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Ferrari "offering" to give Perez' spot back


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#1 Andrew Hope

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:52

Almost hate to start a thread like this because I really don't give two shits either way who wins in F1, I just hope for a good race, but was it just me or were the radio transmissions we heard from Ferrari during the red flag kinda strange? Normally with incidents like that we hear radio shots with the engineer saying something like "The Stewards/Charlie/whoever have told us we need to give the spot back", but the Ferrari transmissions were all about taking offers to the stewards and trying to make a deal. Am I missing something? How can a team make offers to the stewards? Surely they just go to the officials and await judgement? Dunno what that was all about, but I was pretty tired during the race so I might've been reading it all wrong.

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#2 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:54

They probably meant it as a 'we'll give the spot back if you dont give Alonso a drive-through' way.

Which is fine, I would think. And fair.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 May 2013 - 20:54.


#3 Tosh

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:59

Good. A distraction from the main topic :D

Ferrari offered and they were told that the stewards have the final saying so I guess nothing to really look into.

#4 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:59

The 'offer' had to do something with Ferrari wanting to give the place back to Perez under safety car conditions, which the stewards accepted and thereby Ferrari avoided the risk that other drivers behind would try to attack Alonso if he gave the place back to Perez in a racing situation.

#5 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:06

The 'offer' had to do something with Ferrari wanting to give the place back to Perez under safety car conditions, which the stewards accepted and thereby Ferrari avoided the risk that other drivers behind would try to attack Alonso if he gave the place back to Perez in a racing situation.

That makes sense, too.

#6 fabr68

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:09

I think this whole radio discussion happened because Alonso did not have time to give the place back, as the red flags came right after cutting the chicane.

Had Alonso run several laps after the incident not giving the place back. The Stewards would have either contact Ferrari to tell Alonso to give the place back or handed a driver through penalty.

We have seen this before when teams are contacted and ask their drivers to give places back.

#7 SenorSjon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:18

I think this whole radio discussion happened because Alonso did not have time to give the place back, as the red flags came right after cutting the chicane.

Had Alonso run several laps after the incident not giving the place back. The Stewards would have either contact Ferrari to tell Alonso to give the place back or handed a driver through penalty.

We have seen this before when teams are contacted and ask their drivers to give places back.

IMO Perez never gained a place to lose, he just barged by. Alonso was avoiding a collision

#8 ArkZ

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:22

Ferrari wanted to avoid Silverstone 2010 situation (drive-through), but IMO nothing would be taken against Alonso as Perez didn't overtake him, they were side by side (even Ferrari front wing was ahead before Alonso moved), Perez whined but he did cut chicane in even more clear situation with Button and stayed ahead of him , Button later regained his position. Was there even usual "driver (number x) under investigation for..."

#9 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:30

Yea, I cringe a bit at the wording of 'giving a place back' when Perez was never actually ahead, but whatever. Charlie had decided at that point and to fight it would have just meant a drive-through.

#10 AlexS

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:35

Precisely, the manipulation of results by the stewards or Charlie Whiting, who decided to once more to be inconsistent is amazing.

And Domenicalli once again shows he is unable to defend Ferrari interests.

#11 Fastcake

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:35

Yea, I cringe a bit at the wording of 'giving a place back' when Perez was never actually ahead, but whatever. Charlie had decided at that point and to fight it would have just meant a drive-through.


As Brundle oft-says though, failing to lose a place by cutting a chicane can be as bad as gaining one.

#12 ZooL

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:38

The 'offer' had to do something with Ferrari wanting to give the place back to Perez under safety car conditions, which the stewards accepted and thereby Ferrari avoided the risk that other drivers behind would try to attack Alonso if he gave the place back to Perez in a racing situation.

This should not have been allowed IMO, it's not in the rule book.

#13 ArkZ

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:40

Yea, I cringe a bit at the wording of 'giving a place back' when Perez was never actually ahead, but whatever. Charlie had decided at that point and to fight it would have just meant a drive-through.


I think McLaren went to ask Charlie, but he has not the final word. If Ferrari would't decide to give Perez place stewards would investigate that (probably). In that case Ferrari wanted to lose one place than risk of loosing all points, or risk Perez getting mad by that and crashing into Alonso.

Edited by ArkZ, 26 May 2013 - 21:45.


#14 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 22:03

Yea, I cringe a bit at the wording of 'giving a place back' when Perez was never actually ahead, but whatever. Charlie had decided at that point and to fight it would have just meant a drive-through.

Point of order, and all that, and I'm sure you already know the difference, but Charlie simply reports incidents to the Stewards who are the final arbiters. Charlie doesn't 'fight' anything.

I think what Ferrari did was simple pragmatism of the sort which ultimately wins you world championships when those few points lost from a drive-through matter the most.

#15 eff1fan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 00:59

Almost hate to start a thread like this because I really don't give two shits either way who wins in F1, I just hope for a good race, but was it just me or were the radio transmissions we heard from Ferrari during the red flag kinda strange? Normally with incidents like that we hear radio shots with the engineer saying something like "The Stewards/Charlie/whoever have told us we need to give the spot back", but the Ferrari transmissions were all about taking offers to the stewards and trying to make a deal. Am I missing something? How can a team make offers to the stewards? Surely they just go to the officials and await judgement? Dunno what that was all about, but I was pretty tired during the race so I might've been reading it all wrong.


...the only message that would have made sense to hear from Ferrari should have been...
"OK Nando here it is, we'll go to the Stewarts and offer to give back the position And do a drive-through, plus, we'll throw in Massa, Domanicali and LDM, if we can get Checo back"

#16 baddog

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:01

I am usually Mr hardcore on this one (cut the chicane with another car inside a second and you should yield the place, you failed. Either that or no more drive-through chicanes) But in this case I'm actually more on Alonso's side, as the driver overtaking can pretty much force the other guy onto the chicane then take the place which is unfair driving.

Also Perez is a lunatic as seen in his other moves in the race.

#17 SUPRAF1

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:50

I misread this topic title meaning Ferrari wants to offer their second seat to Perez...

I thought they keep radio messages short and concise during racing so the driver isn't distracted, but if he's cruising around behind a SC or waiting out a Red Flag they can talk much more.

#18 Kingshark

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:59

Ferrari is just that damn smart. :p

#19 grunge

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 04:47

Nothing to ponder really in those radio messages..Ferrari wanted to do the swap behind the SC rather than after the SC.and the Stewards rightfully agreed...No controversies there

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#20 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:56

The 'offer' had to do something with Ferrari wanting to give the place back to Perez under safety car conditions, which the stewards accepted and thereby Ferrari avoided the risk that other drivers behind would try to attack Alonso if he gave the place back to Perez in a racing situation.

This.

Point of order, and all that, and I'm sure you already know the difference, but Charlie simply reports incidents to the Stewards who are the final arbiters. Charlie doesn't 'fight' anything.

I think what Ferrari did was simple pragmatism of the sort which ultimately wins you world championships when those few points lost from a drive-through matter the most.

Your pro-Ferrari bias is sickening.

Just kidding. You're right. I'm no Ferrari fan but they handled the situation very well.

#21 pacificquay

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:30

, we'll go to the Stewarts


Jackie and Paul making the decisions now?

#22 Jon83

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:05

No idea where Alonso was supposed to go so don't see why he was forced to give up his place.

I heard Martin Whitmarsh talking during the red-flag period and I can't remember whether Ted Kravitz asked him if he expected Alonso to just disappear.

#23 Treads

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:31

In my heart of hearts I don't think Perez was past, he simply got enough along side to stop Fred from turning in.

HOWEVER had Fred had the inclination, he could also have stayed on the brakes, let Perez go and made the chicane. So he only stayed ahead by cutting the chicane.

For me it's a really borderline one, 50-50. Totally subjective.

Once the decision was made, Ferrari just didn't want to get a drive through, they made this offer which was accepted and didn't lose out. Assuming the original decision is correct they handled it well.

#24 Jon83

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:52

In my heart of hearts I don't think Perez was past, he simply got enough along side to stop Fred from turning in.

HOWEVER had Fred had the inclination, he could also have stayed on the brakes, let Perez go and made the chicane. So he only stayed ahead by cutting the chicane.

For me it's a really borderline one, 50-50. Totally subjective.

Once the decision was made, Ferrari just didn't want to get a drive through, they made this offer which was accepted and didn't lose out. Assuming the original decision is correct they handled it well.


I think by the time Alonso realised Perez was that close, he had two options. Crash and potentially see both of them out of the race or cut the chicane and live another day.

It was a fairly late move by Perez IIRC. Had they been side-by-side going down into the chicane then fine. But that was never the case.

As you say, subjective stuff though.

#25 sennafan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 18:28

I think by the time Alonso realised Perez was that close, he had two options. Crash and potentially see both of them out of the race or cut the chicane and live another day.

It was a fairly late move by Perez IIRC. Had they been side-by-side going down into the chicane then fine. But that was never the case.

As you say, subjective stuff though.


It doesn't mater what you ,Fernando or Ferrari thinks of the move when the stewards decide you have to give up the place you do it or you get a drive through penalty.