ban, they suddenly give less penalty points than normal for equal situations. Just to magically avoid a race ban. When they feel there is just as well to get them out (A certain F2 driver comes to mind), then they will continue with the same amount of penalty points. So I really think this is a non-issue.

 

Anyway, it's quite easy to not get a race ban, or getting close to it. Know the rules and follow them.

[Anderis]

If someone like Hamilton gets close to getting a race ban- it shows how the system does not do the job it was intended to do. He's done nothing out of the ordinary in terms of unsportsmanlike, stupid or dangerous in the last 12 months. Just like the superlicence point system, if teels too arbitrary and too detached from its original goal and has a potential to hamper a completely wrong type of drivers. Like a bureaucrat who sets and enforces rules for the sake of having rules and to feel important, losing the bigger picture from his mind.

[ExFlagMan]

Does seem a bit bureaucratic to award the same penalty points for being late for the drivers briefing as for forcing another driver off the track.

 

Given the no of times they appear to ignore the latter I wonder what their reaction to the former would be.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 28 September 2020 - 15:29.

[Bleu]

Generally I think the system is good, but for the most blatant incidents three points is not enough in isolation. Think of Vettel at Baku 2017. You would need to make four infractions like that before getting banned.

 

I think the maximum should be increased to six but of course, anything from three to six should be given as sparingly as of now.

 

Here are the incidents there has been 3 penalty points. I give my verdict on those and which should have been more.

 

Maldonado - 2014 Bahrain - collision with Gutierrez

Clearly Maldonado's fault, but the crash was really more spectactular than the intent so I think 3 points is OK.

Ericsson - 2014 Italy - speeding under double yellows

In this kind of infraction I could see three points being the norm, causing further incident would then be worth more.

Maldonado - 2015 Malaysia - speeding under safety car

The previous applies to this as well.

Vettel - 2015 Canada - overtaking under red flag

He had quite a lot of speed there. This was quite close to the incident zone IIRC, so maybe 4 or 5 points.

Verstappen - 2015 Hungary - speeding under safety car

See above.

Räikkönen - 2015 Russia - collision with Bottas

Clearly Kimi's fault but not too malicious, 3 points is OK.

Kvyat - 2016 Russia - double collision with Vettel

Maybe two points each so 4.

Gutierrez - 2016 Belgium - Impeding Wehrlein (?)

Don't recall that incident too well, happened in the Kemmel straight IIRC.

Grosjean - 2017 China - speeding under double yellows

See earlier part of the post.

Palmer - 2017 China - speeding under double yellows

Ditto.

Vettel - 2017 Azerbaijan - Dangerous driving

The intent was stupid, so I put this one on 6 points.

Massa - 2017 Belgium - speeding under double yellows

See earlier

Räikkönen - 2017 Belgium - speeding under double yellows

Again.

Perez - 2017 Singapore - speeding under double yellows

And again.

Ericsson - 2018 China - speeding under double yellows

And again.

Stroll - 2018 Austria - ignoring blue flags

There was some team radio message behind this so I say this served right.

Hülkenberg - 2018 Belgium - start collision

Pretty awful mistake, I raise this to 5.

Perez - 2018 Singapore - collision with Sirotkin

Intentional contact, so 6 points.

Ocon - 2018 Brazil - collision with Verstappen

Ocon was a lap down but the collision itself wasn't that bad so I keep it in 3.

Vettel - 2019 Italy - Collision with Stroll

Basically this included dangerous return to the track and the collision so I put this one to 4.

Russell - 2020 Britain - speeding under double yellows

See earlier.

[kumo7]

I think they've got this super license penalty system all wrong.

 

If I remember correctly, the idea for it originated in the early 2010's thanks to some drivers who were known as being reckless on track. And this wasn't because of them doing practice starts where they weren't supposed to, gaining an advantage by going off the track, or because they ignored blue flags or turned up late for a briefing.

 

No, it started because of them causing repeated dangerous accidents, or even unsportsmanlike and disrespectful behavior on track. That prompted discussions about how some of their offenses weren't penalized enough. Because the best the FIA could often do at that time after a a driver caused a dangerous accident and retired was to give that driver a grip drop for the next race, which sometimes ended up not penalizing them at all.

 

They did then ban Grosjean after Spa 2012, but some argued it was unwarranted and that he couldn't have known that he was on thin enough ice for it. I bet that was the moment where the FIA started thinking that if they'd have a penalty point system and he ticked all the boxes, the ban would have been indisputable.

 

Fast forward to yesterday, with a 6 time world champion on the brink of a race ban, due to practice starts in the wrong place that didn't hurt anyone or put anyone in danger; 2 racing incidents that were borderline his fault; for driving into a closed pitlane which was only slightly on himself; and a yellow flag incident, but even there the FIA wasn't doing their job correctly either. All we needed was one more unsafe pit release from his team, and him being late to a driver's briefing because someone was holding him up at the toilets, and the champion would be missing from the grid for a race.

 

The problem is that nobody at this moment thinks that Hamilton should sit out a race for reckless, dangerous, or unsportsmanlike behavior, which the penalty system was originally made for. He's made mistakes, yes, but he's also been penalized for all of them by grid drops, time penalties, costing him positions and podiums. And that should have been enough because ultimately most of his offenses weren't actually penalty-points worthy. The key here is that the FIA doesn't understand that some offenses don't warrant penalty points, plus that a driver's team can play a role in it too (until it suited them yesterday, suddenly!).

 

Of course, as long as a driver is clearly driving dangerously towards his competitors or marshals, or is clearly at fault for an accident with another driver, then penalty points are warranted. And had Hamilton gathered all his points that way, the consensus would probably be that he needs to sit out a race to cool off. 

 

The FIA however doesn't seem to understand the difference. And with them now backtracking on the penalty points in Russia because they didn't like the weird direction this was heading to with their champion, they've fundamentally proved that their own system failed. Now we just have to wait until they will realize this as well.

 

edit: words

 

This.

[Dhillon]

----

Fast forward to yesterday, with a 6 time world champion on the brink of a race ban, due to practice starts in the wrong place that didn't hurt anyone or put anyone in danger;

----

edit: words

 

Same argument can be given for traffic rules violations. Overspeeding, Jumping a Signal, No fine or penalty point if no one is hurt ?

 

No one wants time penalties or race bans for drivers but monetary fines means nothing to teams.

[Pimpwerx]

I'm biased, but Lights is spot on. Let's just step back and think about this, irrespective of his place in the record books or championship standings.

 

Lewis Hamilton is in fear of receiving a race ban. Lewis bleeping Hamilton. When he retires from this sport, he will go down as not only one of the most talented drivers, but one of the most sportsmanlike racers on the grid. Someone who has largely avoided controversy on the track, and someone that other drivers know they can race against fairly (except poor Albon, but Lewis has owned up to his mistakes there). His rules infractions have been largely procedural. None of them performed dangerously, or with the intention of cheating. You can say Sochi was dangerous, but we at least saw him check his mirrors/peripherals multiple times before proceeding with his start. 

 

Are we enforcing Robert's Rules of Order in driving? Are penalty systems intended to be unreasonable and harsh, or are they intended to punish egregious behavior? Because we've seen repeated egregious behavior from some drivers that hasn't put them under nearly the same level of pressure. Guys who regularly end races with missing bits of bodywork, who apparently have passed the administrative protocols for being blockheads. IMO, there's a serious flaw in the system when one of the best to ever do it is facing a race ban, while far worse current drivers, and far dirtier past drivers, have never been under such a threat.

[AnR]

I'm biased, but Lights is spot on. Let's just step back and think about this, irrespective of his place in the record books or championship standings.

 

Lewis Hamilton is in fear of receiving a race ban. Lewis bleeping Hamilton. When he retires from this sport, he will go down as not only one of the most talented drivers, but one of the most sportsmanlike racers on the grid. Someone who has largely avoided controversy on the track, and someone that other drivers know they can race against fairly (except poor Albon, but Lewis has owned up to his mistakes there). His rules infractions have been largely procedural. None of them performed dangerously, or with the intention of cheating. You can say Sochi was dangerous, but we at least saw him check his mirrors/peripherals multiple times before proceeding with his start. 

 

Are we enforcing Robert's Rules of Order in driving? Are penalty systems intended to be unreasonable and harsh, or are they intended to punish egregious behavior? Because we've seen repeated egregious behavior from some drivers that hasn't put them under nearly the same level of pressure. Guys who regularly end races with missing bits of bodywork, who apparently have passed the administrative protocols for being blockheads. IMO, there's a serious flaw in the system when one of the best to ever do it is facing a race ban, while far worse current drivers, and far dirtier past drivers, have never been under such a threat.

 

Biased, it shouldn't matter who it is, just because you have had the best car for ages now and are cruising around at the front doesn't mean you can break rules.

 

FIA already bent over for Merc and removed the points?

[Fatgadget]

Biased, it shouldn't matter who it is, just because you have had the best car for ages now and are cruising around at the front doesn't mean you can break rules.

 

FIA already bent over for Merc and removed the points?

Lewis has earned the privilege having the best car on the grid. What has that got to do with the amount of penalty points he has racked  up thus far?

[AnR]

Lewis has earned the privilege having the best car on the grid. What has that got to do with the amount of penalty points he has racked  up thus far?

 

If you can't understand why you have fewer points and fewer battles when you are cruising around at the front in the best car for ages now I can't help you, sorry

[Fatgadget]

If you can't understand why you have fewer points and fewer battles when you are cruising around at the front in the best car for ages now I can't help you, sorry

Dont need your help then!

[pdac]

Same argument can be given for traffic rules violations. Overspeeding, Jumping a Signal, No fine or penalty point if no one is hurt ?

 

No one wants time penalties or race bans for drivers but monetary fines means nothing to teams.

 

But they come in useful when it's bonus time or salary review time for the senior FIA staff.

[pdac]

Biased, it shouldn't matter who it is, just because you have had the best car for ages now and are cruising around at the front doesn't mean you can break rules.

 

FIA already bent over for Merc and removed the points?

 

I don't think anyone really thinks that this was a breach of the regulations and he shouldn't be above penalties. But the broader issues is whether the points system is appropriate for this kind of offence. Whilst I applaud regulations that have a clearly defined penalty, I have to question the decision to choose to apply penalty points for something which may or may not be unsafe (depending on the circumstances) whilst at the same time not applying the system to events which are always unsafe.

[ARTGP]

If someone like Hamilton gets close to getting a race ban- it shows how the system does not do the job it was intended to do. He's done nothing out of the ordinary in terms of unsportsmanlike, stupid or dangerous in the last 12 months. Just like the superlicence point system, if teels too arbitrary and too detached from its original goal and has a potential to hamper a completely wrong type of drivers. Like a bureaucrat who sets and enforces rules for the sake of having rules and to feel important, losing the bigger picture from his mind.

 

Basically yeah.

 

That Hamilton is closer to a race ban (despite spending most of his time racing himself) than Vettel and Leclerc have been the last two years is a strange one  .

Edited by ARTGP, 29 September 2020 - 09:21.

[pitlanepalpatine]

I think the way the system  is being handled is perfectly fine since since the FIA has enough introspection to adjust when neccessary as they did at the weekend when the team took responsibility for the **** up but the system is doing exactly what it's meant to, which is highlighting that Merc as team are detiorating into dangerous levels of negligence and if they don't address it one of their drivers or staff might get hurt. Mercs strategy team seriously needs to find a balance between being asleep at the wheel and copying red bulls style but then making a mess of it. The problem here isn't the points system but Merc team ops and Toto needs to stop arguing and fix it.

[ARTGP]

I think the way the system  is being handled is perfectly fine since since the FIA has enough introspection to adjust when neccessary as they did at the weekend when the team took responsibility for the **** up but the system is doing exactly what it's meant to, which is highlighting that Merc as team are detiorating into dangerous levels of negligence and if they don't address it one of their drivers or staff might get hurt. Mercs strategy team seriously needs to find a balance between being asleep at the wheel and copying red bulls style but then making a mess of it. The problem here isn't the points system but Merc team ops and Toto needs to stop arguing and fix it.

 

Toto has been looking for a reduced role. That perhaps could explain the most recent lapses.  Missing Lauda wouldn't be helping either...

[noikeee]

I definitely agree they need to review how the penalty points are added up. Dangerous driving wheel to wheel is much much more relevant than slight technicalities like what Hamilton did this week in Russia. Okay you could legitimately argue that the rule is there for safety, just like ignoring yellow flags or entering a pitlane when it's closed or slightly speeding on the pitlane etc, so I agree those things should be worth a penalty point, but surely creating crashes at high speed by being reckless is many orders of magnitude worse than that and should be worth many more points.

What I'd do is keeping giving 1pt, never more than that, for these minor offences, but award anything from 2 to 6 points to drivers who cause crashes through dangerous driving. And then maybe raise the ban from 12 points to slightly more than that.

Oh and also make it so that the last 20 races is what counts, not the calendar year, so that this year's bizarre situation of lots of consecutive races is covered.

Edited by noikeee, 29 September 2020 - 09:43.

[ANF]

After eight years and a few months with penalty points, the system has finally produced a race suspension! F2 driver Amaury Cordeel received his twelfth penalty point after moving across on Olli Caldwell and causing a collision between T3 and T4 in Baku today, and he will not take part in the next round at Silverstone.

[SenorSjon]

After eight years and a few months with penalty points, the system has finally produced a race suspension! F2 driver Amaury Cordeel received his twelfth penalty point after moving across on Olli Caldwell and causing a collision between T3 and T4 in Baku today, and he will not take part in the next round at Silverstone.

We had someone racking it up earlier (that Indian driver a few years ago), but he was allowed to run the feature race because the penalty was 'for the next event'. As it was the last race of the season, the penalty wasn't taken.

[ANF]

We had someone racking it up earlier (that Indian driver a few years ago), but he was allowed to run the feature race because the penalty was 'for the next event'. As it was the last race of the season, the penalty wasn't taken.

Right, my bad! Mahaveer Raghunathan actually accrued 24 penalty points! So he did serve one race ban before he got enough points to serve a second ban. https://www.racefans...econd-ban-2019/

[William Hunt]

And Olli Caldwell is just 1 little point away from a ban (he is on 11 points, 12 is a ban)

But let's be honest: the system isn't working considering how few got a ban and... considering no one in F1 ever got to 12 pts, not even Mazepin with his dangerous moves

[scheivlak]

And Olli Caldwell is just 1 little point away from a ban (he is on 11 points, 12 is a ban)

But let's be honest: the system isn't working considering how few got a ban and... considering no one in F1 ever got to 12 pts, not even Mazepin with his dangerous moves

One could also say that the fact thast no one ever got into 12 points is a proof that the system works. 

[nivoglibina]

And Olli Caldwell is just 1 little point away from a ban (he is on 11 points, 12 is a ban)

But let's be honest: the system isn't working considering how few got a ban and... considering no one in F1 ever got to 12 pts, not even Mazepin with his dangerous moves

I agree that it is probably not working, as sometimes I feel that stewards become leniant towards drivers that are already close to the limit.

But what you can't measure is drivers who are closing in on 12 points might become more careful, so in that sense it might work.

The aim is to reduce incidents, not to ban drivers.

Edited by nivoglibina, 12 June 2022 - 21:55.

[PayasYouRace]

Thread title was in dire need of changing.

[SenorSjon]

One could also say that the fact thast no one ever got into 12 points is a proof that the system works. 

 

Usually stewards deal it out like candy when drivers are in the 0-6 ranges and later on get away with a lot more.

[William Hunt]

One could also say that the fact thast no one ever got into 12 points is a proof that the system works. 

 

Really, how come drivers like Mazepin (dangerous moves), Schumacher (8 crashed in 30 races), Latifi & Stroll (how many times has he tangled with other cars now?) have never reached it? Verstappen also deserved a race ban last year imho

Edited by William Hunt, 13 June 2022 - 12:18.

[Clatter]

One could also say that the fact thast no one ever got into 12 points is a proof that the system works.

Not so sure. We have seen how they can hand out penalty points like smarties until a driver gets close to the magic number, and they then start acting more leniently.

[William Hunt]

Not so sure. We have seen how they can hand out penalty points like smarties until a driver gets close to the magic number, and they then start acting more leniently.

 

Exactly: Cordeel & Caldwell already should have had their ban after Monaco.