47 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

See title - it looks like it is a new documentary. They did one a decade or so ago apparently, but I doubt they would repeat a decade old film, so looks like this is definitely new.

Looking forward to it.

[D-Type]

Let's hope I get home from Goodwood on time!

[mfd]

See title - it looks like it is a new documentary. They did one a decade or so ago apparently, but I doubt they would repeat a decade old film, so looks like this is definitely new.

What's the source, as googling shows only these two, one current radio & one old film

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b01rfy5f

[D.M.N.]

What's the source, as googling shows only these two, one current radio & one old film

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b01rfy5f

DigiGuide

At the moment it just says...
21:00 Hunt v Lauda (Documentary)

[chr1s]

I have one on VHS which was called "The clash of the Titens" and it was very well done, with interviews with Lauda, Daniele Audetto, Teddy Mayer and Alastair Caldwell. There is no reason why it could'nt be reapeted, especially now that Ron Howard has revived interest in the 76' season.

[Simon Taylor]

This is indeed a completely new documentary, setting out to cover the whole 1976 Hunt/Lauda battle. It includes fresh interviews with Daniele Audetto, Alistair Caldwell, Niki himself, even James' sister (who has never appeared talking about her brother before, apparently). I have only been allowed to see a few snatches of it, but they were enough to indicate that the researchers have managed to find some remarkable bits of footage from 1976 that were new to me, as well as the old familiar stuff.

It goes out after Top Gear at 9pm this Sunday on BBC2. If you expect to be stuck in the traffic on your way home from Goodwood it might be worth setting your video recorder, if you haven't got the means to catch up with it on iPlayer.

[SophieB]

This is indeed a completely new documentary, setting out to cover the whole 1976 Hunt/Lauda battle. It includes fresh interviews with Daniele Audetto, Alistair Caldwell, Niki himself, even James' sister (who has never appeared talking about her brother before, apparently). I have only been allowed to see a few snatches of it, but they were enough to indicate that the researchers have managed to find some remarkable bits of footage from 1976 that were new to me, as well as the old familiar stuff.

It goes out after Top Gear at 9pm this Sunday on BBC2. If you expect to be stuck in the traffic on your way home from Goodwood it might be worth setting your video recorder, if you haven't got the means to catch up with it on iPlayer.

Many thanks for the fresh info - sounds very exciting!

[Philip Whiteman]

It is a new programme - my car and aviation-nut brother, Matthew directed it for Lion Television, having done much of the research himself. Matthew also adapted and directed Battle of Britain veteran Geoffrey Wellum's autobiographical 'First Light' as a docu-drama for the Beeb. 'Hunt v Lauda' is by contrast more of a pure documentary. I've only seen the odd bit of footage over his shoulder and have not had a preview - but it looked good.

Matthew will be please to hear that Simon Taylor appreciated the bits he's seen. I have set the digibox-recorder...

[arttidesco]

Looking forward to this

[crooky369]

Tempted to record this and leave it unwatched until Rush comes out. I basically know the story of '76 but I don't want any spoilers as such before I see the film I guess...

[mfd]

Tempted to record this and leave it unwatched until Rush comes out. I basically know the story of '76 but I don't want any spoilers as such before I see the film I guess...

What's to spoil, it's a documentary! Have you not seen "When Playboys Ruled the World"?

[Philip Whiteman]

If you want to see 'Hunt v Lauda' in full, you are going to have to record the TV broadcast: unfortunately, due to a 'rights issue' the iPlayer version will lack some key footage

[Tenmantaylor]

Was great. The editing style was similar to Senna and very original footage heavy which was great. Still had the talking heads but even they were good for the most part, specially Niki and the then McLaren boss'. Just a shame James not around to reminisce. He made the most of it though, good on the old boy.

[Allan Lupton]

Yes very good but. . .
why do people write the narrator's script without accepting that English has various forms of past tense? The "talking heads" including Lauda and Audetto working in a second language, all could and did refer to the events of 37 years ago in the past, so what's the scriptwriter think he/she is doing?

Edited by Allan Lupton, 14 July 2013 - 21:54.

[cpbell]

Overall, pretty good, IMO. Slightly odd appearance of the grid at Kyalami in the section discussing the Brazilian GP, which seemed odd, but that's hardly a huge problem.

[Gary C]

Oh dear. I thought it was a complete waste of time, albeit a well-made one. It was an EXACT copy of 'Clash of the Titans' (BBC) from fifteen years ago. The exact same people were rolled out to tell the exact same stories but fifteen years later. Nearly all the library clips were the same and in some places of worse quality than used in 'Clash of the Titans'. The only new interviewee was James' sister. Behind the scenes I was told that the programme was trying to stay away from the usual set of library clips and wanted to rely on previously un-seen home movie footage. Apart from the home movies of the after-party at Seneca Lodge I didn't see much evidence of that. Sorry to be so negative, it's an hour of my life that I won't be getting back.

[Gary C]

..............obviously only made to cash in on 'Rush' being released in a couple of months.

[Charlieman]

I viewed the old "Clash of the Titans" video recently. The structure was very similar to tonight's programme -- some heads were greyer this evening -- but it's a really good way to tell a story, so I am not knocking the new narration. I don't remember seeing the clip with the German speaking TV presenter talking to Lauda's mother on the phone; the bloke's body language said a lot. The video of a post race celebration was bizarre.

[Coral]

I thought it was pretty good...but then I am probably far less critical of these type of programmes than most people. Most of it I knew already of course but I had not heard about Hunt's antics the night before winning the 1976 Canadian GP. He really was something else...

I can't wait to see "Rush" now!

[LittleChris]

Alistair Caldwell was a bit up himself wasn't he ? Mind you wasn't it him & Piquet who tried to wind up an understandably upset Carlos Reutemann the day after the accident to Giovanni Amadeo on the pit lane at Zolder in 1981 ?

[Charlieman]

Alistair Caldwell was a bit up himself wasn't he ?

I understand your interpretation. However, he was speaking in New Zealand English which has different nuances from everywhere else that speaks English.

[RCH]

Yes very good but. . .
why do people write the narrator's script without accepting that English has various forms of past tense? The "talking heads" including Lauda and Audetto working in a second language, all could and did refer to the events of 37 years ago in the past, so what's the scriptwriter think he/she is doing?

This is a concept that turns up all the time, especially on TV News headlines, it really is irritating.

As for the show itself, well I suppose an interesting hour but hasn't it all been said before? I was irritated by the "greatest season ever" type comments, I would think similar programmes could be made for other years, although maybe they would appeal rather less to the casual observer.

Did I really hear Barry Gill say, apparently before the British GP, that Hunt was aiming to be the first Brit to win the BGP since Peter Collins?

[garoidb]

This is a concept that turns up all the time, especially on TV News headlines, it really is irritating.

As for the show itself, well I suppose an interesting hour but hasn't it all been said before? I was irritated by the "greatest season ever" type comments, I would think similar programmes could be made for other years, although maybe they would appeal rather less to the casual observer.

Did I really hear Barry Gill say, apparently before the British GP, that Hunt was aiming to be the first Brit to win the BGP since Peter Collins?

I think he said Englishman.

[Macca]

No, first Englishman since Collins....it had been Scots-dominated since.

Caldwell is just like that, apparently - brash, confident, annoying to some, but a big part of McLaren's success, and especially of the defeats of Ferrari.

It is possible to date a TV documentary by the programme-making style and whatever techniques/clichés were fashionable at the time of its making - in any profession there are a lot of lemmings - but overall it wasn't bad IMHO.

Paul M

[RCH]

I think he said Englishman.

I was wondering Whether that was it, not concentrating enough clearly

[garoidb]

No, first Englishman since Collins....it had been Scots-dominated since.

Caldwell is just like that, apparently - brash, confident, annoying to some, but a big part of McLaren's success, and especially of the defeats of Ferrari.

It is possible to date a TV documentary by the programme-making style and whatever techniques/clichés were fashionable at the time of its making - in any profession there are a lot of lemmings - but overall it wasn't bad IMHO.

Paul M

What I found odd was the expectation that the rules should not apply to his team, whether in terms of car width or the need to be still running at the end of the lap to be eligible for a restart.

Edit: As far as documentary making technique is concerned, the makers did not resort to artificial, reconstructed footage (with blurring sometimes) often used these days in such programmes.

Edited by garoidb, 15 July 2013 - 07:47.

[brabham bt50]

I viewed the old "Clash of the Titans" video recently. The structure was very similar to tonight's programme -- some heads were greyer this evening -- but it's a really good way to tell a story, so I am not knocking the new narration. I don't remember seeing the clip with the German speaking TV presenter talking to Lauda's mother on the phone; the bloke's body language said a lot. The video of a post race celebration was bizarre.

The German speaking TV presenter is Heinz Pruller, author and writer of many, many F1 books ( yearbooks from I think 1974 till now ) and TV commentator
and F1 specialist on ORF ( Austria Television ), I would consider him the Murray Walker of Austria, only Murray Walker started much earlier.

[Gary C]

...also a good friend of Jochen Rindt I seem to remember.

[Arjan de Roos]

Well it brought back quite some memories. And still some new footage. Maybe a repeat of other docs, but good nonetheless. Good to hear all involved. And how fascinating the season was.
There could have been more included, like the years before 1976. Also Niki's race at Monza was shown a bit too short, Niki had started weak, but came back strong overtaking many too finish fourth. A return it was.
Good to see Marlene, Willy Dungl, Pruller, Scaramelli, Cuoghi, Tomaini, Caldwell, Hulme, Gunnar, ....One hour is just too short.

[Tenmantaylor]

The personal rivalry between Hunt and Lauda makes the the season great but it's also fascinating to look back at this from an inter team politics perspective. I was completely unaware of just how much back room politiking there was in the 76 season between McLaren and Ferrari and it really set the tone for the next 40 years, how little some things change!

[JtP1]

The personal rivalry between Hunt and Lauda makes the the season great but it's also fascinating to look back at this from an inter team politics perspective. I was completely unaware of just how much back room politiking there was in the 76 season between McLaren and Ferrari and it really set the tone for the next 40 years, how little some things change!

but how much of the politicing came from Audetto? No wonder Lauda threatened to punch him. No mention of the Ferrari being found illegal in Canada at pre race scrutineering

[MartLgn]

I rather enjoyed it, having not seen 'Clash of the Titans' I wasn't aware of the warmth of feeling between Caldwell and Audetto I supose a Kiwi and an Italian woud never come at anything from the same angle.
Ignoring the 'greatest season ever'premise I thought the naration pitched just right which was a nice change from the current shouty trend.

[ensign14]

This is a concept that turns up all the time, especially on TV News headlines, it really is irritating.

The historic present is probably as old as syntax, it's found in Sanskrit, the New Testament, Cicero...there's a more complex theory that it derives from stative verbs becoming a past tense, but I prefer to see it as a storytelling device that's perfectly grammatical in context.

[kayemod]

The historic present is probably as old as syntax...

Something much favoured by footballers and the Police, though I'm making no elitist assumptions here. "He comes round the corner, he hits the kerb, he loses a wheel and is unable to proceed. So we nab him for stopping on a double-yellow".

[PCC]

Something much favoured by footballers and the Police...

And by Frank McCourt, who used it to great effect in Angela's Ashes. I recall an interview in which he said that the writing of the book only really began to flow after he adopted it. For the reader, it creates the vivid impression that he's reliving the past rather than describing it.

That said, I didn't see the Hunt/Lauda show and have no idea if the technique worked well there.

[RCH]

The historic present is probably as old as syntax, it's found in Sanskrit, the New Testament, Cicero...there's a more complex theory that it derives from stative verbs becoming a past tense, but I prefer to see it as a storytelling device that's perfectly grammatical in context.

Virtually the same answer I got when I complained about the same journalistic device on a completely different subject on a completely different forum. "Perfectly grammatical in context"? Maybe, doesn't stop it being irritating!

[ensign14]

Be thankful then you don't speak Mandarin. They don't have tenses at all. Just occasionally using the verbs "want", "finish" or "cross" at the end of the regular verb to mark aspects of the future, preterite and perfect respectively.

[Allan Lupton]

The historic present is probably as old as syntax, it's found in Sanskrit, the New Testament, Cicero...there's a more complex theory that it derives from stative verbs becoming a past tense, but I prefer to see it as a storytelling device that's perfectly grammatical in context.

Continuing the digression, there are a lot of grammatical idioms that are of great age in a different context but so what? IIRC classical Greek has two forms of verb for plural, used when the subject is two or many and we could do with those in modern English, except that some quite well-spoken folk don't seem to accept that "both" can only apply to two.
Shakespeare used "between you and I" but that doesn't make it correct and perhaps he used it to signal that the character concerned was ill-educated!
What you refer to as the historic present always reminds me of West Indian patois or New Guinea pidgin neither of which seem to have any past tense.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 16 July 2013 - 08:17.

[ensign14]

Continuing the digression, there are a lot of grammatical idioms that are of great age in a different context but so what? IIRC classical Greek has two forms of verb for plural, used when the subject is two or many and we could do with those in modern English, except that some quite well-spoken folk don't seem to accept that "both" can only apply to two.

Technically the dual is not a plural - it's a separate sense of number. It's also quick to vanish; it was already vestigial in ancient Greek but was prevalent in earlier languages (the word "ambo" in Latin is about the only remnant of it there).

Incidentally, the two Indo-European Tocharian languages have two forms of doubling; the dual, where you have two of something; and the paral, where you have two of something that normally occur in twos. So "eyes" would have different forms if you were talking about two human eyes compared with a sheep's and cow's.

But the historic present is probably an oral storytelling device to add urgency, which has been retained in a literate age in which one cannot emphasize without using bold or underlining. Moving to the present makes matters more vivid. Puts you in the time and place. There's no reason why it's language-dependent.

(While we are on that subject, the double negative as emphatic is found pretty much everywhere in Indo-European languages, including old English...)

[Tim Murray]

There’s another storytelling device that (to me anyway) is fine when used once in a while for effect, but grates when used too often – the use of the word ‘would’ to relate past events, as in an article on Mercedes W196 history on this page:

Here’s a random paragraph:

In practice [for the 1955 Argentine GP], both would prove insurmountable for Fangio. Around the 2.42 mile Autodromo 17 de Octubre, Gonzalez would prove fastest recording a time of 1:43.1. At the wheel of the D50 Lancia, Ascari would also out-qualify Fangio. Ascari's time of 1:43.6 would be a mere half a second slower than Gonzalez and good enough to start 2nd on the grid. Fangio would miss out on 2nd on the grid by mere hundredths of a second. Still, one of the Mercedes would be found on the front row as the final spot on the front row would go to Jean Behra driving a Maserati.

Edited by Tim Murray, 16 July 2013 - 09:06.

[Arjan de Roos]

I rather enjoyed it, having not seen 'Clash of the Titans' I wasn't aware of the warmth of feeling between Caldwell and Audetto I supose a Kiwi and an Italian woud never come at anything from the same angle.
Ignoring the 'greatest season ever'premise I thought the naration pitched just right which was a nice change from the current shouty trend.

Same for the warmth between the Italian and a certain Austrian...

but how much of the politicing came from Audetto? No wonder Lauda threatened to punch him. No mention of the Ferrari being found illegal in Canada at pre race scrutineering

Mr. Audetto was under extreme pressure. Not only did he have to follow in the steps of Luca, be go between for Ferrari, talk to the press, withstand the non-Ferrari pressure, he also had to cooperate with the Lauda-Rega-Forghieri party.

I particularly liked the entry of Niki through the crowd at Monza. It could be a potential scene in a movie....

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 16 July 2013 - 09:19.

[Arjan de Roos]

...., but a big part of McLaren's success, and especially of the defeats of Ferrari.

Paul M

Which he celebrates today:
Love 4 Ferrari

[JtP1]

Same for the warmth between the Italian and a certain Austrian...


Mr. Audetto was under extreme pressure. Not only did he have to follow in the steps of Luca, be go between for Ferrari, talk to the press, withstand the non-Ferrari pressure, he also had to cooperate with the Lauda-Rega-Forghieri party.

I particularly liked the entry of Niki through the crowd at Monza. It could be a potential scene in a movie....

Audetto was under the pressure that he chose, "if you don't like the heat etc". From his comments on film, which apear to be said years later, he is probably off his trolley. The best comment is his raving about Hunt restarting at Brands and how terrible it was all this cheating, while just putting Regga in the sparevFerrari for the restart. At least the Ferrari team member who had to actually in the protest was at least honest about it.

[P.Dron]

When I arrived at Lamborghini's Sant'Agata factory in July 1986 to test a Countach 5000 Quattrovalvole, I parked, entered the gatehouse and said that I had an appointment with Mr Audetto. I was on time and I was made to wait for 45 minutes.

Then Audetto arrived. "Ah, Peter," he said, "what you doing here today? We expect you next week..."

I showed him a sheaf of faxes with that day's date mentioned, with his name on them.

After that I understood that everything Mr Audetto said should be divided by three.

[chr1s]

but how much of the politicing came from Audetto? No wonder Lauda threatened to punch him.

I always thought it was Roberto Nosetto that Lauda threatend to punch?

[bathceltic]

Slightly off thread. in these programmes on Hunt footage of him hitting the Canadian marshal is quite common and the hunt sheene documentary has 2 seconds of the crash with Mass on it about 3.45 minutes in. Does anybody know an arcive film that would have the punch, the crash and a bit more of the race. I was only 7 at the time but have memories of my older brothers watching the incident. From what I know the race was not televised as such.
I am sure the 'punch' has been discussed else where but here are three very varying articles on the poor (or not so poor according to one of the articles) victim-the marshal.
http://www.roadandtr...s-mosport-punch
http://thegarageblog...
http://www.motorspor...hunt-the-punch/

Edited by bathceltic, 25 July 2013 - 21:05.

[mfd]

archive film of the race

[bathceltic]

Cheers, the afava reviews were good but no punch or crash with Mass. Brunswick didn't cover it, so I wonder what archive reviews the punch clip and crash clip come from?