238 replies to this topic

[JohnnySchwaffel]

obvious 'something' is at work there.... drivers can't create this by hand (or foot of course).

Anti-wheelspin-like system. controlling the traction, under the name of engine mapping, could still be a traction control-like system, ...

Are we all sure these marks are made only with a Red Bull?

[Brother Fox]

No! Look at the pics above!

[Beamer]

No! Look at the pics above!

The pics above don't show who made the skidmarks....

(btw: i think it's a BS story).

[mnmracer]

The pics above don't show who made the skidmarks....

The picture of Force India clearly showed who made that one.

[st99]

obvious 'something' is at work there.... drivers can't create this by hand (or foot of course).

Anti-wheelspin-like system. controlling the traction, under the name of engine mapping, could still be a traction control-like system, ...

Are we all sure these marks are made only with a Red Bull?

This pic already posted shows a Force India leaving marks very similar, and watching the Canadian GP again I saw Rosberg leaving them as well.


(If you want to see the the pic bigger https://pbs.twimg.co...2MvY.jpg:large

Edited by st99, 19 June 2013 - 13:16.

[DS27]

Oh No - So half the F1 field is cheating

[Beamer]

The picture of Force India clearly showed who made that one.

missed that one....

[mnmracer]

Such tire marks cannot be the undisputed proof that Red Bull is using some sort of a traction control device.

In 1984-1985, the Michelin-shod F1 cars used to leave similar tire marks on the tarmac under powerful accelerations. Michelin’s Pierre Dupasquier explained at the time that the flexible sidewalls of the radial Michelin tire generated major tire deformation under extreme loads, producing these marks, as there were no traction control systems at the time.

This photo taken by WRI2.net last year shows similar tire marks, again caused by the deformation of the tire under acceleration.

Edited by mnmracer, 19 June 2013 - 14:59.

[Tenmantaylor]

Could just as easily be bumpy track surface or **** pirelli tyres.

And afterall, under heavy stress tyres do squirm and deform as they scrabble for grip.

This is speculation of the highest order based on zero actual evidence.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 19 June 2013 - 15:07.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Here's the problem:

Vettel has been out of DRS worry in the first two laps of how many races from pole?

At the bare minimum, that means he's pulling out 1/2 a second per lap, right?

Why isn't he consistently qualifying 1/2 second on top....? He was a tenth ahead of Hamilton in Montreal in qualifying, but he was *2 seconds ahead of Lewis by the 2nd lap*.


Why is the Redbull 2 seconds faster PER LAP in the race than it seemingly is in qualifying? Or is Vettel just that good, that he suddenly in every race finds 1-2 seconds in ONE LAP over everyone else?

Sorry, something has to be going on IMO, that doesn't make sense.

[HP]

Well if that is TC (which it clearly isn't), then they should fire whoever programmed that. Or they use stone ago computer in these cars. Isn't the point of TC to avoid exactly situations like that? Those marks don't look like electronics are helping to maintain optimal traction at all.

If we'd see a consistent clear black mark on a bumpy surface, then we'd have to get suspicious.

[skywing]

QUOTE ("Auto123.com")
Such tire marks cannot be the undisputed proof that Red Bull is using some sort of a traction control device.

In 1984-1985, the Michelin-shod F1 cars used to leave similar tire marks on the tarmac under powerful accelerations. Michelin’s Pierre Dupasquier explained at the time that the flexible sidewalls of the radial Michelin tire generated major tire deformation under extreme loads, producing these marks, as there were no traction control systems at the time.

This photo taken by WRI2.net last year shows similar tire marks, again caused by the deformation of the tire under acceleration.

OMG ban them all!!

[HP]

Here's the problem:

Vettel has been out of DRS worry in the first two laps of how many races from pole?

At the bare minimum, that means he's pulling out 1/2 a second per lap, right?

Why isn't he consistently qualifying 1/2 second on top....? He was a tenth ahead of Hamilton in Montreal in qualifying, but he was *2 seconds ahead of Lewis by the 2nd lap*.


Why is the Redbull 2 seconds faster PER LAP in the race than it seemingly is in qualifying? Or is Vettel just that good, that he suddenly in every race finds 1-2 seconds in ONE LAP over everyone else?

Sorry, something has to be going on IMO, that doesn't make sense.

Remember Montoya? He was a class above anyone else on colder tires. Look at his overtaking moves with cold tires, especially the one on MS in Brazil. So there are is at least one driver besides Vettel, who was even celebrated for his ability to pull out a great lap with cold tires. Nobody claimed Montoya was cheating. And to say something fishy is going on, then at least Webber would be able to do the same. On the contrary Webber most the time goes backwards at the start. And RBR would be not thinking clealry if they wouldn't give Webber the same advantage so that they can come home in 1/2, and seal an easy WCC.

Besides that, Canada was not a completely dry qualifying, while the race was. That explains why their times in the race was faster than usual. Before Canada you will find post on this board here where people express their displeasure that lap times in the race are sometimes up to 6 seconds slower than in qualy.

[Diablobb81]

Sorry, something has to be going on IMO, that doesn't make sense.

Tires, tires, tires. Is there anything else to talk about in F1 besides those awful tires.

[V3TT3L]

Exactly. When you get wheelspin, it doesn't always spin at a regular speed, it jutters as it finds/loses grip. This seems like nonsense to me.

Yes

Watching NASCAR NNS race last year at the same track, same curve.
The curve is a low speed, low radius. Cars are comming out of it with the tire walls still flexed and drivers urge to accelerate as soon as possible to swallow the mild curved/straight segment of the track.

When overdone, acceleration breaks the grip [track/tire] capacity of the unsprung mass[tire/wheel] by far and can't win the sprung mass inertia [car body], causing the threadmarks.
Then we have two situations:
A> torque < sprung mass inertia => unsprung weight [tire/wheel] reduces speed until below traction BEP capacity levels, ceasing to leave threadmarks.
B> torque > sprung mass inertia => unsprung weight [tire/wheel] increases speed until tire deforms and the tire/wheel enters a vertical oscillating movement [wheel hop], therefore tire/traction keep kicking in/out, leaving intermitent threadmarks, until the tire/wheel loses speed below the traction capacity Break Even Point and stop leaving threadmarks.

To overcome this undesired effect [wheel hop] Villeneuve simply blimp the brakes, to settle down/bring stability to the tire/wheel combo and apply steady and progressive acceleration.

Edited by V3TT3L, 19 June 2013 - 17:53.

[anbeck]

Sorry, I couldn't be bothered to read through the whole thread.

But couldn't it just be the rev limiter?

[techspeed]

Here's the problem:

Vettel has been out of DRS worry in the first two laps of how many races from pole?

At the bare minimum, that means he's pulling out 1/2 a second per lap, right?

Why isn't he consistently qualifying 1/2 second on top....? He was a tenth ahead of Hamilton in Montreal in qualifying, but he was *2 seconds ahead of Lewis by the 2nd lap*.

Because the Red Bull uses a Renault engine, which is lighter on fuel than the Ferrari or Mercedes. It means they don't have to put as much fuel in before the start so Red Bull has a decent weight advantage at the beginning of the race. In qualifying they all run on minimum fuel so all cars weight about the same.
Nothing to do with traction control.

[cheesy poofs]

Went to have a look at the track today to see if any evidence was left on the tarmac. I posted a pic on twitter that shows Webber's tyre marks on the left and you can also see a similar pattern to the right of the Red Bull driver's tyre marks.

http://twitter.com/c...0860288/photo/1

[nosecone]

yes it is frustrating to see RB dominating our sport, but i guess the dominance has nothing to do with cheating.

There were some cases where the FiA had to clarify some things but this is no evidence that RB is cheating. They just build fast cars and have a lot of money. Look how refined the cars look, this maybe explains their speed.

My guess on the topic:
The tyre marks were caused either by oscilliating tyre/ drive shaft or by tyre deformation or bumps

Please say that i don't sound like a RB fanatic, do I?

Edited by nosecone, 19 June 2013 - 20:11.

[redreni]

LOL. Not the same thing at all. There is no debate regarding the regulation in Mercedes' case. The only thing remaining to be seen is whether someone at FIA screwed up and gave permission or whether there is a legal loophole to allow as an EXCEPTION TO THE RULE to run the test. There is no debate regarding a loophole in the sporting regulation itself.

Furthermore, go ahead and believe whatever you want. The discussion here isn't that Red Bull was found to be doing something and we're deciding if they are cheating or not. NOTHING FREAKING HAPPENED HERE and it has already been explained.

If you think it is a good analogy to claim they are cheating based on...nothing, go ahead.

I don't think there's anything in this thread and I'm not accusing Red Bull of anything on this occasion, I just had my egg whisk out. Couldn't resist, sorry.

[Brother Fox]

Sorry, I couldn't be bothered to read through the whole thread.

But couldn't it just be the rev limiter?

I think its been established that it could be pretty much anything except traction control, yet some people still want to argue and accuse

[lbennie]

haha, this thread has taken an entertaining turn... they must all be using traction control - omg!

[ExFlagMan]

haha, this thread has taken an entertaining turn... they must all be using traction control - omg!

Of course they are - it's what the drivers right foot is there for.

[DS27]

It's now clear that any cars NOT doing this and leaving one constant black line are the ones using a workable traction control. Obviously Red Bull are still perfecting theirs as it loses traction far to often...

[Boxerevo]

Damn,this is becoming worse than Schumi 5 consecutives titles already.

[britishtrident]

Teams generally only complain when they can't get away with something themselves. If it were TC (which it isn't) the other teams would still be working out/prototyping how to get away with it.

It isn't puka traction control but it might some sort quasi traction control and if it is I think Red Bull is not alone in having it as some cars have noticeable better traction out of slow corners.

But on the other hand it could be a flat spotted tyre.

Edited by britishtrident, 20 June 2013 - 15:23.

[ardbeg]

Looks like some clever solution for the diff

[Tenmantaylor]

Omg stop it with the conspiracies, it's wheel or tyre hop or high frequency tyre deformation. If it was TC it wouldn't be painting black lines anyway ffs as the tyres wouldn't be slipping enough unless it's some new fangled **** TC that doesn't work. Use some common sense you muppets.

[black magic]

Vettekl is explained by red bull being rel light on tyres so he does push harder than the others lap 1 and 2 to simply get out of DRS. ttAccentuated by the others, esp mercedes tip toeing around so terrified of killing their tyres

once in front, out of drs vettel isnt affected by others, cant be pinged via drs and suddenly he looks million dollars.

contrast monaco when he couldnt play that game after first 2 laps actually looked like struggling as much if not more than mercedes.

just blame **** tyres whereby drivers have to under drive first part of even their qualifying lap to make sure the tyre can perform after even the single lap.

[ExFlagMan]

Looks like some clever solution for the diff

If it's the diff then it looks more like a problem with the diff

[Winter98]

Because the Red Bull uses a Renault engine, which is lighter on fuel than the Ferrari or Mercedes. It means they don't have to put as much fuel in before the start so Red Bull has a decent weight advantage at the beginning of the race. In qualifying they all run on minimum fuel so all cars weight about the same.
Nothing to do with traction control.

Thanks for the tech tidbit techspeed.

[motorhead]

I would be more worried about Ferrari when looking at their starts

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

they don't have to put as much fuel in before the start so Red Bull has a decent weight advantage at the beginning of the race. In qualifying they all run on minimum fuel so all cars weight about the same.
Nothing to do with traction control.

I can't see that equaling a second a lap, particularly for the lap following the start. Not when a light run in qualifying is maybe half a second faster, and that's between the difference of empty tanks and full. The efficiencies has to make fuel consumption pretty tight between the engine manufacturers. If that is the case, then surely it wouldn't be more than Vettel's weight difference with Webber - which would mean Webber's pace in reality would be better than Vettel's per start car weight.

/ just taking the nephrotic excursion for fun, you know

[Uwe]

Mmmhyes, with an engine control unit manufactured by McLaren and constantly controlled by the FIA it is ridiculously easy for Red Bull to cheat and fudge it into some sort of TC.

I guess the biggest piece of evidence in the whole thing is this:

Italian publication Autosprint suspects

[st99]

I can't see that equaling a second a lap, particularly for the lap following the start. Not when a light run in qualifying is maybe half a second faster, and that's between the difference of empty tanks and full. The efficiencies has to make fuel consumption pretty tight between the engine manufacturers. If that is the case, then surely it wouldn't be more than Vettel's weight difference with Webber - which would mean Webber's pace in reality would be better than Vettel's per start car weight.

/ just taking the nephrotic excursion for fun, you know

I think RB advantage on the first laps is related to their short 7th gear, that helps them when the car is heavy.

Edited by st99, 21 June 2013 - 13:22.

[Dunder]

I think RB advantage on the first laps is related to their short 7th gear, that helps them when the car is heavy.

Yup. A thirsty (heavy) Mercedes combined with a more frugal RBR which has shorter gearing.

[bourbon]

I hope RBR is cheating their arses off and getting away with it. Then at least they can feel some equinimity in the sport...if you can't beat um, join um.

[weltmeister1995]

Mmmhyes, with an engine control unit manufactured by McLaren and constantly controlled by the FIA it is ridiculously easy for Red Bull to cheat and fudge it into some sort of TC.

I guess the biggest piece of evidence in the whole thing is this:

True story mate,very good one you made my day...

[V3TT3L]

RedBull is cheating... they are using their BRAINS... how could them ... how dare