46 replies to this topic

[Greg L]

OK, this is a little off topic with all the Montoya chatter, but while watching the Brazilian GP I started thinking about Senna. I began watching F1 after Senna passed away, and while I have read a great deal about him and his career, I don't really have an appreciation for what kind of driver he was. No matter what I read about Schumi or Mika, for instance, I have a better idea about the types of drivers they are by watching them race every two weeks. I am familiar with their strategy, their personalities, their temperments, their driving style, their strengths and weaknesses, etc. If I simply read a book about Schumi or Mika, I wouldn't have nearly as much appreciation for their driving because I didn't actually watch them race (I hope that makes sense), and it is the same way with Senna.

Anyway, whenever I read anything about F1, I almost always read about how much better Senna was then the rest. Just like today, everyone (fans and detractors alike) look at MS and MH and point out that they are heads and shoulders above the rest; yet people like Martin Brundle, Murray Walker, Peter Windsor, Bernie, and others all say that Senna was head and shoulders above THAT. I've seen the video clips and read all the books, but I still don't have a true feel for the man. I hope that some of you (whether you liked him or not) could share your thoughts and memories about Senna to help me better understand him. All these years later, he is still the standard by which others are judged, and his countrymen still remember him as a god. Hopefully, some of you out there can help me understand exactly why.

Thanks in advance!

[130R]

This might sound dificult, but it will rewarding and worth the time and effort. I recommend you do this:

go out there (and here on the boards) and source complete race tapes from 1984-1994. Complete unedited race by race tapes. Then watch them at your leisure in chronological order.

Then and only then will you realize the magic that Senna could produce. The emotion that he displayed. His religious affliction. His rivalries with Mansell, Prost and more.

Do it. It will be well worth your time!

[doohanOK]

In fact, someone went up to Chip Ganassi in Brasilia, Brazil before the Rio CART race a few years and said to Chip that Montoya was the next Senna.

regards,
doohanOK.

[MattFoster]

what 130R suggests is the way to go. Don't ask a fan you need to make up your own mind by watching races he was in.

[Schummy]

I saw the Senna era and IMO Senna was seen a bit as Schumacher today, but maybe with more charisma. In these days there was people loving him and people hating him, there were Prost's fans and Ayrton's fans. No everyone thought he was better than Alain, but the general view was Senna had more raw speed and less strategic strength.

For just a measure of domination (not for unbiased comparison of talent, becuase cars and rivals are always different) statistics are Ok. You can see MS and AS have both of them strong stats. Senna was more dominant in poles, Shuey more in race (fastest laps, % race wins).

From a spectacle point of view, my favourite driver was Gilles Villeneuve (amazing car control and "impossible" attempts). I found Ayrton less "showy", except in qualifying in turbo days! I see MS more "dramatic" (Brazil is an example: a second place full of drama) and, thus, more "entertainer" Also I liked Mansell when he was in an "on" day. I deeply admire Prost but he was more smooth and in his grippy era he didn't need any spectacle to drive fast.

[theMot]

Senna was pretty good but there was this driver around back then called Prost who was head and shoulders above him!!!

[senninha]

I think there was a Senna's sentence wich express a lot of his thinks:

"Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's a part of me. I've doing it all my live and nobody will destroy it." (after beeing robbed at Japan 89)

In fact, you can value Senna for just one thing: he didn't need to drive for Ferrari to be remembered forever. It says a lot.

Apart Senna only Clark is in the same position.

[ForzaF1]

First of all a coulpe of comments of what others have said:

In the Senna vs. Prost days I for one was a huge fan of both of them, both were great drivers, great Champions. Their rivalry added alot to the sport IMO. They had very different styles, Prost the Professor never did any more than was necesary to get the job done, Senna had enormous passion and drive, even by F1 Driver standards, and was always flat out. His last major mistake was hitting a back marker at Monaco... he was in the lead by a big margin but was still going 100% because he wanted to lap Prost to break his spirit.

He never did drive for Ferrari, but he always wanted to at some point in his career, no matter how uncompetitive the car was. I always wonder what would have happened if Prost had stayed at McLaren and Senna went to Ferrari in 1990!

To me Senna was the greatest of all time. I've thought about this alot and its very hard to put a finger on exactly why. Senna had tremendous skill and passion for the sport, but he's certainly not alone in that. I think that Senna had more raw skill than anyone, his domination at Monaco and his (IIRC) 65 poles are testemant to that fantastic skill.

I suppose you could say that Senna had every trait that makes a great driver to excess!

[Williams]

The thing that was neat about Senna was his mystical approach to racing. Here he describes what it's like being "in the zone".

"Monte Carlo ‘88, the last qualifying session. I was already on pole and I was going faster and faster. One lap after the other, quicker and quicker and quicker. I was at one stage just on pole, then by half a second and then one second and I just kept going. Suddenly I was nearly two seconds faster than anybody else, including my team mate with the same car. And suddenly I realized that I was no longer driving the car consciously. I was driving it by a kind of instinct, only I was in a different dimension. It was like I was in a tunnel. Not only the tunnel under the hotel but the whole circuit was a tunnel. I was just going and going, more and more and more and more. I was way over the limit but still able to find even more.

"Then suddenly something just kicked me. I kind of woke up and realized that I was in a different atmosphere than you normally are. My immediate reaction was to back off, slow down. I drove back slowly to the pits and I didn’t want to go out any more that day. It frightened me because I was well beyond my conscious understanding. It happens rarely but I keep these experiences very much alive inside me because it is something that is important for self-preservation."

-Ayrton Senna

[FredF1]

Definitely get the videos.
They are well compiled plus, because they are made every year, there's none of that purple-prosed hindsight involved. They tell it as it was each year.
1984 - Putting the Toleman at the 'wrong' end of the grid.
Portugal '85 his first win.
That gorgeous black Lotus storming through the torrential rain.
1988 - On been told that he'd equalled Clark's record and the sheer humility of his response.....
I can see why Magic says 'Magic Senna'.

[Thunder]

He was god.;)

[jmcgavin]

I was a regular GP viewer in Sennas era, I would certainly say in selected races 84-87 and pretty much for then on till his death he seemed to operating on a level beyond anyone else racing at the time and that very few drivers have ever reached. i totally agree with the spiritual element that he projected, embodied in his descriptions of driving at the limit.

I would say that he was the best driver ever seen as far as a perfect single lap goes, as shown by his record of 65 poles.

Also bear in mind over varying parts of his career he was dealing with turbo boost, limited fuel , pit stops were not a regular part of every race, and a manual gearchange, plus at least 3 other all-time greats of f1 competing at the same time

[Zeus]

You want to know about Senna? I'll give you a different perspective. He was a genius. He was a bastard. The type of guy that when he got into the lead of a race, you knew at that very moment that it was OVER. Nobody was going to catch him. He was a driver who was every bit as aggressive as Michael Schumacher, maybe even more so. He was not afraid to make contact, or push his way through. He was also very intellegent-- he learned Prost's style for preserving equipment, and adapted it to his driving. He was one of those drivers that didn't have to worry about the "racing line" the way conventional drivers do. Senna knew 20 ways to get around a corner, all of them fast. He could rally an entire team around him and uplift all of them to perform above their abilities. He was one of the few drivers that did indeed get legitimate wins in lesser cars. He was the best that I ever saw. I still miss F1 without him.

[MattB]

Great points all, especially jmcgavin's. Without the rivalry of Mansell, Piquet, Patrese, Rosberg, Nannini, Alesi, Berger, and especially Prost, the story may have well been less dramatic. Senna raced against some great drivers and most importantly, some great personalities.

[RabidDogRacing]

Senna was a God(need I say more?).
Senna would also do anything to win(ramming Prost to win the WDC).
Senna was also human(brain fade at Monaco hitting the armco just before the tunnel while in the lead).

The best way to really understand Senna is to watch the tapes. Reading all the hype (and Gripe) about the man will not give a true understanding of who he really was.

R.I.P. Ayrton Senna:cry:

[Duck]

I have to laugh when I hear all of the negative comments, and remarks pertinent to Michael Schumacher's current "unsporting", and at at times "unsafe" driving tactics. Hell, when Senna was driving, NO ONE - not even his teammates, were immune from his obsessive, and accutely aggressive driving style, and behavior. Senna just absolutely messed with the heads of his competition, and through physical driving intimidation, literally took no prisoners. I'm sure Aryton wanted his competition to look in their mirrors, and say to themselves, "****... it's Senna!" He took the term "psyching out" to new levels, and was totally extraordinary. Even acknowledging Schumacher's zeal, and talent, there will never be another Senna.

[Bjorn]

Do you know if I could find these tapes online somewhere? I tried amazon, and their stock of F1 tapes is very limited... These are quite hard to find in Iceland, so I have to look to the web, I think.

[FredF1]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Do you know if I could find these tapes online somewhere? I tried amazon, and their stock of F1 tapes is very limited... These are quite hard to find in Iceland, so I have to look to the web, I think.

Try:





www.dukevideo.com

[magic]

to get a picture of senna watch at least these 10 races;


1984 Monaco Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The winner today will not be the fastest man, but the one who makes the fewest mistakes"

That was how Prost saw the race before taking his place on the grid and he never said a truer word. Nigel Mansell should have won this one while Senna, in only his seventh Grand Prix probably would have. In the end the chequered flag fell to Prost who managed to stay ahead as the race was stopped after just 31 laps.

In one of the wettest races ever seen in the Principality Prost laid down the guantlet in qualifying with a stunning run to pole that edged out Mansell and Arnoux. Alain got the better start and was off into the distance as the field quickly thinned with spins and accidents. The two stars of the start were Senna and Bellof who were up to 9th and 11th respectively having started 13th and 20th on the grid. Mansell did his best to stay with Alain but the Frenchman managed to pull out before the end of the first lap.

It took Nigel 10 laps to catch Prost finally taking him in the approaches to Mirabeau. He pulled away and led for five laps until his rear wheel caught the painted white lines. That sent him spinning off into the barriers and marked the end of his race. By lap 18 Senna was challenging Prost, having disposed of Lauda. Lauda's dislike for wet weather was certainly showing and the Brazilian was followed by Bellof just a few laps later. By lap 28 Senna was just 10 seconds adrift of Prost. By lap 31 he was only seven seconds behind and the Frenchman's brakes were beginning to trouble him. Everyone was anticipating a battle between the exciting new talents of Bellof and Senna but it was not to be as the red flags were brought out at the end of lap 31.

The race director, former racer Jacky Ickx, became the centre of a political storm when confronted with the accusations that he had fixed the race for Prost. The 'evidence' involved a convoluted theory that connected the two men via their association with Porsche. True fans knew that Ickx, a renowned wet-weather expert himself, was too much of a competitor to fix races. Whatever the reasons the outcome remained the same although Senna had finally announced his arrival in a manner that few could ignore.

1985 Portuguese Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Senna came to Estoril, took the race by the scruff of the neck and didn't let go until he had crossed the line having driven in conditions that saw some of F1's greatest talents heading into the scenery.

In what was to be the hallmark of his career Senna staked his claim on pole with a lap that was all drama. By the time the race was over the crowd and critics alike had already given Ayrton the nickname 'Magic', in recognition of the effortless way he had sliced through the field. Drivers of the abilty of Prost, Patrese and Berger simply slithered off the track while Senna - his fluorescent yellow helmet clearly visible in the spray - guided his Lotus to victory.

From the word go he was off, and he soon established an unassailable lead. Behind him the biggest battle was between de Angelis, Alboreto and Prost. Prost went out when he hit a puddle on the start-finish straight and aquaplaned into the barriers. Tambay, in the Renault, joined the battle and gave de Angelis a few scares before finally forcing his way into third place, a lap down on Senna and Alboreto.

After the race Senna said "The moments of joy in our sport are very intense, but very short." For the young Brazilian, and his Lotus team, this was one of those moments.

1986 Spanish Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Senna set out his stall during qualifying with his usual do-or-die approach while Mansell was on the second row behind his team-mate Nelson Piquet. The race was eventful from the off with Palmer and Jones crashing out after a coming together on the very first lap. Up at the front Senna was heading off into the sunset keeping the pack at bay for the first 39 laps. Mansell had refused to settle for second place and on lap 40 he blasted past the Brazilian to take lead, his Honda engine clearly much more powerful than the Renault onboard Senna's Lotus.

Within a few laps Mansell had put a four second gap between himself at the Lotus but Senna continued to press hard despite the best efforts of Prost to force his way past the Brazilian. With ten laps to go Senna challenged for the lead but Mansell held him off. Senna refused to lie down and tried again at the hairpin. This time he go through and in the confusion Prost also sneaked past Mansell into second place.

Mansell decided on a gamble and came in for new rubber. He emerged from the Jerez pits with a 20 second deficit on Senna with only nine laps left. He simply flew, cutting around four seconds off the Brazilian's lead with every lap, but he still had to get pst Prost. With a lap to go he squeezed through and began the chase once more just one and a half seconds behind Ayrton. By the time the pair came up to the hairpin they were running neck and neck and it was obvious that the race would decided by the acceleration out of the last corner. The Williams was fractionally quicker and as the two men crossed the line they both punched the air believing they had won the race.

The camera's showed that Senna had and that Nigel would have to be content with second.


1987 Monaco Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Senna arrived in Monaco determined to make up for the disappointment of the Belgian Grand Prix. In qualifying Mansell set the early pace and pipped Senna to the top spot although the Brazilian made it onto the front row ahead of Piquet's Williams.

The competition between Mansell and Piquet has grown since the two men were first partnered at Williams and it certainly beginning to show, and the Patrick Head penned FW11, with help from aerodynamics guru Frank Dernie, was the perfect tool for the two men to fight with. The only downside of two such battlers in the team was that many expected the drivers to spend most of their time fighting each other instead of working for the team.

When the serious business of racing finally began Mansell made a strong start but couldn't shake Senna. The Brazilian tried on several occasions to force his way through but Mansell looked in total control. That all went wrong for him just after one-third distance when his turbo system failed and sent him into retirement.

That allowed Senna to take the lead and he refused to give it up. Piquet finished second ahead of the Ferrari duo of Alboreto and Berger.

1988 Japanese Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Japanese Grand Prix of 1988 was more than just a race for Ayrton Senna - it was the vindication of his life. On the long haul flight he retreated into himself and became focussed on one thing. He had to win to keep his chance of the championship alive.

In calculating the total for the season a driver could count 11 results from the 16 races. Prost had already finished in 12 races, with second place his lowest score. The most he could leave Suzuka with was 81 points. Senna had finished in the points 11 times but if he discarded his single point from Estoril he could take 87 to Adelaide - assuming of course that he won in Japan.

Prost set his stall out early on Friday with a quick run in the morning session. In the afternoon Senna took provisional pole on his first set of tyres. On Saturday he confirmed the position with a five lap run that saw him gathering momentum all the time.

On race day he fluffed the start. Stalled. Partly driver error and partly clutch slip. Luckily the starting grid at Suzuka is on a slope and he able to roll the car forward and jump start the engine. By the end of lap 1 he was back in eighth place. Within a few laps he took Patrese, Nannini, Boutsen & Alboreto. On lap 11 he bagged Berger to claim third place. Capelli was next. On lap 19 Capelli's electrics failed and Senna was second. Rain began to fall.

The entire season came down to this moment as Prost and Senna battled for supremacy. Senna came at the Frenchman hard and got past him after eight laps of trying. Prost came back but could not get past as the rainfall increased. Senna spent the final few laps gesturing for the race to be stopped. He was running on slicks and could easily have been pitched off in a moment.

On the final corner of the final lap, he claimed he saw God. Whatever he won and the stage was set for a finale in Adelaide.

1989 Japanese Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a season long battle between Senna and Prost the stage was set for a showdown. Both men qualified on the front row. Despite being a second slower in qualifying Prost, having modified his car for more straight line speed, got away cleanly into the lead. The race that followed was to be one of the epic battle of recent years. Senna attempted every trick in the book, and quite a few that hadn't been written yet. With just six laps left he launched into the fast left-hand bend just before the pit chicane just inches from the Frenchman's rear wing. He then pulled out and attempted to outbreak Prost going into the chicane. Prost assumed that Senna was relying on his good graces to make room for him but after two years of intimidation he was simply fed up of the Brazilian and closed the door on him in emphatic style. The two McLarens slithered to a halt in the middle of the track, their wheels locked together. Prost climbed out of the cockpit convinced that the championship was his. Senna signaled for assistance from the marshals and resumed the race. Unfortunately for him he rejoined the circuit at the wrong place and despite going on to win the race he was disqualified.

At the subsequent appeal he received a damning indictment of his driving style, was fined $100,000 and hit with a six month suspended ban. The disqualification was also confirmed. Ayrton believed Prost to be the instigator of all this and resolved to never having anything to do with again. He also spent the winter convinced that Jean-Marie Balestre the President of the FIA, had engineering the championship so his countryman could emerge victorious.

1990 Italian Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brilliant Brazilian Ayrton Senna completed his sixth win of the season at Monza to extend his overall lead at the top of the F1 drivers championship. He never looked like surrendering the initiative from the moment he scorched off pole. Reigning world champion Alain Prost passed Senna's McLaren team-mate Gerhard Berger early on and reduced his arch rival's lead to around five seconds with some ten laps remaining, but Senna had the edge when it came to negotiating the back markers and easily held off Prost in his Ferrari. Victory at Monza was sweet for world championship leader Ayrton Senna. "It was very satisfying. The car's not been working well here this week. We've had so many problems in training and testing," Senna said. "Gerhard (Berger) kept me very much on the limit at the start and I had someone close behind from there on. You have to be careful with the back markers. Historically Monza hasn't been great for me with back markers," said Senna, who dominated at Monza in '88 and '89 only to come a cropper.

Ayrton Senna's 26th Formula One race victory underlined his increasing domination of the 1990 season. Senna and defending world champion Alain Prost have now won ten of this year's Grands Prix between them. The two great rivals exchanged lap records almost at will in the latter stages of an otherwise low-key Italian GP, Senna coming out ultimately fastest in 1 min 26.254 secs - all but 150mph. Prost is now 16 points behind Senna with four rounds to go. Derek Warwick crashed his Lotus on the first lap of the Monza circuit and the race had to be re-started. Warwick went off the parabolic bend, hit the guard-rail, bounced back into the track and capsized. The 36-year-old British driver slid out of the cockpit unhurt. He was able to join the race again in a new car. Warwick explained after the incident that the left-side wheels of the car went on the grand, he lost control and crashed at the bend. Ayrton Senna won the restarted race.

Nigel Mansell finished his first F1 race since Mexico back in June six long Grands Prix ago. But it was a hardly less frustrating Sunday afternoon for Britain's number one, who still insists in public he will retire at the end of this season. Mansell started fourth on the grid but never seriously looked like challenging first Alain Prost and then Gerhard Berger for third. Three points was scant consolation for the renewed feeling that Mansell's Ferrari simply is not race-competitive as that of team-mate Alain Prost.

1991 Hungarian Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In front of an over-capacity crowd Senna had one of those days for which he will always be remembered. As expected he claimed pole position with another blistering run late in the qualifying session, just ahead of the Williams duo of Patrese and Mansell.

When the lights went out the Brazilian blasted into the front and that was the last anyone saw of him as he made short work of the highly technical Budapest circuit.

As the race progressed the only driver capable of challenging the leading three was Alain Prost but once again he was let down by his equipment. His Ferrari engine gave up around one-third distance. The Brabham-Yamaha pairing of Blundell & Brundle fared little better and both were out just before the end of play.

1992 Monaco Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mansell's Williams had led from pole with a gap of over 30 seconds at one stage from the Brazilian in a McLaren. But a pit stop with just seven laps remaining held Mansell up and rejoined the circuit 5.8 seconds behind Senna. The Briton set a new lap record in a brilliant charge to regain the lead but the wily Senna maintained his position to edge out Mansell by just 0.215 secs and win his fifth Monaco Grand Prix.

Nigel Mansell's astonishing run of Grand Prix victories came to an unbelievable end as a puncture gave rival Ayrton Senna his chance. The Williams driver looked set to record his first win at Monaco and equal Jackie Stewart's record of 27 wins but was delivered a cruel blow. Senna was comfortably set for second place in his McLaren after Mansell's lead looked unassailable. But a punctured tyre put Mansell in the pits and Senna slipped into the lead for his first win of the season.

Ayrton Senna acknowledged he would never have won the Monaco Grand Prix had Nigel Mansell not picked up a puncture just nine laps from the end. "I think, of course, that without Mansell stopping for tyres we would never have come close to victory. Over the last five or six laps when I realised I was in front I had nothing else to give, the tyres were completely worn out. It was very difficult because Nigel was several seconds quicker than me. It was like driving on ice," he said.

Nigel Mansell consoled himself with six points to boost his championship bid after a puncture robbed him of victory in the 50th Monaco Grand Prix. "That must be the best second place of my career, but of course I'm very disappointed, especially for the team. We were in control for 7/8ths of the race and then had a puncture. I knew it when I came through the tunnel and I spun and nearly lost it. I had to drive very slowly back to the pits and that cost me a lot of time," Mansell commented.

1993 Australian Grand Prix
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ayrton Senna ends his superb McLaren career with a convincing win
Senna lapped all but the two Williams as he claimed his 41st GP victory, beating new world champion Alain Prost by 9.25 seconds. The Brazilian finished runner-up in the World F1 Championship, edging out Britain's Damon Hill who was third behind his Williams team-mate after recovering from a spin. It was the fifth win of the season for Senna who now replaces retiring Prost at Williams next year.

Ayrton Senna made the best of his pole position when the race finally got underway, after three attempts, at the 2.349-mile Adelaide circuit. Senna roared into the lead in his McLaren, ahead of Alain Prost and Damon Hill and steadily pulled away from the Williams duo. Martin Brundle, starting from the back row after stalling on the warm-up lap, was back in his place on the grid for the first re-start. Eddie Irvine then overshot his spot and found himself at the back when the race was again re-started.

Finn JJ Lehto made a spectacular exit from the final race of 1993, his Sauber going almost vertical in the air after missing a chicane. He went out on lap 57, only the eighth driver to retire in the race. Britain's Johnny Herbert was among the early retirements, suffering mechanical trouble with the Lotus. Eddie Irvine joined him on the sidelines after damaging the suspension on his Jordan in a spin. Benetton's Michael Schumacher was also forced out with engine trouble.

Ayrton Senna claimed a record win for McLaren in his final race for the British team. It was their 104th GP victory, leaving them on the top of the all-time list one ahead of Ferrari. The Brazilian also overhauled Damon Hill in the battle for runner-up spot in the World Championship. Hill almost crashed out as he tried to improve on third in the race. "I thought there was an opening but Alain (Prost) held a tight line. I was having a go but I lost it on the exit," he explained.

Ayrton Senna led for all but five laps on his way to victory but insisted it was no easy task. "It was difficult to maintain a good pace and to cope with Alain (Prost). I was also worried about my clutch on the third start." Senna temporarily lost the lead when he made an early pit stop and admitted: "I stopped a little too early. The tyres were no better." He paid tribute to the McLaren team and said he was leaving friends there. "I keep the good moments and happiness we have had," he added.

-----------------------------------------

[lespips]

Magic, you forgot about the 1993 European GP at Donnington.
Surely one of Senna's best ever drives?
Around the outside of Wenndlinger through the Craner curves. And from 5th on the grid to 1st by the end of lap 1.
Amazing.

[Greg L]

First of all, let me thank everyone who responded to this thread, I really appreciate your time; I'm already getting a better idea of what Senna was all about. I agree, though, that probably the only way I'll ever be able to truly grasp Senna's skills and personality is if I watch the races in which he competed - this sounds expensive and time consuming, but I think it would be worth the effort (as 130R said). Also, while I was reading these comments, it was interesting to see some comparisons between Senna and Schumacher. What is most amazing about Senna's accomplishments (to me) is the calibar of drivers that Senna competed against. No offense to MS or current drivers, but damn! To win that many races and poles while competing against the likes of Prost, Mansell, Rosberg, Berger, Lauda, and others boggles my mind. From what I have read and seen, it seems as if he was born for one purpose: racing. How tragically poetic that his life's obsession should, in the end, take his life. Remarkable.

[Ivan]

Wow Magic,
Do your fingers hurt.
Greg,
As everyone has said, just get your hands on all the videos and books(a lot out of print). One of the best things is that when Senna was defeating drivers, he was beating the best of the best not just second rate drivers. There were always multiple WD champions in his races. And what A LOT of people forget is that on paper he would have won FOUR championships in a row!!!! Balistre (their Bernie) took it away race wins in favor of Prost.

[Ivan]

typo (it) sorry

[magic]

looking for tapes?

atlas member nige red 5 aka emlyn.....THE F1 TAPE MASTER

go to:

louem@btinternet.com

[Duck]

GregL,just one more thing.... When Senna was competing (especially in his early years), F1 had a much more evenly divided field of competition, unlike the current era with McLaren, and Ferrari working with annual budgets in the $150 million range compared to smaller teams working with fractions of that. Back in the mid to late eighties technology hadn't morphed into the quasi-absurd dimension it has today. Senna absolutely DESPISED the concept of fully, OR semi-automatic gear boxes, traction control, ABS, etc.. He wanted the playing field as even as possible so as to demoralize his opposition man-to-man.
Can you imagine Aryton in the 2001 Ferrari, or McLaren had he lived? It's my contention he would just totally brutalize his competition, as he did when he was alive. Again, no one will ever come close.

[Sulla]

Whenever anyone talks about Senna it must be mentioned that Alain Prost was his teammate. 88-89 was a time when two of the greatest drivers/racers were together on the same team, something that is unlikely to occur for awhile. There was tremendous drama and acrimony between the two which fueled an intense competitive desire to beat the other. Whatever anyone says about Ron Dennis he successfully managed those two men on the same team for two seasons. Senna was a fantastic driver capable of some very emotional reactions to perceived wrongs which ultimately cost him in the perceptions of many.

Additionally it is interesting to note what some of his teammates actually accomplished.

Prost
Berger
Andretti
Hakkinen
Hill



Very nearly all champions of some sort and two have gone on to accomplish other things in F1 that are noteable.

Of course there were other teammates who weren't so noteworthy and tragically with De Angelis (RIP) we'll just never know how good he really was but I always thought he was a pretty formidable driver.

[magic]

 Sulla
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whenever anyone talks about Senna it must be mentioned that Alain Prost was his teammate. 88-89 was a time when two of the greatest drivers/racers were together on the same team, something that is unlikely to occur for awhile.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

good points and very important.
to understand senna you first got to realise how great 4xwdc, 51 vics prost was.
without senna he would have had an even higher record.
like 7x wdc for instance.

let me provide you with a shortcut;

prost had 3xwdc lauda as macteammate in '84 and '85.
then he partnered 1xwdc rosberg in '86.
then prost was joined at mac by (3xwdc) senna in '88 and '89.
in '90 he raced ferraris with (1xwdc) mansell.

quite an impressive bunch of teammates, ms eat your heart out.

what happened?

i take monacoqualifying as the yardstick.

prost was 1 second quicker than lauda in '84. ouch.
prost was 1 second quicker than lauda in '85. ouch.
prost was 2 seconds quicker than rosberg in '86. ouch. ouch.
prost was 1 second quicker than mansell in '90. ouch.

prost the best driver in the world.
in equal cars he trashed his multiwdc teammates.
lauda, rosberg, mansell.

and senna?

senna was 1.5 second quicker than prost in '88. ouch.
senna was 1+ second quicker than prost in '89. ouch.

get the picture?

[Sulla]

Yeah

I know.

But we needn't take anything away from Prost he was also a very, very great driver. The two together were...well 15 wins in one season...as Neo says in the Matrix..."whoa"!

[Duck]

Senna was one of the very few friends and supporters Michael Andretti had during his very brief F1 stint. Senna knew and realized what a rough go Michael was having, and really took Andretti under his wing. As a matter of fact, I believe Senna was incensed, and furious with Ron Dennis' treatment of Andretti - perhaps a factor in Senna's decision to leave McLaren for Williams.
Upon winning the 1994 C.A.R.T. season opener in Surfer's Paradise with the then "brand new" Reynard chassis owned by Ganassi Racing, Michael Andretti received a very heartfeld fax from Senna, congratulating him (Andretti) on the victory. I'll bet Michael still possesses that fax.

[magic]

duck;Michael Andretti received a very heartfeld fax from Senna, congratulating him (Andretti) on the victory. I'll bet Michael still possesses that fax.
-------------

wow, i didn't know that.

he was really mellowing bigtime after prost retired.

[Sulla]

Magic

In the 10 Monaco races between 1984-1993 only two guys won there. Since 1994 'til now...guess what ;)

[magic]

for greg:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=16730

[mhferrari]

Senna was one of the few drivers, such as Fangio, who could make a car look way better than it deserved. One case is in 1993, when he won five races, including when the mighty Williams was on the track.
One such win was Donnington Park, in which he moved from, I believe, it was fifth to first and put every other driver to shame. He also won dry weather events, which you would think the dominant Williams-Renaults would, but that was not the case. As well, he had 65 poles. The 41 wins betrays him, as you would figure, at the time of his death, he would have had two more years.
I am certain he would have at least won one more championship and have more than 51 wins, but that was not to be....

[magic]

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=15371

[magic]

http://www.atlasf1.c...=&postid=271585

[magic]

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=14396

[Ivan]

Duck,
Even though Senna hated the new technology, he was the first to give active ride it's first win for Lotus in '87.

[Duck]

Ivan, you are absolutely correct ! And as much as Senna loathed all forms of whiz-bang driver aids, could you even begin to imagine him driving a modern Ferrari, McLaren, or Williams? What a fantasy !

[Greg L]

Thanks for the additional insight, everyone, and thanks Magic for the thread links. Wow, I guess I never realized that Senna provoked such animosity among fans (and other drivers, I presume). I've already begun to search out tapes, and I'm looking forward to filling in your comments with video. Most surprising to me was the large number of people who think that Senna was overrated. Outpacing Prost in the same car and you're overrated?? What the hell does a guy have to do? Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into a "Is Senna really a good driver" thread; thanks again all!

[ForzaF1]

Magic:

Fantastic post re. Prost vs. Senna. Prost was one of the all time greats and Senna could out drive even him. IMO Senna was the best ever and there will never be another like him.

[senninha]

Originally posted by magic
duck;Michael Andretti received a very heartfeld fax from Senna, congratulating him (Andretti) on the victory. I'll bet Michael still possesses that fax.
-------------

wow, i didn't know that.

he was really mellowing bigtime after prost retired.

Me too ! Great.


Magic,

In your top 10 list you make me remember Italy 90 - even competing against Prost's Ferrari, the tifosis had to aplause Senna on podium. Was the best revenge for 88 and 89, when the italians cursed Senna a lot. Senna never accepted the tifosis' reaction in 89, just after his engine blew up.
Hungarian 91 - the pole master was 6 races (!) without a single one due the Williams' car. But he did the pole.
Australia 93 - after the race there was a Tina Turner show. When she sing the song "Simply the best", she pushed surprisiling Ayrton to stage and dedicated the song to him. Senna was very embarassed ...


What about: Portugal 84, Spa 85, USA 86 (brazilian soccer revenge), Canada 88 and 89, Brazil 91(!!) and 93, Europe 93 (!!!) ...

[911]

For me, there will never be a better driver than Ayrton Senna. Sure, he wasn't perfect and he did make mistakes, but, IMHO, he was the consumate Grand Prix driver.

Outside the cockpit & away from the circuit, Senna was also a very good person, too. I've read countless stories about Senna's generosity and good will towards people, children & charital foundations. If you get "A Star Named Ayrton Senna," you will see the other side of Ayrton.

Another measure of a man is the effect he has on others after he is no longer here. It's been nearly 7 years since Senna's death and he is still a major focal point in discussion amongst this forum & various magazine articles around the world.

And, as many have already mentioned, he raced in an era where the competition was outstanding: Prost, Rosberg, Lauda, Piquet, Mansell, Laffitte, Jones, Tambay, Berger, etc. Note that there are 5 WDC's listed here.

He was good for the sport and he represented F1 well. He had changed a lot as a person during his years, and became a better sportsman in his later years.

Many people have expressed their opinion on Ayrton. Some didn't like him, but many did. Personally, I still miss the man in the yellow helmet.

911

[JPMCrew]

Originally posted by theMot
Senna was pretty good but there was this driver around back then called Prost who was head and shoulders above him!!!

Head and Shoulders above him eh?

1989:
Poles: Senna 14 - Prost 2

[markzed]

If I had to rate Senna against Schumacher, Senna would win hands down.
I don't particularly like either of them. I weigh a driver's attitude (or my perception of their attitude) fairly highly when appraising them.
Not liking Senna, however, does not diminish my respect for him.
He was a 110% driver, he made racing exciting and he helped cement my love for Formula 1.

Who will ever forget his 1/2 car length win in the Lotus?
(or did I forget the correct details?)

[jmcgavin]

I have to admit I was a huge Prost fan and i'm sure one of the reasons i was initially so anti-Senna initially was in retrospect the fact that you could never write him off at any point

He was always pulling together THE perfect lap to get pole in the dying minutes when it counted, as for the race take Japan 88, crucial race, gets the start wrong, then promptly drives through the field and wins the race.

I have such vivid memories of watching Donnington 93 and the opening lap as it was such a bizarre mixture of immense frustration that he was getting so easily to the front then passing Prost and sheer admiration for his driving skill, he was head and shoulders above anybody else on that racetrack.

I don't think we'll ever see anybody like him again

[BruceS]

Greg: If you don't have the VHS tape "A Star Named Ayrton Senna", I highly recommend it. I don't know if you've seen the qualifying lap at Monaco (not sure what year --either '89 or '90), that will give you a good idea about the type of driver he was. He was so focused that he said it was like an out of body experience, he just kept on going lap after lap faster and faster (even though he had blown the rest of the field away). Then all of a sudden he comes back to Earth and finally realizes whats going on and finally pulls it in to the pits. Its incredible, probably the best footage I've ever seen!!


His mind was like a computer--he could remember everything about a lap and would know exactly what the car was doing (or wasn't). The team could debrief him and compare what he was saying compared to all the computer read-outs, and he was always spot-on.

[BruceS]

Sorry Williams, I pretty much repeated what you said earlier in the thread, I posted before reading the whole thing.

Anyways Greg, if you haven't got the tape, get it.