20 replies to this topic

[examateur racer]

What I would like to know from race professionals is whether engines from the same manufacturer are the same, I do know that with road cars the power can vary up to 5% between production engines when new.

So to be specific will the engines supplied to Mercedes be the same as supplied to McLaren?

Will the engines supplied by Renault be the same for Red Bull as Caterham?

I do realise that the ECU can be programmed by individual teams and that may cause a variation.

I am really after factual comments rather than “I think” comments!

[Mrluke]

What I would like to know from race professionals is whether engines from the same manufacturer are the same, I do know that with road cars the power can vary up to 5% between production engines when new.

So to be specific will the engines supplied to Mercedes be the same as supplied to McLaren?

Will the engines supplied by Renault be the same for Red Bull as Caterham?

I do realise that the ECU can be programmed by individual teams and that may cause a variation.

I am really after factual comments rather than “I think” comments!

Nobody is going to come on here with factual proof that RBR are given a better engine than Caterham.

Can you imagine the uproar if one team found out that they get worse engines than their competitor, say Lotus vs RBR? There is going to be some variance between engines but is going to be very small and wont be directed towards one team or another.

[MikeTekRacing]

What I would like to know from race professionals is whether engines from the same manufacturer are the same, I do know that with road cars the power can vary up to 5% between production engines when new.

So to be specific will the engines supplied to Mercedes be the same as supplied to McLaren?

Will the engines supplied by Renault be the same for Red Bull as Caterham?

I do realise that the ECU can be programmed by individual teams and that may cause a variation.

I am really after factual comments rather than “I think” comments!

I expect some variances but nowhere near road cars range. This is F1 and the margins for error are a lot smaller (and the prices higher)

[Shiroo]

well maybe package is a bit different or something that will fit different chassis

[Cavani]

no one here knows anything about this matter and the next 2 or 3 pages will be assumptions, hopes , false information and speculation

[Murdoch]

Apologies OP for the guess work but....

Surely Renault/Ferrari/Merc test the engines on a dyno, this will give them the bhp/torque figures etc, now knowing this, surely they will keep the best ones?

Or is that too obvious?

[Clatter]

Apologies OP for the guess work but....

Surely Renault/Ferrari/Merc test the engines on a dyno, this will give them the bhp/torque figures etc, now knowing this, surely they will keep the best ones?

Or is that too obvious?

I think that's probably true, but the manufacturing tolerances are so good that the difference is likely to be very small.

[V8 Fireworks]

no one here knows anything about this matter and the next 2 or 3 pages will be assumptions, hopes , false information and speculation

For example AFAIK the likes of Hendricks (NASCAR) who supply a number of customer teams would randomise the allocation of engines between themselves and their customers, as part of the customer engine deals. Otherwise why should the customers feel confident? It is something they do in good faith for their customers, and Smoke (Tony Stewart) can and does win races with his customer Hendricks engine so everybody is a happy chappy.

I suspect F1 engine operations operate likewise. Whether the engine goes to Raikkonen or Pic or Vettel or Maldonado is randomised and that keep should keep all the customers all happy.

[Sakae]

Whilst I believe that engines are manufactured to known and accepted variances, I wonder how they are distributed? Is it a supplier who just delivers x-number of units, randomly selected to theirs respective clients with testing data sheets, or each customers travels on a specific date to the supplier's facility, where numbered crates are awaiting, and after each client picks randomly a number from a hat, only then having the corresponding crate with an engine in it hauled to their dock?

Edited by Sakae, 22 May 2013 - 14:11.

[spacekid]

Its a good question - don't know.

I've lost track of the technical side of things slightly. Are all teams still producing their own gearboxes? The mating of the engine to the gearbox/drive train could have a bigger effect on power than differences in the engines at manufacture...

[HaydenFan]

Listening to the Peter Windsor podcast, video show he discussed the basics of the idea with Remi Taffin, Head of Renault engine program, who said all Renault engines use the same fuel and oil. Didn't go past that, but seemed to say the engines where similar. I think it might be tuning numbers that teams are given that are different. Red Bull might be allowed to run the engine at full tilt, whereas Caterham might only be allowed due to leasing stipulations, only run at a lower given number.

As for the guy above about the gearboxes. Cannot remember if every team makes there own, or they buy from other teams (like how teams buy KERS systems), but from what I know about the clutches, they are all the same. They all generally make their own, but are so similar with only a few small details (like housing unit design), that it brings no performance difference from team to team.

[Wiggy]

No. Mercedes have hidden weights in the McLaren version of their engines ;)

[GhostR]

I remember a few years back STR were being very vocal about having an older spec engine than Ferrari had - it got to the point where they were pretty much calling Ferrari out on contract violation in public, to force them to hand over the newest upgrades.

I'd be surprised if that sort of thing isn't still happening to a small degree. The engine manufacturer's put through as many "reliability" updates as they can, and it would not surprise me if those updates flow faster to the 'preferred' teams than to the customer teams.

[examateur racer]

F1 is so competitive I can't believe that selection doesn't go on.

Talk of high tolerances may be true but only if the build standards are the same.

Then of course I now realise there are fuel variations (I don't believe that Caterham,Red Bull,Williams and Lotus run the same fuel).

I also can't believe that there is random selection, otherwise why would Red Bull announce they are the "works team" only to be given random engines?

Does anyone know how the 8 engines a season works? Are teams allowed to rebuild engines? or are they sealed and disposed of?

[Clatter]

I remember a few years back STR were being very vocal about having an older spec engine than Ferrari had - it got to the point where they were pretty much calling Ferrari out on contract violation in public, to force them to hand over the newest upgrades.

I'd be surprised if that sort of thing isn't still happening to a small degree. The engine manufacturer's put through as many "reliability" updates as they can, and it would not surprise me if those updates flow faster to the 'preferred' teams than to the customer teams.

Are you talking pre or post homologation?

It was common practise for the customer teams to be one or 2 steps behind the works team prior to homologation, but I don't think that situation has arisen since.

[Clatter]

F1 is so competitive I can't believe that selection doesn't go on.

Talk of high tolerances may be true but only if the build standards are the same.

Then of course I now realise there are fuel variations (I don't believe that Caterham,Red Bull,Williams and Lotus run the same fuel).

I also can't believe that there is random selection, otherwise why would Red Bull announce they are the "works team" only to be given random engines?

Does anyone know how the 8 engines a season works? Are teams allowed to rebuild engines? or are they sealed and disposed of?

Because the works team get the engines for free and likely a greater number of personnel to look after them. They are likely the lead partner when it comes upgrade directions. Those are reasonably big advantages even if the engines were dished out randomly.

The teams do not get to play with the internals of the engine at all, nor do they get to keep them. All work on them is carried out by the supplier and the engine is returned to them at the end of it's life.

Edited by Clatter, 23 May 2013 - 13:43.

[One]

Toyota
Renault/Merceds
Ferrari

in the order of fairness towards the engine price/performance meter, IMHO.

[Sakae]

Toyota
Renault/Merceds
Ferrari

in the order of fairness towards the engine price/performance meter, IMHO.

Could you elaborate and how could we check that out?

[danmills]

My brothers friend worked for Mercedes for the last two years and is switching to a role at Toro Rosso this year.

Apparantly if anything that was to be provided from Mercedes directly, be it data or physical items, they were allegedly instructed to delay it in any shape or form if McLaren were the recipients. Just because they could.

Take that as you like, its merely what I was told.

[GhostR]

Are you talking pre or post homologation?

It was common practise for the customer teams to be one or 2 steps behind the works team prior to homologation, but I don't think that situation has arisen since.

STR's only used Ferrari's post-homologation. Keep in mind that for the first couple of years the manufacturer's (and particularly Ferrari) exploited loopholes in the allowances for "reliability" updates to continue developing the engines to an extent. I think it was 2008 that there were rumours/grumbling that STR's Ferrari engine wasn't full spec initially. A combination of the "STR3" introduction and getting their hands on the full "reliability updated" Ferrari engine propelled them ahead of RBR on a regular basis through the late season.

All this from memory, struggling to find any specific mentions via search at the moment.

[SonJR]

I think the biggest difference is in the technical support the different teams get from their suppliers, with regard to engine mapping etc.