383 replies to this topic

[danmills]

Both drivers qualified in the top 4 for that race. Its funny how they try to call the torro rosso a Minardi when in reality It was a magnificent Newey chariot.

The 1992 Benetton WAS statistically a more superior car than the 2008 Toro Rosso.

Evidence and Facts??

1992 Benetton - Finished 3rd in WCC (Drivers 3rd and 6th)
2008 Toro Rosso - Finished 6th in WCC (Drivers 8th and 17th)

Questioning Vettel's driver skill in a 'Newey Chariot' of a 2008 Toro Rosso? It wasn't exactly winning or scoring left right and centre, was it? Schumacher alone got 7 other podiums on top of that maiden win.

And let's just agree for your benefit only that the 2008 Toro Rosso was superior (mega LOL)...

Let's compare the cars capability in the hands of the little punkaSS German rookie to non other than the established experienced racer and multi Champcar Champion teammate Bourdais...

Vettel - Best result was a win at Monza. A string of points finishes, 4ths and 5ths. No more podiums.
Bourdais - Best Result in two seasons of 'Newey Chariots' was 7th. Conveniently at the same Spa circuit.

...versus the 3rd Placed WCC 1992 Benetton.

2008 Toro Rosso, clearly a superior 'newey chariot' in comparison!

Fullhouse, you sir, are an idiot!

Edited by danmills, 10 June 2013 - 12:21.

[Gorma]

There are no bad triple world champions. Vettel is one of the greats and he has not even reached his prime years.

[garoidb]

I think you will find the reason for that had nothing to do with his on track actions.

I am well aware of that!

[Xpat]

Still need to see him in a struggling car to fully judge him. He's had the best car for four straight years now.

Didn't he drive with Toro Rosso for a couple of years?

[Collombin]

There are no bad triple world champions. Vettel is one of the greats and he has not even reached his prime years.

Maybe, but of them only Senna and Stewart were of the very highest order. Piquet, Brabham and Lauda would be some way short of that level. Still "great" of course, it's all relative, but right now Vettel is more at the latter level.

[Clatter]

Maybe, but how do you know, that Montoya was destined to be Alonsos team-mate?

Because at the time that was the expectation. KR was long rumored to be heading to Ferrari, there was no hint of JPM being dropped and the plan for LH was a year of testing. That all changed when JPM went into meltdown.

[Grundle]

This is the benefit of almost always having the fastest car, especially in qualifying. Allows for very clean races and to stay out of trouble. If he had a car that did not handle perfect, and had to consistently fight from 6th on the grid, or had the frequent KERS and clutch problems of his team mate, then things would suddenly not look so nice and efficient. Seems that many people over look this important aspect.

If you want to put it down to luck that's fine. Personally, Webber had always been a poor starter, he struggles in the second phase, no clutch involved, just hooking up the gear changes. As for Kers, this has become the last bastion of the Webber fan. Massively overblown. Vettel has an Einstein like understanding of these tyres, Webber has a more rudimentary understanding. This is the real difference. It's a boring but undeniable aspect of his dominance/greatness

[Gorma]

This is the benefit of almost always having the fastest car, especially in qualifying. Allows for very clean races and to stay out of trouble. If he had a car that did not handle perfect, and had to consistently fight from 6th on the grid, or had the frequent KERS and clutch problems of his team mate, then things would suddenly not look so nice and efficient. Seems that many people over look this important aspect.

So the ability set up a car, the ability to adapt to a car, the abilitiy manage tyres in qualifying and in the race and the ability to deliver a great qualifying lap ís a negative thing?

[seahawk]

Didn't he drive with Toro Rosso for a couple of years?

2008 was a WDC contender. [enter driver name here] would have won X races with it...

[Fontainebleau]

How do you know he is not respected by his peers? I would say he is respected just as much as anyone, he also seems to get on really well with most drivers with the exception of Webber, Hamilton and Alonso. Hulkenberg said last year he is very popular amongst his peers, so to say he is not respected is nonsense. I have not heard any driver other than Hamilton and Alonso say who they thought was the best and they said each other, suprise suprise.

Vettel is the best right now and his doubters are fast running out of things to argue, some of the comments here are ridiculous. He needs to do this or that to prove how good he is, titles aren't enough for Vettel, he has to replicate what other champions have done rather than win in his own way.

He has to continue to do what he is doing now and all arguments will subside eventually and he will be regarded as one of the legends of the sport alongside men like Schumacher, Senna, Fangio and Clark, he is that good.

First, many drivers have stated in the past who they think is the best, not just Hamilton and Alonso. And surprise, surprise, a few of them mentioned Hamilton or Alonso as their favourites.

I don't think that Vettel is the best right now (obviously I don't think he is poor either!), and certainly in my eyes he is nowhere near Schumacher, Fangio, Senna or Clark. Having said that, I don't think that it is a matter of changing teams or teammates to prove anything: he is being quite successful where he is, why would he change that? Yes, he has had very good cars in these years, but that does not mean that in the future he will not have the chance to race versus another similar or even better car, and let his skills play a bigger role in the eyes of the viewers. I remember that when Hamilton started directly in a top team some people thought that he would never have the opportunity to build his reputation in the way others had built theirs while racing for lesser teams, but a few years later that does not seem to have been an obstacle for him being recognised as a great driver.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 10 June 2013 - 12:26.

[garoidb]

Because at the time that was the expectation. KR was long rumored to be heading to Ferrari, there was no hint of JPM being dropped and the plan for LH was a year of testing. That all changed when JPM went into meltdown.

This is true. Who exactly is Alonso supposed to be avoiding or vetoing at this stage of his career anyway?

[BlackGold]

Because at the time that was the expectation. KR was long rumored to be heading to Ferrari, there was no hint of JPM being dropped and the plan for LH was a year of testing. That all changed when JPM went into meltdown.

Expectation by whom? The fans, the press? No one knows what was negotiated between Alonso and Dennis.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Bourdais almost a second behind Vettel, and even that was flattered because the all time great Hamilton underperformed.

That shows the car ws actuall quie good. Bourdais managed to be 4th despite being at least 1 second within the max. of the car.

[Clatter]

Expectation by whom? The fans, the press? No one knows what was negotiated between Alonso and Dennis.

Ok. I'll take your line to be that FA negotiated with RD to get JPM booted mid-season so the relatively unknown LH could replace him.

[Fontainebleau]

Expectation by whom? The fans, the press? No one knows what was negotiated between Alonso and Dennis.

True, but when has that stopped people from speculating or expecting? For example, nobody knows if Alonso has ever asked for him being #1 to be included in a contract, because as you said above negotiations are not public, but some people take that for granted, go figure...

[mnmracer]

So the ability set up a car, the ability to adapt to a car, the abilitiy manage tyres in qualifying and in the race and the ability to deliver a great qualifying lap ís a negative thing?

Obviously.
Look at Ayrton Senna: he won 71% of his races from pole position, 95% from the sharp end of the grid.
Everyone always says how easy Senna had it...

[kenkip]

Alonso did infact turn Ferrari around.

Kimi-era 2007-2009:
1 WDC
2 WCC
18 wins
44 podiums
17 poles

Alonso-era 2010-2012:
0 WDC
0 WCC
9 wins
40 podiums
4 poles

Is this realy accurate?

[danmills]

There are no bad triple world champions. Vettel is one of the greats and he has not even reached his prime years.

Exactly.

Circumstances, what ifs, teammates, engines, tyres, politics etc aside... everyone is in the same sort of boat in some form in relation to eachother during their careers.

During any given season, the best of that bunch becomes the best of that year. The winner. The world champion. You can't compare them directly between seasons and past champions, its impossible. But the winner is the winner.

And if winning world championships was easy, everyone would be doing it. Especially Webber.

He's had 4 years of 'Newey chariots' to win. He hasn't.

And nobody has won a world championship in a bad car. It's a team sport.

Hats of to Vettel (whom I am no fan of).

He is in the making of being a real great.

Edited by danmills, 10 June 2013 - 12:35.

[mnmracer]

2008 was a WDC contender. [enter driver name here] would have won X races with it...

If you had been paying attention, you would know that [enter driver name here] would have run away with all the championships in 'Newey chariots', from the STR2 to the RBR9. Hell, [enter driver name here] would have already passed Schumacher's record WDCs AND wins. The fact that Vettel gets so few results out of the car is testament to how bad a driver he is.

How journalists, ex-drivers and team bosses can still not see Vettel is not worthy of the credit he gets, is beyond me.
Seriously

[fullhouse]

So the ability set up a car, the ability to adapt to a car, the abilitiy manage tyres in qualifying and in the race and the ability to deliver a great qualifying lap ís a negative thing?

No but its an easy thing when you have the best car that handles like its on rails.

[Clatter]

Exactly.

Circumstances, what ifs, teammates, engines, tyres, politics etc aside... everyone is in the same sort of boat in some form in relation to eachother during their careers.

During any given season, the best of that bunch becomes the best of that year. The winner. The world champion. You can't compare them directly between seasons and past champions, its impossible. But the winner is the winner.

And if winning world championships was easy, everyone would be doing it. Especially Webber.

He's had 6 and a bit years of 'Newey chariots' to win. He hasn't.

And nobody has won a world championship in a bad car. It's a team sport.

Hats of to Vettel (whom I am no fan of).

He is in the making of being a real great.

Although one of those years could be taken out as he probably joined to late to influence the design in his first year.

Edited by Clatter, 10 June 2013 - 12:41.

[mnmracer]

No but its an easy thing when you have the best car that handles like its on rails.

Except it doesn't in Webber's hands
Don't you ever get sick of your ridiculous double standard?

[BlackGold]

Ok. I'll take your line to be that FA negotiated with RD to get JPM booted mid-season so the relatively unknown LH could replace him.

No, that's not what I wanted to say. But it would not surprise me if Dennis had never planned to go on with JPM and Kimi after that season, when he was is negotiation with Alonso...

[mnmracer]

No, that's not what I wanted to say. But it would not surprise me if Dennis had never planned to go on with JPM and Kimi after that season, when he was is negotiation with Alonso...

It was very clear when they signed Alonso, that JPM's contract had not yet been printed.

[ensign14]

So we have Pescara/Spa, Monaco, Aintree and Rouen. That requires 4 driving styles according to you.
Let's see if we can match that:
- Monaco
- Valencia/Singapore
- Monza
- Spa/Suzuka
wow, would you look at that, already matched it, and there's still 14 tracks to go!

Well, you missed out Monza on my list, Spa and Pescara were pretty different, and the top three on your list are all similar. Apart from that, it's fine.

[danmills]

No but its an easy thing when you have the best car that handles like its on rails.

If its as good as you claim, then F1 should be like bloody Scalextric and the Red Bulls in tandem.

Where is Webber?

Not in P2!

[dau]

Exactly.

Circumstances, what ifs, teammates, engines, tyres, politics etc aside... everyone is in the same sort of boat in some form in relation to eachother during their careers.

During any given season, the best of that bunch becomes the best of that year. The winner. The world champion. You can't compare them directly between seasons and past champions, its impossible. But the winner is the winner.

And if winning world championships was easy, everyone would be doing it. Especially Webber.

He's had 4 years of 'Newey chariots' to win. He hasn't.[...]

To be fair: He would probably be a double WDC if he wouldn't have had Vettel as his team mate.

[fullhouse]

Except it doesn't in Webber's hands
Don't you ever get sick of your ridiculous double standard?

Webber is rubbish and well past his use by date, what's the double standard?

[MikeV1987]

Webber certainly isn't 'rubbish' or past his due date, don't kid yourself.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Bourdais almost a second behind Vettel, and even that was flattered because the all time great Hamilton underperformed.

That shows the car ws actuall quie good. Bourdais managed to be 4th despite being at least 1 second within the max. of the car.

[pUs]

Webber is rubbish and well past his use by date, what's the double standard?

At what point would you say he turned 'rubbish' ?

[mnmracer]

Well, you missed out Monza on my list, Spa and Pescara were pretty different, and the top three on your list are all similar. Apart from that, it's fine.

Sorry, you are correct. Pescara is more like Rouen (unless you consider it a skill to drive in a straight line).
Even if you were correct about the 3 street races, that's already 3 - 5, with 14 modern tracks still to assess.

[danmills]

That shows the car ws actuall quie good. Bourdais managed to be 4th despite being at least 1 second within the max. of the car.

He didn't get pole, and he didn't win though, did he?

And winning is what makes the champion.

[mnmracer]

At what point would you say he turned 'rubbish' ?

At the point that our comedian needed a scape goat to blame Vettel's success on

Edited by mnmracer, 10 June 2013 - 13:00.

[TheThirdTenor1]

He didn't get pole, and he didn't win though, did he?

And winning is what makes the champion.

yep, well what did you expect? Bourdais was deemed to be not good enough for F1.

[mnmracer]

To be fair: He would probably be a double WDC if he wouldn't have had Vettel as his team mate.

Well, the funny thing is, then this exact same Webber, with the exact same performances, if beaten by the exact same performing Vettel would suddenly find himself in Button territory. The forum would implode with yet another excuse flushed down the drain.

[fullhouse]

At what point would you say he turned 'rubbish' ?

After 2010 really, but at his best he's never been better than average, and his performances back that up, as he is a terribly inconsistent driver, that has managed to retain the reputation of being 'quick' simply because he's been sitting in the quickest car for almost the last 5 years.

[pUs]

After 2010 really, but at his best he's never been better than average, and his performances back that up, as he is a terribly inconsistent driver, that has managed to retain the reputation of being 'quick' simply because he's been sitting in the quickest car for almost the last 5 years.

Right after Vettel claimed his first title, Webber turned 'rubbish'. What a coincidence.

[David1976]

Both drivers qualified in the top 4 for that race. Its funny how they try to call the torro rosso a Minardi when in reality It was a magnificent Newey chariot.

I concur. Back at that time Torro Rosso were running 1 year old Red Bull's with updates. They also had a powerhouse of a Ferrari engine that made them competitive. After all Sebastian Bourdais qualified in the same car in 4th position and he is not widely regarded as a good by F1 standards.

[seahawk]

Webber is rubbish and well past his use by date, what's the double standard?

Since 2009?

[Nonesuch]

Is this realy accurate?

Not entirely - there were 47 podiums in the 'Kimi era', not 44. Other than that it's right.

Alonso has scored an equal amount of wins to Raikkonen, more podiums and only one less pole in an era where qualifying is no longer as crucial. He missed out on two WDC with less than five points, while Raikkonen won his with just 1 point over Hamilton and Alonso. There's not much between them in that regard.

2007-2009:
1 WDC: Raikkonen 1 (2007) - Massa 0
2 WCC: 2007 and 2008
18 wins: Raikkonen 9 - Massa 9
47 podiums: Raikkonen 26 - Massa 21
17 poles: Raikkonen 5 - Massa 12

2010-2012:
0 WDC
0 WCC
9 wins: Alonso 9 - Massa 0
40 podiums: Alonso 33 - Massa 7
4 poles: Alonso 4 - Massa 0

Edited by Nonesuch, 10 June 2013 - 13:28.

[PassWind]

If Vettel is so good why is he not really respected by his peers, the other drivers? The best driver of any era has always been regarded as the best by the other drivers. Even though schumacher was disliked widely by his peers, he was undisputedly regarded as the king of the grid by them. Vettel does not hold that respect from them, as much as Lewis and Alonso are. You would think the drivers would be the best judge of who's the best?

Your not his peer purple ham so stop speaking on behalf of peers you have no clue as to what the are thinking, you don't live your life as your favorite driver.

[dau]

Right after Vettel claimed his first title, Webber turned 'rubbish'. What a coincidence.

Well it does make sense: A mediocre driver like Vettel winning the WDC proves that the RBR was the by far fastest car, so it was obvious that Webber had turned rubbish. But with Vettel only beating a rubbish driver, it is clear that he can't be any more than mediocre. Checkmate, Vettel fans.

[EthanM]

The fact somebody got so ******** he made a sockpuppet account to vent the pain in his anus Vettel's success caused is I think proof enough of how good Vettel is. Mediocre drivers don't cause that level of pain. Now whether one day he will be regarded as one of the greats, who knows. Time will tell. With 3 WDCs at 25 odds are that yes he will end up as one of the greats of the sport. But then again who knows, Hamilton could retire with 1 WDC and in retrospect be the Jacques Villeneuve of this era and all this bickering would amount to nothing.

[fullhouse]

Since 2009?

Ye right at the time Massa suddenly become rubbish right?

[BlackGold]

Well it does make sense: A mediocre driver like Vettel winning the WDC proves that the RBR was the by far fastest car, so it was obvious that Webber had turned rubbish. But with Vettel only beating a rubbish driver, it is clear that he can't be any more than mediocre. Checkmate, Vettel fans.

So your "winning" move ist, that you definie Vettel as a mediocre driver? Chess does not seem to be your game^^

[seahawk]

Ye right at the time Massa suddenly become rubbish right?

I do not understand the connection between Webber, Vettel and Massa - sorry. Nor would I call Massa rubbish.

[TheThirdTenor1]

The fact somebody got so ******** he made a sockpuppet account to vent the pain in his anus Vettel's success caused is I think proof enough of how good Vettel is.

Precisely. This is well known to be a true test of a driver. Once this happens there is no doubt that he is an all time great.

[EvanRainer]

As I was saying in the other thread, the yearly ********-fueled smear campaign against Vettel has begun.

Yawn.

[mnmracer]

Precisely. This is well known to be a true test of a driver. Once this happens there is no doubt that he is an all time great.

We are only having a beef with FOS' ridiculous attempts to diminish any of Vettel's achievements.
You should probably stop arguing on fullofshithouse's side if your only beef is Vettel not being an all-time great.