49 replies to this topic

[Forma1]

The fact Pirelli opted to use the hardest compounds for Silverstone and interesingely for Hungary as well, is just a fact. However the two teams which were the overall best at the start of the season (Ferrari and Lotus) are struggling now on a track wich should have played into their hands and not only Mercedes and RB are millions miles ahead of them, but Force India and Toro Rosso (!!) overtook them as well. THe latter didn't bring any major updates since Barcelona, that was their only major development package this year. On the other hand, Pirelli changed their working methods by using new glued to produce the tyres. It is weird. A bit weird. On the other hand Red Bull were moaning day and night about the tyres, now they are at the front again, Vettel is on course to his fourth consecuitve title, they are happier then ever. What a sympathetic team!

[Shiroo]

Well they would bring Hard and Med to Silverstone anyway. But Hungary with Meds and Hards... well I would say it says all about "being conservative".

[Forma1]

Well they would bring Hard and Med to Silverstone anyway. But Hungary with Meds and Hards... well I would say it says all about "being conservative".

No, no, I am not suprised at the tyre allocation, cos hard was expected for Silverstone. I am suprised at new methods. I can't believe Ferrari and Lotus have fallen back and Toro Rosso are ahead of them without updates...

[rasul]

I'm sorry to spoil the party, but how would you explain Force India's great results, then? They've been one of the best at tyre preservation, as well, but they're doing well on these tyres. It means it's not the tyres. Putting the blame on tyres only is ridiculous.

[Dunder]

They would be accused of being too involved regardless of what they do/did. The top cars have different characteristics and very clearly are exerting different peak loads through the tyres.

The choice for Hungary is strange but we often see very hot weather and with the delaminations we have seen, I am not surprised Pirelli have gone conservative.

[Fangiola]

4 stops in barcelona and a possible 2 stops in GB, it does seem a bit fishy

[MikeTekRacing]

The fact Pirelli opted to use the hardest compounds for Silverstone and interesingely for Hungary as well, is just a fact. However the two teams which were the overall best at the start of the season (Ferrari and Lotus) are struggling now on a track wich should have played into their hands and not only Mercedes and RB are millions miles ahead of them, but Force India and Toro Rosso (!!) overtook them as well. THe latter didn't bring any major updates since Barcelona, that was their only major development package this year. On the other hand, Pirelli changed their working methods by using new glued to produce the tyres. It is weird. A bit weird. On the other hand Red Bull were moaning day and night about the tyres, now they are at the front again, Vettel is on course to his fourth consecuitve title, they are happier then ever. What a sympathetic team!

you can look at it the other way
the fact they used softer compounds at the beginning of the year unfairly hindered other teams

[Jovanotti]

I've said it before, Pirelli need to evaluate tyre performance after the first 3 races or so and announce the tyre allocations for the rest of the season then, and stick with it. Only that way they can prevent people from complaining about tyres distorting the competition.

Or as an alternative of course, free choices out of the whole tyre range for every team (which I would prefer).

[SpaMaster]

First of all, Pirelli haven't brought the new glue tyres yet.

Next, there is nothing wrong with tyre allocation for Silverstone. It is a fast high-energy circuit. So medium and hard are the right choice. Yesterday was a bit cooler and the race day would be warmer. Wait till the race gets over.

The interesting bit is the same mediums and hards for Hungary which is a low speed low-energy circuit. That is downright ridiculous. I would wait and see if this choice actually materializes for Hungary. Hungary is a long way away and Pirelli unusually announced the compounds so early. I think they just wanted to see some reaction. I suspect FIA would get into this. Pirelli may want to use mediums/hards at Hungary, Singapore, etc., but they would have to live with it for Spa and Suzuka as well.

So, so far so good, but they are itching to influence the championship in the future.

[Coops3]

4 stops in barcelona and a possible 2 stops in GB, it does seem a bit fishy

Cooler conditions though.

Edited by Coops3, 30 June 2013 - 09:48.

[Shiroo]

I've said it before, Pirelli need to evaluate tyre performance after the first 3 races or so and announce the tyre allocations for the rest of the season then, and stick with it. Only that way they can prevent people from complaining about tyres distorting the competition.

Or as an alternative of course, free choices out of the whole tyre range for every team (which I would prefer).

I would love to see the 2nd option. RBR and Merc would run with Meds and Hard while Ferrari with meds and softs probably. Then they could use the advantage in tyre management that they have while atm it is pretty unlikely. Also they would qualify better

[Grundle]

Barcelona was a joke, with drivers crawling around. Worst race of the year to watch driver skill or entertainment. Vettel waved Kimi
through, cars were visibly not pushing.
Even Massa struggled for grip from just a few laps trying to catch Kimi. It was a disaster.

[ZooL]

The harder the tyres the better aggressive racing we get, I thought that's what most F1 fans wanted anyway? At least we will see less delta driving nonsense and less of the cheese tyres.

In summary they learnt and admitted after Barcelona they have got the tyres wrong, 4 stops was too much.

The tyres are the same for everybody, even if they are still crap for racing hard.

[ardbeg]

Well, I think that they must be allowed to compensate for a slight misjudgement, specially considering the test options are so limited. The mistake they have done is to make the tires to fragile. It should have been possible to make tires that can take some abuse but still wears off and lose performance in a more linear way. A bigger operational temp range.

If they want to save money they should just make one tire and then track and driving style would decide if there will be zero or four stops. This forced two compound **** is just putting the focus outside the racing. Idiotic and expensive for everyone. If ther was only one compound, practice sessions could be used much more effeicently as well, which would be a good alternative to separate testing sessions.

[Shiroo]

The harder the tyres the better aggressive racing we get, I thought that's what most F1 fans wanted anyway? At least we will see less delta driving nonsense and less of the cheese tyres.

In summary they learnt and admitted after Barcelona they have got the tyres wrong, 4 stops was too much.

The tyres are the same for everybody, even if they are still crap for racing hard.

but they had data before the season and now Pirelli is penalizing the guys that did best work with the tyres, bringing the tyres that are not supposed to go on track like Hungary

[ardbeg]

but they had data before the season and now Pirelli is penalizing the guys that did best work with the tyres, bringing the tyres that are not supposed to go on track like Hungary

That data was old already when the season started.

EDIT: I am also a Lotus fan, but the reason they are falling back is not because of Pirelli, it more due to the departure of James Allison and small resources to develop their car in general. Was to be expected.
Force India is doing surprisingly well in the development race, and as I remember, they did it also last season. Apart from them, only McLaren, Ferrari, RBR and this year also Mercedes seem to be able to take steps forward during the season. The others goes, of course, in relation to them, backwards. Common trend for many years.

Edited by ardbeg, 30 June 2013 - 10:01.

[TIFOlonSO]

Worse than tyre allocations is the rumour that Pirelli changed the tyres anyway.
http://carlosmiquelb...l.html?spref=tw

[Tonka]

It's the FIA who are meddling with F1.

And if it wasn't them, it would be Bernie.


It's all about the show, you know.

[ZooL]

but they had data before the season and now Pirelli is penalizing the guys that did best work with the tyres, bringing the tyres that are not supposed to go on track like Hungary

I'm sure Pirelli have said the pre-season data was all unreliable because temperatures were too cold and they have now learned they have gone too aggressive with the compounds.

The tyres going to hunary are actually very similar to the same tyres that went their last year because as Pirelli said they re-branded last years tyres to be a step softer. So this years mediums is actually last years softs...

Pirelli got too involved earlier in the season, it was all tyres tyres tyres and no proper racing. At least now drivers are racing.

Do we all want to go back and get excited about Kimi's engineer telling him he never broke traction once all race?

Do we want to see drivers coasting around?

I think what's happening in this thread is that Ferrari and Lotus fans are complaining that they can no longer hide behind Pirelli cheese tyres. For these 2, it's no longer about the sport now, but just selfish about their respective team performance.

[ZooL]

Worse than tyre allocations is the rumour that Pirelli changed the tyres anyway.
http://carlosmiquelb...l.html?spref=tw

When you look at Perez's embarassing delamination for Pirelli I really doubt they changed anything because they wanted to stop that and it still happening.

So the rumour does not match reality.

[TIFOlonSO]

When you look at Perez's embarassing delamination for Pirelli I really doubt they changed anything because they wanted to stop that and it still happening.

So the rumour does not match reality.

Does it look like the 2012 kevlar and not the usual 2013 steel?

[olliek88]

I'm sorry to spoil the party, but how would you explain Force India's great results, then? They've been one of the best at tyre preservation, as well, but they're doing well on these tyres. It means it's not the tyres. Putting the blame on tyres only is ridiculous.

Agreed. Both Ferrari and Lotus are running updates that don't appear to have delivered. Alonso said as much himself if my memory is correct, they tend to go better in the race anyway so today will be a fairer test.

[ZooL]

Does it look like the 2012 kevlar and not the usual 2013 steel?

You cannot tell from a photo like that because they look similar. You have to be very close to tell if its Kevlar or steel belt by looking at the texture, even might have to touch it to tell the difference depending on how its machined.

Edited by ZooL, 30 June 2013 - 10:23.

[olliek88]

Worse than tyre allocations is the rumour that Pirelli changed the tyres anyway.
http://carlosmiquelb...l.html?spref=tw

That's just s**t stirring based on no evidence, frankly. They gave the teams the kevlar prototypes for FP as well as they usual spec tyres, the teams know the difference and someone would notice instantly.

[wrighty]

Given that Pirelli have explicitly stated that their tyre ethos this season is to try and hamper the Red Bulls then the answer is clearly yes, they get involved into the championship battle too much!

[Timstr11]

First of all, Pirelli haven't brought the new glue tyres yet.

That's not correct.
All the news reports I've read so far say that these tyres have the improved bonding.

[Timstr11]

That's just s**t stirring based on no evidence, frankly. They gave the teams the kevlar prototypes for FP as well as they usual spec tyres, the teams know the difference and someone would notice instantly.

This is about the glue change which has been implemented as of the this GP.
The blog speculates that the glue change has affected Ferrari and Lotus.

[ardbeg]

This is about the glue change which has been implemented as of the this GP.
The blog speculates that the glue change has affected Ferrari and Lotus.

They are sniffing the tires? Or did the blogger get a glue sample?

[CHIUNDA]

Given that Pirelli have explicitly stated that their tyre ethos this season is to try and hamper the Red Bulls then the answer is clearly yes, they get involved into the championship battle too much!

So what does it say when Red Bull consistently outpace the three other championship contenders that Pirelli is supposed to be favouring?

[ardbeg]

So what does it say when Red Bull consistently outpace the three other championship contenders that Pirelli is supposed to be favouring?

That the difference would have greater if the tires was to RBR's favor?

[Nonesuch]

Yes, but I don't think there's evidence that suggests they're doing so deliberately. If anything, Pirelli earlier this year refused to change their tyres and threatened/cited Red Bull domination as a reason not to.

The fact is that as long as teams are not allowed to choose their own tyre manufacturers and compounds, there will always be a significant influence on a team's performance that is completely out of their hands. It's quite laughable, but that's what the FIA and the teams wanted. It's their own fault for agreeing to these terms in the first place.

[redreni]

As mattferg seems to be keen triumphantly to point out, even though it's not a secret, my sympathies lie with Ferrari. And I think Alonso is absolutely right to say what he's saying, because it's all part of the game of pressurising Pirelli which Red Bull played so successfully earlier this season. I think softer tyres would be better for Ferrari so that's what they should be pushing for. But I hope for their sake they don't believe their own spin, because when you're slower than Force India and STR you have to take a long hard look at yourself. I'm sure their race pace will be better than qualy, but after the promising start to the season one would have to say things have gone disastrously wrong and the problems lie in Maranello not Oxford.

Pirelli are only doing what they need to do to preserve their own reputation; they would rather have boring races with few pitstops and little overtaking than farcical races like Barcelona. That's undestandable. So Ferrari should keep moaning, because Pirelli's reaction to Red Bull's moaning earlier in the season goes to show how effective moaning can be. Their only problem is they don't have anybody who could come close to challenging Christian Horner in a whining competition. But at the same time as moaning, they need to work on the real problem, which is their car. Because if they don't make radical improvements in the next couple of races it will be time to give up and divert all resources to next year.

[redreni]

Yes, but I don't think there's evidence that suggests they're doing so deliberately. If anything, Pirelli earlier this year refused to change their tyres and threatened/cited Red Bull domination as a reason not to.

The fact is that as long as teams are not allowed to choose their own tyre manufacturers and compounds, there will always be a significant influence on a team's performance that is completely out of their hands. It's quite laughable, but that's what the FIA and the teams wanted. It's their own fault for agreeing to these terms in the first place.

Pirelli initially refused to change the tyres because the rules do not allow for changes to the tyres without unanimous agreement. There should be nothing controversial about that. That includes changes to the glue.

I have no idea if the tyres in use now are the same as at the start of the season because you can't believe a word Pirelli say about this sort of thing as they keep contradicting themselves. But the fact is there has never been unanimous agreement nor has there ever been any acknowledgement from Pirelli or the FIA that there is a safety issue, so any changes to the tyres would be illegal and would confer an illegal advantage on the team that was calling for the changes. And Pirelli did agree to change the tyres, both compound and consruction, for Canada and the FIA had to step in to stop them, and Pirelli's response was to agree to postpone then finally cancel the proposed illegal changes to the compound and construction while pressing ahead with the illegal changes to the bonding. That was entirely down to pressure from one team.

That's why Ferrari are right to complain - the effectiveness of the strategy of publicly criticising the spec tyre supplier has been demonstrated. In my opinion the FIA should put it in the sporting regulations that public criticisms of FIA-contracted suppliers are banned, as the danger is it will drive the suppliers out of the sport, and it also politicises the championship in a completely unnecessary way.

[ardbeg]

Seems like many claims that some teams "have done a better job" adapting to the Pirelli tires and they will now be punished. That is a strange viewpoint because if they have done a better job it means they know how to adapt the car to the tires. They should ask for wild changes every weekend and then just put a "tire useage" knob on the drivers steering wheel.

[Kelateboy]

I've said it before, Pirelli need to evaluate tyre performance after the first 3 races or so and announce the tyre allocations for the rest of the season then, and stick with it. Only that way they can prevent people from complaining about tyres distorting the competition.

Or as an alternative of course, free choices out of the whole tyre range for every team (which I would prefer).

I prefer the 2nd option. They could keep the cost just about the same by bringing the same number of tyres allocated for the race weekend.

[ardbeg]

I prefer the 2nd option. They could keep the cost just about the same by bringing the same number of tyres allocated for the race weekend.

The teams would have to pick well in advance and then the weather would tell if they made the right choice. Big lottery.

[oldracer1957]

EVERY SINGLE RACE... TYRES! TYRES! TYRES!!!!
I guess we`re not allowed to bash on Pirelli, are we?

[ardbeg]

I guess after Silverstone, nobody will question Pirellis wish to modify their tires.

[study]

I wonder what would have happened if they had brought Softs like ALonso and ferrari and lotus fans wanted.

[BigCHrome]

Ferrari and Lotus didn't want safe tires, so Pirelli have had to artificially make sure everyone can compete the race by using harder tires.

[fhaneef]

Ferrari and Lotus didn't want safe tires, so Pirelli have had to artificially make sure everyone can compete the race by using harder tires.

At what point do you decide the tyres are Safe? When they last 20 laps, 30, 40, 50, 60?

I am sure every team can make cars that eat up tyres and make them work hard, not many teams can make them last.
I fear we are going back to the bridgestone days where tyres last 6 races.

[sharo]

Just a bit of correction - Pirelli are not just involved, they are simply messing with the championship.

[ardbeg]

I wonder what would have happened if they had brought Softs like ALonso and ferrari and lotus fans wanted.

Seriously doubt it would have been any difference, I believe the sidewalls are more or less identical. Besides that, I do not recall any requests for softs, rather that Pirelli should not change the original allocation plan and I believe Silverstone was always supposed to be hard and medium.

[Richard T]

What the F happend there??

[BigCHrome]

At what point do you decide the tyres are Safe? When they last 20 laps, 30, 40, 50, 60?

I am sure every team can make cars that eat up tyres and make them work hard, not many teams can make them last.
I fear we are going back to the bridgestone days where tyres last 6 races.

They are safe when they don't randomly blow out.

[Wander]

Today they did.

[ardbeg]

Ferrari and Lotus didn't want safe tires, so Pirelli have had to artificially make sure everyone can compete the race by using harder tires.

And Force India. Regardless, I think Pirelli made some changes in the construction that was allowed by the teams, using a different glue. Maybe it made it worse. In any case, I am quite sure FiA will now order Pirelli to change to the kevlar on safety grounds. They should have done that directly since they were concerned.

[fhaneef]

They are safe when they don't randomly blow out.

The problem is that a team could design its car to eat up its tyres and then criticise the tyres for limiting their performance! When do you decide the tyres are safe for races, 20, 30, 40 ,50 laps.

In the meantime, teams who suffer the most are the ones who designed them to be as efficient as possible possibly giving aways something in qualifying.

Either decide to have a very durable tyre like Bridgestone or decide on set of tyres for use throughout the season. Don't keep changing the tyres from race to race which becomes a lottery and moves the spot light away from the driver.

Edited by fhaneef, 30 June 2013 - 15:09.

[wrighty]

So what does it say when Red Bull consistently outpace the three other championship contenders that Pirelli is supposed to be favouring?

it says that RBR have more brains, more experience and more resources than Pirelli lol

[Afterburner]

it says that RBR have more brains, more experience and more resources than Pirelli lol

Pretty much.