9 replies to this topic

[TheThirdTenor1]

Conversation started here in another thread:

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=6272435

[Sin]

what exactly is there to discuss? can't you make a summary of the problem in the first post, linking to another thread is confusing

[TheThirdTenor1]

what exactly is there to discuss? can't you make a summary of the problem in the first post, linking to another thread is confusing

Sure no problem, main points are below:

apoka: Vettel almost won in Spa (my personal best drive 2012) - he just didn't have the luck that the leading car retired (as in Valencia).

TheThirdTenor1: He didn't have the luck? He had 6 of the top 10 cars taken out in front of him! If he had qualified where the car belonged, it is most likely that he would have been involved in that crash.

apoka: I said he "didn't have the luck that the leading car retired". (Btw. after the start he still lost positions, because of the crash.) What's wrong about saying that Ferrari didn't have the pace to win in Valencia without special circumstances like Vettel retiring? It seems that you didn't get the point: We have two great races by Alonso in Valencia and Vettel in Spa. In one case the leading car retired (outside of their control) and in the other it didn't. So the stats say that Alonso won from far back in the grid whereas that's not the case for Vettel. Yet, both drivers (and others) are able to win from lower grid positions.

TheThirdTenor1: Well this is being rather economical with the truth. In Valencia, 1 car retired ahead of Vettel and he also benefited from a shoddy Mclaren pit stop which got him ahead of Hamilton. In Spa, 6 cars retired in front of Vettel. If we had the similar circumstances in Spa to what we had in Valencia (i.e. Button retired, but Alonso, Hamilton, Grosjean, Perez and Kobayashi all continued after the start, then it is not certain that Vettel would have won).

Lantern: It is much harder for a faster car with lower straight line speed to come from the back. That would be a reason why vettel hasn't come from as far back as others.

TheThirdTenor1: FYI Alonso was only 17th and 16th through the speed traps in Malaysia and Valencia respectively. It certainly didn't stop him.

Edited by TheThirdTenor1, 20 May 2013 - 10:39.

[apoka]

I think such a thread itself could be interesting, but you also need to say what should be discussed. In the other thread, the point was that small changes outside of the control of a driver can lead to large changes in some statistics. In particular, Alonso has won from far back in Valencia and Vettel has not in Spa. Had the leading driver retired in front of Vettel at Spa last year, Vetter would look better in that stat. Had the leading driver not retired at Valencia last year, Alonso would look worse. The point was just that some statistics can be changed by unlikely events outside of driver control that they are not very conclusive by itself.

If the purpose of this thread here is to rate both drives, then it would be better to start a clean thread.

Btw. formatting wise copying parts of the arguments makes it confusing to read, since it is hard to see what they refer to.

[ebc]

I think both were great drives, Alonso got more credit because he won and Vettel did not. I personally enjoyed Vettels drive more, it was a very exciting drive through the field. Vettel got lucky with the incident at the start but was 12th at the end of lap 1, Alonso was 8th, benefitting from Ferrari's superior start performance, both he and Massa gained 3 spots.

I think both benefitted from others misfortune, but Alonso more so because the 2 fastest cars that day Vettel and Grosjean both retired, he was ahead of the Lotus but was being caught and he also gained a spot from Hamiltons and Raikkonens misfortune and Webbers problem in qualifying that put him 19th on the grid so that was 1 rival out of the way.

In Valencia Webber came from 19th to finish 4th and Schumacher 12th to 3rd so it was one of those races were alot happened. That is not to take away from Alonso's drive, it was fantastic and worthy of victory but so was Vettel's.

Alot of people on this board always look for ways to put Vettel down and this thread is another example, he is a world class driver it is clear to see and as good as anybody in the last 20 years with the exception of prime Schumacher. So i would rather just enjoy it than look for ways to discredit him. My personal favourite is Kimi but i am not blind to his faults and i am not a fan of Hamilton but still enjoy watching him race and believe he is an exceptional talent, i'm not going to deny it beacuse he is not one of my favourites.

I was watching Nascar at the weekend and in the driver intro's Jimmie Johnson got loud boo's from the crowd, the main reason being that he keeps winning, at the start of his career he was seen as breath of fresh air until he kept winning every year, fans of other drivers say his team cheat, that he only wins because of the car or his because of his crew chief Chad Knaus and that he is not a patch on great drivers like Dale Earnhardt. It is the exact same thing with Vettel, if he didn't win so much people wouldn't hate him.

[TheThirdTenor1]

I think both were great drives, Alonso got more credit because he won and Vettel did not. I personally enjoyed Vettels drive more, it was a very exciting drive through the field. Vettel got lucky with the incident at the start but was 12th at the end of lap 1, Alonso was 8th, benefitting from Ferrari's superior start performance, both he and Massa gained 3 spots.

It's not just the start mechanism, it's also the way he positioned himself in the first sequence of turns.

I think both benefitted from others misfortune, but Alonso more so because the 2 fastest cars that day Vettel and Grosjean both retired, he was ahead of the Lotus but was being caught and he also gained a spot from Hamiltons and Raikkonens misfortune and Webbers problem in qualifying that put him 19th on the grid so that was 1 rival out of the way.

Alonso was managing his tyres in the laps after the safety car. There was also a period where Hamilton was catching him, but then Alonso pulled away towards the end. Either way, he passed Grosjean and it would have been difficult for Grosjean to come back at him.

Alonso still had to pass Webber in the race (albeit a Webber on a different strategy). Where did Kimi have misfortune? I'm guessing the pits?

Also, Webber was demoted 5 places on the grid at Spa putting him behind Vettel.

In Valencia Webber came from 19th to finish 4th and Schumacher 12th to 3rd so it was one of those races were alot happened. That is not to take away from Alonso's drive, it was fantastic and worthy of victory but so was Vettel's.

You would expect that kind of progress from Webber though given the pace of the car.

In Spa, Hulkenberg went from 11th to 4th and Massa from 14th to 5th.

Alot of people on this board always look for ways to put Vettel down and this thread is another example,

How is this thread an example of that?

Edited by TheThirdTenor1, 20 May 2013 - 12:09.

[Kvothe]

To echoe various other posts both had good drives, however while Vettel may have come through the field, he did so on a track that was easy to overtake and in a situation where the majority of the front running cars ahead had been eliminated from the race, and although he found himself in twelfth place after the first lap, realistically he was a lot faster than most of the cars running in front of him, and while I don't rate it as high as Valencia, because of the weakened field he pulled off some impressive moves, such as a great overtake around the outside of Webber for position

While Alonso certainly benefited from Vettel's retirement and Hamilton's poor pitstop, this excellent article from Gordan Mccabe: http://mccabism.blog...rospective.html demonstrates just how much of a difference Alonso made when fighting amongst a strong pack on a track not usually known for overtaking, especially compared to Raikkonen who started higher but could only finish second.

[ebc]

It's not just the start mechanism, it's also the way he positioned himself in the first sequence of turns.

That is true, he is very good at the starts, a strength of his.

Alonso was managing his tyres in the laps after the safety car. There was also a period where Hamilton was catching him, but then Alonso pulled away towards the end. Either way, he passed Grosjean and it would have been difficult for Grosjean to come back at him.

Alonso still had to pass Webber in the race (albeit a Webber on a different strategy). Where did Kimi have misfortune? I'm guessing the pits?

Also, Webber was demoted 5 places on the grid at Spa putting him behind Vettel.

It would have been difficult for Grosjean to get back past, but he pulled a great move on Hamilton that day so he could have done the same to Alonso, if nothing else he was a theat removed. Kimi had a problem in the pits.

You would expect that kind of progress from Webber though given the pace of the car.

In Spa, Hulkenberg went from 11th to 4th and Massa from 14th to 5th.

RedBull was fast in Valencia it is true and Webber drove well, Hulkenburg and Massa's drives in Spa were also strong.

How is this thread an example of that?

Starting a thread to discuss the merits of these particular performances, and based on your own opinions in the previous thread suggest to me that you do not believe Vettel's drive to be of the same class, and have started a thread to tell everybody.

[TheThirdTenor1]

That is true, he is very good at the starts, a strength of his.

I'm glad we agree.

It would have been difficult for Grosjean to get back past, but he pulled a great move on Hamilton that day so he could have done the same to Alonso, if nothing else he was a theat removed. Kimi had a problem in the pits.

Yep, it was a good move though it took him a number of laps before he pulled it off, so that is the reason why i said it would be difficult for Grosjean to pass Alonso. Didn't realise that Kimi had a problem in the pits. How much time did he lose?

RedBull was fast in Valencia it is true and Webber drove well, Hulkenburg and Massa's drives in Spa were also strong.

I'm glad we also agree on this.

Starting a thread to discuss the merits of these particular performances, and based on your own opinions in the previous thread suggest to me that you do not believe Vettel's drive to be of the same class, and have started a thread to tell everybody.

I actually started the thread because it was an off topic discussion in another thread. As apoka said, i think the discussion has the potential to be interesting.

For the record, i think Alonso's drive in Valencia was better for reasons stated earlier, but Vettel's drive in Spa was also excellent. Part of the choice will come down to personal preference.

[SpaMaster]

I don't understand the point of the thread. Just to compare two specific drives over the past 60 years or so of F1, or some of the fantastic come-from-behind drives in recent F1? Even if it is latter, there are many such drives. This is pretty close to a random non-teammate driver X vs driver Y thread.

Edited by SpaMaster, 20 May 2013 - 14:30.