3226 replies to this topic

[andrea303]

Hmm yes but Mateschitz is a Kimi fan he has said so, so if he chooses Daniel it's only because Kimi didn't agree on Red Bull deal/ wanted to stay at Lotus, not because Mateschitz wanted Dan.

But if it isn't about money then what is it about? Long term commitment? That's the only thing I can imagine. I think Kimi might be ready for 2 year-long contract but no more than that.

Edited by andrea303, 25 July 2013 - 19:17.

[SpaMaster]

There are some points in negative column picking up a new guy without him having any racing experience with a top team.

1. He has to be good enough to support WCC target.
2. How he will react in T1 after start, when he is marginally behind Vettel, but thinks he see an opening? Dives he in, or not?

I am not suggesting he should back off, but concern is, whether he is a cold headed individual, or acts like some hot heads when they sided next to Michael Schumacher, as one not so famous, but certainly pompous Russian declared once: "I don't break for Schumacher". There is no harm to be hungry, as long as it is clean.

And Schumacher was clean? Are you saying that the reason that particular hot-head acted like that with Schumacher was purely his fault and the other driver was never to blame for any of it? You should stop your condescending attitude in favour of the lead drivers you discuss - Vettel in this case and Schumacher earlier. Don't project as if these drivers are victims of their wannabe teammates.

Edited by SpaMaster, 25 July 2013 - 19:19.

[Vesuvius]

Saw Kimi interview from mtv3 now and Oskari Saari asked him about the Ricciardo-RBR rumours and Kimi said with small grin that both (RBR&Lotus) seats are open and things haven't changed and we will know it when time is right.... After that Mtv3 showed Steve Robertson talking with Eric Boullier at Lotus motorhome.

[Vesuvius]

But if it isn't about money then what is it about? Long term commitment? That's the only thing I can imagine. I think Kimi might be ready for 2 year-long contract but no more than that.

Kimi has said alreaydy it's not anout money or pr, it's little details that are important for him and may seems stupid for outsiders....like what he is allowed to do in his freetime, what he can wear at paaddock, what to say in interviews, the lenght of the contract...it could be all those kind of things.

[bub]

I'm really not sure, could go either way but I'll go with Kimi based on speed, consistency, experience & feedback with rule change imminent and marketing reasons. If they go with Ricciardo I think it will be because they have faith in him, are thinking longer term and want someone a bit less likely to take points off Vettel.

[motorhead]

I'm really not sure, could go either way but I'll go with Kimi based on speed, consistency, experience & feedback with rule change imminent and marketing reasons. If they go with Ricciardo I think it will be because they have faith in him, are thinking longer term and want someone a bit less likely to take points off Vettel.

Yeah and with Ricciardo they can prove that that their young driver program brings results. For Vettel´s sake I hope it will be Kimi though. Maybe then he proves that he is a worthy champion for bashers....or not

[Yoshi]

Saw Kimi interview from mtv3 now and Oskari Saari asked him about the Ricciardo-RBR rumours and Kimi said with small grin that both (RBR&Lotus) seats are open and things haven't changed and we will know it when time is right.... After that Mtv3 showed Steve Robertson talking with Eric Boullier at Lotus motorhome.

Thank you for all the information from mtv3.

[cokeb]

Going to Red Bull might seem stupid to some as he'd be going up against Sebastian in his own team, and there is no guarantee Red Bull will be on top of the regulation changes.

Staying with Lotus might seem stupid to some as there is a higher chance of Red Bull being on top next year than Lotus continuing their good run.

So who knows.

[Vesuvius]

Well now Heikki Kulta TS claims that RBR-Ricciardo is just a smokescreen that they have to give publicity to their junior program-Toro Rosso and that Mateschitz wants Kimi and he usually gets his wish eventually trough like happened with Newey and A1Ring....and he thinks that eventually the deal will be signed by both Kimi and Mateschitz.

Also TS has comments from Kimi and Steve Robertson:

Kimi:
" I haven't made up mind yet and I won't do it this weekend either. It is not only in my own hands but at least on my knowdledge both seats RBR-Lotus are open."

Robertson said he is very busy this weekend and that the contract wont most likely not be signed during july.

Edited by Vesuvius, 25 July 2013 - 21:05.

[v@sh]

Riccirado and Vergne are fast indeed. What the YDT proved was that the speed is there but also there were some gravel and rookie mistakes. I think DR in a Lotus or anything better than STR could be a nice upgrade and as he matures - then he would jump to RBR. Kimi isn't gonna race for long but Vettel could also and probably will be a future Ferrari driver.

Wow so ONE minor off at YDT and you dismiss them as rookies when DR is trying to find the limit of the RB yet how many rookie mistakes has he made all year. Lame, the one off was minor and I hardly doubt the people at RB will worry about that or other drivers for that matter. Plenty of experienced drivers do that and worse.

[intelligentsia]

The time lines might be real the real story to follow here. Ricciardo has received a lot of praise these past 3 weeks from Red Bull. Red Bull first said that they would like to make an announcement before Hungary, then it was moved to somewhere in the summer break, and now according to Horner they are suddenly willing to wait until Monza.

Ricciardo is right there under their noses, and they have clearly been praising him. They could have signed and announced him ages ago, but instead of just signing him, they are willing to wait longer to make an announcement? This despite reports that they are eager to get the 2nd Red Bull seat resolved.

Ricciardo might end up getting this seat, but the longer Red Bull is willing to delay any decisions or announcements, the more it shows that Ricciardo is not their first choice. They could have announced Ricciardo ages ago.


Kimi said some interesting things today, and Steve Robertson is once again in the paddock this weekend. It wouldn't surprise me if Steve Robertson was also working on trying to secure another team besides Red Bull and Lotus. Kimi has mentioned more then once that one engine manufacturer might have a big advantage next season. Right now both Lotus and Red Bull are Renault teams, you would want some options with another manufacturer. Competitiveness for next season seems to be a big factor to Kimi.

[andrea303]

Wow so ONE minor off at YDT and you dismiss them as rookies when DR is trying to find the limit of the RB yet how many rookie mistakes has he made all year. Lame, the one off was minor and I hardly doubt the people at RB will worry about that or other drivers for that matter. Plenty of experienced drivers do that and worse.

Pardon my french. What I meant to say was that during YDT and both drivers' efforts during the season have proven great deal speed but not the level of consistency and maturity. Overall not enough raw skill for RBR seat IMHO. At least not yet. In terms of points Vergne has actually more points from 2011 and 2012. If you look what Vettel did on his journey at STR (points + pole&win @ Monza 2008) neither driver is there. Kimi's first season with Sauber was huge as well.

We're talking about Formula One frontrunner team's seat here. Again, it is a big business and no matter how you put it every team fills their driver seats with the best possible lineup for creating better results and to make more profit. To get there you need a) the fastest possible driver b) a big sponsor to bring money to the team -> paydrivers c) both a+b

What comes to raw speed the margin between top drivers and the rest can be only few tenths of a second but the thin line of excellency is what matters. There are only handful of that talented drivers in F1 and only one of them is available for signing for 2014.

Mateschitz doesn't need to prove anything about their test driver program. Vettel is an example that it works but not every driver who drive STR is going to sit at the Red Bull seat. In my opinion Ricciardo or Vergne might actually fit to RBR someday But I think they're the ones who need to prove if they really are ready for championship caliber team. At least Red Bull now knows their potential future drivers well. What you don't want is an overhyped one-hit-wonder like Perez.

Edited by andrea303, 25 July 2013 - 22:54.

[plumtree]

The time lines might be real the real story to follow here. Ricciardo has received a lot of praise these past 3 weeks from Red Bull. Red Bull first said that they would like to make an announcement before Hungary, then it was moved to somewhere in the summer break, and now according to Horner they are suddenly willing to wait until Monza.

Ricciardo is right there under their noses, and they have clearly been praising him. They could have signed and announced him ages ago, but instead of just signing him, they are willing to wait longer to make an announcement? This despite reports that they are eager to get the 2nd Red Bull seat resolved.

Ricciardo might end up getting this seat, but the longer Red Bull is willing to delay any decisions or announcements, the more it shows that Ricciardo is not their first choice. They could have announced Ricciardo ages ago.


Kimi said some interesting things today, and Steve Robertson is once again in the paddock this weekend. It wouldn't surprise me if Steve Robertson was also working on trying to secure another team besides Red Bull and Lotus. Kimi has mentioned more then once that one engine manufacturer might have a big advantage next season. Right now both Lotus and Red Bull are Renault teams, you would want some options with another manufacturer. Competitiveness for next season seems to be a big factor to Kimi.

I thought the decision was always said to be made in August. When did they say it'd be 'before' Hungary? Interesting view regarding the deadline being pushed back a bit though.

"We will take the summer break to reflect and then after the summer break [the announcement] will be at Spa or Monza but it's certainly not going to be later than that,"

[JimmyRecard]

Pardon my french. What I meant to say was that during YDT and both drivers' efforts during the season have proven great deal speed but not the level of consistency and maturity. Overall not enough raw skill for RBR seat IMHO. At least not yet. In terms of points Vergne has actually more points from 2011 and 2012. If you look what Vettel did on his journey at STR (points + pole&win @ Monza 2008) neither driver is there. Kimi's first season with Sauber was huge as well.

We're talking about Formula One frontrunner team's seat here. Again, it is a big business and no matter how you put it every team fills their driver seats with the best possible lineup for creating better results and to make more profit. To get there you need a) the fastest possible driver b) a big sponsor to bring money to the team -> paydrivers c) both a+b

What comes to raw speed the margin between top drivers and the rest can be only few tenths of a second but the thin line of excellency is what matters. There are only handful of that talented drivers in F1 and only one of them is available for signing for 2014.

Mateschitz doesn't need to prove anything about their test driver program. Vettel is an example that it works but not every driver who drive STR is going to sit at the Red Bull seat. In my opinion Ricciardo or Vergne might actually fit to RBR someday But I think they're the ones who need to prove if they really are ready for championship caliber team. At least Red Bull now knows their potential future drivers well. What you don't want is an overhyped one-hit-wonder like Perez.

This again? Vettel had a customer Red bull at his disposal with a more powerful engine than the RBR. There is no possible way you can compare what Vettel did when at STR with the results of the current drivers in at best a midfield car.

[Coops3]

If Kimi does indeed have a free choice then he'd be mad to pass up a seat in what's been the fastest car over the last few years, regardless of who he'd be going up against and what publicity might be involved. Do the right thing Kimi!

If he does have a free choice and opts to stay at Lotus, people will say he bottled it, not that I imagine he'd care.

Edited by Coops3, 25 July 2013 - 23:11.

[v@sh]

Pardon my french. What I meant to say was that during YDT and both drivers' efforts during the season have proven great deal speed but not the level of consistency and maturity. Overall not enough raw skill for RBR seat IMHO. At least not yet. In terms of points Vergne has actually more points from 2011 and 2012. If you look what Vettel did on his journey at STR (points + pole&win @ Monza 2008) neither driver is there. Kimi's first season with Sauber was huge as well.

I agree the consistency is not quite there yet, but that is also partly masked by the poor strategy STR give both drivers (e.g. DR would have finished 4th/5th at Silverstone if they pitted him at the same time as Rosberg/Webber etc not to mention poor pitstops). Overall not enough raw skill? Right...if you look at the times at YDT you can see that DR was only 3 tenths behind Vettel's best lap on new hards while Vettel did his on new mediums (fuel loads aside). If cannot see that DR has been putting the TR where is doesn't belong i.e. top 10 then do you expect poles or top 3's from them in a car that is midfield. There are IMO at least 10 cars quicker than the TRs this season.

Comparing Vettel's STR to today's STR is a joke. Vettel had the best rain chassis that year - one built by Newey and the most powerful engine at Monza. Heck Bourdais would have qualified third if Webber hadn't pipped him at the end. Not to mention the competition is much stronger now. Neither driver is there because the car isn't there yet DR has shown that he can put the car where is doesn't belong.

As to points where Vergne was ahead of Ricciardo, you just look at the points rather than the story. Korea, DR was way ahead of Vergne before brake problems and would have had more points. Monza DR's car failed on the last lap when he was in the points again. Vergne is very good in mixed conditions, the only weakness right now I see of DRs but other than that DR has him covered everywhere else.

Some of these polls, whether it be forum polls or the FB poll that RB created is always going to be in favor of Kimi as he has been an established driver and would have far more fans anyway.

Edited by v@sh, 26 July 2013 - 00:28.

[Viryfan]

I agree the consistency is not quite there yet, but that is also partly masked by the poor strategy STR give both drivers (e.g. DR would have finished 4th/5th at Silverstone if they pitted him at the same time as Rosberg/Webber etc not to mention poor pitstops). Overall not enough raw skill? Right...if you look at the times at YDT you can see that DR was only 3 tenths behind Vettel's best lap on new hards while Vettel did his on new mediums (fuel loads aside). If cannot see that DR has been putting the TR where is doesn't belong i.e. top 10 then do you expect poles or top 3's from them in a car that is midfield. There are IMO at least 10 cars quicker than the TRs this season.

Comparing Vettel's STR to today's STR is a joke. Vettel had the best rain chassis that year - one built by Newey and the most powerful engine at Monza. Heck Bourdais would have qualified third if Webber hadn't pipped him at the end. Not to mention the competition is much stronger now. Neither driver is there because the car isn't there yet DR has shown that he can put the car where is doesn't belong.

As to points where Vergne was ahead of Ricciardo, you just look at the points rather than the story. Korea, DR was way ahead of Vergne before brake problems and would have had more points. Monza DR's car failed on the last lap when he was in the points again. Vergne is very good in mixed conditions, the only weakness right now I see of DRs but other than that DR has him covered everywhere else.

Some of these polls, whether it be forum polls or the FB poll that RB created is always going to be in favor of Kimi as he has been an established driver and would have far more fans anyway.

JEV lost 6 points in Monaco due to a wrong strategy last year.

He also lost points in Abu Dhabi due to second saefty car.

At Singapore his race was destroyed by Schumacher and Kartikeyan crash causing an SC ruining his strategy.

[v@sh]

JEV lost 6 points in Monaco due to a wrong strategy last year.

He also lost points in Abu Dhabi due to second saefty car.

At Singapore his race was destroyed by Schumacher and Kartikeyan crash causing an SC ruining his strategy.

Which is why I mentioned the poor strategy STR give both drivers and unfortunate circumstances I might add. That Monaco decision was a complete brain fade by STR but that's not new.

What you pointed out was a generalisation but that's where I've seen Vergne score most of his points from - whether that being as a result of mixed conditions in qualifying or the race. Canada was a surprise and easily his best race all year, that was brilliant and if he kept doing that more often it would be him right now in the frame of the RB and not DR. I still think DR is the stronger of the two.

[Blackmore]

Well now Heikki Kulta TS claims that RBR-Ricciardo is just a smokescreen

I was of this opinion all the time. They are upping one of their own drivers and getting themselves a lot of publicity while they already know Kimi will get it. No way that a team like RBR will choose an average driver like Ricciardo (whom really hasn't shown anything spectacular in the 2 and a half years in F1) above a top driver like Kimi. There is a big chance Vettel will be at Ferrari in 2015 (clausules) and even a bigger chance in 2016. Kimi still has 3 years to go at least, performing at his peak at the moment. In fact, I would say Kimi is the best driver at the moment and last year.

It's all the usual RBR's way of whipping up the media and their brand.

This again? Vettel had a customer Red bull at his disposal with a more powerful engine than the RBR.

Comparing Vettel's STR to today's STR is a joke. Vettel had the best rain chassis that year - one built by Newey and the most powerful engine at Monza.

Oh look, still antis around that want to diminish one of the greatest wins of all time (including the opinion of most fans of F1, commentators, journalists, ex-drivers, etc). Everyone that looked at the time sheets in that race knows the STR was 3rd/4th fastest car in the race. They just executed the strategy perfectly with a perfect driver in the car to enable the perfect strategy. And in the rain, you find out who the real men are. Vettel qualified almost 1 second ahead of his teammate around the same time in Q3.

When Hamilton or Alonso win in the rain with the fastest car, people praise the driver. When Vettel wins in the rain with a slower car, somehow the car and the designer did it. The sour grapes have gone way too sour on this one.

Edited by Blackmore, 26 July 2013 - 01:46.

[v@sh]

Oh look, still antis around that want to diminish one of the greatest wins of all time (including the opinion of most fans of F1, commentators, journalists, ex-drivers, etc). Everyone that looked at the time sheets in that race knows the STR was 3rd/4th fastest car in the race. They just executed the strategy perfectly with a perfect driver in the car to enable the perfect strategy. And in the rain, you find out who the real men are. Vettel qualified almost 1 second ahead of his teammate around the same time in Q3.

When Hamilton or Alonso win in the rain with the fastest car, people praise the driver. When Vettel wins in the rain with a slower car, somehow the car and the designer did it. The sour grapes have gone way too sour on this one.

Where did I say that Vettel did not deserve it? Or that it wasn't a brilliant drive? My point was that comparing cars between now and then. Nothing to do with Vettel - cos he does what Vettel does best, drive out in front and with aplomb - but comparing the competitiveness of the car against the competition now and then and the handling traits of the car in context. People expecting the TRs drivers to do what Vettel did back then are folly. You jump to conclusions straight off that I'm having a dig at Vettel. That in itself is a rubbish assumption. Give me a fair comparison when this year's TR is the 3rd fastest car in the race instead of going back to the Vettel's race win when things were executed just right. The RB chassis was brilliant in the wet that year, even at the start when Brawn had the upper hand in the dry it was quicker. Like you said, perfect strategy, perfect drive, perfect CAR for Monza and its conditions.

[lbennie]

I'm a massive seb fan, but that STR was easily one of the quickest cars in the wet, they showed it quite a few times that year.

still an amazing win though & as you say, still more than half a second quicker than his team mate in qualifying and the best part of a second quicker per lap during the race.

Edited by lbennie, 26 July 2013 - 02:20.

[NotSoSilentBob]

The fact is that Vettel drove off into the distance that day because he didn't have to deal with any spray, he didn't have to deal with a proper race start (it was a rolling start ffs!) and he had Heikki behind him driving like a nanna. The track also dried right at the optimum time for Vettel's stop, hell he even got to wait a few laps and see the times other drivers were managing once they switched to dries.

Was it a good win? Yes, for his age and the temperament he showed not to throw it off the road, absolutely. Was it TOTALLY AMAZING?!!??!! No, not really. Any competent F1 driver in similar circumstances - Newey chassis, Ferrari's grade A-spec engine (given to Toro Rosso that very weekend), great strategy to get Pole - would have done the same thing.

[Brother Fox]

The stars aligned for Vettel that weekend, and he took the opportunity presented to him. Its not a criticism, or trying to reduce what he did which was great.
To expect it t happen again with the current STR before you acknowledge the drivers (DR or JEV) is just simply stupid.

[bourbon]

The fact is that Vettel drove off into the distance that day because he didn't have to deal with any spray, he didn't have to deal with a proper race start (it was a rolling start ffs!) and he had Heikki behind him driving like a nanna. The track also dried right at the optimum time for Vettel's stop, hell he even got to wait a few laps and see the times other drivers were managing once they switched to dries.

Was it a good win? Yes, for his age and the temperament he showed not to throw it off the road, absolutely. Was it TOTALLY AMAZING?!!??!! No, not really. Any competent F1 driver in similar circumstances - Newey chassis, Ferrari's grade A-spec engine (given to Toro Rosso that very weekend), great strategy to get Pole - would have done the same thing.

But the point is, Vettel was a young gun and that is a distinguishing factor.

I saw a headline that said Jean-Eric wasn't ready for the seat according to Horner - haven't had a chance to read the story - anyone read that today?

[NotSoSilentBob]

But to compare the 'young gun' Vettel's equipment and circumstances that day, versus the 'young gun' Ricciardo's equipment today - STR chassis, homologated engine, usually crap strategy - and suggest that because DR hasn't done something standout like Vettel did means he's apparently inferior...... LONG bow being drawn there.

[NotSoSilentBob]

I saw a headline that said Jean-Eric wasn't ready for the seat according to Horner - haven't had a chance to read the story - anyone read that today?

Yep, basically said because Dan's 6 months ahead in development terms, that's one of the determining factors in Dan being in Pole for the drive.

[bourbon]

But to compare the 'young gun' Vettel's equipment and circumstances that day, versus the 'young gun' Ricciardo's equipment today - STR chassis, homologated engine, usually crap strategy - and suggest that because DR hasn't done something standout like Vettel did means he's apparently inferior...... LONG bow being drawn there.

Ricciardo isn't a young gun. His equipment may never have approached the STRF Monza 2008 special (aka, best car in the history of F1 - ever ), but that is beside the point. If Ricciardo was a young gun, this debate would not be taking place.

Yep, basically said because Dan's 6 months ahead in development terms, that's one of the determining factors in Dan being in Pole for the drive.

Ah, thanks. That makes sense.

Edited by bourbon, 26 July 2013 - 03:36.

[NotSoSilentBob]

How do you determine that he's not a young gun? He's not a teenager?

[bourbon]

How do you determine that he's not a young gun? He's not a teenager?

Stand out youngster in a sport. Like a prodigy.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Wow, I would think Dan's junior CV is pretty hard to match, actually.

[LukeM]

So bourbon is going to carry on his Webber hate onto Ricciardo. Funny stuff

[Brother Fox]

Yep, basically said because Dan's 6 months ahead in development terms, that's one of the determining factors in Dan being in Pole for the drive.

Looks like the Commonwealth Maffia have got to Bob

[Nobody]

So can we take Vergne off the list now, Seb's bitch says he's "not ready"

Edited by Nobody, 26 July 2013 - 04:19.

[lbennie]

Stand out youngster in a sport. Like a prodigy.

Who, other than Vettel, have you regarded as a prodigy in the past - that hasn't started their F1 career in a competitive car?

Edited by lbennie, 26 July 2013 - 04:26.

[Sardukar]

Wow, I would think Dan's junior CV is pretty hard to match, actually.

yep, his results in junior formula are actually very good. Taken from wiki for series he actually did more than a handful of races in-

2006 Formula BMW Asia 3rd
2007 Formula Renault 2.0 Italy 6th
2008 Formula Renault 2.0 WEC 1st
2008 Eurocup Formula Renault 2.0 2nd
2009 British F3 1st
2010 Formula Renault 3.5 2nd

Vettels pre-f1 career is almost identical in results (2nd, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 5th).

[plumtree]

Since this is related to Raikkonen's future,

@SkyF1Mark ‏(Mark Hughes) Responding to rumours, a Ferrari spokesman yesterday said 'it would be close to impossible' to have Kimi Raikkonen back there next year.

[swerved]

Looks like the Commonwealth Maffia have got to Bob

Just a natural reaction to Antipodean Apologists

[mclarenplayer]

Since this is related to Raikkonen's future,

@SkyF1Mark ‏(Mark Hughes) Responding to rumours, a Ferrari spokesman yesterday said 'it would be close to impossible' to have Kimi Raikkonen back there next year.

Who said Kimi could back to Ferrari?

[Jimisgod]

Ricciardo isn't a young gun. His equipment may never have approached the STRF Monza 2008 special (aka, best car in the history of F1 - ever ), but that is beside the point. If Ricciardo was a young gun, this debate would not be taking place.

He is enough of a gun that there is very serious debate as to whether to take him over Kimi, a champion driver.

To deny Kimi is anything but one of the 4 best drivers in the sport today is stupid, and Dan is legitimately challenging him for a seat. Vergne is not. Other drivers are not.

[bourbon]

Wow, I would think Dan's junior CV is pretty hard to match, actually.

Prodigy in F1, not in motorsports. A young gun is a coined phrase - I didn't make it up. You are a young gun in your category if you are both young and excel early on in a sport - in the specific category in which you are competing.

Of course Dan is talented - he hasn't any money and you have to have one or the other to make it into F1. That is why he is even considered. It isn't the end of the world - but because he is not a young gun, the process of advancing to the RBR seat isn't as straight forward.

So bourbon is going to carry on his Webber hate onto Ricciardo. Funny stuff

I don't hate Mark. I want Kimi to get the seat because I have been his fan since 2001 and I am ready to see him in a fast car again (assuming RBR is on it in 2014). It has nothing to do with how I feel about Dan - and in any case, I have no problem with Dan.

Edited by bourbon, 26 July 2013 - 05:21.

[plumtree]

Who said Kimi could back to Ferrari?

It was never a strong one, as it's quite an unlikely move for both parties. Still there was a brief discussion on this board too as a wild guess, since Domenicali made comments on Raikkonen in an interview. I have no idea where Mark Hughes heard the rumors though.

[GhostR]

Oh look, still antis around that want to diminish one of the greatest wins of all time (including the opinion of most fans of F1, commentators, journalists, ex-drivers, etc). Everyone that looked at the time sheets in that race knows the STR was 3rd/4th fastest car in the race. They just executed the strategy perfectly with a perfect driver in the car to enable the perfect strategy. And in the rain, you find out who the real men are. Vettel qualified almost 1 second ahead of his teammate around the same time in Q3.

When Hamilton or Alonso win in the rain with the fastest car, people praise the driver. When Vettel wins in the rain with a slower car, somehow the car and the designer did it. The sour grapes have gone way too sour on this one.

No one's trying to diminish Vettel. All they're doing is reacting to the people who are saying that Dan's clearly no good because he hasn't done what Vettel did, and in the process ignoring the very different circumstances.

Let's face it: Vettel was driving an RBR chassis (a couple of races behind developmentally, but still it was a current Red Bull) using the better engine (not just that day, but for most of the season). It had STR sticker's on it, but it was a competitive car from a front running team. Vettel's pole was awesome (a sign of things to come), and his race went perfectly (another sign of things to come) from all angles. Brilliant day for the driver and the team. But let's not sweep under the rug that he had a car that could actually do that.

Dan, on the other hand, has a proper STR chassis. It was a dog last year, and a bit of a dog earlier this year until the development started to come on strong. But they're still behind RBR, Ferrari, Mercedes, Force India, and Lotus on pace, and also McLaren on the strategy side. Despite that, Ricciardo's had a few stand-out qually drives which could well have been pole positions had he been driving the same configuration Seb drove (ie, an RBR chassis w/ Ferrari engine).

Simple fact here is that the problem is that people are expecting Dan (and Vergne) to do what Seb did, when at the end of the day the package simply *can't* do that. Seb had a package that could, and the fact he made it happen was awesome. Dan (and Vergne a couple times, particularly in the mixed conditions) have both had some amazing runs as well, but some people just can't see it for having blinkers on.

[Melchiot]

No one's trying to diminish Vettel. All they're doing is reacting to the people who are saying that Dan's clearly no good because he hasn't done what Vettel did, and in the process ignoring the very different circumstances.

Let's face it: Vettel was driving an RBR chassis (a couple of races behind developmentally, but still it was a current Red Bull) using the better engine (not just that day, but for most of the season). It had STR sticker's on it, but it was a competitive car from a front running team. Vettel's pole was awesome (a sign of things to come), and his race went perfectly (another sign of things to come) from all angles. Brilliant day for the driver and the team. But let's not sweep under the rug that he had a car that could actually do that.

Dan, on the other hand, has a proper STR chassis. It was a dog last year, and a bit of a dog earlier this year until the development started to come on strong. But they're still behind RBR, Ferrari, Mercedes, Force India, and Lotus on pace, and also McLaren on the strategy side. Despite that, Ricciardo's had a few stand-out qually drives which could well have been pole positions had he been driving the same configuration Seb drove (ie, an RBR chassis w/ Ferrari engine).

No it wasn't.

A front running team wont have its drivers finish 11th and 16th in the WDC and 7th place out of 11 in the constructors championship
The 2008 Red Bull was at it's best a mid pack team but in no way a front running team...so even if Vettel raced a red bull in STR colours means jack Sh*t since the "factory" redbull wasnt anything impressive to begin with.

U talk as if poor Riciardo is driving a caterham meanwhile Vettel had an RB7 in STR colours

[Jimisgod]

No it wasn't.

A front running team wont have its drivers finish 11th and 16th in the WDC and 7th place out of 11 in the constructors championship
The 2008 Red Bull was at it's best a mid pack team but in no way a front running team...so even if Vettel raced a red bull in STR colours means jack Sh*t since the "factory" redbull wasnt anything impressive to begin with.

U talk as if poor Riciardo is driving a caterham meanwhile Vettel had an RB7 in STR colours

The 2007 RBR car was very good in the wet. Webber, a lesser driver than Vettel, scored a podium at the wet N-ring. He almost won the wet Japanese GP. The 2008 STR was at its best in the wet and damp. Italy, China, Brazil. All wet to a degree.

[aray]

it seems some people posting here are using multiple aliases.....

Edited by aray, 26 July 2013 - 07:12.

[denthierry]

Guys,
While is see where you are coming from this is slipping into an off-topic discussion now. Please abort...
Thx.

[intelligentsia]

He is enough of a gun that there is very serious debate as to whether to take him over Kimi, a champion driver.

To deny Kimi is anything but one of the 4 best drivers in the sport today is stupid, and Dan is legitimately challenging him for a seat. Vergne is not. Other drivers are not.

Ricciardo might prove to be great driver in the future. But right now the choice between Kimi and Riccardo comes down to Red Bull's racing philosophy. Do they want a second driver or do they want two equal competing drivers. Having a number two driver has given them a lot of championships it is a very successful strategy, and difficult to turn down.

[Brother Fox]

Guys,
While is see where you are coming from this is slipping into an off-topic discussion now. Please abort...
Thx.

How is it?
Its justifying why DR is in the running for the seat despite not showing the results that Vettel did to get his ride.

[Jovanotti]

Regarding the "some may think it's a stupid decision"-comment and considering the importance of the new power train next year, I could well imagine McLaren is a viable option for Kimi atm.

Edited by Jovanotti, 26 July 2013 - 07:26.

[bourbon]

...Simple fact here is that the problem is that people are expecting Dan (and Vergne) to do what Seb did...

I don't think that is true at all. I haven't read one post that suggested Dan should do what Seb did in the STRF in order to confirm his readiness for the RBR seat. Obviously RBR isn't looking to him to do it or he wouldn't now be considered for the seat.

Everyone is going to have their opinion between Dan and Kimi - and just because one picks Kimi does not mean that they find fault with Dan. Kimi has a hell of a lot of fans - they want the best for him.