156 replies to this topic

[f1fan1998]

I have just been at the track in Barcelona all day and to be there, the race was great. It ran well and the atmosphere was brilliant. The general fans seemed to be having a great time. Certainly talking to a few of them, the fans thought the race was excellent, easy to follow and good to watch.

To then come back to my hotel and see the "rate the GP" thread heavily critiquing the race, generally as a 0-1 out of 10 is a total surprise.

I believe, that the majority calling the race a poor race, simply are easily led. It makes me wonder who the pied piper is to you all? Is it David Croft? Martin Brundle? DC? Ben Edwards? Too many comments seem uninformed and happy to follow the leader.

What do you all want? Do you want hard Bridgestone tyres back, that provided genuinely dull racing? Shorter races, which are easier to follow?

In a nutshell, I am surprised.

[smitten]

Being at a race is completely different from watching on the Telly. As an event with Alonso winning,I bet it was awesome. Watching on the box trying to follow 4 pit stops for twenty drivers who were cruising round so they didn't run out of tyres was just disappointing.

[Sakae]

I have just been at the track in Barcelona all day and to be there, the race was great. It ran well and the atmosphere was brilliant. The general fans seemed to be having a great time. Certainly talking to a few of them, the fans thought the race was excellent, easy to follow and good to watch.

To then come back to my hotel and see the "rate the GP" thread heavily critiquing the race, generally as a 0-1 out of 10 is a total surprise.

I believe, that the majority calling the race a poor race, simply are easily led. It makes me wonder who the pied piper is to you all? Is it David Croft? Martin Brundle? DC? Ben Edwards? Too many comments seem uninformed and happy to follow the leader.

What do you all want? Do you want hard Bridgestone tyres back, that provided genuinely dull racing? Shorter races, which are easier to follow?

In a nutshell, I am surprised.

Should you decide one day to read whole tire thread, you might not be, unless you get confused by some of the responses.

[Fastcake]

Alonso won in front of a sea of his fans. I'm sure they'd say the race was almost great if it he had won Indy 05.

[f1fan1998]

That's the point. WHO is your pied piper? You had the TV to follow the race today with commentary, and stats. I had my eyes and ears. I didn't have a problem reading the race and positions.

Someone is telling the public that the tyre situation is a disaster. From a team perspective it is Red Bull bitch!ng because they aren't winning. That gets a lot of coverage and exposure, but it doesn't mean they are right.

[F1ultimate]

If you were an Alonso fan at the circuit then today's race couldn't have been any more glorious but for us others Kimi's pace was lacking, Vettel was managing tyres and there were simply no battles in the mid field. Bahrain was a snore with Vettel dominating at the front but there was plenty of racing in the midfield.

Today the the average gap between top ten drivers was at some point 10 seconds which engineers constantly telling drivers to mind their front left tyre. Rosberg was told to fight DiResta but asked whether it could harm his tyres. Racing is being held back by the tyres.

[Sausage]

Welcome back to the internet

[Seanspeed]

Welcome back to the internet

Pretty much.

That Rate the Race thread has been overrun by an agenda, definitely. Past races have been similar to this and still gotten mostly good votes.

[SpaMaster]

I have just been at the track in Barcelona all day and to be there, the race was great. It ran well and the atmosphere was brilliant. The general fans seemed to be having a great time. Certainly talking to a few of them, the fans thought the race was excellent, easy to follow and good to watch.

To then come back to my hotel and see the "rate the GP" thread heavily critiquing the race, generally as a 0-1 out of 10 is a total surprise.

I believe, that the majority calling the race a poor race, simply are easily led. It makes me wonder who the pied piper is to you all? Is it David Croft? Martin Brundle? DC? Ben Edwards? Too many comments seem uninformed and happy to follow the leader.

What do you all want? Do you want hard Bridgestone tyres back, that provided genuinely dull racing? Shorter races, which are easier to follow?

In a nutshell, I am surprised.

I watched on TV. I am still surprised by the reaction here. I am pretty sure this won't be the reaction from the mass viewers. The whining mainly comes from hardcore fans, a small section of the overall audience, and even those are just noisy. Even in that rating thread, you would see lot of people silently voted 10, 9, 8, 7, etc. I think it has about one-third voting on 6 or above.

I remember the past Barcelona race. Absolute snooze-fests. You might as well skip it after first corner. And I was pleasantly surprised by the action today. You never this kind of criticism when all except one win since 1996 came from front row. People used to love the sight of the car ahead's gear-box for 66 laps!

[Fastcake]

That's the point. WHO is your pied piper? You had the TV to follow the race today with commentary, and stats. I had my eyes and ears. I didn't have a problem reading the race and positions.

It's not a case of being able to read a race, that's easy enough. It's whether or not the tyres today were simply too poor compared to the normal Pirelli's of the past couple of years.

Edited by Fastcake, 12 May 2013 - 19:05.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

I am afraid that heavy Lewis support -- disappointed with the results -- vented their frustration in that poll. Add some RBR fans gutted that Seb wasn't in the fight -- and voilà.

I stated elsewhere that for Barca standards this was an entertaining race and gave it a 7.

[Seanspeed]

I am afraid that heavy Lewis support -- disappointed with the results -- vented their frustration in that poll.

Guarantee thats a huge part of it.

[SpaMaster]

I am afraid that heavy Lewis support -- disappointed with the results -- vented their frustration in that poll. Add some RBR fans gutted that Seb wasn't in the fight -- and voilà.

I stated elsewhere that for Barca standards this was an entertaining race and gave it a 7.

Amen to that! It's hard to explain the results othewise.

[Skinnyguy]

I have just been at the track in Barcelona all day and to be there, the race was great. It ran well and the atmosphere was brilliant. The general fans seemed to be having a great time. Certainly talking to a few of them, the fans thought the race was excellent, easy to follow and good to watch.

Problem is that the race was NOT great. Top cars were spread away. The order amongst them became clear quite soon. And the midfield dissapointed to provide entertainment too.

I think you´ve been carried away by a great experience on the track itself.

[Muppetmad]

I have never complained on this forum about the Pirelli tyres, but I will today. I was infuriated by the race dynamic before the commentators even began winging about it - when Brundle said something along the lines of the race wasn't "the best", I vividly recall saying "That's an understatement".

When a world champion says in an F1 race that "I can't drive any slower", then honestly that says all that you need to know. The tyres were dreadful. Did it provide a little more action than during the Bridgestone years on this circuit? Sure. Did any of it mean anything? Honestly, no. When the drivers are nursing the tyres all race long, any semblance of a race goes out of the window.

Edit: ...and I'm not particularly fussed by the results, so don't tell me I'm a fanboy or anything like that. I'm a bit disappointed Hamilton finished so far down, but I'm happy Alonso won in front of his home crowd, that was nice to see.

Edited by Muppetmad, 12 May 2013 - 19:15.

[Andy35]

I have just been at the track in Barcelona all day and to be there, the race was great. It ran well and the atmosphere was brilliant. The general fans seemed to be having a great time. Certainly talking to a few of them, the fans thought the race was excellent, easy to follow and good to watch.

To then come back to my hotel and see the "rate the GP" thread heavily critiquing the race, generally as a 0-1 out of 10 is a total surprise.

I believe, that the majority calling the race a poor race, simply are easily led. It makes me wonder who the pied piper is to you all? Is it David Croft? Martin Brundle? DC? Ben Edwards? Too many comments seem uninformed and happy to follow the leader.

What do you all want? Do you want hard Bridgestone tyres back, that provided genuinely dull racing? Shorter races, which are easier to follow?

In a nutshell, I am surprised.

You're like the guy who participated in an orgy and found it fantastic only to be amazed the people who watched it on video who found it poor, mainly blighted by the rubbers the participants were using, and cannot understand why.

[Risil]

I thought the cars looked slow round the corners. That was the starting point. Never really noticed it before although I know people have made the complaint in the past.

[SpaMaster]

Also, this may have a lot to do with Brundle cringing right from the pre-race show how it is bad to have 4-stops and he kept repeating that the whole race. The pied piper thing may have something to do with that as well. Even now, the thought of previous Barcelona dreads me so much that during the race, I thought is pretty ok to pit every 10 laps for this track. The skeptic in me wonder that somewhere in Barcelona today Todt and Bernie are giving party to the whole Pirelli team for doing the impossible at most-boring race track on the planet.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I completely switched off from this one for some reason, I watched up until the laps were Alonso took the lead and then I remember watching with about 10 laps to go. I was still sitting near the TV but I started reading a newspaper instead (EE you look to be in some trouble...).

It just didn't feel like I needed to pay attention? You need to see the first pitstop and the last one, everything in between is just laps?

[TheF1BOB]

Martin Brundle was crying when Hamilton was 15th so yeah...the Lewis Hamilton fanbase got angry.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

I have never complained on this forum about the Pirelli tyres, but I will today. I was infuriated by the race dynamic before the commentators even began winging about it - when Brundle said something along the lines of the race wasn't "the best", I vividly recall saying "That's an understatement".

When a world champion says in an F1 race that "I can't drive any slower", then honestly that says all that you need to know. The tyres were dreadful. Did it provide a little more action than during the Bridgestone years on this circuit? Sure. Did any of it mean anything? Honestly, no. When the drivers are nursing the tyres all race long, any semblance of a race goes out of the window.

Edit: ...and I'm not particularly fussed by the results, so don't tell me I'm a fanboy or anything like that. I'm a bit disappointed Hamilton finished so far down, but I'm happy Alonso won in front of his home crowd, that was nice to see.

Well, I happen to think that is a car related problem regarding tires -- not the other way around. Nico stopped only three times and finished respectable 6th. Lewis and the team will need to study what went wrong. Top 4 had three WDC in it......

[Risil]

When a world champion says in an F1 race that "I can't drive any slower", then honestly that says all that you need to know.

That was glorious. I mildly dislike Hamilton 95% of the time but the other 5% I really, really like him.

Somehow I doubt that particular highlight will make it onto FOM's end-of-year reel, though.

[repete]

I watched on TV. I am still surprised by the reaction here. I am pretty sure this won't be the reaction from the mass viewers. The whining mainly comes from hardcore fans, a small section of the overall audience, and even those are just noisy. Even in that rating thread, you would see lot of people silently voted 10, 9, 8, 7, etc. I think it has about one-third voting on 6 or above.

I remember the past Barcelona race. Absolute snooze-fests. You might as well skip it after first corner. And I was pleasantly surprised by the action today. You never this kind of criticism when all except one win since 1996 came from front row. People used to love the sight of the car ahead's gear-box for 66 laps!

The pre Pirelli barca races were bad, but the 2011 and 2012 races were not.

IMO Pirelli 2011 tires were the best. They should have just kept those around.

They just went too far this year, changed too much for no reason.

[Vesuvius]

I completely switched off from this one for some reason, I watched up until the laps were Alonso took the lead and then I remember watching with about 10 laps to go. I was still sitting near the TV but I started reading a newspaper instead (EE you look to be in some trouble...).

It just didn't feel like I needed to pay attention? You need to see the first pitstop and the last one, everything in between is just laps?

You described how F1 was before current pirelli, no action at all...wit current tyres there is lots of overtaking etc between first and last stop unlike the era 2000-2010 for example.

[Skinnyguy]

You described how F1 was before current pirelli, no action at all...wit current tyres there is lots of overtaking etc between first and last stop unlike the era 2000-2010 for example.

BTW, who was AGAIN the genious deciding to show like 6 replays of the start while a bunch of fast cars were following a Mercedes closely? It´s so stupid...

[Muppetmad]

Well, I happen to think that is a car related problem regarding tires -- not the other way around. Nico stopped only three times and finished respectable 6th. Lewis and the team will need to study what went wrong. Top 4 had three WDC in it......

That's a fair point, but that's one of only a number of things which made me cringe throughout this race. First off, Vettel was barely able to pull away from Bianchi after the first/second pit stop (can't remember which, there were too many...) because of his tyre conservation. Secondly, Button's fastest lap of the race was less than a tenth better than Chilton's. In combination with Hamilton's comment, and Rocky's message to Vettel that nothing matters until "the last five laps", I think it's fair to suggest that tyres played an overbearing role today.

Edited by Muppetmad, 12 May 2013 - 19:29.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You described how F1 was before current pirelli, no action at all...wit current tyres there is lots of overtaking etc between first and last stop unlike the era 2000-2010 for example.

There was less action mid-race in the old days, but it had consequence. Now it kind of doesn't matter until the final setting of the running order and you know who is where on tires and what the gaps are.

[Seanspeed]

It just didn't feel like I needed to pay attention? You need to see the first pitstop and the last one, everything in between is just laps?

Did you mean to post this in the NASCAR thread?

[Jamiednm]

I watched on BBC, there was one criticism of the tyres, towards the end of the race by DC.

It insults the intelligence of a lot of people on here to suggest that they can't make up their own mind and just follow what TV commentators say.

The fact is, the tyres were ridiculous, more so than usual. When viewers at home have the luxury of team radio and have their suspicions confirmed time and again that the drivers are driving well within the capabilities of the car because of the tyres, then its obvious that opinions will be formed about that. My opinion just happens to be that this race was more about the integrity of very unpredictable tyres than driver skills, team strategy and any of the other numerous components that make up an F1 car.

Pirelli have themselves admitted that they got it wrong and will address it.

So, my opinion differs considerably to the OP, but that doesn't mean I am a rat following the tune of some Pied Piper.

[Longtimefan]

I am afraid that heavy Lewis support -- disappointed with the results -- vented their frustration in that poll. Add some RBR fans gutted that Seb wasn't in the fight -- and voilà.

For some yes, I'm sure thats the case but not for all.

I personally rated it very low, I am not a Fan of Lewis nor Seb. I'm quite happy Alonso won, he deserved it after his run of bad luck recently but the race overall was dire and ruined by these abysmal Pirelli 'eggshell'^TM Tyres.

Edited by Longtimefan, 12 May 2013 - 19:35.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Did you mean to post this in the NASCAR thread?

It's getting that way

I find the average Indycar race requires more paying attention to, to keep track of the fuel and tire strategies.

[Sakae]

I have to admit this, but I went in the middle of race to do dishes, make coffee, and drink it away from the screen.

[Risil]

IMO Pirelli 2011 tires were the best. They should have just kept those around.

You've got to keep changing them though, otherwise the teams figure out how to make them last and you might as well not have bothered in the first place.

That's why tyre wars are preferable, the constant development necessary to keep ahead means the engineers and drivers are always disorientated.

[Vesuvius]

I have to admit this, but I went in the middle of race to do dishes, make coffee, and drink it away from the screen.

Sounds like 2000-2010, actually 2002&2004 there was no need to watch the races at all as the winner was known before the race...if you don't like overtaking and close battle on track then you are following wrong sport and should watch rally instead. Barcelona has always been the most or among the most boring race to watch in F1...thanks to current pirelli tyres there is at least some action happening and not just driving behind other cars withoit a chance to do anything.

Edited by Vesuvius, 12 May 2013 - 19:50.

[Sakae]

Sounds like 2000-2010, actually 2002&2004 there was no need to watch the races at all as the winner was known before the race...if you don't like overtaking and close battle on track then you are following wrong sport and should watch rally instead.

I do not consider "overtaking" as a governing element whether a race is, or isn't interesting, which is probably why I am not watching anymore NASCAR.

[doc83]

Probably a lot of people are disappointed that they pretty much lost one day of racing that has always been a very important part of F1 weekends – Saturday qualifying.

[TheThirdTenor1]

When a world champion says in an F1 race that "I can't drive any slower", then honestly that says all that you need to know.

Didn't he say exactly the same thing in Valencia 2 years back?

[Jimisgod]

I remember India last year. Everyone whinged about cheese tyres all year moan moan moan moan. So we come to India and we have tyres equivalent to the Bridgestones of old and... it's the worst race of the year.

[redreni]

The "pied pipers" are ex-F1 driver pundits who find themselves looking at onboard footage and saying things like (as Coulthard did today on the BBC) "Has Kimi got a problem? It looks like he's coasting" before realising he is not coasting into retirement but trying to get through a stint on the tyres without destroying them. People like Villeneuve and Christian Danner and David Coulthard and Martin Brundle do seem to be genuinely shocked by how careful the drivers are having to be to get decent pace out of the tyres. It's true that the internet complainers, especially those on the official tyre-whinge thread (where you can't talk sensibly about this without being shouted down), are mainly band-wagon-hangers-on who don't even fully understand why they're angry. But I don't think the views of those who drove F1 in the 90s and 00s can be dismissed out of hand.

The fact is, notwithstanding how extremely gently and carefully they have to drive, the current F1 drivers are getting decent pace out of their cars and tyres. Just look at the times and you'll see the races are being completed in comparable times to previous seasons, and more quickly than when we had Bridgestones. And if you look at which drivers are complaining the most - Webber, Vettel, Hamilton - these guys are the ones who are suffering because performance is being limited by a spec component rather than by the downforce and aero efficiency of the car. And if performance was more car-limited and less tyre-limited, they're the guys who would be at the front. So although it might look very odd, and not very "F1" to a former driver, actually as fans we're seeing the cars go just as fast, we're seeing the drivers tested just as much (albeit in a different way) and we're seeing just as competitive racing as ever.

The only thing I would say is that, when cars with more than a four or five lap difference in tyre-age end up on the same bit of road, they're like ships passing in the night under the current format of racing. You can see why people who are expecting the cars to race each other in those circumstances are disappointed. You can see, for example, why the casual viewer who saw Alonso passing Raikkonnen for the win on the straight with no resistance, might be left with a slightly empty feeling. Even though anyone who's paying attention knows Alonso was only ever behind him because he made an extra pitstop, and for the same reason he had enough tyre perfomance to make Raikkonnen utterly defenceless. And anyone who's thought about it for a couple of minutes wil also have worked out that if the tyres were more durable everone would run the same strategy and you wouldn't have seen Alonso overake Raikkonnen at all, because he would never have been behind him.

That's where the commentators and pundits need to stop moaning and rise to the occasion and enlighten and inform the viewer - there are still interesting and close battles in F1, but sometimes you have to look on the timing screens to find them, because the cars might be 15 seconds apart but on different strategies, meaning they'll be together in the last 2 laps. The commentators need to be better at spotting those battles and letting us know what the gaps are etc. Not just looking at a picture of a motorway-overtake of one car by another where the two cars aren't even racing each other realistically, and trying to pretend it's exciting. To be fair to Ben Edwards, he did sport the Di Resta/Rosberg battle unfolding and did quite a good job of focusing on that rather than on the irrlevant and predictable motorway-overtakes near the end of the race.

[prty]

Hamilton and Vettel doing bad, Kimi had a chance to win but it was Alonso who beat him... combine all that, accounts for a lot of low ratings ;)

[robefc]

I find it very difficult to disassociate how a race goes for Lewis and how good I think a race is from a neutral perspective.

I mean a couple of races ago I remember thinking surely it's a good thing that at the start of the race we're not sure what strategies different drivers are going to employ or who is going to be quickest (was it China, where there were a lot of complaints about lack of running in Q3 but it set up much more intrigue for the race?). And when Vettel was chasing Lewis I thought well that's the aim of different strategies, to have them converge within 2/10ths at the end.

On the other hand the cars don't seem to me racing each other on track at all at the moment except at the start, as someone pointed out in the tyre thread they may as well all race on different days and do a time trial.

When it comes to comparing to past years with snoozefests at barcelona or monaco I guess if Lewis is on pole then I like the certainty that poleman wins (!) but also there's a feeling that best car/driver combo wins the race. Now it feels like whoever flukes into getting the tyres to work wins and by a big margin.

On the other hand, that uncertainty combined with more teams/drivers competing and winning is probably a good thing for most neutrals.

Edited by robefc, 12 May 2013 - 20:27.

[fdspd]

I agree with Will Buxton's view that the field got stretched today because Ferrari took the race by the horns and committed to a 4 stop very early. Almost everyone else were trying to make the 3-stopper work by driving to a delta, but the tyres were just not good enough for that. I'm sure we would've seen a more interesting race had everyone done a 4-stopper right from the start.

[robefc]

Didn't he say exactly the same thing in Valencia 2 years back?

Yep, I thought it was hilarious when EJ said, 'when ahve you ever heard an F1 driver say that before' - I thought he was being sarcastic at first but he was actually using to back up a point about drivers having to drive slower now!

[Haribo]

I think for me that a race with some people doing 2 stops and some doing 3 is the sweet spot. It makes the live timing screen (when it's actually bloody working) rattle around like a fruit machine otherwise and it can make it difficult to follow. I didn't enjoy the race today, but I watched it on BBC so didn't hear Brundle criticising the tyres. But I feel that 4 stops is too many and the race felt loooooong today

Edited by Haribo, 12 May 2013 - 20:55.

[Ross Stonefeld]

btw I totally thought this thread was going to be about Lauda.

[Risil]

I totally endorse threads opaquely named after spooky European folk tales.

Edited by Risil, 12 May 2013 - 20:37.

[ardbeg]

You're like the guy who participated in an orgy and found it fantastic only to be amazed the people who watched it on video who found it poor, mainly blighted by the rubbers the participants were using, and cannot understand why.

Yes, I regret I did not have an orgy instead as well. The race was kind of semi interesting, but only in theory since it basically only involved to wait and see if Kimi would make his 3 stop strategy work. Then it was almost a bit exciting to see if any of the top cars would fall through the tires and be forced to make an extra emergency pit stips with 3 to go.

I am all for tyres that degrades and drop in lap time, but it must be possible to make them less sensitive. Make them stand up against brutal handling and a "push poush push" from the pits. Or remove the pit communication and leave the drivers alone with the decisions on how to drive. Or keep the communication channel between the pit and the drivers open. It is the pit crew that is running the races now, not the drivers. Yes, the drivers have to execute the plan, but speed, brake points and kers are all remote controlled from the pits.

It's a form of racing, it is genuine team racing I suppose, but they should not try to make us believe that the drivers are going for it. We don't buy it. They save. The drivers. They save tires, fuel, excitement... The good driver drives the laptimes relayed to him from the pits. Not faster, even if he can, and not slower.

The race was boring, there is no way around that. The result made some people happy, but the televised images from the race did not do much to enhance this Sunday afternoon.

[Lotusseven]

We all have our views (eyes) and opinions (thoughts) of things in this world. But today I was very disappointed of the tyres, they ruin the race for teams and drivers. I don´t think about if it´s entertaining for the audience perhaps I would do that ? I might be unusual in this case but I rather prefer a dull race without this tyres as desides the outcome of a race for many teams and drivers than a entertaining one for me. I don´t get any points, but the teams and drivers does as you know.

It´s much more entertaining to be happy for your favorite team/driver reach the finish line and get a point or more, than many overtakings (71 overtakings Spanish GP 2013) .

Edited by Lotusseven, 12 May 2013 - 20:52.

[Coral]

Well I thought it was one of the worst, most frustrating races I have ever seen in my life. I could not believe what I was seeing, I was gobsmacked by how bad it was. The Mercedes' performance for starters...I had no idea it would be as bad as this...by the time Lewis had been passed by Maldonado (who qualified 17th and had had a drive-through) I was sitting there with my head in my hands. Poor Nico fared better but it was painful to see him lose five places in succession. And Vettel couldn't pull away from a Marussia. And Massa finished ahead of Vettel. And the drivers were going so.......dead......slow. And qualifying has now been rendered practically meaningless. Apart from Ferrari and Lotus, the other teams may as well forego Q3 and start on the primes. What a sad state of affairs.

I don't like what F1 has become. To be honest today's race was the first one for a long time where I did not really care who won. There was little or no excitement. The actual result did not bother me as I would be happy with either Alonso or Kimi winning the WDC...but...I want to see racing, not tyre preservation. I want to see drivers pushing, attacking each other, hunting each other down, setting fastest lap after fastest lap. No chance of that now...it's all "look after your tyres". How fed up am I with that phrase.

Some people say that these tyres are good because they make the races unpredictable. But I don't want unpredictability...I want to see the top drivers fighting it out. I couldn't care less about underdogs. The fact that a Red Bull could not pull away from a lapped Marussia solely because of the tyres was embarrassing. Massa finished in front of Vettel not because he is the superior driver, but because of the tyres. This is not right!

Someone mentioned the 1996 season...how can anyone not think the 1996 season was fantastic! I have never been as nervous before any motor race than I was before the last race in 1996...when Damon crossed the line Murray Walker had a lump in his throat...and I was in floods of tears! Ahh, Sleepless in Suzuka...that was unforgettable. Those were the days. sadly long gone...

[pingu666]

I do not consider "overtaking" as a governing element whether a race is, or isn't interesting, which is probably why I am not watching anymore NASCAR.

theres actually less passing in nascar than f1 now, imo. and the driver has to use skill to get past, no drs...

i can see how the race was different from a grandstand point of view, but it was pretty dull on telly. lewis being so slow didnt help admitidly, but it just was flat and dull really :\