27 replies to this topic

[ExFlagMan]

Just read a bit in yesterday's Motor Sport News in which Maldonado is complaining about his penalty for collision with Sutil in Canada.
Not sure if it a reporters spin or English not being Pastor's native language but it reports him as saying.
"It wasn't a mistake, it was normal racing contact - I didn't push him off the track".

If that was what he said/meant then it does help explain quite a lot about some of his on-track incidents.

[Sakae]

Language issue. I bet he characterizes the event as a racing incident, rather than premeditated intent.

Edited by Sakae, 13 June 2013 - 09:32.

[icewest07]

I for one believe that penalty was stupid... But what do i know

[baddog]

A completely unintentional driving error in the normal course of driving, resulting from no rash or inappropriate move from a driver, should generally not be penalised in my opinion. The risk of being caught up in someone else's error is just a risk, just like running over someone else's debris.

[icewest07]

A completely unintentional driving error in the normal course of driving, resulting from no rash or inappropriate move from a driver, should generally not be penalised in my opinion. The risk of being caught up in someone else's error is just a risk, just like running over someone else's debris.

This.

Next thing you know they will give penalty to backmarker if their engines blow in front of a Vet-Alo battle and leads one of these two to crash out because they could not see...

[lustigson]

A completely unintentional driving error in the normal course of driving, resulting from no rash or inappropriate move from a driver, should generally not be penalised in my opinion. The risk of being caught up in someone else's error is just a risk, just like running over someone else's debris.

+1

[ExFlagMan]

A completely unintentional driving error in the normal course of driving, resulting from no rash or inappropriate move from a driver, should generally not be penalised in my opinion. The risk of being caught up in someone else's error is just a risk, just like running over someone else's debris.

Isn't that a definition of a 'mistake' - the article stated that Pastor claimed it wasn't a mistake.
Are you saying that over-optomistic driving moves are perfectly acceptable and that it is up to the other guy to get out of your way. To my mind that is not motor racing, it certainly should not be at the 'top level'.

Perhaps my view is biased by too much time spent over the years picking up the pieces and sorting out the aftermath of that kind of attitude in lower levels of racing.

[darkkis]

No matter if this was a translation error, there's a seed of truth in there. Too often are penalties handed over consequences rather than actions.

[Diablobb81]

Well, Lewis wasn't punished for the same thing. And judging only by consequences makes it too subjective.

[ExFlagMan]

No matter if this was a translation error, there's a seed of truth in there. Too often are penalties handed over consequences rather than actions.

So you wouldn't mind if someone rear-ends Kimi and ruins his race?

The problem with letting these little over-optomistic moves go is that the drivers tend to push the envelope more and more until we get the inevitable 'big-one'.

[baddog]

Isn't that a definition of a 'mistake' - the article stated that Pastor claimed it wasn't a mistake.
Are you saying that over-optomistic driving moves are perfectly acceptable and that it is up to the other guy to get out of your way. To my mind that is not motor racing, it certainly should not be at the 'top level'.

Perhaps my view is biased by too much time spent over the years picking up the pieces and sorting out the aftermath of that kind of attitude in lower levels of racing.

No no.. over optimistic driving moves are absolutely what should be penalised, I am completely on your side. Hell sometimes that kind of thing doesn't get penalised while a bit of a lockup or slide that happens as a side effect to cause a contact, when the driver was not attempting anything out of the ordinary (often not even attempting an overtake) is now often a cause for penalties.

The current formula with big front wings and amazing diffusers is a recipe for rear hits to happen sometimes.. cars can suddenly have much less front grip than expected.

I am not defending pastor in general by the way, he is a maniac too often, him and perez are a real worry. I am intepreting the word 'mistake' as just bad english there though, he clearly made a mistake/error.

[RedRocksF1]

I am not defending pastor in general by the way, he is a maniac too often, him and perez are a real worry.

Uff, then what about Grosjean? Or the battles in 2011 between Massa and Lewis? They are more than maniac aren´t them?

A bit exagerated they are a real worry. The only real worry I´ve seen over last years is Grosjean, and some move of Schumi over Rubens.

I wouldn´t penalise a mistake, but I´d do with excesive risks maneouvres, like Perez over Raikkonen in Monaco.

[alframsey]

I was under that assumption that F1 has always been a contact sport?

[SenorSjon]

So you wouldn't mind if someone rear-ends Kimi and ruins his race?

The problem with letting these little over-optomistic moves go is that the drivers tend to push the envelope more and more until we get the inevitable 'big-one'.

If Perez-Kimi was a racing incident, why did Maldonado get a penalty? I'm not in favor of the guy, but this penalty was stupd.

[ExFlagMan]

If Perez-Kimi was a racing incident, why did Maldonado get a penalty? I'm not in favor of the guy, but this penalty was stupd.

Maybe as Perez didn't finish that was defined as being sifficient penalty.

I would be interested to see what posters define as being acceptable and not acceptable on track behaviour. Might make an interesting diversion from endless circular discussions over 'tyregate'.

[smitten]

Maybe as Perez didn't finish that was defined as being sifficient penalty.

I don't know why this self punishment line is so oft repeated. Surely if an action requires punishment then punishment should be meted out? If the driver manages to end their own race before justice can be handed down then the punishment is applied to the next grid.

[redreni]

Maybe as Perez didn't finish that was defined as being sifficient penalty.

I would be interested to see what posters define as being acceptable and not acceptable on track behaviour. Might make an interesting diversion from endless circular discussions over 'tyregate'.

I think one-off mistakes are acceptable, but it is important that the stewards come down hard on persistent idiocy. Drivers who see red and crash on purpose (Maldonado), who ignore yellows and run over marshals (Maldonado) or who fail to slow down and then crash under red flag conditions so that marshals have to dive over the armco to save themselves (Maldonado) should be punished in a much more serious way. I think F1 has it about right generally speaking, but I do worry about weak enforcement of yellow flag rules. If you compare F1 to, say, VLN, in both cases the yellow flag means "slow down and be prepared to stop". In VLN the drivers know that, if they see a waved yellow, they might come around a corner and find a wrecked car on line. F1 drivers have come to expect a safety car for any incident where the racing line is not available, so they see a yellow flag and still drive round a blind corner at 9/10ths because they expect the line to be clear. That‘s why when a serious incident happens in F1, the risk of a secondary accident is higher than it ought to be because, in the seconds before the decision to deploy the SC can be made, the waved yellow flag is used, and the drivers take very little notice of it. I would prefer it if we could get back to a scenario where drivers respect the flags properly. The worst example was Brazil 2003 when Alonso ignored yellow flags, damn near killed himself and a marshal who was standing trackside at the flat-out last turn at Interlagos, caused a red flag, and was given no penalty. In fact, due to the fact he was one of the last drivers to pit, he gained places from the red flag countback and was classified third, which is higher than he would have finished if he had respected the yellow flag and the race had gone the distance with him still running.

[Andrew Hope]

Grosjean and Maldonado crash accidentally and they need to be banned from the sport. Senna and Prost try to kill each other and any marshals or fans who might've been in the way and they're heroes of the sport. If it happens now it's evil, if it happened then it's history.

[g1n]

Grosjean and Maldonado crash accidentally and they need to be banned from the sport. Senna and Prost try to kill each other and any marshals or fans who might've been in the way and they're heroes of the sport. If it happens now it's evil, if it happened then it's history.

Back then it was ok, if it happened now both Prost and Senna would be banned. It is a bit like when MSC tried to put Barichello in to a wall recently, there was a big uproar but in the 90's nobody would care...

[pingu666]

weve had some dubious moves go unpunished, mostly guys pulling over to defend then going back onto racing line very close to the competitor in the braking zone. webber has done that a fair few times :\

gently running into the back of someone is pretty benign

[AlexS]

I was under that assumption that F1 has always been a contact sport?

Really? 40-50 years ago a simple contact might mean death, specially with tiny wheels.

Edited by AlexS, 13 June 2013 - 23:30.

[fullhouse]

Isn't that a definition of a 'mistake' - the article stated that Pastor claimed it wasn't a mistake.
Are you saying that over-optomistic driving moves are perfectly acceptable and that it is up to the other guy to get out of your way. To my mind that is not motor racing, it certainly should not be at the 'top level'.

Perhaps my view is biased by too much time spent over the years picking up the pieces and sorting out the aftermath of that kind of attitude in lower levels of racing.

Sportsmen attempt over optimistic moves all the time, in wide variety's of sport. It's what makes it exciting and challenging, and risky, and it's what spectators want to see, yet today in an increasingly over regulated world, racing drivers get penalised for mistakes just as every driver do on public roads for speeding etc. Its completely ridiculous an unnecessary and just a continuation of the never ending sanitation of our sport with the removal of troublesome gravel traps, and curbs on exists of fast corners, to ensure drivers are not punished for mistakes and for 'safety'. Soon the sport won't be worth watching because it will be so over regulated, but it won't stop, just as the governments wire tapping everyone's communications for their 'safety' won't stop either.

The sport was fine for decades with none of these silly penalties for accidents, as it was just an accepted part of the sport, but then the FIA started listening to the cry baby drivers, and we have gone down with this path.

[packapoo]

Only if Kimi has his way.

[KnucklesAgain]

Sportsmen attempt over optimistic moves all the time, in wide variety's of sport. It's what makes it exciting and challenging, and risky, and it's what spectators want to see, yet today in an increasingly over regulated world, racing drivers get penalised for mistakes just as every driver do on public roads for speeding etc. Its completely ridiculous an unnecessary and just a continuation of the never ending sanitation of our sport with the removal of troublesome gravel traps, and curbs on exists of fast corners, to ensure drivers are not punished for mistakes and for 'safety'. Soon the sport won't be worth watching because it will be so over regulated, but it won't stop, just as the governments wire tapping everyone's communications for their 'safety' won't stop either.

The sport was fine for decades with none of these silly penalties for accidents, as it was just an accepted part of the sport, but then the FIA started listening to the cry baby drivers, and we have gone down with this path.

In the 80ies in football, terrible fouls were frequent and not dealt with consistently firm. Opinions changed and such things are much rarer today, partly because the governing bodies noticed a change in opinion among the spectators, and partly because everyone started to see the need to market to new potential customers. Deliberate potentially career ending fouls like that rarely happen today, and in general the good players are better protected now and actually able to play the game. It was good for the sport.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 14 June 2013 - 21:35.

[fullhouse]

In the 80ies in football, terrible fouls were frequent and not dealt with consistently firm. Opinions changed and such things are much rarer today, partly because the governing bodies noticed a change in opinion among the spectators, and partly because everyone started to see the need to market to new potential customers. Deliberate potentially career ending fouls like that rarely happen today, and in general the good players are better protected now and actually able to play the game. It was good for the sport.

Punish drivers for deliberate fouls, but not for mistakes. The whole idea is so stupid and does nothing to enhance the sport , it just strangles it.

[ExFlagMan]

Punish drivers for deliberate fouls, but not for mistakes. The whole idea is so stupid and does nothing to enhance the sport , it just strangles it.

But what about 'deliberate mistakes' - some drivers are pretty good at moves that look like mistakes but definitely have more than a hint of intention about them.

[KnucklesAgain]

Punish drivers for deliberate fouls, but not for mistakes. The whole idea is so stupid and does nothing to enhance the sport , it just strangles it.

I can agree with that mostly, but just like in footie, some participants are overoptimistic too often, and what starts as a mistake ends as a foul. I think that needs a response as well. Edit: Even in the linked video, one could argue that Goikoetxea may have tried to play the ball but his move simply came too late.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 15 June 2013 - 11:35.

[OldSoldier2]

I was under that assumption that F1 has always been a contact sport?

No, once it was referred to as a blood sport. Those days are behind us, I hope.

The drivers are very talented but at the speeds these guys race contact will happen. Whether knuckleheads like Maldonado and Grosjean should be penalized or not is worthy of debate.