3226 replies to this topic

[denthierry]

The part about the money is beginning to be very worrying, not just for Räikkönen, but in general for the championship: the more teams with resources to compete well, the more entertaining the championship.
I've seen in twitter the rumour about Räikkönen threatening not to race, but I don't know where it started. I pretty much doubt one of these guys would do that ever.

Back to the thread original topic: as somebody said yesterday, what Austrian press says is usually more reliable than British (for Red Bull seats stories). I would give that ORF piece of news more value than most of the other things we've been bringing here, but let's see what really happens, they might be wrong for once.

Unless I read the wrong Austrian article, I do not recall reading anything new. Sorry if this was clarified before but can you please elaborate? Thx.

[turssi]

If I was in Mr. Mateschnitz's shoes I would know I got the money and was winning the championships. Lotus would be easy to deal, they already lost their lead engineer and now they are facing the situation where they can't pay their lead pilot either. I would take their old champion and insert Ricciardo to his seat, solving my problems and leaving Lotus safe and owing me one.

After this move I would have Kimi on one year deals in Webbers seat and Ricciardo, Vergne and Formiga all hungry for RBR seats should they open up in the future.

[2ms]

Nice attempt to deflect the subject and take away the attention from the utterly insane claim of yours that "the Lotus on his hands looks regularly slower than the Toro Rossos and the Force Indias".

That's not what I said at all.

[OSX]

Here's a photo of that little chat Horner and Kimi's manager Steve Robertson were seen having earlier today.



https://twitter.com/...095433289875456

[DILLIGAF]

Haven't seen ANYTHING from Dan that would merit the seat to be honest.

Do you not watch qualifying?

[SvenF1]

He also says couple of interesting points....there is plenty of choices for Kimi still not just Lotus or Red Bull..

Of course he has more choices. He can quit entirely, do some rallying or maybe some motocross? It's starting to sound like 2009 again. He had several options back then too.

To be honest if find it hard to see why Red Bull would even want him. He's very quick, but Red Bull have won both championships for the last 3 years with Vettel. Why on earth would they change that and bring another WDC to challenge him?

Kimi would be an ideal second driver, fast and reliable with no politics or whining. But he would never sign up for anything like that.

[Shiroo]

If you look at Raikkonen's performance Lotus looks good, though not good enough to win championships because they throw away too many points. However, if you look at their other driver, Lotus looks like they are fairly regularly slower than Toro Rosso and Force India. If you look at Lotus's overall trends, they seem to have more and more problems with team management and inability to get sponsors. Their race strategy is still utterly hopeless. Their pitstops are still often a second slower than the championship contenders etc. None of these things ever improve. If you look at Toro Rosso and Force India, they actually get better and better every year.

Enstone has long been one of my favorite teams. Boullier and Grosjean with their endless BS have been a disappointment and in fact I think they have driven potential sponsors away along with talent like Allison. But I still love the team overall. I just don't have any illusions by which I expect different results from the same actions. Raikkonen will get 3rd in the WDC many times at Lotus. That's very impressive.

No you don't lol. You are constantly bashing them and only rooting for em cause Raikkonen is driving there.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Horner: Steve, I've done all I can to make the case for Kimi
Robertson: Well it's not enough Christian! Can't you arrange a little KERS failure for Ricciardo? Make him look a bit average you know...

[Vesuvius]

Here's a photo of that little chat Horner and Kimi's manager Steve Robertson were seen having earlier today.



https://twitter.com/...095433289875456

Thanks, Steve talking to Horner why they choosed Lotus ?

[artista]

Unless I read the wrong Austrian article, I do not recall reading anything new. Sorry if this was clarified before but can you please elaborate? Thx.

yeah, the ORF article I mean is this: http://sport.orf.at/...189299/2189300/

Nope, there is nothing new in that article, they point towards Ricciardo like many people lately. The difference is where the story is coming from.

I don't know how to explain this without making somebody feel offended The thing is that, whatever the English speaking press says about who's going to seat in a Red Bull related vehicle, well, meh! the decision is made in Salzburg and, looking back to what has happened the last few years (I love silly season, that's why I remember ), it has happened what Austrian press said, regardless of what Britons -including respected journalists- said. Sometimes the Britons got it right, sometimes wrong (probability things)

[2ms]

No you don't lol. You are constantly bashing them and only rooting for em cause Raikkonen is driving there.

I think in many regards they are the most impressive team in F1. I just think they're run by a guy who doesn't know what he is doing because I hold him responsible for the fact that they haven't improved in any of the glaring problem areas that have afflicted them since he took over. Otherwise, I see little difference between them and Red Bull.

[intelligentsia]

Tends to be a sign of desperation to be visibly seen in the paddock doing that, as the commentators implied. Putting pressure on Lotus?

And yesterday he was seen in the paddock talking to Boullier.

A seat in the fastest team is always desirable. But we see yet another issue for Webber this weekend. I am not keeping score, but I almost cant remember a weekend were there wasn't something that went wrong for Webber. The second Red Bull seat must have more reliability problems then the whole STR team.

If I were a candidate I would be slightly concerned.

[noikeee]

Nice attempt to deflect the subject and take away the attention from the utterly insane claim of yours that "the Lotus on his hands looks regularly slower than the Toro Rossos and the Force Indias".

That's not what I said at all.

Yeah?

However, if you look at their other driver, Lotus looks like they are fairly regularly slower than Toro Rosso and Force India.

[SpaMaster]

To those saying a Red Bull seat should be an automatic selection for any driver: Like intelligentsia says, don't think so. I have my concerns how fairly they treat their second driver. As much as I don't like many things Webber does, there are reasons to be suspicious of how many times the team has shafted Webber. I have long held a view that no.1-rule-operating team often use their second driver/car as their guinea pig - so as to push the limits of the car, take risk with new set-ups/combinations stuff. Renault-Fisichella case was a strong example. Kimi will not take this sxxt. He will make a big scene behind the scenes. So yes, there are fair treatment concerns about the second Red Bull seat. Sure, a driver of Raikkonen-profile would make the situation improved, but talent/presence can only get you so far. Raikkonen is not the most 'team-spirit-axx-licking' driver either, so he can be undermined.

Next, the probability of winning championships - the law of average - when we are looking at such a big change in regulations. If Kimi wants to win a championship in the next two years, he would be banking on a car that was able to deliver a championship six year in a row, with a big regulation change in-between. This has never happened in F1.

[Vesuvius]

If the skysports claim that Kimi is thinking about skipping a race or races this year is true, then I can't see how would he continue at Lotus. He could leave the sports all together althought that seems unlikely as he is talking about next year, and Kimi says he has other options than Lotus and Red Bull in F1. Anyway I still believe Kimi-RBR for some reason, especially now that Kimi skipping races are on air.

Sky Sports F1 ✔ @SkySportsF1

Raikkonen: "There is a certain point where a decision will be made", when asked about rumours that he wouldn't race due to not being paid.

Edited by Vesuvius, 27 July 2013 - 14:12.

[OSX]

Here's a photo of that little chat Horner and Kimi's manager Steve Robertson were seen having earlier today.



https://twitter.com/...095433289875456

Thanks, Steve talking to Horner why they choosed Lotus ?

Horner does seem a bit baffled...

[Vesuvius]

I think there is something very fishy going on...if the claims that Kimi would skip races this year are true, I don't think he would do that only because of money....there must be something else as well. Also taking him away YDT and Moscow show run suddenly, has got something to do with this, maybe it's because of money but than it must be a lot of money that we are talking about.

Edited by Vesuvius, 27 July 2013 - 14:23.

[noikeee]

Skipping races in the middle of a championship fight? Wtf? That's clearly a hollow threat, he's not that dumb, it'd only do him harm even if they owe him a ton of money. Reminds me of when Senna did "race by race" deals with McLaren, basically threatening to walk away after every single race. Bullshit to put pressure on the team negotiations-wise, of course.

[Vesuvius]

Skipping races in the middle of a championship fight? Wtf? That's clearly a hollow threat, he's not that dumb, it'd only do him harm even if they owe him a ton of money. Reminds me of when Senna did "race by race" deals with McLaren, basically threatening to walk away after every single race. Bullshit to put pressure on the team negotiations-wise, of course.

The fact is this is not the first time this rumour is going on...and now Sky Sports even had Kimi's comment to the matter and that makes it look even quite likely....but I don't believe Kimi would ever skip a race because of money, there is something else behind this if he will do it.

Edited by Vesuvius, 27 July 2013 - 14:33.

[OSX]

Raikkonen Still Looking at Red Bull?
27 July 2013



Amid suggestions Red Bull is preparing a 2014 contract for Daniel Ricciardo, Kimi Raikkonen's manager insists the Finn is still in the running.

"The facts, or what I can tell you, is that an agreement has not been reached at this time."

"Negotiations and discussions are still underway," manager Steve Robertson, who had a meeting with Lotus' Eric Boullier in Hungary on Friday, told the Finnish broadcaster MTV3.

"I can't tell you much about the details, but things are still open. I hope the situation will be resolved in the not very distant future."

Asked, however, if the pendulum has swung away from Red Bull and towards a new Lotus deal for the 2007 world champion, Robertson insisted: "You put me in a difficult situation, because I can't say any more than I have already."

http://paddocktalk.c...ory-229481.html

[DILLIGAF]

Have I talked Dan down? Why don't you quote me doing so.

You will find you can't. For me the bottom line is that RBR should take Kimi because he is better. Personally, I want Kimi in the top car.

With regards to getting the RBR seat you certainly have talked Dan down bourbon. For starters you've said the following about Ricciardo:

1. He's too inexperienced to get the seat even though he'll have 50 GPs under his belt by seasons end. (Vettel had only 26 races before being promoted)

2. "RBR doesn't need another wing man, who will clearly come in as a #2 driver by default"

3. "What will happen is that he will be in over his head and out of the sport in the blink of an eye. It isn't 2009 anymore; the expectations of a RBR driver are extremely high. Dan is still pretty wet behind the ears and I think it would be way too much pressure on him."

4'"RBR won't let him waste the seat - not even 1/2 a season. He'll be out and replaced if he can't produce WCC level points and Sebastian is doing so alone."

5."With the STRF guys, I fear it would be fairly dull racing - they still need more time."

6. "You have to know how to win races, you have to have the experience or the innate ability to get the most of out your car (whatever it takes) and earn the respect of your front running peers. Presently, on several fronts, Dan is far behind Mark, let alone Kimi at this stage. (Dan has won & led races, admittedly in lower classes, and he has got the most out of what is a midfield at best car. He's good wheel to wheel, is quick & races cleanly & as I said he'll soon have 50 GPs to his name. What more do you have to do to be given a chance in a better car?)

7. "I clearly stated that Dan is less experienced than Kimi - in every way - when it comes to racing. Kimi has gone through the experience of wheel to wheel at the front; he's been under maximum pressure in WDC/WCC win/lose situations; he has the respect of his peers which matters when they race against you. Dan is just the opposite of all of that, being young and yet to experience many of these things."

8. "I don't feel like dealing with Dan in RBR - actually I won't, so I'd rather see someone else get the seat - but from a performance standpoint, he'll probably do as well as any other "non-topgun rookie in a top car" in the seat, so whatever."

9. "Ricciardo isn't a young gun. His equipment may never have approached the STRF Monza 2008 special (aka, best car in the history of F1 - ever tongue.gif ), but that is beside the point. If Ricciardo was a young gun, this debate would not be taking place." (What's a young gun in F1 exactly bourbon? How can you show you're a young gun when you don't have the car to do it?)

That enough for you bourbon?

I know you don't hate Dan but you do talk him down on the topic at hand. Like you I love Kimi & would love to see him get the gig but i'm not letting my fandom affect my objectivity. If Dan the the drive he'll surprise many doubters here just like the Seb doubters did.

Edit: my comments are in blue.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 27 July 2013 - 15:02.

[Vesuvius]

Raikkonen Still Looking at Red Bull?
27 July 2013



Amid suggestions Red Bull is preparing a 2014 contract for Daniel Ricciardo, Kimi Raikkonen's manager insists the Finn is still in the running.

"The facts, or what I can tell you, is that an agreement has not been reached at this time."

"Negotiations and discussions are still underway," manager Steve Robertson, who had a meeting with Lotus' Eric Boullier in Hungary on Friday, told the Finnish broadcaster MTV3.

"I can't tell you much about the details, but things are still open. I hope the situation will be resolved in the not very distant future."

Asked, however, if the pendulum has swung away from Red Bull and towards a new Lotus deal for the 2007 world champion, Robertson insisted: "You put me in a difficult situation, because I can't say any more than I have already."

http://paddocktalk.c...ory-229481.html

This is the same mtv3 interview, nothing new.

[swerved]

The part about the money is beginning to be very worrying, not just for Räikkönen, but in general for the championship: the more teams with resources to compete well, the more entertaining the championship.
I've seen in twitter the rumour about Räikkönen threatening not to race, but I don't know where it started. I pretty much doubt one of these guys would do that ever.

Back to the thread original topic: as somebody said yesterday, what Austrian press says is usually more reliable than British (for Red Bull seats stories). I would give that ORF piece of news more value than most of the other things we've been bringing here, but let's see what really happens, they might be wrong for once.

The problems with finances are my greatest concern as well, I can't help but feel that the Infinity deal may not be as certain as some would have us believe, and to be honest, even if the deal is signed i still have a feeling things wont be as straightforward and simple as they might be.

[swerved]

I'm not following you: interviews with who? Denied by who?
Err... Why not post them right here?

I should have made it clearer, they're video interviews with Kimi, one from skys "gear up for Hungary" programme and the other from Skys qualy show today, and as i said in the post the money issues weren't denied by Kimi.

[swerved]

If the skysports claim that Kimi is thinking about skipping a race or races this year is true, then I can't see how would he continue at Lotus. He could leave the sports all together althought that seems unlikely as he is talking about next year, and Kimi says he has other options than Lotus and Red Bull in F1. Anyway I still believe Kimi-RBR for some reason, especially now that Kimi skipping races are on air.

Sky Sports F1 ✔ @SkySportsF1

Raikkonen: "There is a certain point where a decision will be made", when asked about rumours that he wouldn't race due to not being paid.

I'm not 100% sure without viewing it again but that tweet may be slightly misleading, iirc he was asked was there a time, not would there be a time, ei: it was dealing with past situations, not future ones.

[Sith]

I can give the latest update... The Robertsons are asking for more $$$ than what Red Bull are offering... Having said that, he is still a 65% chance to drive for them next year...

[denthierry]

I can give the latest update... The Robertsons are asking for more $$$ than what Red Bull are offering... Having said that, he is still a 65% chance to drive for them next year...

Well, you sure don't suffer from a lack of imagination.

[Shiroo]

I can give the latest update... The Robertsons are asking for more $$$ than what Red Bull are offering... Having said that, he is still a 65% chance to drive for them next year...

I highly doubt that's the case. RBR would give Raikkonen as much as he wish to.

I believe more in the case of Ricciardo being just the better choice. He is good driver no doubts about that, he deserves his chance

[NotSoSilentBob]

IF that was true:

Does Kimi want mucho cash, or a winning car? Generally you'd take a lot less to get the latter.

[2ms]

The Robertsons are known to be the most aggressive managers in the business. Sometimes I wonder if Kimi wouldn't be better off with people that make less money off of him.

[SpaMaster]

I highly doubt that's the case. RBR would give Raikkonen as much as he wish to.

I believe more in the case of Ricciardo being just the better choice. He is good driver no doubts about that, he deserves his chance

Because you want Raikkonen at Lotus? What do you mean Ricciardo deserves his chance? A seat at Red Bull is a given for the STR drivers?

[2ms]

IF that was true:

Does Kimi want mucho cash, or a winning car? Generally you'd take a lot less to get the latter.

Presumably the Robertsons want mucho cash. I think Kimi is in F1 to win championships. Unfortunately for the Robertsons, the last few races of major strategy errors, Grosjean ignoring team orders with impunity, etc have had a negative impact on their bargaining position.

Edited by 2ms, 27 July 2013 - 15:47.

[Shiroo]

Because you want Raikkonen at Lotus? What do you mean Ricciardo deserves his chance? A seat at Red Bull is a given for the STR drivers?

What's the point of RBR junior program then at all ? and he shows he has some skill, he is way younger etc. Has a bit longer future in F1 than Raikkonen (Raikkonen at most will fight to 2016 I believe and that will be like most).
And I doubt that he is capable of beating Vettel

[2ms]

What's the point of RBR junior program then at all ? and he shows he has some skill, he is way younger etc. Has a bit longer future in F1 than Raikkonen (Raikkonen at most will fight to 2016 I believe and that will be like most).
And I doubt that he is capable of beating Vettel

To find drivers like Vettel and Raikkonen. They're very rare. So far they couldn't be a bigger success. The last 3 WDCs in a row and counting. The purpose isn't just to stuff anyone they can into an RBR seat at the exclusion of superior drivers.

[sv401]

I can give the latest update... The Robertsons are asking for more $$$ than what Red Bull are offering...

That picture of Horner and Robertson above looks very fitting. I would not be too surprised if they actually wanted more than Vettel's salary, which may be too much even for Red Bull to accept easily.

[SpaMaster]

What's the point of RBR junior program then at all ? and he shows he has some skill, he is way younger etc. Has a bit longer future in F1 than Raikkonen (Raikkonen at most will fight to 2016 I believe and that will be like most).
And I doubt that he is capable of beating Vettel

Oh come on, the junior program is there to help the F1 team, the F1 team does not exist to help the junior program. Tail should not wag the dog. The only reason Ricciardo is even in the discussion is because he is from the junior program. That is not what I call deserving of a seat at the best team. They can still get Ricciardo after two years if you think he is so young. In my view, in terms of pure merit, Raikkonen and Hulkenberg are way ahead of anyone else.

[OSX]

Does Kimi want mucho cash, or a winning car? Generally you'd take a lot less to get the latter.

Well, it is in the Robertsons' interests to prolong the negotiations with Red Bull as long as it's uncertain that Lotus is able to sort out the team's financial issues. That way if Kimi's preferred choice Lotus fails he still has an available seat to fill at Red Bull.

[g1n]

I doubt Kimi is asking for more money, Red Bull pay lower salaries than top teams but they pay a lot in performance bonuses. Considering how consistent Kimi is he would make a killing at Red Bull.

[Sin]

so this is the latest tweet by Lotus:

Lotus F1 Team ‏@Lotus_F1Team 4m

As Obi-Wan Kenobi once said: “Who’s the more foolish; the fool, or the fool who follows him?”

you guys correct me if I'm wrong but are they calling Kimi indirectly a fool ?!

Edited by Sin, 27 July 2013 - 16:30.

[SpaMaster]

^ Ha ha, yes they are indirectly referring to Kimi as fool. But the point of the cartoon is, "Kimi, don't fall for it". Lotus' clear and consistent counter to Red Bull's opening for Kimi has always been, "Kimi, you would be undermined at Red Bull, don't believe in fair treatment there". Does Red Bull have an answer for that?

[OSX]

Lotus F1 Team:

"As Obi-Wan Kenobi once said: Who’s the more foolish; the fool, or the fool who follows him?"



https://twitter.com/...159567058538496

Brilliant!

[Grundle]

At YDT, Ricciardo was 0.2 faster than Vettel according to Red Bull engineers. Source BBC qualifying.

[denthierry]

^ Ha ha, yes they are indirectly referring to Kimi as fool. But the point of the cartoon is, "Kimi, don't fall for it". Lotus' clear and consistent counter to Red Bull's opening for Kimi has always been, "Kimi, you would be undermined at Red Bull, don't believe in fair treatment there". Does Red Bull have an answer for that?

Well, i would be Red Bull's PR man or responsible for their tweets i'd know quite a LOT of stuff to throw back at Lotus actually. Something about their finances would be just as "funny", no?
Personally, even if it's meant to be funny, i find this a little off to be honest. Maybe misplaced is the word, dunno. But probably most of you will call me a stuck-up old far..

Edited by denthierry, 27 July 2013 - 17:18.

[SpaMaster]

^ Sure, Red Bull can do that. But I don't think there is a whole lot of jovial intelligence in rich calling the poor "Poor!". It would be a fact, in my opinion. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying it is offensive. But everybody knows Lotus is comparatively a smaller team, and they are spending beyond their capabilities to remain in the fight. I don't think the cartoon would be such a hit, they could come up with a better reply.;)

Edited by SpaMaster, 27 July 2013 - 17:29.

[goingthedistance]

At YDT, Ricciardo was 0.2 faster than Vettel according to Red Bull engineers. Source BBC qualifying.

It's consistent with the Pirelli report that Dan set his quick time on Hards, Seb on Mediums.

He's the goods then. I don't even know how that's possible, given it was an unfamiliar car for him (though he does use the Red Bull sim, which would help). Maybe Seb wasn't pushing too hard and Dan was. Still...

If true it does reflect well on Vergne too, who sometimes comes close to Dan in pace.

[Lopek]

To find drivers like Vettel and Raikkonen. They're very rare. So far they couldn't be a bigger success. The last 3 WDCs in a row and counting. The purpose isn't just to stuff anyone they can into an RBR seat at the exclusion of superior drivers.

This is to conveniently ignore that Vettel made his debut with BMW who would have signed him had he not had the Red Bull contract. Vettel would have made it without STR. I'd say as a place to develop young drivers STR has been a failure overall. As place to destroy young potential & leave them on the scrap heap with their reputation in tatters, it's a massive success.

If they don't take Ricciardo now they may as close the team down. I'm sure that Helmut Marko is push very hard for Ricciardo for that reason.

[JHSingo]

Some of these posts are hilarious.

Do have to laugh at comments like "he hasn't produced a Monza 2008 type performance yet." What do you expect the guy to do? Back then, Vettel had an Adrian Newey chassis AND a better engine than even Red Bull themselves had. Ricciardo has neither of those luxuries. I think the fact that he has qualified in the top ten for four consecutive races in a far inferior car shows you that he is quick.

And the inexperienced argument is funny too. Applying that logic, Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen and possibly even Alonso wouldn't have gotten their big break.

[swerved]

so this is the latest tweet by Lotus:



you guys correct me if I'm wrong but are they calling Kimi indirectly a fool ?!

I dont think you are wrong, i'm more than a little surprised at that tweet.

[Afterburner]

It's consistent with the Pirelli report that Dan set his quick time on Hards, Seb on Mediums.

He's the goods then. I don't even know how that's possible, given it was an unfamiliar car for him (though he does use the Red Bull sim, which would help). Maybe Seb wasn't pushing too hard and Dan was. Still...

If true it does reflect well on Vergne too, who sometimes comes close to Dan in pace.

I am a little bit cautious, because it is only testing and it would have been in Dan and RBR's best interest to do a glory run to unsettle Lotus/Kimi (e.g. 'we don't need you, look what we've got here'), but on the other hand I am starting to think that Ricciardo is the real deal. I would not be surprised at all to see him either match or beat Vettel next year if he gets the drive.

What an awesome talent pool F1's got at the moment.

Edited by Afterburner, 27 July 2013 - 17:52.

[marcoferrari]

At YDT, Ricciardo was 0.2 faster than Vettel according to Red Bull engineers. Source BBC qualifying.

Sad that there wasn t also a full race simulation as keeping pace over a long distance is his biggest problem...