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quali tyres?


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#1 paulogman

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:20

It might be time to give something back.
Tyre degradation during the races ensures the racing is not processional.
So why not let the drivers loose during quali?
give them bespoke quali tyres and keep the parc ferme rules in place.
No changes to the car and no worries about saving race tyres instead of going for it.

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#2 Sakae

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:59

Dis you say Racing..?



#3 ExFlagMan

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:15

Full sticky quali tyres and current parc ferme rules would probably make very little difference.
Back in the 'heyday' of such tyres the car setup for quali was totally different to that for the race - the cars were almost rebuilt overnight.

#4 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:26

Yes please.

I seem to recall Pirelli proposing this in 2011 already only for the teams to toss it.

Full sticky quali tyres and current parc ferme rules would probably make very little difference.
Back in the 'heyday' of such tyres the car setup for quali was totally different to that for the race - the cars were almost rebuilt overnight.

It will make a big difference. Not only to the pace of the cars in qualifying but it will also open the possibility of varying strategies at the start of a GP.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 20 May 2013 - 12:28.


#5 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:27

I dont really understand the need for them.

#6 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:30

I dont really understand the need for them.

It opens up the rubbish rule that you start on what you qualified on. That alone is reason enough to bring back bespoke qualifying tyres.

#7 Cyanide

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:34

Completely agree.

Give the teams qualy tyres so at least they let loose on Saturdays. And on Sunday they don't have to worry about a short first stint. It also leaves room for more strategy to start either on the option or on the prime tyre.

Edited by Cyanide, 20 May 2013 - 12:35.


#8 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:36

It opens up the rubbish rule that you start on what you qualified on. That alone is reason enough to bring back bespoke qualifying tyres.

You can get rid of that rule without having Pirelli develop bespoke tires just for one session. In a cost-cutting environment it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Edited by Seanspeed, 20 May 2013 - 12:37.


#9 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:43

You can get rid of that rule without having Pirelli develop bespoke tires just for one session. In a cost-cutting environment it just doesn't make much sense to me.

You could but you would still be left with teams trying to save sets for the race which means less track time. Give the teams qualifying tyres and let them go nuts Saturday...

I also don't think this is a cost to the teams. It is a cost for Pirelli which they were previously prepared to bear because they did propose the return of qualifying tyres.

#10 Massa

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:48

This year, the softer tyres Pirelli take at each GP is the quali tyres. I think it was in China Hembery says this. The harder tyres is the race tyres, and the soft the quali tyres.

So we have actually a quali tyre, we just need to drop the rule that you have to do the first stint with the quali tyres. This rule is silly and bring nothing to the sport.

#11 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:55

You could but you would still be left with teams trying to save sets for the race which means less track time. Give the teams qualifying tyres and let them go nuts Saturday...

Give each driver in Q3 an extra set of options that they give back after qualifying. Solves the issue without having to make an entirely new tire that only gets used for one session.

I also don't think this is a cost to the teams. It is a cost for Pirelli which they were previously prepared to bear because they did propose the return of qualifying tyres.

Cost-cutting isn't something that only affects F1 teams. There's sporting regulations and things Pirelli do that are done for the sake of saving on expenses for the tire manufacturer, too. Like the two-compound per weekend thing. And the limit on number of sets per weekend.

#12 Zoetrope

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 13:04

I don't think it will affect the race much, but at least would make qualifying more interesting - no more damn No Time Set.

But wouldn't expect much from it anyway, drivers are already pushing on a hot-lap. The good thing about it is that maybe we could see more hot laps instead of cars leaving garage with 3 minutes to chequered flag.

#13 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 13:17

Give each driver in Q3 an extra set of options that they give back after qualifying. Solves the issue without having to make an entirely new tire that only gets used for one session.


Cost-cutting isn't something that only affects F1 teams. There's sporting regulations and things Pirelli do that are done for the sake of saving on expenses for the tire manufacturer, too. Like the two-compound per weekend thing. And the limit on number of sets per weekend.

You're not getting what I'm saying. Pirelli have proposed this to the teams already which means it is something that they're willing to do (absorb the cost). Also there is nothing in the sporting regulations with regard to cost cutting or control. There is/was an agreement between teams which control the costs of the chassis (they might still have the limit on the amount of employees), but that is it at present. The FIA have also, this year, withdrawn from playing a regulatory role in this cost cutting, after only a few months, so it's every man for himself right now.

#14 SpaMaster

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 13:24

It might be time to give something back.
Tyre degradation during the races ensures the racing is not processional.
So why not let the drivers loose during quali?
give them bespoke quali tyres and keep the parc ferme rules in place.
No changes to the car and no worries about saving race tyres instead of going for it.

Why? They can still go for it. The idea behind the current tyre rule is to keep the number of tyre requirements minimal and not have to carry around too much extra sets for qualy. I think they could give one extra set of options for Q3 and that would be enough.

#15 ExFlagMan

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 13:25

I don't think it will affect the race much, but at least would make qualifying more interesting - no more damn No Time Set.

But wouldn't expect much from it anyway, drivers are already pushing on a hot-lap. The good thing about it is that maybe we could see more hot laps instead of cars leaving garage with 3 minutes to chequered flag.

See to recall that was exactly what happened in the quali-tyre era.
Could even see less track action in Q3 each car only has a single set.

#16 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 13:36

You're not getting what I'm saying. Pirelli have proposed this to the teams already which means it is something that they're willing to do (absorb the cost). Also there is nothing in the sporting regulations with regard to cost cutting or control. There is/was an agreement between teams which control the costs of the chassis (they might still have the limit on the amount of employees), but that is it at present. The FIA have also, this year, withdrawn from playing a regulatory role in this cost cutting, after only a few months, so it's every man for himself right now.

Its unnecessary. I dont know what else there is to say. I could argue about all these other points for days, but at the end of the day, there's a much simpler, cheaper option that acheives the same goal.

#17 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 13:50

Its unnecessary. I dont know what else there is to say. I could argue about all these other points for days, but at the end of the day, there's a much simpler, cheaper option that acheives the same goal.

We get that you feel that way but don't use cost cutting as an excuse because, firstly, cost cutting is not regulated or policed by the FIA (Red Bull made sure of that) and, secondly, the tyre supplier is not part of said agreement.

In fact the only thing the FIA does with regard to this matter is have the changes which are aimed at further reduction in chassis costs ratified for inclusion in the technical regulations.

#18 SpaMaster

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 14:01

Cost-cutting is at the heart of the present tyre set allocation. It is one thing for teams to spend as much as they want. But the tyre supplier or FIA don't have to be part of that. If Pirelli want extra money, where is that going to come from? F1 profits.

Qualifying does not have to be a show at all. Qualifying is worth totally giving up for a fantastic Sunday. 3 minutes of Q3 - so what? That's good enough. That is enough time to sort the top 10. The same 3 minutes is enough to sort 7-10 from 11-14 or so in Q2. You get 6 minutes or so of real action to separate 17, 18 from 13-16.

#19 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 14:24

Cost-cutting is at the heart of the present tyre set allocation. It is one thing for teams to spend as much as they want. But the tyre supplier or FIA don't have to be part of that. If Pirelli want extra money, where is that going to come from? F1 profits.

Qualifying does not have to be a show at all. Qualifying is worth totally giving up for a fantastic Sunday. 3 minutes of Q3 - so what? That's good enough. That is enough time to sort the top 10. The same 3 minutes is enough to sort 7-10 from 11-14 or so in Q2. You get 6 minutes or so of real action to separate 17, 18 from 13-16.

I don't think cost cutting is at the heart of the allocation because it has been like this since Michelin pulled out. I would say it is a consequence of the sole supplier.

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#20 SpaMaster

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 14:26

^ I have read it to that effect.

#21 Clatter

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 15:50

I don't think cost cutting is at the heart of the allocation because it has been like this since Michelin pulled out. I would say it is a consequence of the sole supplier.


The number of tyres available has gradually come down, and the use both compound rule is so the manufacturer doesn't have to bring large numbers of tyres that never get used. Might only have come in when the single supplier started, but the reason is still cost cutting.

#22 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 16:04

The number of tyres available has gradually come down, and the use both compound rule is so the manufacturer doesn't have to bring large numbers of tyres that never get used. Might only have come in when the single supplier started, but the reason is still cost cutting.

I disagree. The tyre allocation was a FIA initiative and this came at a time when testing was still rife in Formula 1. James Allen shed some light on it the other day and Bridgestones test budget for Ferrari alone was €/$ 20 million.

As I said, Pirelli has put it on table as well as more sets for free practice which means cost is not an issue. It's the teams which keep turning the changes down.

#23 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 16:27

I've never heard of a business that would rather spend more money than necessary to acheive the same results.

You seem to be trying to win some point here, but can you answer whether you like the idea of the extra set of options in Q3 and whether you think it would accomplish the same thing that specific qualifying tires would? If so, then I dont know what else there is to discuss.

#24 Clatter

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 16:30

I've never heard of a business that would rather spend more money than necessary to acheive the same results.

You seem to be trying to win some point here, but can you answer whether you like the idea of the extra set of options in Q3 and whether you think it would accomplish the same thing that specific qualifying tires would? If so, then I dont know what else there is to discuss.


I'm with you. Extra set(s) are all that is required, can't see the point of making a Q tyre.

#25 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 16:50

I've never heard of a business that would rather spend more money than necessary to acheive the same results.

You seem to be trying to win some point here, but can you answer whether you like the idea of the extra set of options in Q3 and whether you think it would accomplish the same thing that specific qualifying tires would? If so, then I dont know what else there is to discuss.

Never heard of a business that is prepared to spend more money to achieve the same thing? I'm then telling you Pirelli proposed this in 2011. Formula 1 is form of marketing for them in any event.

http://www.planetf1....-of-qualy-tyres

The extra set is a band aid solution because you're still nursing race tyres in the other sessions. Qualifying should be a spectacle on its own and sticky tyres which offer plenty grip is just the thing.

I don't like the current tyre restrictions and I think this is common knowledge on this board, in fact Pirelli proposed qualifying tyres, they've offered more sets and they've proposed teams choose their own tyres per GP weekend but the teams keep rejecting it and then they bitch and moan like they are now.

I'd like the stupid parc ferme restrictions to go as well. I really don't see how allowing setup changes between qualifying and the race is costing extra money too.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 20 May 2013 - 16:55.


#26 Risil

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 20:18

I've never heard of a business that would rather spend more money than necessary to acheive the same results.


Really?

#27 pingu666

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 20:51

a extra set of tyres just for q3, and removal of must start on qualy tyres might work. i think bringing the super soft as that q3 might be good.
but would you let the teams use a set of supersoft tyres in practise, or just bring 10-11 sets, and wheel em into the garages at end of q2?




#28 ExFlagMan

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:28

I'd like the stupid parc ferme restrictions to go as well. I really don't see how allowing setup changes between qualifying and the race is costing extra money too.

I guess it depends on how effective you make the rules on what a 'set-up change' is and how well you can police it.
Seem to recall an awful lot of money was spent on qualifying parts in the past - the car that raced having very little in common with that which qualified.

#29 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:46

I guess it depends on how effective you make the rules on what a 'set-up change' is and how well you can police it.
Seem to recall an awful lot of money was spent on qualifying parts in the past - the car that raced having very little in common with that which qualified.

Just don't allow parts and engines to be changed but allow setup changes like ride height, suspension adjustments etc. It doesn't cost a penny because those things are already part of the car.

It will likely sort out the issue we have with wet weather running as well so we can return to wet setups.

#30 noikeee

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:55

I don't see the need for a whole new compound just for qualifying. A separate allocation of the already existing compounds would suffice to make it better (so they wouldn't be scared to run at 100% pace for a laptime).

#31 ExFlagMan

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:17

Just don't allow parts and engines to be changed but allow setup changes like ride height, suspension adjustments etc. It doesn't cost a penny because those things are already part of the car.

It will likely sort out the issue we have with wet weather running as well so we can return to wet setups.

This is F1 - even allowing that will cost money as the teams will all go down the line of developing trick suspension systems that allow more radical suspension adjustments.

#32 cooper

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:25

I think that not even having qualification tyres would be necessary, just give the teams extra sets of tyres to use (so they aren't so sensitive about having more sets for the race.. sighs).

Mix this with letting the teams decide which new compound they want to start the race on and you will immediately see some fun strategies in race. I understand that cost is what they're saying is the reason behind it, but if they make the tyres more conservative to degradation then surely they will use less anyway?

#33 Ferrari2183

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:31

This is F1 - even allowing that will cost money as the teams will all go down the line of developing trick suspension systems that allow more radical suspension adjustments.

Umm. They're doing that already.