59 replies to this topic

[Rybo]

With all the rumors of Kimi possible signing for RBR made me think about how important their young driver program is. Obviously this is just speculation, but the whole point of Torro Rosso was to evaluate a young drivers potential for a race seat at Red Bull. Of course not everyone can be a Vettel(Multiple WDC) or a Webber(Multiple Race Winner), but it does ask a lot of questions.

Are they bringing in the right drivers?

Are the drivers they bring in good enough to be race winners?

If no to either question than what are they doing wrong?

How are they evaluating drivers and their skills?




On face value though its an easy win for Kimi against any of the Torro Rosso drivers. Talented? Check. Race Winner? Check. Champion? Check. But if they would rather take a proven driver than a driver with potential then what is the point of buying your own team and bringing in drivers? I know that with your own team you can have a better understanding of how the drivers operate and can better evaluate them, but whats the point if you go with someone else and then drop the drivers afterwards?

[lbennie]

With all the rumors of Kimi possible signing for RBR made me think about how important their young driver program is. Obviously this is just speculation, but the whole point of Torro Rosso was to evaluate a young drivers potential for a race seat at Red Bull. Of course not everyone can be a Vettel(Multiple WDC) or a Webber(Multiple Race Winner), but it does ask a lot of questions.

Are they bringing in the right drivers?

Are the drivers they bring in good enough to be race winners?

If no to either question than what are they doing wrong?

How are they evaluating drivers and their skills?




On face value though its an easy win for Kimi against any of the Torro Rosso drivers. Talented? Check. Race Winner? Check. Champion? Check. But if they would rather take a proven driver than a driver with potential then what is the point of buying your own team and bringing in drivers? I know that with your own team you can have a better understanding of how the drivers operate and can better evaluate them, but whats the point if you go with someone else and then drop the drivers afterwards?

The kimi rumour has been popping up every year since his return, it is only gathering more momentum this time because of the whole porsche leak with webber.

All the noises im hearing at the moment is they have indicated to ricciardo to get ready to step in.... take from that what you will.

[GhostR]

The kimi rumour has been popping up every year since his return, it is only gathering more momentum this time because of the whole porsche leak with webber.

All the noises im hearing at the moment is they have indicated to ricciardo to get ready to step in.... take from that what you will.

Yup. It's shaping up that they're looking very seriously at Ricciardo as an option for the second RBR seat based on recent statements. They're also looking at Kimi - they'd be stupid not to, regardless of where that leaves their junior development drivers.

At F1 level they've produced Vettel as a WDC. They've had lots of success in the junior categories, and it would be foolish to underestimate how important that is in Mateschitz's eyes. They're not just running an F1 team, they're running a motorsports program that has it's fingers in many, many pies. So while the junior program is there to bring drivers to F1, it also serves a purpose in attracting the best talent to their junior category cars as well. And, for those that wash out of the F1 path, they often keep the drivers on board for other series (Speed stayed with them for Red Bull backed Nascar, for example, while Buemi has been kept on as a quality test/reserve driver).

Farce? No way, although the potential was there when Buemi and Jaime were both dumped so abruptly. I'd say that at least one of the current STR drivers will be in with a very strong shout at an RBR seat. Given the ratio of top-flight vs journeyman vs also-rans across all the rookies we've seen over the last decade or so, I reckon a strike rate of 2 successes out of the program every 10 years would be a successful junior program.

If you look at the other teams' junior programs: how many of their juniors have Ferrari brought through? They lost Perez because they declared him too raw for a Ferrari seat. Will remain to be seen what happens with Bianchi.

[noikeee]

It's so farcical they've won 3 championships with a driver from their programme.

World champion level drivers are very very rare. That they've managed to find just one is a success really. They'd be crazy to pick Ricciardo only on the basis he's from their programme if they're fully convinced Kimi is a better driver - and well, they must be?

Do think it's slightly harsh on Dan but by this stage I was expecting a little extra. Both him and JEV are very competent drivers, both probably better than the previous pair and very capable of becoming long-term midfield drivers in F1, but don't think they are top team material (yet?).

[kosmos]

The fact that Alguersuari is out of F1 tells you the truth.

[Imperial]

Basically what noikeee said in their first sentence.

Has any other team brought on a young driver, or string of young drivers, and got three successive WDC's out of them? No.

So far their programme has reaped more than they probably expected it to.

[EthanM]

it's better than any other young driver program, it produced a triple world champion. Do you know of any program that has done better?

[noikeee]

The fact that Alguersuari is out of F1 tells you the truth.

... that their standards are extremely high?

It was very harsh on Jaime sure, he had the potential to be a solid driver with a 20-year career in F1, but he was no potential champion so didn't meet their needs. Doesn't make the programme a failure.

[kosmos]

... that their standards are extremely high?

It was very harsh on Jaime sure, he had the potential to be a solid driver with a 20-year career in F1, but he was no potential champion so didn't meet their needs. Doesn't make the programme a failure.

Or maybe he had potential to be a great number 2 and replace Webber.

[EthanM]

Or maybe he had potential to be a great number 2 and replace Webber.

which is not what they are looking for? Number 2s are easy to find in the driver market, you don't need to fund them yourself. Besides the fact there are no teams banging on Alguersuari's door probably means RB were right.

[dau]

Basically what noikeee said in their first sentence.

Has any other team brought on a young driver, or string of young drivers, and got three successive WDC's out of them? No.

So far their programme has reaped more than they probably expected it to.

Well, McLaren would have with Hamilton, if they had the cars Red Bull had.

@kosmos: Why would you want to replace a great, proven number two with a potentially great number two?

[TecnoRacing]

Basically what noikeee said in their first sentence.

Has any other team brought on a young driver, or string of young drivers, and got three successive WDC's out of them? No.

So far their programme has reaped more than they probably expected it to.

I suspect, you could plug any number of RB driver program drivers (among them Alguesuari, Ricciardo, Verne etc.) into the the RB6-RB8 and achieve close, if not comparable results...

Edited by fer312t, 23 May 2013 - 09:11.

[Imperial]

I think people are missing the point of the RBR programme.

They aren't interested in how many drivers careers are 'wrecked' by them, although there is always the argument they've sustained careers of so-so drivers past their best-before dates, they're interested in success rates. If they throw X number of drivers into the programme, then a certain % will naturally succeed. It just so happens that they struck gold early with Vettel.

And people do realise the RBR young driver programme hasn't ended, yes? Vettel and Webber will either move on or retire someday, assuming Red Bull are still in F1 they may well put in another of their young drivers and reap further WDC's. In fairness to Red Bull, they've only been running an F1 team for eight (full) seasons and in only five of them did they not have a driver win the WDC.

Would it not be better discussing this in say ten years time?

[ardbeg]

I know that with your own team you can have a better understanding of how the drivers operate and can better evaluate them, but whats the point if you go with someone else and then drop the drivers afterwards?

As others have pointed out, they are highly successful and will most likely continue to be so. Apart from Vettel, I think only Hamilton came to the top "within his program" and I see no team that give their adepts a better chance than RBR. They even have a "junior" F1 team to prove they take it seriously. If they sign Kimi, it is not really a huge step oitside their program since they have sponsored him during his F1 vacation and their young driver programme can only benefit if the top line team is doing well. Personally I find it very likely that Vettel will move to Ferrari shortly and another space will open up in the top team.

It is not every year we see a rookie appear that has "future WDC" tattoed on his forehead. They are rare, those drivers. Maybe one in a million.

[KavB]

The scheme lost its importance once Red Bull became a winning team. If they were still at the midfield, fighting for 7th place then I'm sure they would take someone like Alguersuari or Riccardo, but their goals have changed and so their standards have increased. I'm sure they would rather take a driver from their "family" but they aren't going to prioritise that over winning. Red Bull have shown they are not sentimental towards their own drivers as they continuously bring in new blood to Toro Rosso once they realise their old drivers weren't going to make it big in F1 so it's not surprise they are even more strict with who comes into their main team.

[FPV GTHO]

I don't know about farcical. There are a few things I don't care for - theyve brought a few drivers to F1 level and dropped them on their face - Tonio Liuzzi got back in with Force India but not before a year testing. There seems to be very little push for the drivers to support themselves once Red Bull don't. My other gripe is Helmut Marko.

[Jimisgod]

Eh, I think Ricciardo could make something of it. He seems to be on the edge of a great result every so often, only to be struck by a strategy failure.

Vettel benefited in the final year that they could share designs between constructors, his win in 2008 was very much aided by the Newey inspired elements that came down from the parent team to the 2008 car. Remember that Bourdais also good showings in that car, and qualified 4th in Monza.

Once that design link was gone Toro Rosso hasn't really been in a position to do much more than be lower midfield, which is a hard place to impress from. Attrition is well down on years passed, so podiums are nigh on impossible for a team of that caliber. Dan has already matched the best Jamie A. could do, a 7th.

As for the other drivers:

- Liuzzi was like a Zonta or Piquet Jr., he won at the GP2 level but was too crash prone and mentally weak to last long in F1. His poor showing against Sutil wasted that good opportunity in what was a half decent car.

- Speed never had much hope at all. Also had an attitude issue.

- Bourdais was beaten heavily by Vettel. On his own, I rate him higher than Luizzi, but Buemi was obviously a better choice and had more points before Bourdais was dumped.

- Buemi has moved into a testing role so he must have some value. I think he would make a fine #2 driver.

- Jamie A. was the only real failure of the system. I think he had the edge over Buemi in 2011, yet he was dumped unceremoniously. Sadly we saw the much more capable Kobayashi and Glock leave the series a year later due to budget constraints, so maybe he was just an indicator of what was to come. Jamie was obviously more capable than say Gutierrez.

I think that overall, the RBR young driver program kind of gave too much time to inadequate drivers like Liuzzi in the early years and then developed unreasonable expectations by the time it came around to Jamie A. If anything, I think they would have had the best Webber replacement in Alguersuari had they kept him on for 2012.

RBR does not need a clash of the titans between Vettel and Raikkonen, McLaren in 2007 showed what a problem that can cause.

[GhostR]

From memory, STR's bosses pretty much killed Jaime's and Buemi's aspirations to land race seats outside the RB umbrella when they dropped them. Partly because the dump happened so late on, but more importantly because of what they said about them when they dropped them: that neither had been able to get the best out of the car, and that both had stopped improving/developing as drivers.

It's been really interesting tracking what they've had to say about Vergne and Ricciardo. Despite the cars finishing in near enough the same places as Buemi and Jaime were achieving, the team bosses have been talking down the car and talking up the drivers. Both have been talked about as still continuing to develop strongly. Both have been given a positive word with regards being in the frame for the second RBR seat (Ricciardo more so than Vergne).

[ardbeg]

People change. Drivers are human. One thing is to focus in the younger years, another is to stay focus whgen they reach the spotlight and get surrounded by women and money. Their attitude might change and I know that is defintely true for some of the drivers mentioned above.

[Cesc]

From memory, STR's bosses pretty much killed Jaime's and Buemi's aspirations to land race seats outside the RB umbrella when they dropped them. Partly because the dump happened so late on, but more importantly because of what they said about them when they dropped them: that neither had been able to get the best out of the car, and that both had stopped improving/developing as drivers.

It's been really interesting tracking what they've had to say about Vergne and Ricciardo. Despite the cars finishing in near enough the same places as Buemi and Jaime were achieving, the team bosses have been talking down the car and talking up the drivers. Both have been talked about as still continuing to develop strongly. Both have been given a positive word with regards being in the frame for the second RBR seat (Ricciardo more so than Vergne).

That was a quite nasty move from Toro Rosso on Buemi and Alguersuari. It was Helmut MArko the one saying those "nice" words about the guys.
The fact that Alguersuari was that young was even worse because in two seasons in a mid-field (or worse) car can't tell you much about your skills in a great car. Is Alguersuari worse than Pere, Sutil, Di Resta, Maldonado... I would rate him at the same level.

Ricciardo and Vergne are no better than them and they are going to be fired as well at some point.

I think that this young drivers program is a marketing strategy from Red Bull, which is, essentially, a marketing company, a brand.

Edited by Cesc, 23 May 2013 - 10:48.

[Oho]

I suspect, you could plug any number of RB driver program drivers (among them Alguesuari, Ricciardo, Verne etc.) into the the RB6-RB8 and achieve close, if not comparable results...

No kidding, why?

Are you that certain of Vettel being merely competent rather than extraordinary F1 driver? I certainly think there is pretty strong case to be made for him being the latter, certainly as strong as for any other active driver on the grid.

[Imperial]

Have RBR every dropped a driver who demonstrably excelled in an F1 car?

I can't see anyone who fits this category that they've let go. I don't find that a problem. I neither want to watch second rate drivers, nor do I care if their free-ride comes to an end either. Nobody cares whether I keep my job.

You can to and fro regarding the merits of previous RBR drivers until the cows come home, but to pick but one example in Alguesuari, all I ever used to hear about was the guy being a DJ. It's all he seemed interested in, it's all most of the articles about him ever talked about. I think he got in the top 20 or so in the dance charts in Spain with his mix cd.

Is this what RBR want in a driver? A guy who plays nightclubs in Ibiza until 4am on his weekends off, or a driver who is in the gym all day on his days off, in bed by 10pm every day and gets the job done on track?

[Talisman]

Have RBR every dropped a driver who demonstrably excelled in an F1 car?

Did they not nearly lose Vettel to BMW who was a test driver for them? I'm not sure of the details but I thought they severed their connection with the German when he took up the test driver contract and were lucky to get him back into the STR. BMW could have used his contract to keep hold of him but didn't.

[wj_gibson]

I dare say the Elf programme in the 70s was more effective than Red Bull's.

[wj_gibson]

And Red Bull was happy for Jaime to do DJ slots as well, it added to their faux-rebellious youth image. If there was a chance that it was going to impact his prospects at succeeding to an eventual RBR race seat than they would have nipped it in the bud early on.

I think what really sticks with Jaime is that he had offers to go elsewhere and turned them down having (he says) been given reassurances about his seat right up until the day he found out it wasn't quite as secure as he'd been led to believe. His view was that they could have been more upfront about that earlier on; as it was, the decision seemed designed not only to remove him from his STR seat but also do so at such a late stage in the cycle as to ensure that no one would get him either (and therefore negate any risk that Red Bull might look like idiots if their ex-driver went off and excelled elsewhere; which is why I think the decision was taken at such a late point).

[Talisman]

And Red Bull was happy for Jaime to do DJ slots as well, it added to their faux-rebellious youth image. If there was a chance that it was going to impact his prospects at succeeding to an eventual RBR race seat than they would have nipped it in the bud early on.

I think what really sticks with Jaime is that he had offers to go elsewhere and turned them down having (he says) been given reassurances about his seat right up until the day he found out it wasn't quite as secure as he'd been led to believe. His view was that they could have been more upfront about that earlier on; as it was, the decision seemed designed not only to remove him from his STR seat but also do so at such a late stage in the cycle as to ensure that no one would get him either (and therefore negate any risk that Red Bull might look like idiots if their ex-driver went off and excelled elsewhere; which is why I think the decision was taken at such a late point).

Though to be fair this is the same Jaime who claimed he was guaranteed a Force India seat for 2013 extremely early on in 2012...

Edited by Talisman, 23 May 2013 - 12:28.

[Dunc]

There were a lot of French drivers on the grid in the late 1970s and early 1980s, who had all gone through driver programmes. Many were race winners but only one went on to be a multiple WDC.

As others have said, the talent you need to be a WDC is rare and very few achieve it.

For another example, I don't know how many drivers raced in F1 during the 2000s but my guess is it would be around the 100 mark. Of those, five went on to win the WDC an only two won it more than once.

Edited by Dunc, 23 May 2013 - 13:15.

[Rybo]

I'm looking at the body of work and removing the outliers such as Vettel (3x WDC) and Karthekayian (just not good). My thinking is that surely someone would have showed more talent and innate ability that Webber. They are in a tight spot because of their success, but isn't that a mark of a great team (in any sport) where they can rely on their scouting and get the young guys to do a better job that the old guard?

[Imperial]

It's also little known, but quite true, that Mclaren actually had two youngsters on their roster back in the day.

One was Lewis Hamilton and one was some kid called Wesley Graves, who was unceremoniously dumped for reasons unknown, although he made comments to the effect that they'd wanted a successful black driver and as time went by it turned out they were getting one. The assumption being that he was surplus to requirements.

I find that situation far more farcical than RBR giving drivers a chance all the way into F1 and letting them go when it transpires that neither the talent or commitment are there. I hate to use the word 'dumped' for people who were given ample chance.

[Atreiu]

The fact that Alguersuari is out of F1 tells you the truth.

Neither Red Bull nor any other team want him?

Edited by Atreiu, 23 May 2013 - 14:17.

[ebc]

I think their program has been a success, F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and RedBull racing program has 3 drivers competing in the series, that is a huge success. Not every driver is going to win races never mind titles so to have just 1 who wins 3 championships in a row is a great achievement.

If the drivers at STR are not good enough for the senior team then they have to go with Kimi, there is no point taking a junior driver for the sake of it and Kimi has had a link with RedBull for a while anyway. The other drivers like Buemi and Alguersuari were not good enough for F1 and thats why they are not here now.

[GT Racing Online Magazine]

With all the rumors of Kimi possible signing for RBR made me think about how important their young driver program is. Obviously this is just speculation, but the whole point of Torro Rosso was to evaluate a young drivers potential for a race seat at Red Bull. Of course not everyone can be a Vettel(Multiple WDC) or a Webber(Multiple Race Winner), but it does ask a lot of questions.

Are they bringing in the right drivers?

Are the drivers they bring in good enough to be race winners?

If no to either question than what are they doing wrong?

How are they evaluating drivers and their skills?

On face value though its an easy win for Kimi against any of the Torro Rosso drivers. Talented? Check. Race Winner? Check. Champion? Check. But if they would rather take a proven driver than a driver with potential then what is the point of buying your own team and bringing in drivers? I know that with your own team you can have a better understanding of how the drivers operate and can better evaluate them, but whats the point if you go with someone else and then drop the drivers afterwards?

Generational talents, which is what they are looking for (to fill the RB race seat) come around usually no more than once in a (driver) generation - they already have one of their driver program drivers in a race seat. Also the driver academies are there to hone talent, but it doesn't give them some God given right to a shot at a race seat in the best team around, this is a team that wants to fight for the constructors championship every year - and if you can take a consistent proven race winner/champion like Kimi Raikkonen to your team (that is not forced to take risks at the mo, on the contrary) you'd be a quite mad. The step between RB and TR is huge, and I think most drivers would, if not a clear generational talent like Vettel/Hamilton, benefit from a stint in a team between these two on the ladder of competitiveness to prove their consistency. Academies can also be there to generate revenue by "selling" the talents to other teams/and or series. I think you read too much into the fact that the driver academy of RB is linked to TR and that the experience from that seat gives them a huge leg up on the race seat of RB as compared to other driver academies.

Also you might want to take a look at other team's driver academies/young driver programs and compare the success rate of talent conversion, I'm sure RBs program success rate is among the best.

[Rob]

The other drivers like Buemi and Alguersuari were not good enough for F1 and thats why they are not here now.

So Giedo van der Garde and Max Chilton are better?

[karne]

Is RBR's Young Driver Program a Farce?

Two words:

Helmut. Marko.

[HaydenFan]

The fact that Alguersuari is out of F1 tells you the truth.

Red Bull got their use out of him and moved on. The fact he isn't in F1 is his fault. Either the inability to raise funds or do enough during his run in the STR seat to impress a team to hire him.

The fact Red Bull is investing tens of millions every year on this program (hundreds if you view Toro Rosso as an arm of the program), it should be commended, rather than condemned. They have helped many young drivers (like Scott Speed) show their talents in series where they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford. Does Ferrari spend this type of money? Does Mercedes? McLaren? Lotus/Genaii? While they have dropped drivers like stones when they don't pan out, Red Bull is a business. They are playing drivers like the stock market. They invest in a variety of drivers hoping to find that gem (i.e. Vettel), and they bail like someone being caught by their wife with another women. While it comes across as harsh, it is the reality of the sport.

Red Bull has also dropped many young driver's who have showed potential. Daniel Morad wins the FBMW USA title in 2007, but dropped before the 2008 season. Wickens dropped after a runner up results in F2, and went on to runner up in GP3 and a title in FR3.5.

Edited by HaydenFan, 23 May 2013 - 15:39.

[HP]

I suspect, you could plug any number of RB driver program drivers (among them Alguesuari, Ricciardo, Verne etc.) into the the RB6-RB8 and achieve close, if not comparable results...

Webber is proof of that assumption I presume?

[ThomFi]

That was a quite nasty move from Toro Rosso on Buemi and Alguersuari. It was Helmut MArko the one saying those "nice" words about the guys.
The fact that Alguersuari was that young was even worse because in two seasons in a mid-field (or worse) car can't tell you much about your skills in a great car. Is Alguersuari worse than Pere, Sutil, Di Resta, Maldonado... I would rate him at the same level.

Ricciardo and Vergne are no better than them and they are going to be fired as well at some point.

I think that this young drivers program is a marketing strategy from Red Bull, which is, essentially, a marketing company, a brand.

I quote Autosport's Edd Straw
"After all, Marko was the one who wanted to retain Jaime Alguersuari and Sebastien Buemi at Toro Rosso in 2012 only to be over-ruled by Dietrich Mateschitz, who is very much his own man."

Don't buy into Vettel as the villain

[ebc]

So Giedo van der Garde and Max Chilton are better?

They are not good enough either

[pingu666]

vettle is the only one of the programe to get to the premier team, isnt he?
so that is only 1 individual, admittidly hes done really well.

[noikeee]

vettle is the only one of the programe to get to the premier team, isnt he?
so that is only 1 individual, admittidly hes done really well.

They had Klien/Liuzzi in the 2005 rotational scheme fiasco, before they bough Minardi. Then briefly Doornbos for 3 races the following year.

To be fair if we count from 2007 onwards, when they had 2 teams and stabilized their lineup with Webber/Coulthard, it's only been 7 seasons (including this one) and they've had a grand total of, umm, 3 drivers. It's not a big enough sample to conclude anything.

Edited by noikeee, 23 May 2013 - 21:27.

[noikeee]

Webber is proof of that assumption I presume?

True, the car doesn't look as dominant in his hands as in Vettel's, doesn't it?

Then I'll go one step further and imagine that, yeah, any of Jaime, Dan, JEV would be able to get the car within 30, 20, maybe even 10 points of Webber over the season. They're competent enough for that, sure, I would agree. ... But that's 30, 20, 10 points less RBR would have, which vindicates their decision to stick to Webber so far.

Edited by noikeee, 23 May 2013 - 21:35.

[scheivlak]

Did they not nearly lose Vettel to BMW who was a test driver for them? I'm not sure of the details but I thought they severed their connection with the German when he took up the test driver contract and were lucky to get him back into the STR. BMW could have used his contract to keep hold of him but didn't.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Vettel was 'loaned' to BMW until the end of 2008. So BMW could have held him to his contract - but it was a contract on loan..... And immediately after the 2007 USGP both Marko and Mateschitz made it clear that they wanted Vettel back ASAP, and he was offered a contract for 2008 even before either Speed or Liuzzi were fired at all.

See e.g.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/60569 and
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/61232

and earlier: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/58650 and as an interesting sideline http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/58599

Edited by scheivlak, 23 May 2013 - 21:46.

[ChiltonsCats]

they have too high standards for Toro Rosso drivers is the issue, Vettel's win for them was a one off, you aren't gonna get that again most likely with another driver so they need to stop expecting their drivers to do that before getting a chance.

Algesuari had a superb season for them in 2011 given the car and compared to his team-mate, but they ditched him despite him still being young for 2 new young drivers, as of yet neither looks as good as Algesuari yet alone Vettel, so they are giving them time (which I think is good, though I would have liked to have seen if Algesuari could have kept up his development within that team too)

Toro Rosso aren't gonna win races unless something mad happens so they should just be viewing diver performance sensibly in terms of the car and compared to their team-mate, anything else is daft.

[mattferg]

With all the rumors of Kimi possible signing for RBR made me think about how important their young driver program is. Obviously this is just speculation, but the whole point of Torro Rosso was to evaluate a young drivers potential for a race seat at Red Bull. Of course not everyone can be a Vettel(Multiple WDC) or a Webber(Multiple Race Winner), but it does ask a lot of questions.

Are they bringing in the right drivers?

Are the drivers they bring in good enough to be race winners?

If no to either question than what are they doing wrong?

How are they evaluating drivers and their skills?




On face value though its an easy win for Kimi against any of the Torro Rosso drivers. Talented? Check. Race Winner? Check. Champion? Check. But if they would rather take a proven driver than a driver with potential then what is the point of buying your own team and bringing in drivers? I know that with your own team you can have a better understanding of how the drivers operate and can better evaluate them, but whats the point if you go with someone else and then drop the drivers afterwards?

Ferrari snapped up champion Alonso and McLaren snapped up champion Button instead of going for their young drivers, despite McLaren having a good history with theirs. Perez was a Ferrari young driver not McLaren and Ferrari also snapped up Kimi instead of taking a young driver.

Only Massa and Hamilton came out of both McLaren and Ferrari's young driver programs respectively, and that was before Vettel was given the RBR seat, so actually I'd say it's been more successful recently than either McLaren or Ferrari's, and as such they're far more of a farce.

[discover23]

It is a farce because I have no idea why Alguersari is not driving.

[EthanM]

they have too high standards for Toro Rosso drivers is the issue, Vettel's win for them was a one off, you aren't gonna get that again most likely with another driver so they need to stop expecting their drivers to do that before getting a chance.

They are not. They expect a spark from the drivers, not wins. Vettel was a normal young driver in 2008 until Valencia, then something clicked and he stepped up a gear consistently to the point he was outperforming the "alpha" red bull team consistently after Valencia. That's what they are looking for, the click, the progress in the driver. They are not looking for an STR to win a race (or to suddenly leapfrog RBR) they are looking for one of the drivers to show that, call it whatever you want ...

[turssi]

It is a farce because I have no idea why Alguersari is not driving.

Would it be better if Dr. Marko phoned you and told you the reasons and logic of their decisions?

I think their program is shaping up to give 2 years for young drivers to meet the criteria. Check out the nice Ricciardo interview on f1.com for the reason I think this.

Anyway, dropping Alguersuari & Buemi was bad PR the way they did it, but if and when they want to keep their driver development program internal, then for sure they must be allowed to do so.

[Rybo]

Ferrari snapped up champion Alonso and McLaren snapped up champion Button instead of going for their young drivers, despite McLaren having a good history with theirs. Perez was a Ferrari young driver not McLaren and Ferrari also snapped up Kimi instead of taking a young driver.

Only Massa and Hamilton came out of both McLaren and Ferrari's young driver programs respectively, and that was before Vettel was given the RBR seat, so actually I'd say it's been more successful recently than either McLaren or Ferrari's, and as such they're far more of a farce.

There are a lot of politics involved with those decisions as well. Take Bianchi and Perez, both members of the Ferrari Academy, but while Ferrari let Perez go, they put Bianchi in a Marussia for experience. I think that RBR have an incredible advantage over the other top teams in they have a "young" image, but for some reason they aren't doing the right things with that information.

[Jimisgod]

Neither Red Bull nor any other team want him?

But they did for 2012, Marko just proved to be the **** we always knew he was and dumped him from the 2012 seat too late for Jamie to sign a deal. By 2013, the market was saturated and he was forgotten.

The bad apple in the RBR barrel has and always will be Helmut. He couldn't help but inflame **** with Webber after several embarrassing instances of being disrespectful towards the Toro Rosso drivers.

I doubt another champion will come of the Young Driver Program until Helmut is surgically removed from his baby, like a hemorrhoid.

Edited by Jimisgod, 24 May 2013 - 00:40.

[ardbeg]

Seem to be easy to badtalk Helmut, still most people that does it hardly knows anything about him and what he does. F1 is not a charity and I am sure many drivers have been treated worse than Algesuari. I am quite sure they had their reasons to do what they did and I am also quite sure that none of us will ever know exactly what those reasons were. I am certaun that, if Algesuari really is that great, he will have a fairly successful racing career. Just not in F1 with Red Bull.