310 replies to this topic

[SamH123]

I think a thread for this is fair? Sorry mods if not

That poor guy got crunched by a tyre moving at about 35mph+, I'm surprised we've not heard worse
Apparantly he is just bruised (but I heard somewhat positive news at one point after both Simonsen & Canada marshall). but please post any updates here, I'm still a bit worried about him

EDIT: Will Buxton ‏@willbuxton 2m
FOM Caneraman has broken shoulder and cracked ribs. Otherwise OK. I’ve worked with the amazing FOM boys for 4 years. Cracking lads.

Sounds alright, good thing it missed his head

Edited by SamH123, 07 July 2013 - 14:34.

[Fourjays]

I'm wondering if they need to look at a way to slow down the pit stops slightly. Just take the urgency off them for these tiny margins. When we first stopped refueling the tyre-only pit stops were quick, but relatively safe. But now the teams are pushing the limits more and more as they seek the tiniest of margins and it seems to be leading to more errors, from unsafe releases to tyres not attaching properly.

Maybe mandate a standard wheel nut... I think the increase of problems begun with the fancy wheel nuts teams introduced last year(?).

Edited by Fourjays, 07 July 2013 - 14:13.

[MikeTekRacing]

Maybe mandate a standard wheel nut... I think the increase of problems begun with the fancy wheel nuts teams introduced last year(?).

I don't like this standard mandated road. this is not f1

[Ross Stonefeld]

How about not having so many people in the pitlane?

[karne]

It looked to me at first glance like maybe the camera took a great deal of the impact. If that's the case, the camera probably saved his life.

[olliek88]

After last weekends well publicised safety issues we had two pretty serious near misses, firstly with Bianchi's car rolling backwards on to a 190mph+ section of the circuit then Red Bull's "slightly" unsafe release of Mark Webber resulting in a camera man being struck by a tyre, thankfully he appears to be ok but it could easily of been very serious.

There has been changes to staff who would be involved in the safety aspect of F1 (new FIA Medcial delegate and new FIA Doctor) since Jean Todt came into power, maybe things are becoming a little blasé around certain aspects of safety, at least this is what Gary Hartstein has mentioned recently. Most notably when the FIA did nothing after it became apparent it was no longer possible to extract the Ferrari driver's seat from their car at the end of last year.

Edited by olliek88, 07 July 2013 - 14:21.

[redreni]

After last weekends well publicised safety issues we had two pretty serious near misses, firstly with Bianchi's car rolling backwards on to a 190mph+ section of the circuit then Red Bull's "slightly" unsafe release of Mark Webber resulting in a camera man being struck by a tyre, thankfully he appears to be ok but it could easily of been very serious.

There has been changes to staff who would be involved in the safety aspect of F1 (new FIA Medcial delegate and new FIA Doctor) since Jean Todt came into power, maybe things are becoming a little blasé around certain aspects of safety, at least this is what Gary Hartstein has mentioned recently. Most notably when the FIA did nothing after it became apparent it was no longer possible to extract the Ferrari driver's seat from their car at the end of last year.

These things can happen and could have happened under Mosley too. But what worries me is when changes to the tyre construction were needed, the FIA was unwilling to use its powers to impose changes and allowed the teams to block the changes. When it comes to safety, Jean Todt's horizontal, do-nothing attitude doesn't work. Sometimes you have to upset people to get safety related measures through. Mosley didn't mind doing that, and his record on safety improvements from 1994 onwards was exemplary.

[Andrew Hope]

Eh, I think it's just a few strange and unlikely incidents happening in a short space of time, and no more serious conclusions should be reached than the reverse situation, if we all decided F1 was awesomely super-safe if we went a few months without seeing anything remotely dangerous happening.

I imagine there would have been hell to pay if that cameraman had died, though who exactly would be paying it is up for discussion.

[Sakae]

I am not sure how did you managed JT include in RBR' mistake, but whatever. How often RBR released a driver with incorrectly attached wheel - compare it with McLaren? I hope that you know that under JT' leadership he is slowing cars down. For example next year pit lane speed will go down, etc. Check the facts, just as I am not sure you can hang Pirellis on his neck.

Edited by Sakae, 07 July 2013 - 14:30.

[John Player]

F1 has been flirting with death for some time now.

[Kalmake]

Teams have requested lower speed limit on pit lane after there was an accident in a different series. They are getting 80km/h next year.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't think today's incidents were anything to get over-excited about. We very rarely see cars leaving the pits without tyres correctly fitted, and it was more of a mistake from the Red Bull lollipop guy than anything else. Should there have been a cameraman in the pitlane? As the Crofty and Brundle said the number of people allowed in the pitlane is drastically reduced from what it used to be and FOM pitlane cameramen are the only one's allowed there.

As for the Marussia, it was very odd and I'd like to know why the car started moving. It wasn't rolling back immediately, so it suggests that it went into neutral at some point after Bianchi got out. I assume he left it in gear so that it wouldn't roll as he got out. Was it a marshalling error?

[Sakae]

Most dangerous element IMO what I noticed this year was underdeveloped tire, but background of it cannot be hanged on FiA alone. Generally I think races are slowing down. (Haven't checked stats, but that's my perception).

[PayasYouRace]

Standard wheel nuts might be a sensible idea. Afterall, I don't think anyone complained about the refuelling rigs being standard (apart from when Benetton tampered with theirs).

I think it hit him in the back, but if it did his higher the camera might have helped save him. All pit crews must wear helmets. The FOM cameramen are the only other people allowed to loiter in the pitlane by the looks of it. Maybe they should have helmets too.

[olliek88]

I am not sure how did you managed JT include in RBR' mistake, but whatever. How often RBR released a driver with incorrectly attached wheel - compare it with McLaren? I hope that you know that under JT' leadership he is slowing cars down. For example next year pit lane speed will go down, etc. Check the facts, just as I am not sure you can hang Pirellis on his neck.

Not RBR's mistake, but the consequences of it.

The number of non essential people (non pit crew) in the pitlane is pretty high, could/should that be reduced? The processes in place during a pitstop when a tyre isn't fitted, that's been a continual issue for years, is it possible, with F1 cars having starter motors onboard from next year, to stipulate that the engine must be stopped during a pitstop and can only be re started once the stop is complete? Surely that'd reduce the risk of things like that occurring?

I'm just hypothesising.

[np93]

After last weekends well publicised safety issues we had two pretty serious near misses, firstly with Bianchi's car rolling backwards on to a 190mph+ section of the circuit then Red Bull's "slightly" unsafe release of Mark Webber resulting in a camera man being struck by a tyre, thankfully he appears to be ok but it could easily of been very serious.

There has been changes to staff who would be involved in the safety aspect of F1 (new FIA Medcial delegate and new FIA Doctor) since Jean Todt came into power, maybe things are becoming a little blasé around certain aspects of safety, at least this is what Gary Hartstein has mentioned recently. Most notably when the FIA did nothing after it became apparent it was no longer possible to extract the Ferrari driver's seat from their car at the end of last year.

Really? That's pretty damn serious, what was the FIA's reasoning for not correcting this?

[PayasYouRace]

The number of non essential people (non pit crew) in the pitlane is pretty high, could/should that be reduced?

I don't think that's true. Apart from pitcrews I haven't seen anyone other than FOM cameramen in the pitlane. Team officials are allowed to cross the pitwall, but they aren't allowed to hang around the pitlane AFAIK.

[Sakae]

Teams have requested lower speed limit on pit lane after there was an accident in a different series. They are getting 80km/h next year.

Thanks, could be, but here again, sign of things slowing down, and without too much of noise.

[SpaMaster]

Yes this pit release thing has become too casual. The pit-stop mechanics think drivers would have an eye out and the drivers do funny stuff coming out of their box.

[AlexS]

Besides the tires issues, which are dangerous and FIA and the socialists of resources restriction have all fault to not let Pirelli make tests with all teams on track. This two cases is just mistakes that happens with racing. Not all mistakes and issues are fixable.

[artista]

Hope he will be okay. It was scary.

[olliek88]

Really? That's pretty damn serious, what was the FIA's reasoning for not correcting this?

Don't know, Gary Hartstein mentioned it a while ago on twitter, doesn't know if it has been corrected for this year though.

[BenF12012]

Pit-lane accident video -

FIA - Yes FOM cameraman Briton Paul Allen is conscious

[olliek88]

I don't think that's true. Apart from pitcrews I haven't seen anyone other than FOM cameramen in the pitlane. Team officials are allowed to cross the pitwall, but they aren't allowed to hang around the pitlane AFAIK.

Ah, fair do's. Perhaps having camera men stood in the pit lane is something to be looked at, since they're not able to see entirely whats going on and take avoiding action, like the (Merc, i think) mechanics did today.

[redreni]

I am not sure how did you managed JT include in RBR' mistake, but whatever. How often RBR released a driver with incorrectly attached wheel - compare it with McLaren? I hope that you know that under JT' leadership he is slowing cars down. For example next year pit lane speed will go down, etc. Check the facts, just as I am not sure you can hang Pirellis on his neck.

The WMSC recently mandated head protection for pit crew. If nothing else this incident points up the obvious, that head protection should be worn by everyone or no-one who works in the inner lane of the pits; cameramen, TV reporters, VIPs etc have skulls just as fragile as mechanics. You can't go onto any building site in the UK without a hard hat, whether you're working or not. The risk of being hit by something in an F1 pit lane is arguably greater.

My point about Todt is that he doesn't want to upset anyone. He will allow things to go through if other people want or suggest them - e.g. the mechanics lobbied the teams for a reduction in the pitlane after some of their colleagues in other categories got injured, the teams proposed it, Todt was happy to do it. That's fine. What Todt doesn't do is push things through that the teams might not ask for or want, like stronger tyres for exampe (and I don't blame Todt completely for that because Pirelli were not helping matters by denying there was a safety issue, but Todt allowed them to get away with it). It's Todt's job to drive forward improvements to F1 safety, and to react positively and proactively and decisively when there are problems. I'm not satisfied that he does that.

[Sakae]

Perhaps one day FiA, under pressure from teams, might impose bottom holding limit on the car in stationary position. This drive for 2+sec stop-over just invite mistakes, and what's the hurry, if everyone who stops perhaps has to remain there at least 3 sec?

Edited by Sakae, 07 July 2013 - 15:01.

[np93]

Don't know, Gary Hartstein mentioned it a while ago on twitter, doesn't know if it has been corrected for this year though.

I hope so, I mean the reason it's removable is in case of serious injuries to the driver, and not having that facility is negligent. That's how they got Massa out of the car at Hungary 2009 if I remember correctly? I can't even think of a reason that would be taken out.

[SamH123]

Pit-lane accident video -

FIA - Yes FOM cameraman Briton Paul Allen is conscious

watching it again, it looks even worse. It almost does hit his head I think but I can't tell where his camera was

[Cool Beans]

A sensor on the rim that lights up a led in the cockpit when all wheels are properly attached?

[Zoetrope]

How about not having so many people in the pitlane?

Pit lane although not technically, basically is part of a race track. Very sensible words from Ted Kravitz on Sky - mandatory helmets for camera men.

And I don't want pit-stops to be artificially slowed down - it's a part of a game too.

[olliek88]

I hope so, I mean the reason it's removable is in case of serious injuries to the driver, and not having that facility is negligent. That's how they got Massa out of the car at Hungary 2009 if I remember correctly? I can't even think of a reason that would be taken out.

He did say its not really life or death as they only remove the driver in the seat when its not life threatening, since keeping their back etc stable is pointless if they are about to bleed to death or something, all about what's the priority at the time.

[alfa1]

at least this is what Gary Hartstein has mentioned recently

For me, thats a big issue in itself.

Replacing a medical man with many years of experience of motor racing experience, both junior and F1. Replacing a man who trained with Sid Watkins for years.
Replacing this man as _the_ Formula driver driver safety expert... with somebody who had never been to a motor racing event of any kind in their entire life.

For political reasons.

Read more here...
And an interview on youtube.

Edited by alfa1, 07 July 2013 - 15:15.

[billm99uk]

Pit lane although not technically, basically is part of a race track. Very sensible words from Ted Kravitz on Sky - mandatory helmets for camera men.

And I don't want pit-stops to be artificially slowed down - it's a part of a game too.

Stupid question possibly, but can you use one of those large cameras with a crash helmet on? I guess there's some reason why they don't? Unless it's just more comfortable without one?

[np93]

He did say its not really life or death as they only remove the driver in the seat when its not life threatening, since keeping their back etc stable is pointless if they are about to bleed to death or something, all about what's the priority at the time.

True, but still, in the event of an incident like say Vergne at Monza last year, had that been at higher speed/more sever there may have been spinal damage, and that type of incident could happen to anyone. I agree that it's not massively serious, but it's there for safety. If it's in the regulations, it should also be adhered to.

[np93]

Re the seat removal, article 18.4.3 states : 'The seat must be removable without the need to cut or remove any of the seat belts.'

[Vic Vega]

So safe that you're allowed to drive PB lap under SC... Just don't get caught driving a PB sector time under yellow flag.

Edited by Vic Vega, 07 July 2013 - 15:25.

[olliek88]

So safe that you're allowed to drive PB lap under SC... Just don't get caught driving a PB sector time under yellow flag.

I posed that very question on twitter and they only allow lapped cars to unlap themselves once all the incidents have been cleared and their isn't a danger/hazard any more, so its not really any different to driving around a circuit in normal racing conditions, i know where you're coming from though, had the exact same thought looking at the live timing during the race.

[redreni]

In GT racing where they do driver changes at pitstops, they wanted to take the urgency out of the driver change itself to make sure the new driver's seatbelts would be fasened properly and not rushed, so they normally either have a minimum pit stop time, or (in FIA GT) they make the crews change the tyres consecutively rather than concurrently, with only two crewmen working on the tyre change, so that the wheel changes will be the limiting factor, no the seatbelts.

In F1 the wheel change is the whole point of the stop and will always be the limiting factor in stop speed. It doesn't seem very F1 to introduce a minimum stop time as that would take the competitive element away from stops. Maybe a mandatory indicator light in the cockpit so the driver will know when all his wheels are on would be a good idea?

Apart from that it's just a case of making sure everyone in the pitlane wears the right gear. And making sure that if cameramen are going to turn away from the direction of traffic while working, they have a mate watching their back, like when the BBC cameramen have to walk backwards to film Eddie Jordan and Susie Perry walking forwards and talking, they have a mate behind them guiding them. And making sure the teams know that an unsafe release will be penalised properly, and they won't get a joke penalty that is then rendered pointless by the next safety car period, at which they are give a whole lap of an unfair advantage for no justifiable sporting reason.

[PayasYouRace]

I actually thought of this incident when it happened.

Actually quite amazing how many people they allowed in the pitlane back then, and not a helmet in sight.

[ThadGreen]

How about not having so many people in the pitlane?

I agree, keep the camera men out of the pits during the race, that way we won't have to tolerate the shots of the pit wall and the crew while the race is being run.

I am glad to hear that he, the camera man, is ok.

[SamH123]

Stupid question possibly, but can you use one of those large cameras with a crash helmet on? I guess there's some reason why they don't? Unless it's just more comfortable without one?

Not a stupid question at all, it would be a nuisance. Some DSLRs have no live view on the lcd so looking through the viewfinder with a helmet on would be very clumsy
I imagine the camera guys would not be keen at all

[artista]

Tobias Grüner F1 @tgruener

#F1 According to AMuS information TV cameraman suffered from two broken ribs, a dislocated shoulder and a severe concussion.

[Clatter]

Teams have requested lower speed limit on pit lane after there was an accident in a different series. They are getting 80km/h next year.

Why wait? It would cost nothing to implement now.

[whitewaterMkII]

How about not having so many people in the pitlane?

How about doing your job and not releasing a car w/o tyres on it?

[Sakae]

I do not favor changing of rules in mid-season. If you do it for one issue, then comes another, and where it ends? At some point someone gets shafted, because of process machinations.

[Clatter]

I do not favor changing of rules in mid-season. If you do it for one issue, then comes another, and where it ends? At some point someone gets shafted, because of process machinations.

It's a change of rule that would affect every single team equally. No change required to any equipment. It's not the same as banning a piece of technology. And most importantly if it's a change that is being made for safety reasons then it should be made now.

[sesku]

Cameraman at Le Mans 24H wear fire proof suit and bicycle helmet if I'm not mistaken. F1 can take notes from them.

[Ross Stonefeld]

How about doing your job and not releasing a car w/o tyres on it?

That too, but I still don't like the 'open to anyone' pitlanes in Europe. We dont let camera people on an active race track in North America.

[whitewaterMkII]

That too, but I still don't like the 'open to anyone' pitlanes in Europe. We dont let camera people on an active race track in North America.

Agreed on the hot pit access, but seriously, this is like the umpteenth time the pit crew fvcked up and lets a car go in F-1.
F-1 for all their talk of safety has the worst pit crews in racing. These guys are constantly getting run over, banged into or flat out failing.
Wanna be safe F-1? Watch a NASCAR or Indycar race and learn something about pit control. Completely anal on who gets in the paddock, but no problem w/ a clusterfvck during the race on pitlane.

[7MGTEsup]

Agreed on the hot pit access, but seriously, this is like the umpteenth time the pit crew fvcked up and lets a car go in F-1.
F-1 for all their talk of safety has the worst pit crews in racing. These guys are constantly getting run over, banged into or flat out failing.
Wanna be safe F-1? Watch a NASCAR or Indycar race and learn something about pit control. Completely anal on who gets in the paddock, but no problem w/ a clusterfvck during the race on pitlane.

When was the last 2.5 second pit stop in NASCAR or Indycar? Formula 1 races are won and lost in the pits by mere tenths of a second.