75 replies to this topic

[BillBald]

On the way to the grid, Mark's RE said:
'At the start if you get wheel slip hold the throttle.'

What could that possibly mean?

The only explanation I can think of, is that the RE was saying that Mark didn't need to back off the throttle in response to wheelspin, because their launch control would take care of it.

And then Webber made the best start he's made since...ever, really.

There's been surprising little comment.

[SpaMaster]

I didn't make much of it. I thought Vettel got a fantastic start as well. At that time it looked like his race engineer was just trying to spoon-feed whatever help possible for the horrible starter Webber is. He is hopeless really. So anything from his engineer helps.

[Mtom]

On the way to the grid, Mark's RE said:
'At the start if you get wheel slip hold the throttle.'

What could that possibly mean?

The only explanation I can think of, is that the RE was saying that Mark didn't need to back off the throttle in response to wheelspin, because their launch control would take care of it.

And then Webber made the best start he's made since...ever, really.

There's been surprising little comment.

You asking if it was some kind of traction control?

[BillBald]

You asking if it was some kind of traction control?

I can't see what else it could be. In the absence of traction control, the driver's instinct is to lift off the throttle when the wheels are slipping. And surely that's the right reaction, unless you have traction control.

[TheThirdTenor1]

On the way to the grid, Mark's RE said:
'At the start if you get wheel slip hold the throttle.'

What could that possibly mean?

The only explanation I can think of, is that the RE was saying that Mark didn't need to back off the throttle in response to wheelspin, because their launch control would take care of it.

And then Webber made the best start he's made since...ever, really.

There's been surprising little comment.

So you think Red Bull have illegal launch control?

[handel]

It's a fair enough thing to bring up. I mean stop asking posters what they think and tell us why you think he could have got that advice? If you get wheelspin, surely you modulate the power? Any racers here to confirm?

At those speeds you wouldn't have thought aero, even anything dodgily blown would produce anything to help.

[handel]

Also the fact that Mark said he thought Seb was trying the same thing... well it's either a technique or something v smart.

[apoka]

I think after they saw a forum thread in here accusing them of using traction control, they picked up the idea and actually added it to their car.

[Sin]

maybe it was just an error Mark commonly made... so they told him what to do instead

[Deerfield]

BillBald could you provide us some more details? When do you heard that phrase? Howewer I find strange an engineer needs to remember his driver something so obvious, risking to reveal a cheat so enormous like TC

[Nigol]

I think Mark lifted off the throttle too much when he got wheelspin. Then your rpm drops too low and you're screwed. A little wheelspin is way better.

[Mtom]

BillBald could you provide us some more details? When do you heard that phrase? Howewer I find strange an engineer needs to remember his driver something so obvious, risking to reveal a cheat so enormous like TC

I heard it too, it was played before the start. Thats true if a driver got wheelspin he modulates the power. It sounds like a really weird advice to hold the throttle...

[st99]

Of course they have an illegal launch control and TC and they talk about it on the radio so everyone can listen it

Seriously does anyone think that if it was something dodgy they would talk so freely about it on the radio? Mark's RE just told him what he often does badly to help him at the start.

Edited by st99, 11 July 2013 - 21:13.

[Rybo]

I heard it too, it was played before the start. Thats true if a driver got wheelspin he modulates the power. It sounds like a really weird advice to hold the throttle...

Keep in mind they aren't at full throttle during the launch. Eventually the tires will regain grip, and it's not unusual to hold the throttle instead of backing off. Although that's mostly done with low torque cars...

[BillBald]

I think Mark lifted off the throttle too much when he got wheelspin. Then your rpm drops too low and you're screwed. A little wheelspin is way better.

I've always understood that, as long as you don't cause the anti-stall to kick in, the lower the revs the better.

I think Rubens used to take a risk with very low revs, he either had a disastrous start or an absolute blinder where he would gain a few places. Mark has the disastrous starts but never the really good ones.

[BillBald]

It's a fair enough thing to bring up. I mean stop asking posters what they think and tell us why you think he could have got that advice? If you get wheelspin, surely you modulate the power? Any racers here to confirm?

At those speeds you wouldn't have thought aero, even anything dodgily blown would produce anything to help.

Why would I stop asking posters what they think?

I haven't made up my mind about this.

Of course they have an illegal launch control and TC and they talk about it on the radio so everyone can listen it

Seriously does anyone think that if it was something dodgy they would talk so freely about it on the radio? Mark's RE just told him what he often does badly to help him at the start.

Maybe the RE thought that no-one would put 2 and 2 together? Maybe Red Bull have a system which they are sure is undetectable?
Or maybe as you say he was just correcting Mark's technique.

[baddog]

The engineer did say it, and it is a very strange thing to say given the ban on launch controls.. unless 'hold the throttle' means ease off it rather than plant it.

[Briz]

Radio incident involving car number 2 will be investigated after the race in the forum

[tremolo]

I heard it too, it was played before the start. Thats true if a driver got wheelspin he modulates the power. It sounds like a really weird advice to hold the throttle...

Or maybe Red Bull compete in Formula One, which means they happen to have a team of engineers who have calculated that, due to track temp/engine map/tyre temp/gearing/diff settings/any number of variables, it is faster to power through wheelspin at this particular track, in these conditions, rather than backing off as may normally be the case.

[st99]

Maybe the RE thought that no-one would put 2 and 2 together? Maybe Red Bull have a system which they are sure is undetectable?
Or maybe as you say he was just correcting Mark's technique.

Really? They just think no one would suspect anything? Every team knows what the other teams say over the radio, don't you think that if they thought RB had said something suspicious they would had reported it to the FIA?

And don't you think that if RB had launch control or whatever Webber wouldn't make so many disastrous starts? Just last race in Silverstone he went from 4th to 14th or something like that, what a crappy launch start is that, isn't it?

Edited by st99, 12 July 2013 - 00:02.

[BillBald]

Really? They just think no one would suspect anything? Every team knows what the other teams say over the radio, don't you think that if they thought RB had said something suspicious they would had reported it to the FIA?

And don't you think that if RB had launch control or whatever Webber wouldn't make so many disastrous starts? Just last race in Silverstone he went from 4th to 14th or something like that, what a crappy launch start is that, isn't it?

My thought was that they could have introduced a new system for Germany, which would be why the RE felt it was necessary to give Webber a reminder.

Or alternatively, Mark had the new system at Silverstone, but tried to modulate the throttle using his right foot, and caused the problem in that way. In the same way as when you have ABS on your car, you shouldn't pump the brake pedal yourself. So the RE was saying not to do that again.

And the RE could have made a mistake in saying as much as he did, people do make mistakes.

I'm not saying they do have such a system, I haven't seen any totally convincing argument either way.

[EthanM]

stupid thread is stupid. All electronics are controlled by the SECU. All engine maps are cleared by the FIA and not changeable. You can't hide launch, traction, abs, whatever else you dream up anywhere.

[BillBald]

Or maybe Red Bull compete in Formula One, which means they happen to have a team of engineers who have calculated that, due to track temp/engine map/tyre temp/gearing/diff settings/any number of variables, it is faster to power through wheelspin at this particular track, in these conditions, rather than backing off as may normally be the case.

Good point

[BillBald]

stupid thread is stupid. All electronics are controlled by the SECU. All engine maps are cleared by the FIA and not changeable. You can't hide launch, traction, abs, whatever else you dream up anywhere.

The thing is, Red Bull have always been very good at making fools of the FIA.

Otherwise I would readily concede your point.

[Kingshark]

Radio incident involving car number 2 will be investigated after the race in the forum

Nevertheless, on a more serious note, it wouldn't surprise me the least. Red Bull have a history of hiding illegal gadgets within their car, more so than any other team. Along with that, telling your driver to keep pressing the throttle even if he has a lot of wheelspin is very strange.

There's no official evidence, but it's possible.

[st99]

My thought was that they could have introduced a new system for Germany, which would be why the RE felt it was necessary to give Webber a reminder.

Or alternatively, Mark had the new system at Silverstone, but tried to modulate the throttle using his right foot, and caused the problem in that way. In the same way as when you have ABS on your car, you shouldn't pump the brake pedal yourself. So the RE was saying not to do that again.

And the RE could have made a mistake in saying as much as he did, people do make mistakes.

I'm not saying they do have such a system, I haven't seen any totally convincing argument either way.

If they had a new system why Vettel's starts didn't change, since he's a good starter and supposedly had launch control he should fly off the line like Massa does for example (and I'm not saying Ferrari has launch control) or did they only change Webber's system so he doesn't lose so many positions at the start?

We don't even know what that message meant... it could even be a coded message for something totally different...

Edited by st99, 12 July 2013 - 00:57.

[lbennie]

Wow, it must be Red Bull cheating again.

won't somebody think of the children?

[Kelateboy]

Any software to be used with the McLaren supplied SECU must be cleared and approved by the FIA. If there is a launch control hidden in the code, it could easily be detected.

It was not like before the introduction of SECU where the ECU source code had 1-2 million lines.

[Raelene]

Radio incident involving car number 2 will be investigated after the race in the forum

[rasul]

Considering Mark's horrible starts, someone suspects RB of having a launch control? Lol. If there's a team with suspiciously regular great starts, it's Ferrari and Massa.

[Brother Fox]

If Webbers car has launch control then no one will protest it, becuase its the shittiest launch control ever and is worth 1-3 places for the other front running teams

[fabr68]

"Hold the throttle during wheel spin"

"Keep the steering wheel straight during the chicanes"

"Lift off the brake pedal on the brake zone"

yes, driver aids are totally banned from Formula 1

[seahawk]

Probably more a thing with the tires. They probably regain their grip if you hold the throttle, so in the end it is faster than lifting.

[FPV GTHO]

Keep in mind they aren't at full throttle during the launch. Eventually the tires will regain grip, and it's not unusual to hold the throttle instead of backing off. Although that's mostly done with low torque cars...

Well that's pretty much what the V8 era cars are. I'd be surprised if they made over 300nm torue peak. Unlike power, it's EXTREMELY hard to make a heap of extra torque in relation to displacement when naturally aspirated.

[jeremy durward]

Holding the throttle through wheelspin is a perfectly normal thing, I do this all the time when hillclimbing. Backing off too much will just result in it bogging down where as keeping the wheels spinning a bit will lose you very little if any time as long as it's not too bad. Keep in mind I'm not talking about flooring it. As the road speed increases with constant throttle the wheelspin will decrease.

[Nigol]

I've always understood that, as long as you don't cause the anti-stall to kick in, the lower the revs the better.

I think Rubens used to take a risk with very low revs, he either had a disastrous start or an absolute blinder where he would gain a few places. Mark has the disastrous starts but never the really good ones.

Nah. In F1 you have way more power the higher the revs are. So once you can go full throttle (that doesn't take too much time in F1) you want your revs to be as high as possible.

Holding the throttle through wheelspin is a perfectly normal thing, I do this all the time when hillclimbing. Backing off too much will just result in it bogging down where as keeping the wheels spinning a bit will lose you very little if any time as long as it's not too bad. Keep in mind I'm not talking about flooring it. As the road speed increases with constant throttle the wheelspin will decrease.

Edited by Nigol, 12 July 2013 - 07:26.

[Scotracer]

That's a very normal way to launch a car. Perhaps Mark was worried about over-slipping the tyres so if he got wheelspin off the line he would back off, which would regain the tyre grip but lose you quite a bit of time. The engineers probably saw on Seb's car that you can get away with it.

[johnmhinds]

If this has always been the reason Mark has had poor starts then it's pretty odd that it has taken until the end of his F1 career for him to work out that powering through a bit of wheel spin is better than lifting off to correct it.

[Baddoer]

His start was unusually good in Nurb, very strange

[handel]

If this has always been the reason Mark has had poor starts then it's pretty odd that it has taken until the end of his F1 career for him to work out that powering through a bit of wheel spin is better than lifting off to correct it.

Yeah odd. It's frustrating me but I'm sure I heard Webber say both he and Seb were trying something different at the start - that's what I find really interesting - like they were both changing their technique rather than Mark just changing to match Seb.

[EvanRainer]

Nevertheless, on a more serious note, it wouldn't surprise me the least. Red Bull have a history of hiding illegal gadgets within their car, more so than any other team. Along with that, telling your driver to keep pressing the throttle even if he has a lot of wheelspin is very strange.

There's no official evidence, but it's possible.

Why don't learn a thing or two about how cars work before telling us how many "gadgets" Red Bull has had on their car. Fell free to list them btw.

If you meant "Red Bull hs a history of being accused for non existent infractions by butt hurt fanboys" then sure.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

I think Mark lifted off the throttle too much when he got wheelspin. Then your rpm drops too low and you're screwed. A little wheelspin is way better.

This. A sudden application of power and the wheels will spin too much and you'll lose ground. A 'constant' holding of the revs should eliminate that.

Look at the launch control of road cars; they are optimised at around 4000rpm (Nissan GTR, Ferrari 458 etc) so the engine is at it's most optimum.

I'm not suggesting MW's car has traction control but a 'manual' input - ie holding the revs at a set RPM - could eliminate Webber's bad starts.

I'm just surprised it has taken them so long to get it right with Webber unless they've suddenly introduced a new engine map that only works at the start of the race.

[metz]

stupid thread is stupid. All electronics are controlled by the SECU. All engine maps are cleared by the FIA and not changeable. You can't hide launch, traction, abs, whatever else you dream up anywhere.

This.
With FIA controlled SECU, it can't be done.

[NotAPineapple]

OK I've read some of the last 2 pages full of the usual RB are cheating crap with handwavy arguments and nothing to back it up...

The likely reason for this is that Mark had a "constant power throttle map". This was detailed by a Renault release earlier this year:

Renault Pedal Mapping#

Whether this was something new for the last race who knows. The concept is basically, each pedal position corresponds to a constant power demand from the engine. As opposed to a constant torque pedal map where each pedal position corresponds to a constant torque demand from the engine.

With a constant power pedal map, if you hold the pedal constant and the engine speed increases (due to wheelspin) the ECU will reduce the engine torque to keep the power constant. Basically doing something like a crude pseudo TC but it is absolutely NOT a TC because its open loop. Additionally, this is not a Red Bull only setup. All the teams have this possibility and its firmly within the rules.

Obviously, if you reduce the throttle after wheel spin start with such a map, you have a double reduction in torque. One component coming from the ECU torque controller the other coming from the drivers reduction in power demand. This is likely to bog the engine down.

My guess is that he switched to this type of pedal map after Silverstone because after driving his whole life through karts, formula ford to F1 etc etc, he has possibly, never driven a car where you need to hold the pedal steady to counteract wheel spin.

Anyway, its only my 2cents and I'm happy to discuss the technical aspects of this but I'd sincerely like to see a lot less of the ZOMGG Red Bull must be cheating!!!111oneoeone (or Ferrari, or McLaren or whoever) without having any technical facts to back it up. These cars are not complicated. In fact they are simpler than most of the new cars on the road today due to the restrictive regulations. They obey the laws of physics and in my experience a lot of what you see on the track can be explained with high school level physics.

Not a Pineapple

[DS27]

These cars are not complicated.

I'm not going to disagree with the general sentiment of your post but to most people, F1 cars are very complicated. I know what you're getting at but a car that needs multiple laptops and software programmes even to start cannot be described as simple.

[NotAPineapple]

Fair enough, there is a lot of complicated detail in the engineering but when the car is on the track, 95% of what it does can be explained in very simple terms.

There are no complications like TC, active suspension, active aero (ok DRS whatever..) torque vectoring diffs, magnetorheological dampers, active ride control, ABS, EBD, ESP, I could go on forever...

Half of these things you can get in a bog standard Ford Mondeo

[HoldenRT]

I didn't make much of it. I thought Vettel got a fantastic start as well. At that time it looked like his race engineer was just trying to spoon-feed whatever help possible for the horrible starter Webber is. He is hopeless really. So anything from his engineer helps.

Well 3 of his last 4 starts have been very very good, so maybe he is suddenly the best starter on the grid?

The other one sucked though.

[BillBald]

OK I've read some of the last 2 pages full of the usual RB are cheating crap with handwavy arguments and nothing to back it up...

Well, I've seen a number of interesting and informative posts (including yours).

[BillBald]

Nah. In F1 you have way more power the higher the revs are. So once you can go full throttle (that doesn't take too much time in F1) you want your revs to be as high as possible.

I'm not sure about 'as high as possible'. I think that when an F1 car is in first gear, there will always be enough power to spin the wheels.

When we see and hear onboards of good starts, the revs usually seem to be fairly low at the moment of launch. Of course the revs then rise quickly just a moment later.

In a bad start, the revs often fall about a second after the launch, which suggests that the driver has lifted off too much in response to initial wheelspin.

[st99]

I'm not sure about 'as high as possible'. I think that when an F1 car is in first gear, there will always be enough power to spin the wheels.

When we see and hear onboards of good starts, the revs usually seem to be fairly low at the moment of launch. Of course the revs then rise quickly just a moment later.

In a bad start, the revs often fall about a second after the launch, which suggests that the driver has lifted off too much in response to initial wheelspin.

And maybe that's what Mark's RE was telling him, to not back off too much not to push the throttle to the maximum.