141 replies to this topic

[Meanbeakin]

I think it was a shoulda.

If he gets points in Korea, he leads comfortably into the final race.

Yep, even 3rd place in Korea (When he almost certainly would've finished at least 2nd in that race with Vettel's engine failure) would have been enough.

And whilst it's a stretch, Imma add Webber to Vettel as someone who could've won in 2009. Without his midseason run of bad luck and his mess up at Suzuka (Plus getting smacked by Barrichello in the first corner in Aus), I believe he may well have been ahead of Jenson Button.

[Collombin]

He led the most laps in 1985 but was fourth behind Mansell, Piquet and Prost in 1986. For this thread, I think he has a better case as a "coulda" or "shoulda" for 1985.

I remember Watson always used to do a top 10 after each season for one of the magazines, and he slightly surprised me by putting Senna at number 1 in 1985, after years of Piquet.

I think Senna was clearly the quickest, but I don't think he truly established himself as the best until late 1988.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Vettel shoulda in 2009.

Alonso coulda ni 2010 and 2012.

[MikeTekRacing]

And Massa gained 2 points. Plus Hamilton had his share of malfortune. As well as another bent penalty.

then hamilton also "won" points in Hungary from Massa's DNF (so Massa's lost is >10points)

One thing people forget is Kova only took points away from Ham in Hungary...while Massa had Kimi as a team mate who...is likely to race him harder

[BoschKurve]

I think Piquet had it sewn up from the moment Mansell's wheel nut came off in Hungary.

Least deserved championship ever? Piquet in 1987 didn't outdrive Mansell once all season. This is the only example in WDC history where a driver invoked the rules of Hearts and won the title by shooting the moon.

Alas, a similar tactic the year before came to nothing after Piquet accidentally beat Mansell fair and square at Monza. Other than that I can think of no occasion on which Piquet impressed more than Mansell during their entire Williams tenure.

I know his Imola 87 crash was a bad one, but presumably not so bad as to affect his form retrospectively.

Nelson has already stated the Imola crash affected him greatly, and he was never the same driver again after that crash. He kept racing for the money, but his heart wasn't into the racing the same way.

Nelson should have been champion in 1986, as Mansell was supposed to be the number 2 driver. But we can thank Frank Williams for donning his Union Jack goggles and throwing away the WDC, and the Honda engines too. Nelson's 1987 WDC was fair as it was a sort of karmic repayment for 1986.

[BoschKurve]

Senna deserved none of his titles.

In 1988 Prost woulda won because he out-scored him, but the ridiculous best-11 results gave the WDC to Senna.
In 1990 he shoulda been disqualified from the whole championship after his murderous move on Prost at Suzuka.
In 1991 Mansell coulda won but he had too much bad luck and the Williams was too unreliable.

I accidentally opened a small can of worms.

That system in 1988 worked just fine. It's also pointless to say Prost "shoulda" won as had the points system been like the one we have today --which is a total joke-- who is to say the outcomes of all those races would have remained the same? Tactics change depending on what the external circumstances are.

You could argue Prost should have been DQ'd in 1989 for turning in on Senna. It was a dirty move no matter how one looks at it.

1991 is a fair point regarding Mansell, as the FW14 was the equal of the MP4/6, but didn't start looking like the equal till June.

Senna deserved his titles, and his 1991 championship was well deserved.

[Collombin]

Nelson has already stated the Imola crash affected him greatly, and he was never the same driver again after that crash.

Quite possibly. But he would say that wouldn't he?

Union Jack goggles? Yes he could have invoked team orders to gain a Williams driver the WDC. But Nigel was the better driver that year. Maybe Frank would have been better just suggesting to Nelson that he maybe drive a bit quicker?

And I say that as a Piquet fan who couldn't stand Mansell.

[Watkins74]

Nelson has already stated the Imola crash affected him greatly, and he was never the same driver again after that crash. He kept racing for the money, but his heart wasn't into the racing the same way.

Nelson should have been champion in 1986, as Mansell was supposed to be the number 2 driver. But we can thank Frank Williams for donning his Union Jack goggles and throwing away the WDC, and the Honda engines too. Nelson's 1987 WDC was fair as it was a sort of karmic repayment for 1986.

Williams was paralyzed in March of 1986 so I suspect he had other things on his mind.

[BoschKurve]

Quite possibly. But he would say that wouldn't he?

Union Jack goggles? Yes he could have invoked team orders to gain a Williams driver the WDC. But Nigel was the better driver that year. Maybe Frank would have been better just suggesting to Nelson that he maybe drive a bit quicker?

And I say that as a Piquet fan who couldn't stand Mansell.

That Imola crash was far worse than I think people remember. I've always been amazed he wasn't killed in that crash. I suppose though Nelson was always lucky in that regard that he was able to survive that and the Indy crash.

[ensign14]

One thing people forget is Kova only took points away from Ham in Hungary...while Massa had Kimi as a team mate who...is likely to race him harder

That works the other way around though. The Ferrari was good enough to keep Massa in title contention; the McLaren wasn't good enough to do the same for Kova...

[Collombin]

That Imola crash was far worse than I think people remember. I've always been amazed he wasn't killed in that crash. I suppose though Nelson was always lucky in that regard that he was able to survive that and the Indy crash.

The BBC newsreader made me think Piquet had been killed, just by the sombre tone of his voice. My heart skipped a beat.

As for the Indy crash, is there a more horrifying non-fatal crash photo in all of motorsport than the one where Piquet's head seems to be in contact with the wall, and you just think "where the hell are his legs?"

I think he was lucky in both incidents to have spun fully before impact.

In the context of Piquet's form though, if the Imola crash had happened a year earlier I would be much less sceptical than I am, as it would help explain everything.

[MikeTekRacing]

That works the other way around though. The Ferrari was good enough to keep Massa in title contention; the McLaren wasn't good enough to do the same for Kova...

massa was LEADING the Ferrari challenge so you might say the Ferrari was good enough to keep Kimi in the game...

or would you argue that Kova is as strong as a headache as Kimi?

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 12 June 2013 - 15:51.

[BoschKurve]

The BBC newsreader made me think Piquet had been killed, just by the sombre tone of his voice. My heart skipped a beat.

As for the Indy crash, is there a more horrifying non-fatal crash photo in all of motorsport than the one where Piquet's head seems to be in contact with the wall, and you just think "where the hell are his legs?"

I think he was lucky in both incidents to have spun fully before impact.

In the context of Piquet's form though, if the Imola crash had happened a year earlier I would be much less sceptical than I am, as it would help explain everything.

I think the crash explains his decision more to go to Lotus where he was paid highly, but was accepting a garbage car. It was apparent by 1987 Lotus was on their way down, so it made little sense to go to a team in decline. Plus there was the pay for points thing that Flavio enticed Nelson with in what was it, 1990 and 1991?

He drove very well for the rest of 1987 after Imola, but going to Lotus pretty much took him out of the running for good. Going to uncompetitive cars tends to cause incorrect assumptions about drivers, as even not driving as well as he did 5 years earlier, Nelson still had an ungodly amount of talent in 1991. He was smooth as ever behind the wheel. I think that's the part people lose sight with regarding Nelson. He was one of the smoothest drivers out there with how he handled a car around the track even when he had 1200HP behind him in the Brabham in qualifying. His speed was incredibly deceptive in my opinion, because even when going fast, he never quite looked like he was going fast due to the smoothness of which he piloted around the track.

[Longtimefan]

1974 was probably the most open season I can think of, full of possible alternative champions.

1974 should have been Cevert's year..

[Wolf]

Ensign, a good list, but no way I'd give '61 to Clark- it should be undisputedly Moss' year, he was at his peak and Monaco and 'Ring one of the best performances seen on GP tracks. Clark's time was yet to come...

[Anderis]

1974 should have been Cevert's year..

Or Rindt's.

I'm very curious how many times Rindt would challenge for WDC. I think he could be something like 5-times WDC.

[ElJefe]

Or Rindt's.

I'm very curious how many times Rindt would challenge for WDC. I think he could be something like 5-times WDC.

Agreed. Rindt was a supreme motorracing talent and only if he'd survived that Monza crash... One of the most underrated drivers ever.

[Collombin]

People who knew him seem to think he would have retired before too long, I don't think he would have stuck around long enough to win 5 titles.

He was very close to Bernie of course, which makes me wonder if he would be in a powerful role within the sport today had he lived.

[Anderis]

I've read that Rindt wanted to retire after 1970 anyway, mostly due to the death of his friend- Piers Courage.

But I'm just curious how much could he achieve if he was determined to stay in F1 until his early fourties- which was a normal year to retire for F1 driver then.

Edited by Anderis, 12 June 2013 - 22:23.

[ElJefe]

To be fair though, the same could be said about Jim Clark. Or what to think of Stefan Bellof; if he survived his crash at Spa perhaps Senna and Prost would not have their combined 7 WDCs, as he evidently was extremely talented.

[Collombin]

To be fair though, the same could be said about Jim Clark. Or what to think of Stefan Bellof; if he survived his crash at Spa perhaps Senna and Prost would not have their combined 7 WDCs, as he evidently was extremely talented.

I dont think Bellof was as special as many seem to believe - he didn't outperform his Tyrrell teammates Brundle and Johansson. Yes he was very fast in sportcars, but that's not the best approach in that category: no point in shattering Nurburgring lap records if you're going to hurl the thing into the barriers long before the end of the race.

I believe he had a Ferrari drive lined up, but that wasn't an especially competitive proposition in 1986.

[jj2728]

Ensign, a good list, but no way I'd give '61 to Clark- it should be undisputedly Moss' year, he was at his peak and Monaco and 'Ring one of the best performances seen on GP tracks. Clark's time was yet to come...

The 'sharknoses' were just too strong in '61 for anyone other than Phill Hill or Taffy von Trips to have become WDC. Moss undoubtedly had stellar drives at Monaco and the 'Ring, but on the fast tracks, the Rob Walker Lotus was simply outclassed by the much more powerful Ferraris.
Had he lived, I'm not convinced that we'd have seen Rindt defend his 1970 title. The death of his mate Piers Courage had effected him deeply, the fragility of the Lotus worried him, and he was thinking of setting up his own team with Bernie for 1971. But sadly, we'll never know for sure.

[rmpugh]

All utterly pointless. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda pretty much sums up FA over the last 3 years, but Didn't is all that matters. Every WDC deserves what he got, even SV!! I am a massive FA fan, but SV won the last 3 years because the package of him and RB was better than anyone else. Yes, FA is a much better driver to even be close to beating a Red Bull in 10 and 12, but still the Red Bull was a better car. So, the better car and driver package won. Webber didn't. He also had the dominant car, but failed.

What we need to hope for, is that Red Bull screw up, and Ferrari do well. Red Bull have built a very fast car that is also indestructible over the last few years, Ferrari need to do the same. Jesus, if any other car than a Red Bull crashed like Vettel did in the first lap of the last race of 2012, they would be retired.

Vettel can't rely on luck alone for the rest of the season. Sooner or later, he will screw up. It will then be great to see this happen.

[Collombin]

Then of course there was that guy who was a full second quicker than Piquet in his second Brabham test, but turned down the offer from Bernie, leading Herbie Blash to later describe him as the great lost world champion.

I think his name was Rick something. I wonder what ever happened to him.

[BoschKurve]

Then of course there was that guy who was a full second quicker than Piquet in his second Brabham test, but turned down the offer from Bernie, leading Herbie Blash to later describe him as the great lost world champion.

I think his name was Rick something. I wonder what ever happened to him.

Testing is testing.

Remember Pizzonia? Mark Webber sandbagged him in testing, then when the actual races came along, he walked away from him. Granted Mears went on to achieve quite a bit in open-wheelers, but I guess I approach that stuff with caution when there is no data beyond that like actual races.

[Collombin]

There were a couple of top CART guys whose F1 tests bordered on embarrassing, but if there was any driver from that series who I think really could have made it then it was Mears. And the Brabham guys were obviously impressed enough by what they saw.

Anyway, that's another question to ask Nelson about!

[Zoetrope]

Me coulda. If I had talent, parents willing to develop it since early age, luck to be spotted by racing teams, political skills to position myself in the best car, luck not to face a better driver in team. And if I had guts.

[BoschKurve]

There were a couple of top CART guys whose F1 tests bordered on embarrassing, but if there was any driver from that series who I think really could have made it then it was Mears. And the Brabham guys were obviously impressed enough by what they saw.

Anyway, that's another question to ask Nelson about!

Patrick Head throwing Al Unser Jr. out of his office comes to mind.

[Collombin]

Patrick Head throwing Al Unser Jr. out of his office comes to mind.

Indeed, that's the main one I had in mind

I don't think the Coogan v Prost shootout for the McLaren drive resulted in too many sleepness nights of management indecision either.

[Bleu]

Kubica coulda won 2008. Got crashed into in Melbourne I think, made a mistake and put the car in the gravel in that treachorous British GP which Hamilton dominated and hade a crappy end to the season with lowly finishing position in Singapore (the SC destroyed his race if I remember correctly, as he pitted when the pitlane was closed because he didnt have enough fuel) and Brazil (gambled on tires but pitted at the end of the warm-up lap I think?). Had BMW continued developing the car he coulda had a WDC, and Hamilton coulda had none.

BTW, wasn't the 2008 an awfully rain-affected season?

Considering that he was already on low fuel, he would have fared better if he had pitted one lap earlier. Rosberg did that and managed to return about in the place where he was supposed to drop had the race continued without SC. While Kubica pitted, he was already in queue behind SC, which didn't include all cars, therefore pits were not opened yet. The thing that made it worse for him, was that Fisichella was running on one-stop strategy and held third place. Force India was so much slower car, so he held everyone up. This allowed Rosberg to build a lead which allowed him to return behind Alonso, who had been just behind Fisi and Kubica. Between Rosberg and Fisi was Trulli, also on one stop but at least Toyota had somewhat decent pace.

[lustigson]

I've read that Rindt wanted to retire after 1970 anyway, mostly due to the death of his friend- Piers Courage.

That's the accepted truth, indeed... however, I also read, I believe it was in Courage's biography, that Rindt had plans, with his manager Ecclestone, to buy the Brabham team, which Ecclestone eventually did on his own, and I reckon they could have had a shot at the 1974 title at least.

Rindt in 1972 is another possibility, but dependent on whether he would have stayed at Lotus, or already joined Ecclestone at Brabham.

[Nemo1965]

I think that the real 'coulda' is about having the real chance of winning the crown... and then by a mere straw losing it... like Massa in 2008 indeed. Or even better: Moss who protested against the disqualification of his rival Mike Hawthorne... and then lost the championship because of it.

If you look at 1982, for example, Renault had the fastest car by far. I can't remember a race that was not led in part by either Prost or Arnoux. Problem was that the engines would blow up all the time... I think that if you, as a team, don't get the car reliable, you can't say you have a real chance of winning.

Mansell (though I dislike that man) should have and could have won the championship in 1986, when his tyre blew up at the straight in Aidelaide...

[BoschKurve]

I think that the real 'coulda' is about having the real chance of winning the crown... and then by a mere straw losing it... like Massa in 2008 indeed. Or even better: Moss who protested against the disqualification of his rival Mike Hawthorne... and then lost the championship because of it.

If you look at 1982, for example, Renault had the fastest car by far. I can't remember a race that was not led in part by either Prost or Arnoux. Problem was that the engines would blow up all the time... I think that if you, as a team, don't get the car reliable, you can't say you have a real chance of winning.

Mansell (though I dislike that man) should have and could have won the championship in 1986, when his tyre blew up at the straight in Aidelaide...

One could argue though that Nelson should have won after Mansell's tire blew up, had he been allowed to continue.

[7MGTEsup]

Mansell (though I dislike that man) should have and could have won the championship in 1986, when his tyre blew up at the straight in Aidelaide...

That is a definate should have for me.

[ensign14]

I think that the real 'coulda' is about having the real chance of winning the crown... and then by a mere straw losing it...

Tony Brooks in 1959. Would surely have won Sebring had a team-mate not rammed him - which would never have happened in the first place had the hometown hero been allowed to start on the front row instead thanks to a creative short-cut.

[garoidb]

One could argue though that Nelson should have won after Mansell's tire blew up, had he been allowed to continue.

Prost was very, very lucky in that race.

[scheivlak]

One could argue though that Nelson should have won after Mansell's tire blew up, had he been allowed to continue.

could have won, not should. I very much doubt he would have stood a chance for the remaining 20 laps against Prost, who was on fresher tyres.

[PayasYouRace]

One could argue though that Nelson should have won after Mansell's tire blew up, had he been allowed to continue.

Oh he could have also had a spectacular blow-up.

[garoidb]

Oh he could have also had a spectacular blow-up.

His tyres were inspected afterwards and were found to be fine.

[Collombin]

could have won, not should. I very much doubt he would have stood a chance for the remaining 20 laps against Prost, who was on fresher tyres.

I don't get why that race is considered quite so great by so many people. Sure it was dramatic, but Piquet's pitstop/potential tyre trouble put paid to what could have been an amazing last few laps. But it didn't happen, so was a little frustrating in that respect - much like the 1967 Senior TT, which is equally revered.

[garoidb]

His tyres were inspected afterwards and were found to be fine.

Just to add - what a great climax to a WDC that would have been - a race to the finish with a world title a stake and neither one with a predilection for provoking crashes to win the WDC.

[scheivlak]

His tyres were inspected afterwards and were found to be fine.

But the question is about their condition and their performance after 20 more laps.
We'll never know.