334 replies to this topic

[JaredS]

I would prefer if the braking issue made more sense. It was fine in China, why is it a problem again? It's disappointing. I've never really trusted CI
brakes, however, I don't think they suit Pirellis.

I don't believe the issue is the brakes themselves. There were some other recent quotes that indicated it had more to do with not being able to get the fronts into the working temperature. It's quite an unique problem for Lewis, as he's historically not had an issue with warming up tyres. You expect it with Jenson, but not Lewis. Clearly it's a strange situation for him and not one he's experienced at McLaren so up to him and his engineers to work together to solve it.

[Grundle]

I don't believe the issue is the brakes themselves. There were some other recent quotes that indicated it had more to do with not being able to get the fronts into the working temperature. It's quite an unique problem for Lewis, as he's historically not had an issue with warming up tyres. You expect it with Jenson, but not Lewis. Clearly it's a strange situation for him and not one he's experienced at McLaren so up to him and his engineers to work together to solve it.

That would make sense because China is a front limited track, the one track he was happy with the brakes

[peroa]

I don't believe the issue is the brakes themselves. There were some other recent quotes that indicated it had more to do with not being able to get the fronts into the working temperature. It's quite an unique problem for Lewis, as he's historically not had an issue with warming up tyres. You expect it with Jenson, but not Lewis. Clearly it's a strange situation for him and not one he's experienced at McLaren so up to him and his engineers to work together to solve it.

It's not strange at all, the CI brakes operate at a higher operating temp than Brembo, that's why they can't use them as they will heat the rear tyres even more.
With using Brembo they keep the tyre temp thereabouts but with two negatives for Lew as it seems:

a) losing brake feel
b) trouble warming the fronts

After 3 years NR is used to taking massive care of his rear tyres and without a doubt his team and him have got his setups and technique spot on.

LH now has to get there and Monaco showed his on a good way in doing so.

Edited by peroa, 28 May 2013 - 15:36.

[FastnLoud]

It's not strange at all, the CI brakes operate at a higher operating temp than Brembo, that's why they can't use them as they will heat the rear tyres even more.
With using Brembo they keep the tyre temp thereabouts but with two negatives for Lew as it seems:

a) losing brake feel
b) trouble warming the fronts

After 3 years NR is used to taking massive care of his rear tyres and without a doubt his team and him have got his setups and technique spot on.

LH now has to get there and Monaco showed his on a good way in doing so.

Good point

[JaredS]

It's not strange at all, the CI brakes operate at a higher operating temp than Brembo, that's why they can't use them as they will heat the rear tyres even more.
With using Brembo they keep the tyre temp thereabouts but with two negatives for Lew as it seems:

a) losing brake feel
b) trouble warming the fronts

After 3 years NR is used to taking massive care of his rear tyres and without a doubt his team and him have got his setups and technique spot on.

LH now has to get there and Monaco showed his on a good way in doing so.

Brake bias is usually 60% to the fronts. Also re. his comments about not being able to get temp into the front tyres.

[PurpleHam]

Awesome line by Lewis. Will you now do the same -- and stop blaming the car, the mechanics, who is 5 secs up the road and who's down in Q3 etc.?

Lewis did fine in Monaco, but seen Nico's pace all weekend, we might argue he had a 'bad' Q3 (all relatively spoken) -- and almost lost the pole for that.

"My problems have been there since the first race," admits Lewis. "Even in winter testing I was struggling, particularly with the brakes. The set-up on the car in terms of brake cylinders and steering wheel functions is a lot different to what I had [at McLaren] where I'd been for years and where it was always the same.

"That's been a weakness for me so far this year - even in the first few races, but particularly in the last three where I've been pretty poor. This weekend was very tough for me."

It's interesting that Hamilton identifies braking as a key part of his struggle. Just as at McLaren he has a preference for Carbone Industrie brake discs rather than the Brembos used by Rosberg in conjunction with the Brembo calipers that are a standard part of both Mercedes.

Hamilton's braking style is very aggressive - which has been a core part of his skill ever since his junior days. Here's what his Formula Renault and F3 entrant John Booth said about this: "He is fantastic at using the full power of the brakes from high speed, but then modulating the pressure as the downforce comes off as the car slows - and that's absolutely the key to getting the best from a high downforce car."

Hamilton prefers the combination of stopping power and pedal feel of the Carbone Industrie discs over those of the more common Brembos. The Brembos are said to give more feedback through the pedal, allowing easier modulation.

But Lewis found at McLaren that with the right size and design of brake master cylinder, he could get the modulation he needs together with the higher braking power of the Carbone Industrie discs. He has been struggling to get that same combination at Mercedes. Since the start of the season the team has been trying to give him that elusive combination with redesigns of the brake cylinders, but to date it has not worked for him. Rosberg has remained on the standard Brembo caliper/Brembo disc combination and is quite happy with it.

Edited by PurpleHam, 28 May 2013 - 16:40.

[Watkins74]

Interesting. During testing we talked here about Mercedes switching to CI because Hamilton liked them and Rosberg also had CI. When did they switch back to Brembo?

[PurpleHam]

"I just wasn't good enough over the weekend," said Hamilton. "I've lots to sort out on my side of the garage, and within myself, and I'll take time to do that.

"At the moment I'm not quick enough, not on it enough, so I need to get on it."

Mercedes' on-track performance on the streets of Monte Carlo was overshadowed by the in-season tyre test that they conducted for Pirelli earlier this month.

That, though, is not of concern for Hamilton as he just wants to focus on doing his best.

"We were required to do some work, we did some work, it was good fun," he said. "Right now I'm not concerned about it, that's for the team to worry about. I just have to focus on myself and try and get my act together."

As I said, he mans up more than most other drivers. You don't get a more straightforward admission of not doing a good enough job in an identical car as that. I don't see any following up by what some call reasons and others might call excuses. Though no doubt some of those others try real hard to find excuses where there are none. I guess for some of those others, nothing short of "I'm simply an inherently slower and less skilful driver than my team mate" will suffice.

The thing with Lewis is he will not blame his equipment when interviewed, he'll just blame himself and say he's not done a good job, because he doesn't want to sound like a moaning bitch blaming his car, he learnt not to do that from Button...

Hamilton is fully aware of where the problems are, and it aint with his talent, he can't use the brakes he's used all his career at Merc so he's trying to find a solution and a setup he likes with the Brembo's which come as standard on his new car, maybe next season when he will truly have a car designed around him he will get the Carbone Industrie brakes back on the car.

[PurpleHam]

Interesting. During testing we talked here about Mercedes switching to CI because Hamilton liked them and Rosberg also had CI. When did they switch back to Brembo?

And here's why he got beat to Pole...

But at Monaco, where any error under braking is going to put you in the barriers, it was not excessive heat that Hamilton was suffering with - but the very reverse. "I just could not get my front tyres switched on all through practice and into qualifying. That's the first time I've ever experienced that. The only time my front tyres switched on was in the second and third sectors of my final lap in Q3."

In both these sectors he was actually faster than Rosberg, but not by enough to overcome the deficit he had incurred in the first sector where his cold tyres gave him a lack of front grip.

[MortenF1]

I'm confused by this too. Teams and drivers have changed brake materials for as long as I can remember - why can't Hamilton run CI? Do they really produce som much heat that it's a problem for the tires? And as Watkins74 wrote, didn't he use CI earlier in the season?

[bauss]

the brake heating theory may also be backed up by the fact that LH lost all his time vs Nico in first sector (most likely first corner), and gained all the way after that (though not enough).

But yea, he needs to get on with it now... and figure things out, didn't know he is now using Brembo, thought he was still using his CI. That does explain things, hope he figures it out soon.

[PurpleHam]

the brake heating theory may also be backed up by the fact that LH lost all his time vs Nico in first sector (most likely first corner), and gained all the way after that (though not enough).

But yea, he needs to get on with it now... and figure things out, didn't know he is now using Brembo, thought he was still using his CI. That does explain things, hope he figures it out soon.

That is exactly why he lost pole, after the first sector he had the heat, everything was upto temp and the laptime came to him.

"I lacked confidence to brake late enough. It's nothing really to do with the engineers, it's just to do with a feeling with me. It's difficult really to explain but I've just not been on it all weekend. It's not through not being focussed or centred, but just being comfortable in the car. Here you need 100% confidence and I always had that in the past. But not this weekend."

It's a complex chicken-and-egg situation: don't get the brake heat and the tyre doesn't get hot enough, then it has no grip so you can't brake late enough. Conversely, get the tyre temps and the braking is better, the brakes get hotter etc. The trick is to get that process to a state of equilibrium where the braking heat is helping the tyre to remain at the optimum temperature.

[peroa]

Brake bias is usually 60% to the fronts. Also re. his comments about not being able to get temp into the front tyres.

And? Overall they produce less heat.
It's about the balance between rear and front brake and rear and front tyre temp.
Since they're on the edge with rear tyre temp every °C less will help.

Edited by peroa, 28 May 2013 - 17:38.

[peroa]

Interesting. During testing we talked here about Mercedes switching to CI because Hamilton liked them and Rosberg also had CI. When did they switch back to Brembo?

AFAIK and was reported they changed brake material for China to CI, LH's preferred brakes.

[MortenF1]

...and then back again to Brembo after?

Btw, is Carbon industrie a trademark, or the company who produces them? Or both? Couldn't find a website.

Edited by race addicted, 28 May 2013 - 17:26.

[peroa]

Seems like.

[Watkins74]

And here's why he got beat to Pole...

But at Monaco, where any error under braking is going to put you in the barriers, it was not excessive heat that Hamilton was suffering with - but the very reverse. "I just could not get my front tyres switched on all through practice and into qualifying. That's the first time I've ever experienced that. The only time my front tyres switched on was in the second and third sectors of my final lap in Q3."

In both these sectors he was actually faster than Rosberg, but not by enough to overcome the deficit he had incurred in the first sector where his cold tyres gave him a lack of front grip.

So what your saying is that Lewis had his brake bias adjusted to far to the rears. Damn he makes a lot of little errors.






j/k no one get all heated. Just a joke.

[robefc]

That is exactly why he lost pole, after the first sector he had the heat, everything was upto temp and the laptime came to him.

"I lacked confidence to brake late enough. It's nothing really to do with the engineers, it's just to do with a feeling with me. It's difficult really to explain but I've just not been on it all weekend. It's not through not being focussed or centred, but just being comfortable in the car. Here you need 100% confidence and I always had that in the past. But not this weekend."

It's a complex chicken-and-egg situation: don't get the brake heat and the tyre doesn't get hot enough, then it has no grip so you can't brake late enough. Conversely, get the tyre temps and the braking is better, the brakes get hotter etc. The trick is to get that process to a state of equilibrium where the braking heat is helping the tyre to remain at the optimum temperature.

Sources for all the quotes you are posting please, apologies if I've missed them.

[baddog]

So he never had a car which wasn't great under braking before? Merc guys never had a car which WAS great under braking. Sounds like he is learning what it is like to drive for a team who lack in some areas.

[MortenF1]

So why can't they change supplier?? Is the effect it has on tyre temps that different?
I know Williams and McLaren have changed back and forth to accommodate drivers needs.

[pingu666]

itll be more than just the disc and pads, theres complex systems to manage the pressure changes and stuff

[TomNokoe]

So he never had a car which wasn't great under braking before? Merc guys never had a car which WAS great under braking. Sounds like he is learning what it is like to drive for a team who lack in some areas.

Lewis was mighty on the brakes in GP2 with equal cars - the famous Turkey race springs to mind, but also his double win at the Nurburgring (when he won the feature race after incurring a drive through) also showcased this skill. It is also why he has been historically strong at places like Canada, China and Abu Dhabi and historically not so at places like Suzuka. No doubt about it, Hamilton is good on the brakes regardless of what car he is in- I'd say better than most. So his brake issues are really going to hurt him. The W04 can't be that bad under braking after decent performances in China and Malaysia, alongside a pole in Bahrain.

[tkulla]

So why can't they change supplier?? Is the effect it has on tyre temps that different?
I know Williams and McLaren have changed back and forth to accommodate drivers needs.

It's true that in the past teammates have used different brake materials, but it's probably not as prevalent now. Using the "hotter" brakes makes sense for teams with natually "cooler" cars (Lotus) while using the cooler Brembo brakes makes sense for the hotter cars (Mercedes).

Last year McLaren had a "cooler" car and Jenson had to switch over to C.I. as part of the solution to his temperature window issue.

Does anyone have a list of who is using which this year?

I would bet that McLaren are back to Brembo since Button and Perez have traditionally used those.

Has Nico always been a Brembo man, even at Williams?

[halifaxf1fan]

Aren't Hamilton and Rosberg using the same brakes? How is this a disadvantage to Hamilton?

Or is he looking for a better system than Rosberg as a means to be able to beat him?

[SophieB]

Mark Hughes has an interesting column for Sky this morning going into the Lewis Vs his brakes problems in some detail for those who are interested.

It's interesting that Hamilton identifies braking as a key part of his struggle. Just as at McLaren he has a preference for Carbone Industrie brake discs rather than the Brembos used by Rosberg in conjunction with the Brembo calipers that are a standard part of both Mercedes. Hamilton's braking style is very aggressive - which has been a core part of his skill ever since his junior days. Here's what his Formula Renault and F3 entrant John Booth said about this: "He is fantastic at using the full power of the brakes from high speed, but then modulating the pressure as the downforce comes off as the car slows - and that's absolutely the key to getting the best from a high downforce car.

Speaking more broadly, not really feeling as downbeat as many at Hamilton's so-so start. I think he'll turn it around. I reckon it seems worse because he's unusual in being open about it when he feels things aren't meeting the standards he sets himself. I've seen this called a weakness, in the press and here in the thread about how he should be more defiant but I think it's actually one of the things that makes him so appealing to some fans. By allowing people in at the time of the 'downs' so to speak, it makes any upturn in fortunes all the more satisfying. We're sharing the journey each step of the way. I swear watching some of Lewis's past race wins, they've felt like *I* won 'em.

Compare and contrast with say, Felipe Massa. When he was (apparently) on the point of being let go by Ferrari, he was still maintaining fiercely to the press how he was doing totally fine, completely believed in his talents with no doubts at all. After he recovered his pace at the end of 2012 then he tried to make the audience retrospectively share in his triumphant fight back from adversity by telling us all that stuff he'd said previously had been bollocks and he'd been riddled with doubts all along. As a story, that is so much less emotionally satisfying. This isn't to knock Massa's way of doing it in any way, mind. I just chose him because he was the first driver who sprang to mind doing this. It's the most common approach and it has some obvious advantages. I just find Hamilton's unusual approach here hugely refreshing, and from a 'sport-as-drama' point of view, more appealing.

[SgtPepperoni]

Different drivers » different styles. Hamilton is also still very much familiarising himself.

Not true. He says so himself. He says he's happy with the car and team and it's down to him to up his game if he wants to match his team mate. It appears you Hamilton apologists invent things as you go along.

[MortenF1]

Not true. He says so himself. He says he's happy with the car and team and it's down to him to up his game if he wants to match his team mate. It appears you Hamilton apologists invent things as you go along.

Congratulations on somehow being able to post that four minutes after SophieB posted snippets from Hughes' article where he discusses exactly this issue. It's widely known.
Is Hughes a "Hamilton apologist?"

[GlenP]

It is all very interesting about Hamilton's brakes. But I don't really see the relevance to the discussion, other than some insight as to the difference between cars of different manufacturers. It is sensible to expect some time to adapt when switching teams, not that this factor was taken into account in any of Hamilton's previous team-mates' case.

So Hamilton is good but not perfect. That's not news to me.

Rosberg is a very good too, and very confident and technical with it. Also no surprise.

[malibu]

Hamilton :

"There's not really much more to learn with the team or the car. There is just more for me to improve on."

hamilton focused on his pace

[EvanRainer]

Gee, I didn't know trail-braking was some really special technique that only Hamilton knows how to use.

Unbelievable.

I thought most people had accepted by now that Hamilton is not the driving god that they sold you. He is "just" another very fast talented driver, which is why he is matched by Rosberg, who is just as good. Just deal with it and stop looking for excuses.

[MortenF1]

If you've actually raced, missing the feel from the brakes is something you can easily relate to.
We know who hasn't now.

[bauss]

if the brake is a legit issue, ham will figure it out at some point and start to consistently show better speed...

if its not and its just Rosberg being faster, status quo will remain throughout the season... we will find out.

[JKDesign]

Martin Brundle commented in the race, that Lewis looked immense on the brakes, when he was chasing down Webber.

[EvanRainer]

My problem is not claiming that Lewis has some kind of brake issue. My problem is claims like if it wasn't for said brake issue, Hamilton would be braking 10 times or whatever better than everyone else because zomg he is such a braking god. That is ridiculous.

And I am specifically referring to that quote by Mark Hughes. What he described as some kind of special skill Hamilton uses is basically trail-braking. His claim that Hamilton somehow brakes much harder and later than everyone else is laughable.

It's always the same story. Like, Hamilton would be 1 sec faster than anyone else but the tyres are holding him back...now the brakes are holding him back. It's sad. Have you considered that maybe he just isn't that great?

And every time people bring up GP2, aka amateur hour, you just have to laugh.

[Seven]

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/109342.html

Hamilton:

"It's been this way since the first race and even in winter testing I was struggling," he said. "The set-up I have on the car in terms of brake cylinders and the steering wheel is very different to what I had before. I was very comfortable after being there [at McLaren] for years and I was used to it being always the same. That's been a slight weakness for me this year in the first few races and particularly in the last three I've been pretty poor. This one was one of the toughest for me so far."


"When I was at McLaren I had been there for a very long time and I had 100% confidence in the car, particularly at this track [Monaco] where you need 100% confidence in the car beneath you. It worked will in the past, it's just that I've been struggling gaining that confidence and that means I can't brake late enough."

[FastnLoud]

My problem is not claiming that Lewis has some kind of brake issue. My problem is claims like if it wasn't for said brake issue, Hamilton would be braking 10 times or whatever better than everyone else because zomg he is such a braking god. That is ridiculous.

Don't know anyone who has claimed that, he does brake late though and it's always been one of his strong points

http://videobam.com/snfmp

[EvanRainer]

Don't know anyone who has claimed that, he does brake late though and it's always been one of his strong points

http://videobam.com/snfmp

But isn't the whole argument essentially that he is slower than Rosberg because (at least partly) of said issue?

[WitnessX]

Hard braking not going well with the Pirellis seems like a plausible theory. However, it is a bit sad if tyres are being ruined just by hard braking without locking up, but that's for another thread.

Yes it could also be exhaust blowing technique or a myriad of other technical or non-technical issues we can all speculate on. However, the brakes theory has gained traction for the simple fact that Lewis himself mentioned it several races back where he felt and hoped there may have been a breakthrough. We've heard the Carbon Industrie vs Brembo brakes discussed earlier. Now Mark Hughes has written a detailed article. It might be completely wrong, but it's not the same as a couple of forumers randomly inventing a theory such as exhaust blowing technique etc.

I agree with you that Lewis is adaptable. Some drivers that aren't, such as Jenson last year, go completely to sea when they don't feel comfortable with the car. So a few tenths off is not too bad. Of course nobody would expect even the most adaptable driver to function at 100% when he's not comfortable with the car. The true test of adaptability is one - they minimise the lap time lost due to the discomfort, and two - they sort out the issues to become comfortable reasonably quickly.

The problem was he had to change to Carbon Industry brake materials (from Brembo) in Barcelona which according to Pat Fry have a higher braking temperature and are suitable for tyre temperature control. It took the engineers three races until the engineers realised the cooling/temperature control was incorrect for his style of driving and was overcooking the rear tyres. Lets not forget that Button jumped in a McLaren in 2010 and won his second race and at the end of the Barcelona GP he was heading the WDC table, its nothing to do with adaptabilty, its about getting the car to work for you.

The point is that this is the first time in F1 that Lewis has raced a car with a different "DNA", inevitably there are going to be newly encountered tracks and conditions (Barcelona race conditions were different to those encountered in winter testing), this means they still have to find the optimum car settings, on this car, that suit his preferred driving style, it also means that he may have to make a compromise on his set-ups.

[EvanRainer]

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/109342.html

Hamilton:

"It's been this way since the first race and even in winter testing I was struggling," he said. "The set-up I have on the car in terms of brake cylinders and the steering wheel is very different to what I had before. I was very comfortable after being there [at McLaren] for years and I was used to it being always the same. That's been a slight weakness for me this year in the first few races and particularly in the last three I've been pretty poor. This one was one of the toughest for me so far."


"When I was at McLaren I had been there for a very long time and I had 100% confidence in the car, particularly at this track [Monaco] where you need 100% confidence in the car beneath you. It worked will in the past, it's just that I've been struggling gaining that confidence and that means I can't brake late enough."

See, I never mind drivers saying such things. The problem is when fans take them and try to use them as excuses. Lewis not being 100% comfortable is not an excuse. Tough. Other drivers have to adapt all the time.

It begins to annoy people when it becomes IF it wasn't for this...and IF it wasn't for that...he would be faster then x driver.

[EvanRainer]

I fully agree with your sentiment i.e claims of Hamilton braking 10 times or whatever better zomg braking god. Except that I don't specially see such claims, rather that this might be making the tenth or two difference to his current times.

I also agree that at F1 level, the skill that Mark Hughes describes about driving a downforce car and tapering off braking force with reducing downforce and judging it just right, whilst impressive at F3 level is par for course at GP2 and F1 level.

However what Mark Hughes describes is not actually trail braking, which you seem to have confused. Trail braking is carrying the brakes into the corner and even approaching the apex i.e combining steering input with braking, which actually goes against basic theory of getting all the braking done in a straight line before starting to turn in. It's difficult to do and risky. Yes F1 drivers do it all the time, but even amongst them there is a difference between the levels they can combine braking and steering input. Trail braking causes the rear to go very light and can easily snap into oversteer. Drivers that aren't comfortable with an unstable rear and confident in their ability to feel and catch it won't be able to do it as well as those who are very comfortable with oversteer under braking.

I think Hughes claim that Lewis brakes later than most is reasonably accurate. He tends to do very, very well on the hard braking tracks such as Canada where he tends to find chunks of time compared to his team mates generally being anywhere from half a second to 1 second a lap quicker, even almost half a second quicker than Alonso in 2007. The coming race in Canada will be a good indicator, because if he's comfortable with the brakes and car then he's going to be very quick - it's quite simply his specialty track. If Nico is quicker in quali there, that would be pretty telling really.

I still don't see it the way you do though - as it being some sort of excuse for him. It quite simply isn't. It's his responsibility to work with his engineers and find a solution. That is afterall one of the reasons he moved to Merc, for the new challenge and growth.

I disagree on certain parts. Yes trail-braking is carrying brake into the corner while turning in, but I wouldn't say it's that risky and certainly not difficult for an F1 level driver. Trail braking also means you are easing off the brake as you start to turn with the aim being to keep the car stable while carrying the braking into the corner. Snap unload and oversteer is what would happen if you screwed it up, hence the risk, but it's not the goal. It also has nothing with liking the rear or not unstable. Drivers who like to throw around the rear, if anything would induce more unloading to create more snap oversteer.

My issue with the Hughes quote was that he described it as braking really hard and then modulating the brake as some kind of special skill. Because other F1 drivers treat the brakes like an on off switch? What's next, throttle control is a special skill too?

[JaredS]

The problem we have here is that what some people want to suggest is that if Lewis doesn't out-qualify Nico in Canada then this must be evidence that the brakes aren't right for him on this car - whereas most dispassionate observers would conclude that he simply got beat. There does not have to be a special separate reason (i.e.. excuse) - he might just plain old get beat. Nico being quicker in quali can be evidence of just being quicker; no excuses needed.

No, it doesn't mean that it "must be" evidence that the brakes aren't right for him. But when a driver who is known to be extremely quick at a certain track is beaten, then it could be indicative that he's not comfortable with something.

Are there other possibilities? Of course they are.

Also you are drawing quite a strawman there. If Lewis was slower because he is not comfortable with the brakes (as he is publicly saying mind you, notably whilst making it crystal clear that it's his responsibility to solve), then it doesn't mean that he isn't getting beat. It doesn't mean that Nico is simply being quicker. On the contrary, he is getting beat. Nico is quicker.

Last year Jenson being a second slower per lap because of his infamous balance issues doesn't absolve Jenson of responsibility for not solving this issue. Inexcusable frankly for such a cerebral driver of his vast experience to be that inept at both setting up his car AND unable to drive around the problems. A lose on both counts. A renowned tyre whisperer having problems with, lo and behold, tyres! Did anyone, including Jenson's most ardent fans, use tyres and balance as an excuse? Of course not. He was ridiculed for this failure.

So similarly, if Lewis doesn't solve his issues then it's his fault. It's clear he knows that, from his many recent statements of the same. He's already clearly taking responsibility. But just as Jenson being at times a second or more a lap slower was attributed to setup issues, clearly it's not a long bow to draw that a driver of Lewis' calibre, who's established his raw speed against several drivers 2 of which have 3 WDC's between them no less, is not comfortable with something if he's struggling on a track like Canada where he's extremely quick.

[JaredS]

I disagree on certain parts. Yes trail-braking is carrying brake into the corner while turning in, but I wouldn't say it's that risky and certainly not difficult for an F1 level driver. Trail braking also means you are easing off the brake as you start to turn with the aim being to keep the car stable while carrying the braking into the corner. Snap unload and oversteer is what would happen if you screwed it up, hence the risk, but it's not the goal. It also has nothing with liking the rear or not unstable. Drivers who like to throw around the rear, if anything would induce more unloading to create more snap oversteer.

My issue with the Hughes quote was that he described it as braking really hard and then modulating the brake as some kind of special skill. Because other F1 drivers treat the brakes like an on off switch? What's next, throttle control is a special skill too?

You talk of trail-braking as if there is a goal post and you either achieve it or don't. There are actually levels to it and how much one exploits it is set by how well they can predict and control the rear instability. I too can trail brake. That is, I can brake whilst turning into the corner. Can I do it to the extent of a professional racing car driver? Of course not. So even amongst racing car drivers, even amongst F1 drivers, there will be those who can handle higher and higher levels of rear instability. Notice that I'm not talking about liking the rear to be unstable, so not sure why you mentioned it in your reply above? A driver doesn't have to necessarily like it yet can still be very good at handling it.

Again, in the last para of your post above you're failing to recognise that all drivers may be able to do something, but some can do it better than others. Also it's not only Hughes saying this. Rather, it is John Booth a racing car driver himself turned team principal who said that about his brake modulating. Clearly all top drivers can do it, but there are differing levels even amongst them.

http://mccabism.blog...nstability.html

This article is also quite interesting in terms of brake modulation http://jalopnik.com/...nique-is-a-myth
So it seems that there is time to be found in feeling the brakes well, or conversely time to be lost in not feeling them. One of Hughes articles spoke about Lewis being used to Carbon Industrie brakes but coupled with specifically designed brake cylinders to maximise modulation feel from them.

Is this the difference between gaining or losing a couple of tenths for Lewis? Maybe, I don't know. But the way some of you are over-reacting to many of us merely speculating and discussing a technical issue that we didn't invent and was in fact raised by other F1 pundits. Why the freak out because we're speculating over a possible technical issue that has been raised by F1 journalists?

[EvanRainer]

You talk of trail-braking as if there is a goal post and you either achieve it or don't. There are actually levels to it and how much one exploits it is set by how well they can predict and control the rear instability. I too can trail brake. That is, I can brake whilst turning into the corner. Can I do it to the extent of a professional racing car driver? Of course not. So even amongst racing car drivers, even amongst F1 drivers, there will be those who can handle higher and higher levels of rear instability. Notice that I'm not talking about liking the rear to be unstable, so not sure why you mentioned it in your reply above? A driver doesn't have to necessarily like it yet can still be very good at handling it.

Again, in the last para of your post above you're failing to recognise that all drivers may be able to do something, but some can do it better than others. Also it's not only Hughes saying this. Rather, it is John Booth a racing car driver himself turned team principal who said that about his brake modulating. Clearly all top drivers can do it, but there are differing levels even amongst them.

http://mccabism.blog...nstability.html

This article is also quite interesting in terms of brake modulation http://jalopnik.com/...nique-is-a-myth
So it seems that there is time to be found in feeling the brakes well, or conversely time to be lost in not feeling them. One of Hughes articles spoke about Lewis being used to Carbon Industrie brakes but coupled with specifically designed brake cylinders to maximise modulation feel from them.

Is this the difference between gaining or losing a couple of tenths for Lewis? Maybe, I don't know. But the way some of you are over-reacting to many of us merely speculating and discussing a technical issue that we didn't invent and was in fact raised by other F1 pundits. Why the freak out because we're speculating over a possible technical issue that has been raised by F1 journalists?

I don't actually disagree with anything you said there. My problem was with what Hughes said, or rather how he said it and what he was implying, not anything being discussed here regarding that.

And it's obviously not that it's not possible for a component issue to affect the way a driver drives but Hughes was clearly making things up there. He doesn't like the brakes so that doesn't let him modulate the brake? seriously? Because Hughes didn't claim it wasn't letting him do it as well, the way he wrote it it was implying it wasn't letting him use whatever technique he uses at all.

[JaredS]

I don't actually disagree with anything you said there. My problem was with what Hughes said, or rather how he said it and what he was implying, not anything being discussed here regarding that.

And it's obviously not that it's not possible for a component issue to affect the way a driver drives but Hughes was clearly making things up there. He doesn't like the brakes so that doesn't let him modulate the brake? seriously? Because Hughes didn't claim it wasn't letting him do it as well, the way he wrote it it was implying it wasn't letting him use whatever technique he uses at all.

I don't think anyone (or many??) interpreted in that way. Obviously he has to be able to modulate it to some extent. Otherwise he would be severely underbraking or alternatively locking up every corner. So clearly the implication was that he wasn't able to modulate it as well.

Same as the downforce tapering off that Booth was referring to. If a driver doesn't taper off the braking to suit, then he'll lock up. On the other hand, if he errs too much on the side of caution fearing lock up and tapers off too quickly then he leaves lap time on the table. In both cases he's modulating the brakes, but not doing it perfectly. Maybe no driver does it perfectly and only a computer with ABS would get it close to perfect. However it makes sense that some drivers are simply better at getting closer to matching the correct tapering off than others.

In the 6 seasons he's been driving, Lewis has always been fantastic on the brakes, excelling on track with heavy braking zones after a long straight. In fact it has been the higher speed flowing tracks that have been his relative weakness.

Now it seems that this strength is a combination of several factors. The Carbon Industrie brakes seem to have greater potential for maximum retardation than the Brembos, but more difficult to modulate. So drivers who don't feel comfortable modulating it are actually overall less effective in the braking zone, regardless of the CI's higher potential maximum retardation, than running Brembos with less potential maximum retardation but easier modulation allowing them to maximise their own overall braking ability. With Lewis, it seems now that with the right design combination of braking cylinders and size, Lewis was able to get the modulation feel he requires to exploit the higher retardation potential of the CIs.

In Bahrain there seemed to be a breakthrough but obviously all concerned are keeping things very close to their chest so not sure what exactly the issue or solution was/is. Also if they're not running CIs now, why not? Is it due to not sorting out the modulation feel or is it because their higher working temps are heating the tyres up more. No idea.

[halifaxf1fan]

Has to depend on where Lewis is with the brakes doesn't it?

Aren't Rosberg and Hamilton using the same brakes? If so Hamilton isn't at any disadvantage.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 31 May 2013 - 19:56.

[Lamag]

Aren't Rosberg and Hamilton using the same brakes? If so Hamilton isn't at any disadvantage.

You are right, they are using the same brake system. It's all up to Lewis' confidence, nothing more, nothing less.

[undersquare]

You are right, they are using the same brake system. It's all up to Lewis' confidence, nothing more, nothing less.

They all tailor the car to optimise it for themselves, it's part of the skill. It is up to Lewis to do this, the question is will he have got the brakes the way he likes them for Canada where it's especially important? If yes, I predict he'll beat Nico, and if not I predict Nico will come out ahead.

[Mtom]

So your point is that Lewis needs to have a brake system designed for him in order to be faster, but I was wondering what can Rosberg do if the team design a brake system of his likes too?

If Nico can be as faster as Lewis on standar brake system, is easy to think that he will be atleast as faster as Lewis with a brake system designed for him.

What makes you think Nico is running some bolt on parts? These cars all tailored around the pilots need, and the brakes are just the parts Nico could used to in years, and bring his setup to this new car.

[dhill39]

A racing has to be almost perfect for the driver to get the maximum out of it,I remember a story about Reuben a few years ago,he was struggling bad,was half a second behind Jenson,after he got the brakes he wanted,different story.Every driver get something they want to be comfortable in the car,could be something simply as more padding,or major brake change.

[undersquare]

A racing has to be almost perfect for the driver to get the maximum out of it,I remember a story about Reuben a few years ago,he was struggling bad,was half a second behind Jenson,after he got the brakes he wanted,different story.Every driver get something they want to be comfortable in the car,could be something simply as more padding,or major brake change.

Yep they all have some of this in their history don't they? Sebi missed the exhaust blowing more than Webber when their maps were banned, Nando couldn't work his brakes at Bahrain and Canada in 2007, Kimi didn't like his power steering early last year. Not to take anything away from Nico it's just something to watch for as the season goes on.