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Has F1 gone 'backwards'?


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#1 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:01

This is not a Pirelli bashing thread. They are just doing what the FIA has instructed them to do; perhaps not as extreme as has been the case but still an FIA objective.


If these modern F1 cars were not restricted by the tyres, I wonder how much faster they could really go.

Case in point:

2004 Spanish Grand Prix; 66 laps; 1:27:32.841

2013 Spanish Grand Prix; 66 laps; 1:39:16.596

That is a 12 minute difference over the same track over the same amount of lap! 12 minutes is a huge difference.

I know there were some corner changes (not chicane towards the end etc) and V10 engines etc, but it got me thinking; if a tyre war was suddenly introduced in F1, would see see lap times tumble to the extent that races could finish some 10 minutes earlier.....?

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 14 May 2013 - 09:43.


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#2 Sin

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:03

don't they have like different engines too? I dont think the cars being slower has to do with tyres as much o.o

#3 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:07

don't they have like different engines too? I dont think the cars being slower has to do with tyres as much o.o


Yeh they have V8s now which have to last 2 or 3 races, no refuelling, different aero regs too.

#4 kar

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:09

THe biggest difference is tyres. Even with grooved tyres, 2004 you saw Bridgestone produce epic tyres and Ferrari's underbody aero was years ahead of everyone at the time. Plus near 1000 bhp screaming V10s. Oh and traction control, how quickly we forget about that?

Maybe not a vintage era for racing but from a technical point of view, (groove on the tyres aside) it was F1 at its peak.

*Edit* Just found this vid, the F2004 on slicks! Listen to the engine omg!

Edited by kar, 14 May 2013 - 09:12.


#5 prty

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:26

They didn't have the chicane in 2004 though. I think 2007 was the first year with it.
But yea they should bring back V10's with no rev limit. The rev limit is one of the reasons for few overtakings.

Edited by prty, 14 May 2013 - 09:27.


#6 dau

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:29

Some more data:

2006: 66 laps, 1:26:21.759, avg. lap 1:17.797 [Michelin,Bridgestone]
2007: 65 laps, 1:31:36.230, avg. lap 1:23.700 [Bridgestone] (chicane added, rev limit 19k)
2008: 66 laps, 1:38:19.051, avg lap 1:28.543 [Bridgestone] (TC banned)
2009: 66 laps, 1:37:19.202, avg. lap 1:27.704 [Bridgestone] (aero reduced, slicks reintroduced)

2010: 66 laps, 1:35:44.101, avg. lap 1:26.720 [Bridgestone] (refueling banned, rev limit 18k, min weight raised to 620kg)
2011: 66 laps, 1:39:03.301, avg. lap 1:28.825 [Pirelli] (DDD banned, DRS introduced, min weight 640kg)
2012: 66 laps, 1:39:09.145, avg. lap 1:29.174 [Pirelli] (EBD banned)
2013: 66 laps, 1:39:16.596, avg. lap 1:29.087 [Pirelli] (min weight 642 kg)

There were SCs in 2008 and 2009. Average lap time calculated after deducting time spent in pits.

And just for fun, the number of overtakes each year, taken from ClipTheApex:

2006: 7
2007: 5
2008: 2
2009: 2
2010: 11
2011: 90
2012: 51
2013: 71

#7 Richard T

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:43

Some more data:

And just for fun, the number of overtakes each year, taken from ClipTheApex:

2006: 7
2007: 5
2008: 2
2009: 2
2010: 11
2011: 90
2012: 51
2013: 71


Haha wow thats an amazing difference!

I watched some onboard movies from 2006 and 2012. Anticipated the time difference from turn 12 (180 degree right hander) to start/finish to be around 6 seconds with and without the chicane

#8 redreni

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:15

Haha wow thats an amazing difference!

I watched some onboard movies from 2006 and 2012. Anticipated the time difference from turn 12 (180 degree right hander) to start/finish to be around 6 seconds with and without the chicane


It is an amazing difference, and it's worth pointing out that even if, as many people complain, 80% of the overtakes now aren't genuine, we're still getting far more genuine overtakes than we used to have!

#9 pingu666

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:34

I think the pirellis have decent pace, till they start to degrade, which will be after a lap roughly.
I'd like to see how a gp2 car on bs tyres would race vs current f1 :-)
or a hrt :-O

#10 schubacca

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 13:34

Some more data:

2006: 66 laps, 1:26:21.759, avg. lap 1:17.797 [Michelin,Bridgestone]
2007: 65 laps, 1:31:36.230, avg. lap 1:23.700 [Bridgestone] (chicane added, rev limit 19k)
2008: 66 laps, 1:38:19.051, avg lap 1:28.543 [Bridgestone] (TC banned)
2009: 66 laps, 1:37:19.202, avg. lap 1:27.704 [Bridgestone] (aero reduced, slicks reintroduced)

2010: 66 laps, 1:35:44.101, avg. lap 1:26.720 [Bridgestone] (refueling banned, rev limit 18k, min weight raised to 620kg)
2011: 66 laps, 1:39:03.301, avg. lap 1:28.825 [Pirelli] (DDD banned, DRS introduced, min weight 640kg)
2012: 66 laps, 1:39:09.145, avg. lap 1:29.174 [Pirelli] (EBD banned)
2013: 66 laps, 1:39:16.596, avg. lap 1:29.087 [Pirelli] (min weight 642 kg)

There were SCs in 2008 and 2009. Average lap time calculated after deducting time spent in pits.

And just for fun, the number of overtakes each year, taken from ClipTheApex:

2006: 7
2007: 5
2008: 2
2009: 2
2010: 11
2011: 90
2012: 51
2013: 71


I would say that overtaking is cheapened massively by a) DRS and KERS b) limits on defensive driving...

#11 schubacca

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 13:36

It is an amazing difference, and it's worth pointing out that even if, as many people complain, 80% of the overtakes now aren't genuine, we're still getting far more genuine overtakes than we used to have!


Overtaking is so cheap nowadays it is not funny.

Watching LH and others cede position because of defense rules and DRS is sad.

#12 Ali_G

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 13:49

I have no great issue with KERS. It can be used tactically to both defend and to attack with. In that respect, it can only add to the spectacle.

DRS is truly awful though. And that final chicane is doing nothing but hampering overtaking at this stage.

Edited by Ali_G, 14 May 2013 - 13:49.


#13 RSNS

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 15:47

No F1 is not going backwards. DRS and KERS add to the show (it was immensely boring before they were introduced). Tires ought to last a bit more, though, and their usage more flexible. It should be possible to have, on the same race, strategies based on one, two, three or more stops, and even on no stops at all.

#14 Scotracer

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:10

2004 F1 cars were the fastest circuit racing vehicles of all time. A 2013 car is probably 4 seconds a lap slower than that but cannot run at that pace over a long stint due to tyre wear.

F1 is only going backwards with respect to BHP, Vmax and lap time...but the numbers alone don't really mean too much. It's about how exciting it is to watch. 2013 has been very good so far.



#15 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:20

2004 F1 cars were the fastest circuit racing vehicles of all time.


If you have to take a full season, yes. If you can choose a specific moment, latest 2005 cars were already faster despite the rule changes (harder tyres, FW higher and RW pushed forward, engine durability regs).

Which tell you the progress they were making back then. The years with no reg changes (like 2003-2004), you heard several times over a year that "This Minardi would have been on pole last year with this time" which is amazing.

#16 uffen

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:23

F1 changes. That's about all we can agree on. Sometimes the change is backwards, sometimes forwards. Backwards and forwards does not equate to better or worse, however.
Sometimes "backwards" is better (getting rid of driver aids) sometimes "backwards" is worse (reducing engine configs available).
Sometimes "forwards" is better (carbon fibre instead of aluminum), sometimes "forwards" is worse (DRS).
And of course, different people see backwards and forwards and better and worse completely differently.

#17 BoschKurve

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:38

F1 has gone backwards.

Porsche has already said F1 has no relevance to building road cars since the only thing that can be developed is aero. I don't see how this can be the pinnacle of motorsport when engines can't even be developed. Then when we finally do get a new engine, it's pretty much a spec design. Way to foster creativity.

#18 Atreiu

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:40

I don't think it went backwards in regards to lap times. Rule changes and tweaks are necessary from time to time to prevent escalating and dangerous speeds.
But it does show that simply provoking overtaking by the dozen will not make for a better or more respectable spectacle.

The modification to the last sector has not improved been an improvement for racing.

And I think they reached an excellent compromise between speed and racing in 2010. It was the mandatory pit stop that screwed things by forcing everyone into the same 1 stop strategy.



#19 Scotracer

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:47

If you have to take a full season, yes. If you can choose a specific moment, latest 2005 cars were already faster despite the rule changes (harder tyres, FW higher and RW pushed forward, engine durability regs).


Very likely. The swan-song of the V10s at Suzuka and China was quite a sight/sound to behold.



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#20 spacekid

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:59

No F1 is not going backwards. DRS and KERS add to the show (it was immensely boring before they were introduced). Tires ought to last a bit more, though, and their usage more flexible. It should be possible to have, on the same race, strategies based on one, two, three or more stops, and even on no stops at all.


I would say that F1 has gone backwards as it is now only concerned with putting on a 'show' rather than being a top flight motor race.

I used to find teams competing to build and run premier race cars hard very exciting to watch.

Unfortunately for me, your philosophy has won.

#21 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 17:41

F1 has gone backwards.

Porsche has already said F1 has no relevance to building road cars since the only thing that can be developed is aero. I don't see how this can be the pinnacle of motorsport when engines can't even be developed. Then when we finally do get a new engine, it's pretty much a spec design. Way to foster creativity.


Thus that raises the question: would you accept dramatic rule changes that take out much of the possibilities to do something with aero in return for more engine freedom?


I think that another, much overlooked fact in slowing down is briefly mentioned yet not fully explained. fuel rules and the effects that has on the cars. The cars weigh a lot more for at least the first half of the race if not more while in the fuel stop era the difference between full and empty fuel tank was much closer, hence the cars easier to set up and faster because of the possibility to remain in a fairly small weight related performance window,

Personally I don't think if is going backwards. If so it's recovering from a few staps too far. Particularly the aero. Cars have become so fast and so dependent on aero to be fast that it requires unheard of things to spice up the show again and prevent high speed prcessions liek Pirelli suggests the can arrange. Be serious: is DRS fair and providing equality in battles for position?
People out here keep on craving for those damned V10s of 1000 hp and more. I on the other hand wish a return to a situation with some 650 hp at the most, aero dramaticly reduced (bye by raised noses), Wider slick tyres, strict limitations on wing components and steel brakes again.
The cars will be a bit slower but the racing wil likely improve.


Henri




#22 Jacobss

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 17:43

All this talk about F1 being great in the 90s, yet people cant remember simple facts from like 8 years ago. :drunk:

We had refuelling, V10s, completely different aero rules and the last chicane didnt exist. How can anyone compare the times? Seriously, every topic with people talking about old times, i see they dont remember rules and circumstances. And that's in internet era, when everyone can download and see this races again. :confused: :stoned:

Edited by Jacobss, 14 May 2013 - 17:44.


#23 BigCHrome

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 17:48

It is an amazing difference, and it's worth pointing out that even if, as many people complain, 80% of the overtakes now aren't genuine, we're still getting far more genuine overtakes than we used to have!


There are 0 genuine overtakes now. It's either 1 car zooming past with DRS, or one car with tires that are in much, much better condition.

#24 Tsarwash

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:17

There are 0 genuine overtakes now. It's either 1 car zooming past with DRS, or one car with tires that are in much, much better condition.

What is a genuine overtake ? Is one car going past another because the engine is more powerful or the aero better balanced a genuine overtake ? Surely the only genuine overtakes that happen now are in spec karting.


#25 Risil

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:21

What is a genuine overtake ?


An overtake that's been endlessly anatomized and obsessed over because it was one of the two that happened in the race, of course. ;)

Edited by Risil, 14 May 2013 - 20:21.


#26 DrProzac

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:25

Overall it may not be going backwards, but for sure it's not going forward.

In terms of speed, power etc it has gone backwards.

In terms of sport, it has gone a bit backwards (bigger acceptance of team orders, and most notably DRS)

In terms of entertainment, it has gone kinda forward. But as someone noted, too easy overtaking is bad. I used to value proper defensive driving as much as proper overtaking. Now we get almost none of the former (due to DRS and the need to nurse the tires) and not much more of the latter.

Edited by DrProzac, 15 May 2013 - 16:45.


#27 lustigson

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:29

There are 0 genuine overtakes now. It's either 1 car zooming past with DRS, or one car with tires that are in much, much better condition.


If DRS overtakes are not genuin, car 2 would overtake car 1, and car 1 would simply reverse the order again, just a lap later. This hardly ever happens.

DRS simply takes away the one element which, until recently, prevented car 2 from overtaking at all, and that's the effect of turbulent air taking away downforce when going through and exiting the corner prior to the straight.

This is, of course, just battling symptoms, but I'm totally fine with that when the core problem cannot (yet) be addressed.

#28 muramasa

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:31


more like gone into blind alley. F1 has got to exit from there and find completely new direction.

#29 Juan Kerr

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:32

This is not a Pirelli bashing thread. They are just doing what the FIA has instructed them to do; perhaps not as extreme as has been the case but still an FIA objective.


If these modern F1 cars were not restricted by the tyres, I wonder how much faster they could really go.

Case in point:

2004 Spanish Grand Prix; 66 laps; 1:27:32.841

2013 Spanish Grand Prix; 66 laps; 1:39:16.596

That is a 12 minute difference over the same track over the same amount of lap! 12 minutes is a huge difference.

I know there were some corner changes (not chicane towards the end etc) and V10 engines etc, but it got me thinking; if a tyre war was suddenly introduced in F1, would see see lap times tumble to the extent that races could finish some 10 minutes earlier.....?

Everything should take its natural evolution, every time a human mind interferes consciously with things it messes it up. F1 should evolve itself like everything else. There's nothing wrong with banning certain concepts as they come along in a reactive sense but no-one should ever be pro-active because there is no-one clever enough. The trouble is there are too many egos in F1 and situations like this.

#30 juicy sushi

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:50

Some more data:

2006: 66 laps, 1:26:21.759, avg. lap 1:17.797 [Michelin,Bridgestone]
2007: 65 laps, 1:31:36.230, avg. lap 1:23.700 [Bridgestone] (chicane added, rev limit 19k)
2008: 66 laps, 1:38:19.051, avg lap 1:28.543 [Bridgestone] (TC banned)
2009: 66 laps, 1:37:19.202, avg. lap 1:27.704 [Bridgestone] (aero reduced, slicks reintroduced)

2010: 66 laps, 1:35:44.101, avg. lap 1:26.720 [Bridgestone] (refueling banned, rev limit 18k, min weight raised to 620kg)
2011: 66 laps, 1:39:03.301, avg. lap 1:28.825 [Pirelli] (DDD banned, DRS introduced, min weight 640kg)
2012: 66 laps, 1:39:09.145, avg. lap 1:29.174 [Pirelli] (EBD banned)
2013: 66 laps, 1:39:16.596, avg. lap 1:29.087 [Pirelli] (min weight 642 kg)

There were SCs in 2008 and 2009. Average lap time calculated after deducting time spent in pits

It's interesting that the biggest difference in total time came from the elimination of traction control.

I think many changes have been small improvements. DRS however has ruined things quite a bit for me.

#31 spacekid

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:53

What is a genuine overtake ? Is one car going past another because the engine is more powerful or the aero better balanced a genuine overtake ? Surely the only genuine overtakes that happen now are in spec karting.






You just aren't going to see action like this in the FIA approved DRS overtaking zones.

#32 Risil

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:55

It's interesting that the biggest difference in total time came from the elimination of traction control.


No way did removing traction control add five seconds to laptimes.

Were laps spent under the safety car (there were a LOT of those in 2008) included for the average laptime figure?

#33 Kalmake

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:01

2008 pole was 4 tenths slower than 2007.

Pole times:
2007 1:21.421
2008 1:21.813
2009 1:20.527
2010 1:19.995
2011 1:20.981
2012 1:21.707
2013 1:20.718

See dau's post above for rule changes.

Edited by Kalmake, 14 May 2013 - 21:09.


#34 rmpugh

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:04

I would say that overtaking is cheapened massively by a) DRS and KERS b) limits on defensive driving...


Well, KERS was available in 2009, yet only 2 overtakes, (the same as the year before with no KERS).

#35 Atreiu

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:12

No way did removing traction control add five seconds to laptimes.

Were laps spent under the safety car (there were a LOT of those in 2008) included for the average laptime figure?



Probably, and there were some 15 laps under the SC in 2008. Makes a huge difference.

#36 BMW4life

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:25

The rev limit is one of the reasons for few overtakings.


That's not true at all. The engines have had rev limiters for decades.... Literally!! The difference is that the FIA set a rev limit lower than what the manufacturer would have set to protect the engine.

#37 Kalmake

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:32

Well, KERS was available in 2009, yet only 2 overtakes, (the same as the year before with no KERS).


Only McLaren and Ferrari had KERS in that race.

#38 rmpugh

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:45

Only McLaren and Ferrari had KERS in that race.


So, were they the only 2 teams to overtake?

#39 Kalmake

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 22:45

So, were they the only 2 teams to overtake?


Kubica on Kovalainen(KERS) and Hamilton(KERS) on Piquet. Source: Clip The Apex

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#40 SUPRAF1

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:03

I think a quote from David Coulthard fits here nicely:

"As recently as 2009, I remember Alonso asking for the Singapore Grand Prix race distance to be shortened because everyone was physically spent after the first race there in 2008. No-one asks that anymore because the extreme physicality has gone out of it. Drivers go several seconds a lap slower and manage their tyres. "

" What does seem to be completely clear, though, is that the drivers are not pushing right to the limit in the race. To what degree, depends on who you listen to. But after winning the race on Sunday, Alonso said he had been pushing at 90% most of the way.

In my whole career, I very rarely drove at only 90%. Usually, I'd be coughing up a lung. my very first win, I remember thinking that if Michael Schumacher behind me didn't slow down, I was going to crash because I couldn't keep the pace up

Most of the time, chasing my team-mate Mika Hakkinen - as I usually was, unfortunately - I couldn't go any faster. Not because I was having to manage the tyres, but because I physically could not go any faster within the grip the tyres generated.

There are many sports that are not about extreme physical endeavour, but F1 has for me always been about man and machine taken to the limit, and if you go beyond that limit there is damage or there is death. Of course, F1 is still dangerous, but that gladiatorial aspect has been lessened. "

Source: BBC Sport website



#41 Frank Grimes

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:17

Overall it may not be going backwards, but for sure it's not going forward.

In terms of speed, power etc it has gone backwards.

In terms of sport, it has gone a bit backwards (bigger acceptance of team orders, and most notably DRS)

In terms of entertainment, it has gone kinda forward. But as someone noted, too easy overtaking is bad. I used to value proper defensive driving as much as proper overtaking. No we get almost none of the former (due to DRS and the need to nurse the tires) and not much more of the latter.


This is a good point. As much as wring my hands over DRS it is not leading to late 90's CART hanford device type racing.


#42 pingu666

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:12


a rather dull nascar finish, with no passing.

I quite liked some of the hanford racing, atleast it was a passive always on device, and theres tatics and games and alot of concentration and skill and precision in that type of racing, and with nascar and irl pack racing too which are similer

with teh hanford wing they where going massively fast wherent they?



#43 7MGTEsup

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:27

with teh hanford wing they where going massively fast wherent they?


The hanford wing was ment to slow them down on the super speedways. It did for a while but the closed course record was set with a hanford wing in 2000 at near 242mph at Fontana.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 15 May 2013 - 08:37.


#44 wj_gibson

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:14

I suspect a lot of the debates about what is "wrong" with contemporary F1 disguise a more fundamental disquiet that has lurked around for a long time, which is basically that the sport is far too closed-off and mediated by PR. Fans are just treated as cash cows, given the odd bone every now and again in the form of a derisory FIA fan survey or what have you, but essentially regarded as an audience that the sport's leaders wish to be as passive and acquiescent as possible.

#45 DS27

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:20

An overtake that's been endlessly anatomized and obsessed over because it was one of the two that happened in the race, of course.;)



Rather that than 71 easy overtakes that aren't even worth looking at twice.

#46 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:26

I suspect a lot of the debates about what is "wrong" with contemporary F1 disguise a more fundamental disquiet that has lurked around for a long time, which is basically that the sport is far too closed-off and mediated by PR. Fans are just treated as cash cows, given the odd bone every now and again in the form of a derisory FIA fan survey or what have you, but essentially regarded as an audience that the sport's leaders wish to be as passive and acquiescent as possible.

Just wait if and when series will go IPO with this "maximizing profits where investors are treated like deity". I expect clowns and marching bands in the middle of race allowing viewing audience to buy soda, and $30 hamburgers.

Edited by Sakae, 15 May 2013 - 09:26.


#47 DrProzac

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 16:44

DC's remarks from the previous page sum it up quite good. Though there are other aspects that gone wrong.

If DRS overtakes are not genuin, car 2 would overtake car 1, and car 1 would simply reverse the order again, just a lap later. This hardly ever happens.

Because the overtaking car is a bit faster. It was almost always this way. But before the overtaking driver had to earn his position with some hard work, now he does not.

DRS simply takes away the one element which, until recently, prevented car 2 from overtaking at all, and that's the effect of turbulent air taking away downforce when going through and exiting the corner prior to the straight.

It's not true. Think about it.
The downforce loss is a problem in the corners or during braking, acceleration. DRS doesn't address that, it just gives a huge advantage on the straights (where the following car already had some slipstream advantage). It's also hard to fine tune the extent of it's effect on the race. To really address the issue, they'd had to change the aero rules - mostly much more G/E downforce (proper one), less from the wings. The effect: more turbulent air resistant downforce, less turbulence. Something like this (though a bit too mild) was proposed for 2014. But the teams eventually protested it (cost or status quo, I don't know). DRS was meant to be just a interim solution, now it becomes permanent.

It's interesting that the biggest difference in total time came from the elimination of traction control.

I think something else changed, like the track layout. Or the laptime is calculated wrong. The TC ban didn't make the cars that much slower.

#48 lustigson

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 17:23

To really address the issue, they'd had to change the aero rules - mostly much more G/E downforce (proper one), less from the wings. The effect: more turbulent air resistant downforce, less turbulence. Something like this (though a bit too mild) was proposed for 2014.


Fully agreed. But, like you said, "the teams eventually protested it (cost or status quo, I don't know)". So, I don't really mind that DRS was chosen as interim solution. At least, to me, it has made racing more interesting.

#49 Jimisgod

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:04

http://www.grandprix...racereport.html

Someone else brought up this race report from Hungary 2004. The worst race in a season punctuated by the most boring races in F1 history.

We had some of the best cars, yes, but operating at that limit meant actual racing was down to a minimum. Unless it rained the races weren't worth watching. I'll happily watch slightly slower cars for the racing we've had since 2010.

#50 lustigson

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:19

http://www.grandprix...racereport.html

Someone else brought up this race report from Hungary 2004. The worst race in a season punctuated by the most boring races in F1 history.

We had some of the best cars, yes, but operating at that limit meant actual racing was down to a minimum. Unless it rained the races weren't worth watching. I'll happily watch slightly slower cars for the racing we've had since 2010.


Hear, hear!