39 replies to this topic

[Ragnar668]

Am I the only one feeling that during yesterdays race Hamilton kept a lot of distance between him and Sutil when he was about to lap him (and for a long time) ?
This way giving Sutil little choice but to stay ahead.

Edited by Ragnar668, 10 June 2013 - 18:03.

[Louis Mr. F1]

i thought about that during the race and was wondering if Hamilton deliberately sat behind Sutil until after the far side hairpin, so that he would be entitled to use the DRS himself and kept himself ahead of the following Alonso.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

i thought about that during the race and was wondering if Hamilton deliberately sat behind Sutil until after the far side hairpin, so that he would be entitled to use the DRS himself and kept himself ahead of the following Alonso.

That would be my interpretation as well. Clever job from Lewis.

(Although I think Adrian thinks slightly different....)

[Bruce]

If in fact the above three comments are the case, than Hamilton was a little disingenuous in that he was already yelling by turn 3 or 4 - "Blue flag" (according to Croft).

I don't think that Sutil's penalty was deserved - he didn't jump out of the way, but it was pretty clear he wasn't holding anyone up. One needn't go to far back to see the shoe on the other foot - Hamilton at Hockenheim - a backmarker, but going fast enough not to have to let those behind go by...

[RedBaron]

If in fact the above three comments are the case, than Hamilton was a little disingenuous in that he was already yelling by turn 3 or 4 - "Blue flag" (according to Croft).

Radio messages are delayed, might have been from a previous back marker but played in then for entertainment value. Unless drivers use names, you can't really pin point what is said exactly when.

[Louis Mr. F1]

the thing is it would be unfair to Adrian if that's really the case.

I wonder if the stewards would investigate only if a driver complain about a lapped car or they would still investigate if it LOOKS like a lapped car is holding up the leaders but the lead drivers never complain anything?

[MortenF1]

I sat there feeling Sutil was (again) very reluctant to give Hamilton an easy time, and I'm thinking it's related to the trial around the Lux-episode.
Hamilton wanted to get past Sutil as quickly as possible, ideally in a place where Alonso couldn't follow him through, thereby getting some of the air back between himself and the Ferrari.

[Currahee]

i thought about that during the race and was wondering if Hamilton deliberately sat behind Sutil until after the far side hairpin, so that he would be entitled to use the DRS himself and kept himself ahead of the following Alonso.

This is what I was thinking. Quite clever if he was.

[Bloggsworth]

Sorry to disagree, I was yelling at the goggle-box for him to get out of the way - The idea that Hamilton was luring him into a drive-through is ludicrous; Sutil was slow to get out of the way.

[oldracer1957]

1. The rules are clear: Blue flags prepare to move over then move over.
2. Sutil was lapped by 4 cars and with 3 cars he moved over latest after the second blue flag.
3. Sutil waited 4-5 blue flags before he let Lewis by.
4. Consequently Sutil got a penalty for... (IdunnowhatwasgoingthroughhisheadbyIdontthinkpeoplethinkoftheirlostcourtcaseandc
riminalsentensingwhensittinginanF1car) just being stupid at that very moment; costing the team valuable points.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

Sorry to disagree, I was yelling at the goggle-box for him to get out of the way - The idea that Hamilton was luring him into a drive-through is ludicrous; Sutil was slow to get out of the way.

No, no. I am not suggesting at all that that was what Lewis was doing. I am opining that he knew he can get DRS by waiting a few corners.

[joshb]

He could've let Hamilton go earlier than he did... whether it was over the previous history, I suspect it was but he would always say no- even though deep down it may have been that reason

[ensign14]

i thought about that during the race and was wondering if Hamilton deliberately sat behind Sutil until after the far side hairpin, so that he would be entitled to use the DRS himself and kept himself ahead of the following Alonso.

Thus cunningly getting past Sutil at a place where Alonso could also pass, but with a great deal more ease, and a benefit from extra DRS?

[as65p]

Thus cunningly getting past Sutil at a place where Alonso could also pass, but with a great deal more ease, and a benefit from extra DRS?

Tell more about that please.

[senna da silva]

Sorry to disagree, I was yelling at the goggle-box for him to get out of the way - The idea that Hamilton was luring him into a drive-through is ludicrous; Sutil was slow to get out of the way.

[EthanM]

no one is suggesting Hamilton was luring Sutil into a drive-through. People are suggesting Hamilton deliberately delayed overtaking Sutil until AFTER the DRS detection point so that Hamilton would have DRS available to defend against Alonso.

[peroa]

I sat there feeling Sutil was (again) very reluctant to give Hamilton an easy time, and I'm thinking it's related to the trial around the Lux-episode.
Hamilton wanted to get past Sutil as quickly as possible, ideally in a place where Alonso couldn't follow him through, thereby getting some of the air back between himself and the Ferrari.

Well, it was pretty obvious and he got a penalty for it.
The interview after the race was again classic Sutil style, trying to put a calm face on a vulcano inside.

[Mtom]

I just watched back, they ran a whole lap behind sutil!
Hamilton was about a sec behind sutil at the last chicane in lap 59, and passed him at the end of next lap.

[P123]

If in fact the above three comments are the case, than Hamilton was a little disingenuous in that he was already yelling by turn 3 or 4 - "Blue flag" (according to Croft).

I don't think that Sutil's penalty was deserved - he didn't jump out of the way, but it was pretty clear he wasn't holding anyone up. One needn't go to far back to see the shoe on the other foot - Hamilton at Hockenheim - a backmarker, but going fast enough not to have to let those behind go by...

It was, he passed 3 blue flags.

[P123]

No, no. I am not suggesting at all that that was what Lewis was doing. I am opining that he knew he can get DRS by waiting a few corners.

That makes little sense as slowing behind Sutil would also enable Alonso to have the DRS. Sutil passed too many blue flags before he finally let them through, it's as simple as that. Of course Hamilton is involved so the usual get creative, and this theory gets an A for creativity.

Edited by P123, 10 June 2013 - 20:54.

[EthanM]

That makes little sense as slowing behind Sutil would also enable Alonso to have the DRS. Sutil passed too many blue flags before he finally let them through, it's as simple as that. Of course Hamilton is involved so the usual get creative, and this theory gets an A for creativity.

Alonso had DRS from Lewis anyway :S

[P123]

Alonso had DRS from Lewis anyway :S

Not at that stage. The gap was 1.2s. After Sutil it was 0.5s, then he had DRS.

[Coops3]

No, no. I am not suggesting at all that that was what Lewis was doing. I am opining that he knew he can get DRS by waiting a few corners.

What's DRS worth, a few tenths? Hamilton will have lost a lot more than that behind Sutil.

[SunnyENTP]

no one is suggesting Hamilton was luring Sutil into a drive-through. People are suggesting Hamilton deliberately delayed overtaking Sutil until AFTER the DRS detection point so that Hamilton would have DRS available to defend against Alonso.

Yes that makes sense - let someone who was 4 seconds behind you close up on you to a second so you can use DRS against them. Wow! I love how smart people are on this forum

[Coops3]

Am I the only one feeling that during yesterdays race Hamilton kept a lot of distance between him and Sutil when he was about to lap him (and for a long time) ?
This way giving Sutil little choice but to stay ahead.

When lapped cars are shown blue flags, they move off line to let the lapping car through, and sometimes also slow down. I can't remember Sutil moving off line to try and let Hamilton through. If he did, you may have a point, but it's not up to the lapping car to hound and pressure the lapped car into moving off line, that's what the blue flags are there to tell them.

[EthanM]

Yes that makes sense - let someone who was 4 seconds behind you close up on you to a second so you can use DRS against them. Wow! I love how smart people are on this forum

no Alonso was eleventy seconds behind Hamilton, not 4.

Jeez with newbie geniuses that don't even bother to watch races.

[SunnyENTP]

no Alonso was eleventy seconds behind Hamilton, not 4.

Jeez with newbie geniuses that don't even bother to watch races.

Newbie? Probably been watching F1 before you were born but I salute you for being on this forum since 2009. You must know a lot shame you have not put into use.

[Pothead4Philosopher]

That makes little sense as slowing behind Sutil would also enable Alonso to have the DRS. Sutil passed too many blue flags before he finally let them through, it's as simple as that. Of course Hamilton is involved so the usual get creative, and this theory gets an A for creativity.

I have absolutely no reason to try to make anyone look bad with this. I just opined on the possibility. If it was, indeed, that Lewis wanted to get past but couldn't, then the stewards made a great call -- and Lewis lost a couple of secs. None of that changes the outcome though. Alonso was too fast.

By the way, not every post is to be seen as some stealthy attack on drivers. Unless that is your own approach, then I get the paranoia.

[Skinnyguy]

Lewis had to follow him almost a full lap. No way he was waiting for anything. Sutil costed him a lot. Backmarkers -and not backmarkers- being lapped were not helpful overall this time.

[ardbeg]

Justified penalty. Sutil claimed rules are unclear, not that Hamilton was not close enough. We know it is hard to stay close behind and Sutil was not slow, just slower than Lewis and Alonso.

[Ragnar668]

I just watched back, they ran a whole lap behind sutil!
Hamilton was about a sec behind sutil at the last chicane in lap 59, and passed him at the end of next lap.

This is what I saw, no way it was because of getting a DRS advantage

[Boxerevo]

"BLUE FLAG !" by Lewis Hamilton.

[undersquare]

It was poor by Sutil. I wouldn't be surprised if engine supplier/technical partner Mercedes have a word about it.

I don't think it made a difference to the outcome though, Nando was within 2s already.

[jcbc3]

I'm a Sutil fan and even I was screaming at the telly to get him get the f... out of the way.

[dau]

Yes that makes sense - let someone who was 4 seconds behind you close up on you to a second so you can use DRS against them. Wow! I love how smart people are on this forum

Alonso was not 4s behind, see below.

Lewis had to follow him almost a full lap. No way he was waiting for anything. Sutil costed him a lot. Backmarkers -and not backmarkers- being lapped were not helpful overall this time.

While i do agree that Sutil should've yielded earlier and the penalty was justified, i don't think he cost Hamilton that much time. His lap times, Alonso's and the gap between them:

Lap HAM ALO Gap
56 1:17.155 1:16.691 +1.489
57 1:16.727 1:16.457 +1.219
58 1:16.646 1:16.429 +1.002
59 1:17.764 1:17.254 +0.492
60 1:16.651 1:16.616 +0.457

Hamilton got a nice DRS tow from Raikkonen in L57 and Sutil in L58 - the latter being the reason Alonso was still just outside that 1s window when they went over the line. L59 was the lap where Sutil was shown blue flags from turn 3 to turn 13 and the one where both of them lapped the Force India. So, relative to Alonso, Lewis lost about half a second. Taking into account Alonso was already catching him at about 2 to 5 tenths a lap, that's not really that bad. And it's clear Alonso would've been in the DRS window for L60 anyway. Getting DRS from Sutil for L59 probably helped to stay ahead for a bit longer, but i'm not sure that was a planned move.

[Burtros]

Hamilton wasnt being clever if he waited until after the DRS line to pass Sutil. Its common sense for any driver these days and really pretty obvious I would have thought.

The penalty was justified though, but at no point was Hamilton 'clever'.

Hamilton rarely shows examples of being a 'clever' driver in my opinion. Even in Canada a few laps later theres a possible example of this weakness - when he failed to copy Alonso's method for passing him in the 2nd DRS zone to retake 2nd place. Seemed odd he chose to try it before the chicane and ended up missing a bit of front wing, like in the excitement of possibly being able to get his place back, he forgot how he'd lost it only a minute before hand.

Thats before you consider Monaco, where in all the excitement of the saftey car and pitstops, he forgot that a GP Driver ALWAYS has to drive as quick as they possibly can and lost out to the Red Bulls.

Edited by Burtros, 11 June 2013 - 10:27.

[robefc]

Hamilton wasnt being clever if he waited until after the DRS line to pass Sutil. Its common sense for any driver these days and really pretty obvious I would have thought.

The penalty was justified though, but at no point was Hamilton 'clever'.

Hamilton rarely shows examples of being a 'clever' driver in my opinion. Even in Canada a few laps later theres a possible example of this weakness - when he failed to copy Alonso's method for passing him in the 2nd DRS zone to retake 2nd place. Seemed odd he chose to try it before the chicane and ended up missing a bit of front wing, like in the excitement of possibly being able to get his place back, he forgot how he'd lost it only a minute before hand.

Thats before you consider Monaco, where in all the excitement of the saftey car and pitstops, he forgot that a GP Driver ALWAYS has to drive as quick as they possibly can and lost out to the Red Bulls.

Well according to him he was quite clever in his second ever race when he duped massa

More seriously china 2011 was a nice bit of thinking, I'm not sure you're being entirely fair if you mean Lewis cannot think strategically about overtaking.

I agree alonso got the better of him in Canada but I'm not sure Lewis's failed repass attempt was down to his failure to appreciate the idea of passing in the second zone. Firstly that doesn't always work, secondly it is possible to pass in the first zone, thirdly he may have been trying to stick close to alonso in order to pass in the second zone but misjudged it, fourthly you might put it down to good driving by alonso.

Also not sure how driving under SC conditions and being told to leave a gap of 6 seconds to your teammate is a good example of how race drivers should always drive as fast as they can, although it is a good example of a Lewis misjudgement.

[Xeriks]

Hamilton wasnt being clever if he waited until after the DRS line to pass Sutil. Its common sense for any driver these days and really pretty obvious I would have thought.

The penalty was justified though, but at no point was Hamilton 'clever'.

Hamilton rarely shows examples of being a 'clever' driver in my opinion. Even in Canada a few laps later theres a possible example of this weakness - when he failed to copy Alonso's method for passing him in the 2nd DRS zone to retake 2nd place. Seemed odd he chose to try it before the chicane and ended up missing a bit of front wing, like in the excitement of possibly being able to get his place back, he forgot how he'd lost it only a minute before hand.

Thats before you consider Monaco, where in all the excitement of the saftey car and pitstops, he forgot that a GP Driver ALWAYS has to drive as quick as they possibly can and lost out to the Red Bulls.

[Juggles]

Well according to him he was quite clever in his second ever race when he duped massa

More seriously china 2011 was a nice bit of thinking, I'm not sure you're being entirely fair if you mean Lewis cannot think strategically about overtaking.

I agree alonso got the better of him in Canada but I'm not sure Lewis's failed repass attempt was down to his failure to appreciate the idea of passing in the second zone. Firstly that doesn't always work, secondly it is possible to pass in the first zone, thirdly he may have been trying to stick close to alonso in order to pass in the second zone but misjudged it, fourthly you might put it down to good driving by alonso.

Also not sure how driving under SC conditions and being told to leave a gap of 6 seconds to your teammate is a good example of how race drivers should always drive as fast as they can, although it is a good example of a Lewis misjudgement.

I reckon it was this one. He didn't go for a dive down the inside, he stayed on the outside as Alonso did a few laps before. The difference is that Hamilton had already used all his KERS whereas Alonso saved a big chunk for the pit straight so by the time Hamilton activated DRS he was too far behind. Alonso gained on Hamilton much faster out of the last corner when he made his pass so I'm guessing he still had some KERS left then too.

Hamilton is a perfectly intelligent driver. The most recent example I can think of is in Monaco when he tried to overtake Webber into the Rascasse; I was watching to see what he did the next lap because I was worried he would go for another dive and Webber would close the door, but he predicted Webber's defence into the corner and chose to go as wide as possible instead (i.e. the opposite approach). He got great drive out of Rascasse and was the closest he got all race going out of Noghes. Annoyingly Vettel was close enough to give Webber DRS, but it was still good tactical driving from Hamilton.

Edited by Juggles, 11 June 2013 - 13:57.

[undersquare]

I reckon it was this one. He didn't go for a dive down the inside, he stayed on the outside as Alonso did a few laps before. The difference is that Hamilton had already used all his KERS whereas Alonso saved a big chunk for the pit straight so by the time Hamilton activated DRS he was too far behind. Alonso gained on Hamilton much faster out of the last corner when he made his pass so I'm guessing he still had some KERS left then too.

Hamilton is a perfectly intelligent driver. The most recent example I can think of is in Monaco when he tried to overtake Webber into the Rascasse; I was watching to see what he did the next lap because I was worried he would go for another dive and Webber would close the door, but he predicted Webber's defence into the corner and chose to go as wide as possible instead (i.e. the opposite approach). He got great drive out of Rascasse and was the closest he got all race going out of Noghes. Annoyingly Vettel was close enough to give Webber DRS, but it was still good tactical driving from Hamilton.

Yeah. We're a bit OT but it looked to me like when Lewis caught Nando, Nando braked early to pin Lewis to the outside and spoil the faster entry that Lewis would otherwise have had. That's why there was contact. Plus Lewis had needed his kers as you say and also Lewis said he was running out of revs.