43 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Similar to the F1 thread I want to collect teams who wanted to enter AAA, USAC, CART, ChampCar, IRL but never did it. Perhaps also planed cars that never raced.

Were there never plans from teams like Foyt, Rahal or Newman Haas to build an own car?

planed teams that never come (until now)
- Nelson Philippe some three years ago (buying the Roth team)
- Michael Shank Racing for 2013.
- Coloni also considered an entry for 2013.

[Tim Murray]

The Foyt team built the Coyotes, surely?

[PeterElleray]

and Rahal took over the Truesports chassis and project when Bobby took over his former team's interests..

[jj2728]

Think Maranello.....

[buckaluck]

I know that Don Nichols of Shadow considered making a car for Indy when the F1 team was done.

Buck

[racinggeek]

Similar to the F1 thread I want to collect teams who wanted to enter AAA, USAC, CART, ChampCar, IRL but never did it. Perhaps also planed cars that never raced.

Were there never plans from teams like Foyt, Rahal or Newman Haas to build an own car?

planed teams that never come (until now)
- Nelson Philippe some three years ago (buying the Roth team)
- Michael Shank Racing for 2013.
- Coloni also considered an entry for 2013.

As Carl Haas was making his living as a race car and parts shop, and Newman-Haas was essentially the factory Lola-then-Swift team for most of its CART years, I don't know that building its own chassis would have been in its best interests.

The Kraco team built its own car in 1986 (Don Halliday design?) -- believe it tested but never raced, seem to recall a story that March was worried about losing one of its better teams and, um, made it worthwhile for Kraco to remain a March customer. Looked like a rather neat design, too.

I'd guess the late 1970s Porsche non-effort with Danny Ongais and Interscope Racing already has been discussed somewhere on these boards. But, I believe the Slobodynskj design (not the Parnelli chassis that did the initial testing) was converted to Cosworth power and turned out to be the "Batmobile" that Ongais had his massive wreck with in 1981.

[reynard883]

Remember the Falcon? Built by Michael Kranefuss and Ken Anderson in 2002?

[Collombin]

Surprised we've gone 7 posts without a mention of the Lotus 96T. Bet we don't make it to 8 though.

[JacnGille]

Surprised we've gone 7 posts without a mention of the Lotus 96T. Bet we don't make it to 8 though.

That was the one Roy Winklemann tried to put together with Al Unser, Jr in the cockpit, right? As I remember Big Al asked Little Al what the car looked like. Little Al said they didn't have one yet. Big Al asked more questions with Little Al's answer never changing from the first reply. Big Al supposedly told his son to tear up whatever contract (real or imagined) and run, not walk away.

[Tony Matthews]

Surprised we've gone 7 posts without a mention of the Lotus 96T. Bet we don't make it to 8 though.

[chdphd]

Think Maranello.....

Think 637...

[canon1753]

A number of Penskes never got too far off the drawing boards.

[HistoryFan]

Osella wanted to build an IndyCar chassis for 1997.

Bertrand Gachot planed an IndyCar team in 1996.

[beighes]

As Tony so politely put it : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_96T

& jj2728 mentioned : http://en.wikipedia....iki/Ferrari_637

Mike (buckaluck), I made many trips with Mike Duncan to Don's when he was getting ready to take delivery of one of the F/5000 Shadows. I talked to Don about the Indy car. He stated (& only the Shadow knows for sure), there was a partially constructed Indy car tub stored in the UK, along with what was left after the shop was shut. There was something about him talking with Mario Andretti about driving. Like an idiot (please no comments), I neglected to ask who the designer was.

[Marc Sproule]

The Kraco team built its own car in 1986 (Don Halliday design?) -- believe it tested but never raced, seem to recall a story that March was worried about losing one of its better teams and, um, made it worthwhile for Kraco to remain a March customer. Looked like a rather neat design, too.

The Kraco KR-1 did indeed have a test day. Laguna Seca, Pete Halsmer at the wheel. I was there and may well have the only snaps of it in action. It was indeed a neat design.

My recollection is that it turned respectable times for a new car.

The story about March...Robin Herd in particular...providing inducements coincides with what I heard.

[mariner]

If I have my historical research right ( not guaranteed) my uncle, Jack Scales , was involved in two teams who didn't race in the early days of the Indy 500.

One was the Gregoire team in the 1920 race which was a practice but DNQ - not sure if that counts here.

The other was an apparent intention of FIAT to enter the 1919 race.

http://news.google.c...pg=5310,1944820

Although I know a bit about my uncles work at FIAT in Turin this is the first contemporary document that suggests he was involved in any Indy 500 effort by FIAT.


Does anybody know any more please?

[ghinzani]

Twiinys mate KA was due to run for that new Lola team at Indy in 84 who eventually tunred up with an 81 Eagle that Kenny decided not to risk his posterior in. They then sold pics for $5 of you sat in it for the rest of the month. I did eventually find someone who had a picture of it and they posted it on here.

[fbarrett]

Mercedes-Benz, 1950s Indy 500

Frank

[wildman]

One of the most renowned no-shows was Shelby's team of Ken Wallis-designed turbine cars, to be driven by McLaren and Hulme, which were withdrawn prior to qualifying for the '68 500. The team claimed it pulled out due to "safety concerns" after Spence's accident, but it's been widely rumored that USAC asked Shelby to withdraw after tech inspection revealed an air inlet that mysteriously grew in size when the cars came up to speed.

Edited by wildman, 14 August 2013 - 01:00.

[wildman]

Ken Wallis really got around in the late '60s. He was also involved with the stillborn Lear Vapordyne steam car that was supposed to take part in the '69 500....

Edited by wildman, 14 August 2013 - 01:00.

[Michael Ferner]

If I have my historical research right ( not guaranteed) my uncle, Jack Scales , was involved in two teams who didn't race in the early days of the Indy 500.

One was the Gregoire team in the 1920 race which was a practice but DNQ - not sure if that counts here.

The other was an apparent intention of FIAT to enter the 1919 race.

http://news.google.c...pg=5310,1944820

Although I know a bit about my uncles work at FIAT in Turin this is the first contemporary document that suggests he was involved in any Indy 500 effort by FIAT.


Does anybody know any more please?

Correct on both counts, at least in spirit! The second Grégoire actually started the race, although it failed qualifying by one tenth of a second, but it was black-flagged after only two dozen laps or so, because it irritated the spectators who were watching the other cars race...

Oh, and the Fiat entry for Scales was actually in 1917, the race never taking place, of course.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 13 August 2013 - 14:47.

[Magoo]

How about the Olmstead Voelker V12/Eagle deal? Can someone flesh out that story for us?

[Nigel Beresford]

A number of Penskes never got too far off the drawing boards.

I'm curious to know more.

[RStock]

The OSCA/Kurtis Kraft Ferrari Bardahl Special.

I don't think the Grant Piston Rings Special Ferrari ever did more than try to qualify, not sure on that one however.

Edited by RStock, 13 August 2013 - 17:56.

[mac miller]

Certainly, the most successful and interesting Indy car team that never raced was the Firestone tire test team headed by Ray Nichels.
This team ran thousands of miles at the INDIANAPOLIS MOTOR SPEEDWAY and other Indy car tracks and employed most of the top drivers of the day....... but never competed in a race!

Read about the Firestone test cars here>>>Visit My Website

Edited by mac miller, 15 August 2013 - 01:54.

[HistoryFan]

MSa reported that McLaren wanted to build IndyCars in 1997. 

[HistoryFan]

Bertrand Gachot planed an IndyCar team in 1996.

 

Has anyone more details about that?

[blueprint2002]

No activity on this thread for years, so I hope I'll get a few responses!

In a preview of the 1970 Indy 500, I saw a mention of a car entered by Autodynamics, for Vic Elford to drive. No further references that I can find, except that in the company catalogue of 1973, Ray Caldwell mentions it in passing.

The Caldwell D7 CanAm car of 1968 was interesting because of it's suspension: modern versions of de Dion at the rear and rigid axle at the front, the idea being to keep those new ultra-wide tyres evenly in contact with the road surface. A few Indy cars also tried something similar, a number of times over the years, and I wonder if the Caldwell entry was also meant to be that way.

So did the car exist? At least as a set of drawings? 

Anyone have any idea? Pictures? Drawings? Artist's impression?

[Bikr7549]

The Foyt Coyote cars were some of the best looking Indy cars around IMO. The wide, sharp chisel nose bodywork and the bright red color was just fantastic to see.

[eibyyz]

The Foyt Coyote cars were some of the best looking Indy cars around IMO. The wide, sharp chisel nose bodywork and the bright red color was just fantastic to see.

 

Beautiful cars. As if Derek Gardner had made a trip to Houston.  Those 'Yotes and the Tyrrell 006...before they all became cookie-cutter.

[mariner]

I recall reading a piece which said several people entered cars in the 500 purely to get infield/"VIP" tickets.

 

It seems that the  team entry fee was cheaper at one time than buying a lot of individual tickets.

 

I'm not sure if that story is true but there was a driver, Norm Hall,   who entered the " Nothing special" - I always loved that one.

 

https://www.worthpoi...tson-1843994150.

Edited by mariner, 30 July 2019 - 09:42.

[blueprint2002]

I recall reading a piece which said several people entered cars in the 500 purely to get infield/"VIP" tickets.

 

It seems that the  team entry fee was cheaper at one time than buying a lot of individual tickets.

 

I'm not sure if that story is true but there was a driver, Norm Hall,   who entered the " Nothing special" - I always loved that one.

 

https://www.worthpoi...tson-1843994150.

Perfectly possible, I guess.

But somewhat unlikely in the case of Autodynamics, who were serious racers.

[ensign14]

I recall reading a piece which said several people entered cars in the 500 purely to get infield/"VIP" tickets.

 

 

Jim Robbins, a "proper" entrant for years, left a sum in his will so that entries could be made in his name for 10 years after he died.

 

There was nowhere near enough money to run an actual car, so by the end of it his family had made a proper room out of their regular garage - carpet and all.

[blueprint2002]

Trying again!

A Frank Ballard entered a Cooper Maserati, for himself to drive, in the 1964 Trenton 100, and apparently qualified, as he is listed as DNS.

No other references to the car that I can find.

Anyone know anything about this car? Doesn't seem to fit in with what is known of the history of the ex-Jack Brabham Indy Cooper. Though the Maserati engine could have been one of the two V8s which were delivered to Tony Parravano in 1957.

Hope to do better this time. 

[bartez1000]

Trying again!

A Frank Ballard entered a Cooper Maserati, for himself to drive, in the 1964 Trenton 100, and apparently qualified, as he is listed as DNS.

No other references to the car that I can find.

Anyone know anything about this car? Doesn't seem to fit in with what is known of the history of the ex-Jack Brabham Indy Cooper. Though the Maserati engine could have been one of the two V8s which were delivered to Tony Parravano in 1957.

Hope to do better this time. 

According to  https://www.oldracin...com/cooper/t54/ "A previous version of this page said that the T54 was raced by Frank Ballard in Indy racing in early 1964. In early 2017, owner Philippe de Lespinay located a picture that showed Ballard's car to have been an older Cooper." , so indeed it was not T54. 

According to http://www.champcars...allardFrank.htm Car was entered for two other races, last time in Milwaukee in June, to be driven by Dee Jones. Yet according to https://www.oldracin...php?RaceID=Y64D he did not start as car was too slow. Also, engine was 2.7 S4, to probably modified 2.5 S4 Maseratti from Grand Prix racing.

[Michael Ferner]

image host

 

Said to be "ex-Salvadori", and to have "raced as #5 in the Grand Prix", for what it's worth. Engine was described as 2.7 Maserati 4. F2-15-58???

 

The picture is from the 1963 Hoosier Grand Prix at IRP. Ballard tried unsuccessfully to qualify for a couple of Sprint car races at IRP in 1962, I am guessing in this same car.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 06 August 2019 - 18:01.

[Michael Ferner]

As for the Autodynamics Indy entry, I think that was probably just wishful thinking. A bit of browsing through 1970 newspapers shows the company was deeply involved in a Trans-Am programme for Dodge, and if ever an entry at the '500' was contemplated, it certainly didn't make its way to Speedway, Indiana, and apparently not into any US newspaper either. Where did this Indy preview appear, an English magazine?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 06 August 2019 - 18:26.

[blueprint2002]

According to  https://www.oldracin...com/cooper/t54/ "A previous version of this page said that the T54 was raced by Frank Ballard in Indy racing in early 1964. In early 2017, owner Philippe de Lespinay located a picture that showed Ballard's car to have been an older Cooper." , so indeed it was not T54. 

According to http://www.champcars...allardFrank.htm Car was entered for two other races, last time in Milwaukee in June, to be driven by Dee Jones. Yet according to https://www.oldracin...php?RaceID=Y64D he did not start as car was too slow. Also, engine was 2.7 S4, to probably modified 2.5 S4 Maseratti from Grand Prix racing.

 

image host

 

Said to be "ex-Salvadori", and to have "raced as #5 in the Grand Prix", for what it's worth. Engine was described as 2.7 Maserati 4. F2-15-58???

 

The picture is from the 1963 Hoosier Grand Prix at IRP. Ballard tried unsuccessfully to qualify for a couple of Sprint car races at IRP in 1962, I am guessing in this same car.

 

 

As for the Autodynamics Indy entry, I think that was probably just wishful thinking. A bit of browsing through 1970 newspapers shows the company was deeply involved in a Trans-Am programme for Dodge, and if ever an entry at the '500' was contemplated, it certainly didn't make its way to Speedway, Indiana, and apparently not into any US newspaper either. Where did this Indy preview appear, an English magazine?

 

Thanks guys! Seems reasonably clear now, as much is it can be after all those years.

Have to admire Frank Ballard for trying to compete with only two-thirds of the allowed engine displacement. Brabham did so too, but he did have the backing of Cooper and Coventry Climax, and he was twice World Champion, so not quite the same thing.

Michael I have to apologise for sending you on a wild goose chase. That was the 1971 Indy 500, not 1970, and the preview was in Popular Mechanics, May or June that year. 

[Glengavel]

I know that BRM planned a 4.2 litre version of the H16 for Lotus to use at Indianapolis, but did they ever contemplate building their own car as well?

[Michael Ferner]

 

Michael I have to apologise for sending you on a wild goose chase. That was the 1971 Indy 500, not 1970, and the preview was in Popular Mechanics, May or June that year. 

 

 

No problem, but the 1971 papers have nothing I can find on Indy, either. In fact, from what I can gather business was slow at Autodynamics after Dodge's withdrawal, except for Super Vee engines and distributorship for Lola SV cars, until the company folded in early August, having already halved its staff the previous twelve months. A Boston paper carried an "obit", mentioning "a range of cars from Volkswagen-powered Formula Vees to 200 mph Group 7, Can-Am machines" - but nothing at all about Indy! The Indianapolis papers have nothing on Vic Elford but his exploits at Daytona and Sebring, while the only mention of Autodynamics is a short note about "Susan Ebershoff, an employe in the Indianapolis-Marion County Public Library's technical services division, is driving to Marblehead, Mass., this weekend to pick up an Autodynamics Formula Vee which she will drive in races later this summer" - and that was two weeks after Memorial Day!

 

Someone at PM having daydreams?

[blueprint2002]

No problem, but the 1971 papers have nothing I can find on Indy, either. In fact, from what I can gather business was slow at Autodynamics after Dodge's withdrawal, except for Super Vee engines and distributorship for Lola SV cars, until the company folded in early August, having already halved its staff the previous twelve months. A Boston paper carried an "obit", mentioning "a range of cars from Volkswagen-powered Formula Vees to 200 mph Group 7, Can-Am machines" - but nothing at all about Indy! The Indianapolis papers have nothing on Vic Elford but his exploits at Daytona and Sebring, while the only mention of Autodynamics is a short note about "Susan Ebershoff, an employe in the Indianapolis-Marion County Public Library's technical services division, is driving to Marblehead, Mass., this weekend to pick up an Autodynamics Formula Vee which she will drive in races later this summer" - and that was two weeks after Memorial Day!

 

Someone at PM having daydreams?

Not really. Like I said before, Ray Caldwell mentions the Indy effort in the company catalogue for 1973. His words were:

"Our racing cars have won five National Championships and company cars have completed full seasons in Trans Am, Continental and Can Am. In a weak moment, we even entered a car at Indy. In short, we are enthusiasts……  "

Edited by blueprint2002, 08 August 2019 - 00:51.

[blueprint2002]

Here's another minor mystery.

A Weisman Chevy, driven by Dee Jones and entered by the Arciero Brothers, started the Jimmy Bryan Memorial race at Phoenix in 1966, but is recorded as spinning out on the first lap. Again no other references to this car that I can find, and am hoping that someone knows something more about it.

Could it be the same car that appeared, with a Maserati V8, at Indy in 1965? What happened to it afterwards? Any pictures or other information?  

[Jahn1234567890]

image host

 

Said to be "ex-Salvadori", and to have "raced as #5 in the Grand Prix", for what it's worth. Engine was described as 2.7 Maserati 4. F2-15-58???

 

The picture is from the 1963 Hoosier Grand Prix at IRP. Ballard tried unsuccessfully to qualify for a couple of Sprint car races at IRP in 1962, I am guessing in this same car.

 

Is there any more information on this entry?

 

I should note I do note have F2-15-58 listed as a Roy Salvadori car.

 

My notes list the following 1950's Coopers as "Roy Salvadori cars"

 

F2-8-57 the car he probably drove in 1957

F2-30-57 (Works Cooper) the he most probably drove in 1958

CTA/59/F1 as the car he drove in 1959. Some sources list this car as F2-15-58 but Doug Nye makes it clear the 1959 car was newly built

F2-27-59 as his 1960 car.

 

Since the CTA/59/F1 later went to Sid Greene and then to Australia late 1961 and remains there it is impossible that this was the car Ballard used in the US. I don't have the complete history on the other Salvadori cars so it could be one of those went to the US.

[HistoryFan]

This article suggest that DAMS and Super Nova were on the move to IndyCar in the 90s, but it never happened:

 

https://www.the-race...ndycar-options/