57 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

The BBC's Chequered Flag Formula 1 podcast for 03 Jul 2013 carries a fascinating interview with Sir Frank Williams, in which he talks of many things, such as the influence of Patrick Head and what it was like to work with many of his drivers but this little snippet really stood out:

Jennie Gow, BBC: "You've had difficult decisions to make, as anybody running a company would. And one of those was probably not to re-sign Damon Hill when he was World Champion, for example. How tough was that a decision to make?"

Sir Frank Williams: "That's a long while back... but I probably thought at the time, almost certainly did: 'Great, great. Thank you, Damon - we need to do better.' And I thought the guy we chose would do better and in fact it was a serious error of judgment. For which I'm responsible."

Now in many ways, I guess arguably after so long it doesn't matter any more. I've long admired Damon Hill for being gracious in being thankful for the opportunity to drive for Williams and eventually building a good relationship with the team after he left rather than letting bitterness get to him. But I am still somehow pleased that after all these years, Sir Frank admits he made a mistake. Good on him for saying so.

[mfd]

...not to re-sign Damon Hill when he was World Champion

The decision not to re-sign was made long before he was WC. As H-HF was signed for 97 at the end of 95...

[Ross Stonefeld]

And there were times, particularly in 95, when you'd be forgiven for thinking DC might have been the one to keep.

[mfd]

And there were times, particularly in 95, when you'd be forgiven for thinking DC might have been the one to keep.

You're right Ross, but I think DC was on an escalating salary if he'd have stayed on. IMG managed DC (& Prost in 93) so knew how to bid up their "clients"

[JtP1]

Did Williams and MaClaren not get into a contracts squabble over DC which went to the F1 contracts board and MaClaren won?

[mfd]

Did Williams and MaClaren not get into a contracts squabble over DC which went to the F1 contracts board and MaClaren won?

That was the previous year 94-95 & Williams won the dispute

[TheThirdTenor1]

Nothing new really. Both Williams and Head have admitted that this was something they regretted a few years ago. It was pretty obvious when halfway through the 97 season Schumacher was leading the championship despite the Williams being the class of the field. Head even gave his 2 drivers a stern telling off at Hockenheim.

In the end though, nothing was lost - Williams still won the WCC and got a 1-2 in the drivers championship. Hill may have won the championship sooner (though that is not a given). Hill was also quite old - he retired by the end of 99 so he would have to have left some time soon. The problem is that HHF didn't perform as expected, though no one could've predicted this before 97. Before that, he had the reputation as the one guy who could be as quick as Schumacher.

[ryan86]

I see it as one of those cases where they may have made the wrong decision, but it was not necessarily a bad decision. Certainly thinking back to 1996-1997, I was quite excited at seeing what Frentzen could achieve in the Williams, but during the first half the season, well it just all kind of unravelled.

[Zippel]

Nothing new really. Both Williams and Head have admitted that this was something they regretted a few years ago.

Yeah, they admitted as much I think in their bio of the Williams team. With a championship under his belt and that pressure off his shoulders I reckon Hill would have won the 1997 title more comfortably and not down to the wire at Jerez. Newey would have stayed with the team as well.

DC couldn't stay on for 1996 regardless. The contract dispute ruled he had a deal with Williams for 1995 but one with McLaren for 1996. Besides, I doubt he would have won it in 96, way too inconsistent over a season.

[Ross Stonefeld]

For all we know Hill and Villeneuve would have taken too many points off of each other in 1997.

[Zippel]

True, but Villeneuve was frustratingly inconsistent in 1997 (due it his set-up preferences I'd say) and, it has be said, inherited a number of wins. Say what you will about Hill, mistakes and all, but he was almost always amongst the leaders over the course of a season. If JV and Hill took points off one another it would have been at the front with Schumacher perhaps having to wait another year before he could mount a proper challenge at the title. Where Villeneuve wasn't a factor, Schumacher was, hence their never sharing a podium all year.

[Ray Bell]

I would have thought not re-signing Mansell would have been a bigger mistake...

Sure, he might have been asking for a lot of money, he might have been a pain to deal with, but he would certainly have got results.

[Zippel]

I would have thought not re-signing Mansell would have been a bigger mistake...

Sure, he might have been asking for a lot of money, he might have been a pain to deal with, but he would certainly have got results.

Are you referring to signing Mansell for 1993 or 1995?

[Ray Bell]

Not re-signing him for '94...

He was still on top of the game then, he had the history and attachment with Williams, massive levels of determination and guts.

[Bloggsworth]

I would think that watching Damon lead 90% of the Hungarian GP in an Arrows really rubbed it in.

[SophieB]

Yeah, they admitted as much I think in their bio of the Williams team. With a championship under his belt and that pressure off his shoulders I reckon Hill would have won the 1997 title more comfortably and not down to the wire at Jerez. Newey would have stayed with the team as well.

I am surprised to hear that. Even in the last year or so I would have arguments (not on this board) with Williams fans telling me how it was Damon's own fault he didn't get re-signed due to his own greed/unpleasant agent. However, I haven't read the bio you speak of but it sounds like I was slightly waiting for closure that had already been long granted! Oh well, it is a nice interview anyway.

[MCS]

You're right Ross, but I think DC was on an escalating salary if he'd have stayed on. IMG managed DC (& Prost in 93) so knew how to bid up their "clients"

I thought Coulthard had booted IMG by that time. I may be mistaken.

[garoidb]

I am surprised to hear that. Even in the last year or so I would have arguments (not on this board) with Williams fans telling me how it was Damon's own fault he didn't get re-signed due to his own greed/unpleasant agent. However, I haven't read the bio you speak of but it sounds like I was slightly waiting for closure that had already been long granted! Oh well, it is a nice interview anyway.

I always thought Damon Hill would have gained more credit for his Williams career if he had won a GP for Jordan and nearly won one for Arrows before joining them. Perhaps that was an eye opener for Frank Williams and Patrick Head too.

[selespeed]

I would think that watching Damon lead 90% of the Hungarian GP in an Arrows really rubbed it in.

which HHF would have won easily if not for a car failure

[Vitesse2]

I always thought Damon Hill would have gained more credit for his Williams career if he had won a GP for Jordan and nearly won one for Arrows before joining them. Perhaps that was an eye opener for Frank Williams and Patrick Head too.

Getting a Brabham BT60B-Judd through qualifying - twice! - and getting it to the finish - twice - was arguably a greater achievement. That car was such an appalling dog it didn't even bark, it just whimpered, slunk away and widdled on a newspaper. Damon got a standing ovation at Silverstone when he brought it home - in sixteenth place!

[Zippel]

Not re-signing him for '94...

He was still on top of the game then, he had the history and attachment with Williams, massive levels of determination and guts.

Apparently Mansell was missing test sessions at the end of 94 so questioned his commitment to return and decided on Coulthard.

I am surprised to hear that. Even in the last year or so I would have arguments (not on this board) with Williams fans telling me how it was Damon's own fault he didn't get re-signed due to his own greed/unpleasant agent. However, I haven't read the bio you speak of but it sounds like I was slightly waiting for closure that had already been long granted! Oh well, it is a nice interview anyway.

Oh Frank Williams' unpleasant negotiations with Damon Hill's manager is cited as a reason why Hill wasn't kept but Sir Frank obviously feels he should have just worked around it. Someone in the book suggests that had Hill walked into Frank's office by himself they would have had a deal for 1997 they'd both been happy with, don't remember which party said it though.

Edited by Zippel, 12 July 2013 - 10:08.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Williams had a nasty habit of getting rid of their World Champions the following year. I wonder if they got to the point where they thought the car/team was more important than the driver? Did it lead to the slide down to where they are today?

[Emery0323]

Williams had a nasty habit of getting rid of their World Champions the following year. I wonder if they got to the point where they thought the car/team was more important than the driver? Did it lead to the slide down to where they are today?

Frank Williams has been quoted as saying that his goal was always to win the constructor's championship. If they win the driver's championship, well, that's a nice bonus.

[RCH]

Never understood why Williams was so infatuated with Frentzen, good enough driver perhaps but his status seemed to come about because he was occasionally faster than Schumacher when testing Mercedes sports cars, and was blown up by sections of the press who should have known better.

[biercemountain]

Consider for a moment what might have been:

Hill stays on in '97 fighting with Villeneuve for the WDC in the best car on the grid. '98 was the beginning of Williams' long decline as McLaren raised its game so another WDC was unlikely. By '99 Damon would have recognized that Williams had reached it's sell by date and would have probably left on his own accord. That being said, he would have had some time to shop himself around but prime seats (Ferrari and McLaren) were probably not in the cards.

The irony is he probably would have wound up at Jordan.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Imagine if he had swallowed his pride(which was arguably justified given his recent WC) and taken the low salary + win bonus to go to McLaren...

[SophieB]

Oh Frank Williams' unpleasant negotiations with Damon Hill's manager is cited as a reason why Hill wasn't kept but Sir Frank obviously feels he should have just worked around it. Someone in the book suggests that had Hill walked into Frank's office by himself they would have had a deal for 1997 they'd both been happy with, don't remember which party said it though.

The agent story always left a sour taste to me because it seemed on the face of it to be ducking the responsibility of the decision and giving the world, and possibly Hill himself, the idea that if he'd played his cards better at the contracts negotiation, he might have kept his job. As you say,'if only Damon had approached Frank on his own and dealt direct... '
But everything I've read suggests that the decision to move on had already been taken so it was somewhat cruel to afterwards dangle the promise of what might have been if Damon had only behaved himself.

I suspect you may have seen it before, but I enjoyed this Motor Sport article of reflections from 2008 by Damon Hill on his time at Williams. He speaks of how in retrospect he does think he himself could have behaved better, although he thinks he never had the full confidence of the Williams team. Also includes the writer Andrew Benson's (now chief F1 writer for the BBC of course) recollections of breaking the news of Hill's sacking back when he was working for Autosport.

“I shot the messenger, didn’t I?” Hill laughs. “I’m sorry. You’re leading the World Championship and you expect to pick up Autosport and see: ‘Can Damon win?’ And instead it says you’re fired. I thought: ‘That can’t be right.’ My response was: ‘Why would you do that to me, when I can win a World Championship? And you know you’re going to sell more copies of Autosport if I do.’ I just couldn’t get it.”

Did you think that the press should be supporting you?

“I did naïvely think that.”

Williams eventually told Hill a month later, between the Belgian and Italian Grands Prix.

[mfd]

In essence when FW says it was probably an error, it is the truth. Everyone here, has picked up on some of the factors that had a part to play in the whole Mansell, Hill, Coulthard, Frentzen situation but the process & result (with Hill being passed over) was part of a continuing theme... There was influence from within the team, the drivers' behaviour & abilities (both known or perceived) the actions of their management, the preferences of two key team sponsors. These points all lined on up on one side or the other as positives & negatives but essentially, the final decision was his & the one big factor that decided it was money.

[Garagiste]

Imagine if he had swallowed his pride(which was arguably justified given his recent WC) and taken the low salary + win bonus to go to McLaren...

Just as they really started to deliver the goods, one of my favourite "what ifs". I sort of get his thinking on the matter, but if ever there was a bad call...

[TheThirdTenor1]

Yeah, they admitted as much I think in their bio of the Williams team. With a championship under his belt and that pressure off his shoulders I reckon Hill would have won the 1997 title more comfortably and not down to the wire at Jerez. Newey would have stayed with the team as well.

DC couldn't stay on for 1996 regardless. The contract dispute ruled he had a deal with Williams for 1995 but one with McLaren for 1996. Besides, I doubt he would have won it in 96, way too inconsistent over a season.

Agree on everything apart from the bit about Newey. Never seen anything to back up the claim that Newey left because of Hill. Here, Williams says he left because of a dispute over shares:

http://www.espn.co.u...tory/71428.html

[rallen]

Has there ever been a team that has mismanaged drivers as badly as Williams? they have been quite poor when you look at their history

[rallen]

Imagine if he had swallowed his pride(which was arguably justified given his recent WC) and taken the low salary + win bonus to go to McLaren...

I heard Hill say that was never actually an opportunity & that Ron never wanted him but was pressured by sponsors to sound him out. Damon said that he could have got pole, fastest lap and led from start until the last lap before his car failed and he would earn £0 for the race weekend. With a young family not having earned mega bucks upto that point in his career and being mid 30's he decided against it considering the teams lack of commitment.

[rallen]

I always though Hill was very underrated - his team mates were Prost, Senna & Mansell and was never embarrassed by either - indeed I thought he showed Prost up in what was his only his 1st full season (should have won in Britain & Germany)

He did have a poor 1995 but then he must have been burnt out by a very traumatic 1994 season when he became team leader after Senna's death & would have won the WDC if Schummacher had not blatantly cheated all the way though before punting him off. I think his dip was fully understandable. Plus he went off in Germany due to car failure but Williams were slow to defend him and it was though it was a driver error.

Why is/was Hill so unfashionable and underrated. I think history will be kinder but certainly it was a big error getting rid of him.

I have heard before that Newey left the team because they let Damon go but I don't actually know the facts - can anyone fill me in on this?

[CSquared]

Williams had a nasty habit of getting rid of their World Champions the following year. I wonder if they got to the point where they thought the car/team was more important than the driver? Did it lead to the slide down to where they are today?

I read something from Ron Dennis a few years ago where he said Williams had been doing it right and McLaren wrong. Williams invested in the car and the drivers came second. They swapped a lot of drivers but just about anybody who drove those cars could win (four different WDCs in six years). McLaren on the other hand invested in Senna. In 1993, Dennis said, Senna won races that car shouldn't have been able to win, but when Senna left they had crap machinery for years. He tried to follow the Williams model more closely after that.

[rallen]

I read something from Ron Dennis a few years ago where he said Williams had been doing it right and McLaren wrong. Williams invested in the car and the drivers came second. They swapped a lot of drivers but just about anybody who drove those cars could win (four different WDCs in six years). McLaren on the other hand invested in Senna. In 1993, Dennis said, Senna won races that car shouldn't have been able to win, but when Senna left they had crap machinery for years. He tried to follow the Williams model more closely after that.

Interesting CSquared but how many Constructers Championships did they win after Senna in 1993?;)

[CSquared]

Interesting CSquared but how many Constructers Championships did they win after Senna in 1993?;)

None until they built a killer car in 1998. I think that was his point.

[Zippel]

Newey didn't specifically leave because Hill left but it was the final straw. He felt he had earned a right to have a say on who drives the car and even had it in his last contract with Williams. He felt Mansell should have driven in 1995, wasn't consulted at all with Villeneuve, and Hill's sacking was as much a surprise to him as most others. He was quite happy staying with Williams and had been knocking back offers from other teams since 1992 but wasn't happy how he wasn't consulted about driver choices, and was even considered a breach of contract in order to get out of his deal with Williams early.

And Patrick Head was the one who mentioned drivers dealing with Frank Williams face to face, citing Patrese in an amusing example.

Again, this is all from the Williams book.

Another thing Newey and Hill got on extremely well, so much so Newey was also trying to convince Ron Dennis to hire him for 98, but ultimately Ron's dummy bid put short work to that.

Edited by Zippel, 13 July 2013 - 02:48.

[chr1s]

[quote name='Zippel' date='Jul 12 2013, 01:39' post='6355377']
Newey would have stayed with the team as well.

I think this might be the reason FW thinks he made "a serious error in judgment"

[Zippel]

I think this might be the reason FW thinks he made "a serious error in judgment"

FW offered Newey more money than he was going to receive at McLaren ('But don't tell Patrick') however Newey felt it was too late. So its not like FW didn't try.

[rallen]

And Patrick Head was the one who mentioned drivers dealing with Frank Williams face to face, citing Patrese in an amusing example.

Could you enlighten me on the Patrese example?

[Magoo]

HR was never Sir Frank's long suit, especially with drivers. They prevent the proper triangulation of the monocoque, etc.

[hogstar]

Newey wasn't F1 design God when he was at Williams (he wasn't even T.D), but history has since proved that he is!

Williams was Frank and Patricks Team and they made the decisions. Whatever Newey did or didn't think about Damon or any other decision drive related or otherwise, it wasn't his responsibility.

Im also intrigued about Patrese. He was and still is, very highly respected at Williams.

[Zippel]

Patrick Head:

"Frank loves to see passion in people and in sportmen. He's always been putty in the hands of outstanding drivers - not ordinary drivers but those he regards as outstanding. In 1991 Riccardo's contract had come to an end. I was talking to Frank in the motorhome at Spa and he said, ‘I suppose I’d better talk to Riccardo about next year. Are you keen to keep him?’ I said, ‘He’s a lovely guy. He’s quick. He’s shown himself to be a match for Nigel on his day. Maybe Nigel will beat him but you couldn’t do better really. My vote is to keep him.’ ‘Okay’, he said. ‘I’ll do that, but probably I won’t pay him a lot of money.’ I said, ‘That’s up to you, Frank.’
I went outside and said, ‘Riccardo, Frank wants to see you now.’ He went in there like the schoolboy who was about to see the headmaster. About half an hour later Riccardo came out with a big smile on his face. He couldn’t believe it. I think he’d screwed $2.5 million out of Frank when he was quite prepared to drive for half that.


………


If Damon had come in himself and sat down, he might not have got what Breen (manager) was asking for, but he would have got a lot of money. Sending in some charmless lackey was a big mistake. Frank’s a sucker and Riccardo had him over like you wouldn’t believe. Pg 285.

[mfd]

Patrick Head:
If Damon had come in himself and sat down, he might not have got what Breen (manager) was asking for, but he would have got a lot of money. Sending in some charmless lackey was a big mistake. Frank’s a sucker and Riccardo had him over like you wouldn’t believe. Pg 285.

Correct. The fundamental point is always money. This team (& told so from one step short of the top) was to balance and gamble the amount paid to a driver against the expectation of what they'd collect from the prize fund.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I can't reliably remember where I saw it (I think Ask Nigel when it used to run on Autosport.com?) but there was either a quote or a reference to Sir Frank on Patrese and it was along the lines of "He was a great guy and I won't hear a word said against him". Which surprised me because that's not the kind of praise you hear from anyone in F1, certainly not Williams.

[hogstar]

Apologies, OT, but can't help thinking what a shame Patrese wasn't afforded the same credibility a decade earlier, he wasn't any quicker in 1991 than he was in 1979 or 1980 or..., if anything the other way round.

Patrese has always been quick, but many got caught up in the myth and it is nice to hear that some are reappraising him. It was only when he had consistently quick machinery he showed what he could do on a regular basis after years of unreliable cars. Bernie always rated him and talked him up to Frank when releasing him from his contract early in late '87 and had to remind the world that he was still quick. Frank wanted him back after Senna's death, but after initially agreeing, wisely (in my opinion) chose against it.

I think one of the things Williams liked about him is that he didn't make waves. He knew his place and could of easily thrown his toys out of the pram after being more than a match for Mansell, especially in the first half of '91. I think it was Estoril, where he was in a class of own and couldn't be touched. Probably lacked the ruthlessness on (and off) the track to be WDC, but he certainly deserves more than the journeyman status that he is often judged as.

[Ray Bell]

Patrese suffered greatly from all kinds of ill-feeling in his early years...

It's even possible he got some of the wash from the Shadow/Arrows conflict. But he drove above all of those things.

[RCH]

Patrese suffered greatly from all kinds of ill-feeling in his early years...

It's even possible he got some of the wash from the Shadow/Arrows conflict. But he drove above all of those things.

I think Patrese suffered from James Hunt's obvious dislike of him when commentating. I also seem to remember a comment made by Jenks to the effect that although he was good enough to lead and even win one almost got the impression that if he got into the lead he was constantly looking over his shoulder not quite able to believe someone else wasn't going to overtake.

[Ray Bell]

His win at Monaco being despite that trait?

Hunt was at war with him in the beginning, before his TV commentating time, wasn't he? I recall reading that he blamed Patrese for Peterson's death.

But there was a lot going on as he entered F1, suddenly up there with the leaders in a car that was to become the subject of a court case.

[Catalina Park]

But there was a lot going on as he entered F1, suddenly up there with the leaders in a car that was to become the subject of a court case.

Don't forget that he was one of the many Shadow drivers in 77 before the big defection to Arrows in 78.