76 replies to this topic

[mongo580]

Hi all,

How would this work?
How about just one set of durable tyres for Qualifying that need to last Q1,2 & 3? Then each car has 10 sets of dry tyres for race day? Might mix it up a bit?
Maybe a set of Bridgestones for Saturday. Pirelli for Sunday?

Just a thought.

Me.

[chrcol]

The best quali rules were before they banned fuelling.

The grid got mixed up with people starting on different loads of fuel. I really really really liked the 2000-2008 era. Pinnacle for the sport. Gone downhill sharply since.

[ardbeg]

Hi all,

How would this work?
How about just one set of durable tyres for Qualifying that need to last Q1,2 & 3? Then each car has 10 sets of dry tyres for race day? Might mix it up a bit?
Maybe a set of Bridgestones for Saturday. Pirelli for Sunday?

Just a thought.

Me.

Extra set of tires for Q3 (can not be used in the race) and start on whatever tires you want, regardless of what you qualified with.
Would solve it.

[corf]

The best quali rules were before they banned fuelling.

The grid got mixed up with people starting on different loads of fuel. I really really really liked the 2000-2008 era. Pinnacle for the sport. Gone downhill sharply since.

Where as I thought it was the worst era, essentially each race was 3 sprints with the only overtaking happen ending during pit stops, it was terrible viewing.

Qualifying is ok now it's just Pirelli have gone too far with the tyres.

[pingu666]

get rid of the start on your qualy tyres, that rule hasn't worked at all

[Boxerevo]

get rid of the start on your qualy tyres, that rule hasn't worked at all

I don't like it too.

Qualifying tyres back,just for the fun on saturdays.

Someone knows how it was on 1983-1993 ? Senna-Prost-Mansell eras...

[Cool Beans]

[Kingshark]

Don't force the top 10 to start on the tyres they qualified on. That's the reason to why Q3 is often so boring.

[Masenco]

Where as I thought it was the worst era, essentially each race was 3 sprints with the only overtaking happen ending during pit stops, it was terrible viewing.

Qualifying is ok now it's just Pirelli have gone too far with the tyres.

Agreed there was less overtaking, but whatever overtaking their was was 100x better than what we have now. Remember kimi & lewis spa 2008? Battles like that are not possible on these current tires

[TheThirdTenor1]

Agreed there was less overtaking, but whatever overtaking their was was 100x better than what we have now. Remember kimi & lewis spa 2008? Battles like that are not possible on these current tires

Well that battle was only made possible by the rain.

But i guess you missed some of the midfield battles in Bahrain or Vettel vs Webber in Malaysia.

[noikeee]

Extra set of tires for Q3 (can not be used in the race) and start on whatever tires you want, regardless of what you qualified with.
Would solve it.

This. I'd go a slight step forward and completely separate tyre allocation from qualifying to racing.

The theory behind the current rules is that some people will prefer to sacrifice qualy for the race, others won't, and that'll mix up the strategies and the pecking order. However that's particularly unnecessary at the moment - the cars as they are, some are much much better in qualy than in the race and vice-versa, notably the Merc and the Lotus. The pecking order will naturally be different from Saturday to Sunday without the need for these extra variables, which ruins the show on Saturday as drivers are scared of going for it on qualy laps.

Even if the pecking order wouldn't change much from qualy to race, I still think it's an unnecessary gimmick - there's still a wide array of tyre strategies to use in the race regardless of any qualifying compromises.

[Cavani]

perfect response to all tyres threads . i mean "would u buy pirelli tyres ? " seriously ?

[Diablobb81]

perfect response to all tyres threads . i mean "would u buy pirelli tyres ? " seriously ?

No, it's not. The discussion about the stupid Q3 tire rules have been going on forever.

[redreni]

The current rules rob the fans. I don't know why anyone but Merc, RBR and Ferrari even run in Q3 - the advantage of running 3-lap newer tyres in the first stint is more than enough to gain you back what you lose by not running, either by using your better tyres to overtake the cars ahead, or by running a longer first stint and reaping the benefits later on.

Could be solved in many ways. Extra tyres for Q3 is one obvious solution, but not unreasonably Pirelli would want to be paid extra for that. If F1 is too tight to cough up, they should at least say you don't have to start the race on the tyre you qualify on. That at least would take away part of the penalty a team like Force India or Sauber has to pay if they try to run in Q3 - namely that they end up starting one place or no places higher than they would have done if they hadn't run, yet they are forced to start on worn tyres.

I don't see the logic in F1 being tight about bringing 40 extra tyres to each event, though. They can't afford not to, in my opinion. They're robbing the fans of a show on Saturday.

It would also be interesting to see if the pecking order changed between Q2 and Q3, as assuming Pirelli only brought 10 sets of Q3 rubber to the event, the Q3 tyres could not be given to the teams until the Q2 result was known, meaning the teams wouldn't have any chance to cure them or do anything to them. They would just have time to adjust the pressures and fit them to the car, not much more. I wonder if this restriction would hurt some teams more than others?

[Clatter]

The current rules rob the fans. I don't know why anyone but Merc, RBR and Ferrari even run in Q3 - the advantage of running 3-lap newer tyres in the first stint is more than enough to gain you back what you lose by not running, either by using your better tyres to overtake the cars ahead, or by running a longer first stint and reaping the benefits later on.

Could be solved in many ways. Extra tyres for Q3 is one obvious solution, but not unreasonably Pirelli would want to be paid extra for that. If F1 is too tight to cough up, they should at least say you don't have to start the race on the tyre you qualify on. That at least would take away part of the penalty a team like Force India or Sauber has to pay if they try to run in Q3 - namely that they end up starting one place or no places higher than they would have done if they hadn't run, yet they are forced to start on worn tyres.

I don't see the logic in F1 being tight about bringing 40 extra tyres to each event, though. They can't afford not to, in my opinion. They're robbing the fans of a show on Saturday.

It would also be interesting to see if the pecking order changed between Q2 and Q3, as assuming Pirelli only brought 10 sets of Q3 rubber to the event, the Q3 tyres could not be given to the teams until the Q2 result was known, meaning the teams wouldn't have any chance to cure them or do anything to them. They would just have time to adjust the pressures and fit them to the car, not much more. I wonder if this restriction would hurt some teams more than others?

Teams have tried this, and really they haven't gained that advantage back.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Hi all,

How would this work?
How about just one set of durable tyres for Qualifying that need to last Q1,2 & 3? Then each car has 10 sets of dry tyres for race day? Might mix it up a bit?
Maybe a set of Bridgestones for Saturday. Pirelli for Sunday?

Just a thought.

Me.

There's absolutely no way on this planet that Bridgestone or any other company would come into F1 to only provide qualifying or race tyres.

[pingu666]

there used to be a difference on starting tyres, now there isn't. I'd scrap the must use 2 compound rule too, but still bring 2 tyre types.

[PurpleHam]

One extra set of the softer compound for Q3, a use them and lose them set, they are only for Q3.

Top 3 positions get to choose which tyre they start the race on.

This would mean everybody putting in their fastest times in Q3.

Lets all forward it to the FIA...

[Dunc]

Change qualifying rules back to those of the 1990s. No Q3, Q2, Q1, just one hour-long session. I've always hated single lap qualifying.

I also second the point on qualifying tyres.

[Fastcake]

get rid of the start on your qualy tyres, that rule hasn't worked at all

That's all we need. Once that rule is gone, qualifying will be perfect.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The best quali rules were before they banned fuelling.

The grid got mixed up with people starting on different loads of fuel. I really really really liked the 2000-2008 era. Pinnacle for the sport. Gone downhill sharply since.

2000-2008 was several versions of qualifying. Which one is the 'pinnacle' ?

[FNG]

I'd scrap the must use 2 compound rule too, but still bring 2 tyre types.

Bingo. The most ******** rule there is. Let the teams sort out their strategy themselves. I've been saying this for a long time. Let them "run what they brung"

[spacekid]

Hi all,

How would this work?
How about just one set of durable tyres for Qualifying that need to last Q1,2 & 3? Then each car has 10 sets of dry tyres for race day? Might mix it up a bit?
Maybe a set of Bridgestones for Saturday. Pirelli for Sunday?

Just a thought.

Me.

Mix what up a bit? Why the constant need to 'mix' things up?

I also don't understand why you would need 10 sets of dry tyres for the race, if 1 set can last perfectly well through 3 quali sessions.

I like the current quali format, as it very neatly deals with the issue of the track rubbering in during the hour. I don't like the start on the tyres you quali'd rule though, it seems an unnecessary contrivance.

[Sakae]

2000-2008 was several versions of qualifying. Which one is the 'pinnacle' ?

- during one hour logging fastest and perfect lap on fumes
- no Parc fermé restrictions whatsoever
- team's free choice of tires on Sunday for the race based on strategy (weather, grid position, track condition, etc.)

Edited by Sakae, 14 May 2013 - 17:10.

[LORDBYRON]

they should be allocated 1 set of tyres for each fp sessions and 2 for qualifying and then 4 for the race and keep the rest as it is

Edited by iii, 14 May 2013 - 18:09.

[Clatter]

Mix what up a bit? Why the constant need to 'mix' things up?

I also don't understand why you would need 10 sets of dry tyres for the race, if 1 set can last perfectly well through 3 quali sessions.

I like the current quali format, as it very neatly deals with the issue of the track rubbering in during the hour. I don't like the start on the tyres you quali'd rule though, it seems an unnecessary contrivance.

They don't get 10 sets for the race, they get six, 3 of each compound. And they have to last for both Q and the race.

[Ali_G]

Change qualifying rules back to those of the 1990s. No Q3, Q2, Q1, just one hour-long session. I've always hated single lap qualifying.

I also second the point on qualifying tyres.

Instead of twelve laps, give them 18 or even 21 laps.

Qualifying was originally changed due to a lack of action early in qual sessions. Giving drivers this amount of laps will almost guarantee action.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Not if the tires can't take it. And the knockout system is the best format they've had yet, all it needs is some adjusting. But it's better than the old hour sessions.

[Clatter]

Instead of twelve laps, give them 18 or even 21 laps.

Qualifying was originally changed due to a lack of action early in qual sessions. Giving drivers this amount of laps will almost guarantee action.

Not if the tyre allocation is not increased and if Parc Ferme rules prevent setup changes there would be little point just pounding the tarmac using up engine life. They might run a few more laps, but not a huge amount more and the top guys will likely just put in a banker lap and then wait until the track is near perfect.

[EthanM]

the only thing they can really do is to give some points out to say the top 3 in Quali as an incentive. The format is difficult to change when you have a whole cost saving system behind to support (engine/gearbox life, tyre sets, "quali" parts etc etc)

[Bleu]

- during one hour logging fastest and perfect lap on fumes
- no Parc fermé restrictions whatsoever
- team's free choice of tires on Sunday for the race based on strategy (weather, grid position, track condition, etc.)

Between 1997-2006 there were no free choice of tyres. The teams had to use same compound for the qualifying and the race, and they could not change compound mid-race. This was done so the tyre manufacturers would not bring qualifying tyres (during those 10 years, two had no tyre war).

[Sakae]

Between 1997-2006 there were no free choice of tyres. The teams had to use same compound for the qualifying and the race, and they could not change compound mid-race. This was done so the tyre manufacturers would not bring qualifying tyres (during those 10 years, two had no tyre war).

Agree, but one can dream...

[Sakae]

I think that current system is unfair and detrimental to Sunday race. Under normal circumstance all seems just fine, but life is not always like that, and track conditions during qualifying, small issues in the garage, or some slow driver can actually undermine whole team effort for full weekend. That doesn't sounds right. My preference is to give everybody as much chance as possible, including late recovery on Saturday, or on the grid just before the race based on ambient conditions in real time. This artificial, and arbitrary handicapping seems to go against competitive spirit, and which is why "knock-out" seems unfair, just as it is hard to understand Parc fermé restrictions. What that has to do who is the best in the race?

[Clatter]

I think that current system is unfair and detrimental to Sunday race. Under normal circumstance all seems just fine, but life is not always like that, and track conditions during qualifying, small issues in the garage, or some slow driver can actually undermine whole team effort for full weekend. That doesn't sounds right. My preference is to give everybody as much chance as possible, including late recovery on Saturday, or on the grid just before the race based on ambient conditions in real time. This artificial, and arbitrary handicapping seems to go against competitive spirit, and which is why "knock-out" seems unfair, just as it is hard to understand Parc fermé restrictions. What that has to do who is the best in the race?

There's a good argument to made about the possible detrimental effect, but you can't say it's unfair. They all know the rules going in and they all have the same chances. The point about track conditions is one of the things that made single lap Q so unfair (apart from the fact it was tedious).

[smitten]

And the knockout system is the best format they've had yet, all it needs is some adjusting. But it's better than the old hour sessions.

It's not. It's just TV friendlier.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think there's more action. People are nostalgic but the 1hr session wasn't a boxing match every two weeks. It might be better now with a much tighter grid, but too often back then a guy would set a lap no one could get close to and sometimes relatively early in the session.

[GSiebert]

I don't like it too.

Qualifying tyres back,just for the fun on saturdays.

Someone knows how it was on 1983-1993 ? Senna-Prost-Mansell eras...

Two 1-hour qualifying sessions, unlimited laps (but limited amount of qualifying tires). One hour quali session is the only true qualifying format, rest is a just a freakin show.

[Clatter]

It's not. It's just TV friendlier.

Yes it is. It's also the best system when sitting trackside.

[baddog]

I'm happy with the knockout.. but:

Give a completely separate set of tyres, so no-one is scared to do laps in all sessions.
Get rid of the stupid rule about starting on qualy tyres which leads people not doing their best lap possible.

[Clatter]

Two 1-hour qualifying sessions, unlimited laps (but limited amount of qualifying tires). One hour quali session is the only true qualifying format, rest is a just a freakin show.

Utter rubbish. People seem to forget that Q is only there to set the starting order.

[Clatter]

I'm happy with the knockout.. but:

Give a completely separate set of tyres, so no-one is scared to do laps in all sessions.
Get rid of the stupid rule about starting on qualy tyres which leads people not doing their best lap possible.

Agree. Those are the only tweaks required now. And if only one happens I'd take the latter.

[Dunc]

Not if the tyre allocation is not increased and if Parc Ferme rules prevent setup changes there would be little point just pounding the tarmac using up engine life. They might run a few more laps, but not a huge amount more and the top guys will likely just put in a banker lap and then wait until the track is near perfect.

Should have added, get rid of parc ferme rules and let the teams have qualifying tyres plus a free choice during the race. If they want to do the whole thing on supersofts, let them.

[tifosi]

I don't like it too.

Qualifying tyres back,just for the fun on saturdays.

Someone knows how it was on 1983-1993 ? Senna-Prost-Mansell eras...

Awww, the great days of qualifying. Two days, pretty much anything goes!

[king_crud]

the old days of two one hour qualifying sessions was terrible. Most of the time the track was empty except for a Minardi or Larrousse getting some TV coverage, then you got maybe 15 mins at the end where everyone was on the track. And if the session on Friday had faster track conditions or it rained on Saturday then forget seeing pretty muc anything happen on Saturday.

I've got rose coloured glasses for the old days, but those qualifying session were crap. If we had the open conditions of qualifying tyres and engines in todays format I'd be happy.

[SenorSjon]

I was happy when we lost the friday afternoon Q.
I was very unhappy when we lost the 1 hr, 12 lap format.

That 12 lap one was still the best. The climax near the end is so much better than current qualifying. Yes, sometimes the pole time was unreachable, but I can absolutely remember none of the post 12 lap Q sessions. Stupid thing was, they wanted to stop Ferrari getting pole all the time, so they changed it. But you had better qualifiers back then with better one lap speed (Williams-BMW for instance).

[Fastcake]

I was happy when we lost the friday afternoon Q.
I was very unhappy when we lost the 1 hr, 12 lap format.

That 12 lap one was still the best. The climax near the end is so much better than current qualifying. Yes, sometimes the pole time was unreachable, but I can absolutely remember none of the post 12 lap Q sessions. Stupid thing was, they wanted to stop Ferrari getting pole all the time, so they changed it. But you had better qualifiers back then with better one lap speed (Williams-BMW for instance).

And how does changing the qualifying format from 12 lap to the present prevent anyone setting faster times?

[Anderis]

Perhaps this is be an idea that many of you will not like, but this is what I would love to see.

Q1: 10 minutes long, only one lap-time allowed, 17 best drivers to Q2
Q2: 8 minutes long, only one lap-time allowed, 12 best drivers to Q3
Q3: 7 minutes long, only one lap-time allowed, 6 best drivers to Q4
Q4: 5 minutes long, only one lap time allowed, all of sectors times being shown live on TV screen (with only 6 drivers they can afford that)

Get rid off the rule that you need to start on the same tyre on which you set your best lap time.

I would love to see this. Only one quick lap for each part of the qualifying. We would see who could handle the pressure of only one timed lap. Why would qualifying need to be comfortable for drivers with this 1 hour, 12 laps format? Let's give them a challenge. Perhaps more surprising results, driver makes a mistake on his only run and he is knocked-out. Bigger penalties for impending to ensure nobody is doing it on purpose. If you're afraid of traffic, you can always go for your lap time right with the start of the session. If you wait for the end, it's your own risk. I guess emotions at the end of the Q3 and Q4 would be massive. And you would know when they are coming so you would get your adrenaline early enough to follow the outcome with the biggest possible attention.

[anbeck]

the old days of two one hour qualifying sessions was terrible.

I was at the track for the Saturday session of the qualy for the Nürburgring race back in 1995 (don't remember if that was the "Europe" or "Luxemburg" year). It was a total washout, and there was no chance that anybody could improve their friday times, so I got soaked pretty much in vain. I think there was another one or two similar weekends, which is why they got rid off Friday qualy.

Then I remember plenty of Saturday sessions with top cars waiting for the final 12 or 10 minutes before even considering going out, especially when it was raining or when it was very hot. I have to admit that sometimes the old format was very exciting, either in the final couple of minutes, or because everybody was trying to beat a time set early on. But overall I think that the current format is the best one in terms of average on-track action, though maybe not in peak-"OMG"-moments.

The "start-on-qualy-rubber" rule is really hard to justify. Despite all the talking, it's hardly ever an advantage to start 11th and "be the first to have a tyre choice", unless the 11th on the grid is a top car (Webbo, etc.). But it does hardly add a lot of spice to a race. I'd much rather see the top 4 cars on the grid trying different starting tyres, something which I do not remember to have happened recently.

I wonder what would change if parc fermé rules were slightly loosened, opening up a limited number of parameters that can be changed before the race.

[Sakae]

And how does changing the qualifying format from 12 lap to the present prevent anyone setting faster times?

I think that's a wrong question, because faster lap is not an issue. In absence of track testing, risk exists that cars might not be ready to go out in Q1, and if they do, they are handicapped by whatever malfunction. In one hour format people had time to work on the car, and still remain competitive on Sunday. Who cares about some silly, arbitrary rules prior the race? I think we came to see all drivers in their best positions to take it on the track, instead starting in pits, or on wrong rubber, or somewhere down on the grid where junior takes a swipe at you just because he can get his name in headlines. Then there is the weather, and how many times already people who found the dry track moved on, as opposed to others who got stuck in wet trail, and for all practical purposes are thus also handicapped for the race. To me it doesn't make any sense. I want to see the race, and all guys in points in their best on Sunday line up, ready to kick dust at 14:00.

One hour quali format might have been often wait-and-see time, but teams watched, waited, and then furor - will Schumacher get P1 in last dying seconds? I have not experienced such tension for many, many years, and I miss that. What we have instead is this guy Alonso telling us, that quali is not important anymore. Well, thank you very much then.

Edited by Sakae, 16 May 2013 - 20:08.

[mattferg]

I like qualifying atm, I find it exciting, but the "use quali tyres for race start" rule ruins it.