191 replies to this topic

[vrroomcd]

Mattias Ekstrom has been stripped of his Norisring DTM victory, giving Robert Wickens a maiden win.

Ekstrom was adjudged to have broken the series' parc ferme regulations when he was given water while celebrating his on-the-road victory.

could appeal under medical grounds, I guess anyone would need water in the heat. would they prefer someone to collapse from dehydration

[nosecone]

Mattias Ekstrom has been stripped of his Norisring DTM victory, giving Robert Wickens a maiden win.

Ekstrom was adjudged to have broken the series' parc ferme regulations when he was given water while celebrating his on-the-road victory.

could appeal under medical grounds, I guess anyone would need water in the heat. would they prefer someone to collapse from dehydration

Somehow i don't have the feeling that this decision competes for the "world fastest jury decision"-title...

But if someone filled water in Eks car it's the correct decision and i think the team knows that. And the team also knows about the parc ferme rules

[KingB]

Somehow i don't have the feeling that this decision competes for the "world fastest jury decision"-title...

But if someone filled water in Eks car it's the correct decision and i think the team knows that. And the team also knows about the parc ferme rules

no, his father put it in his pocket of the race suit...

[redreni]

Mattias Ekstrom has been stripped of his Norisring DTM victory, giving Robert Wickens a maiden win.

Ekstrom was adjudged to have broken the series' parc ferme regulations when he was given water while celebrating his on-the-road victory.

could appeal under medical grounds, I guess anyone would need water in the heat. would they prefer someone to collapse from dehydration

Hang on, surely you have to accept that, unless there are medical grounds, he can't have water until after he's weighed, for the obvious reason that water isn't weightless. This is never normally a problem even on very hot days, even on tracks that are, frankly, much harder work than Norisring, which ony has one quick-ish corner and three slow ones. The time between getting out of the car and being weighed is very short, and if Ekstrom wanted to make it shorter still so that he could have a drink, he could have gone straight to the weighbridge rather than celebrating with and hugging his crew (they're not technically even supposed to touch him).

I can appreciate that if a person is seriously dehydrated they should be given water without undue delay regardless of what the rules say, but it's not as if he needed help to get out of the car, as far as I know the team doctor wasn't called upon to give him medical assistance, the team had no concerns about letting him do the podium ceremony and press conference straight afterwards. In short, he wasn't in such a bad way that he couldn' have waited 30 seconds while they weighed him before having a drink of water. He was thirsty, not at death's door. A few seconds to weigh him would not have been an undue delay before giving him a drink, in my view, and Audi know the rules so they can't blame anybody else for this.

[nosecone]

no, his father put it in his pocket of the race suit...

oh didn't know that. sorry

[Ross Stonefeld]

A guy got DQ'd from an F3000 podium once because he removed some debris(tape I think) from his car in parc ferme.

[Nigol]

no, his father put it in his pocket of the race suit...

That's not exactly true. Actually his father tilted water over him and this is why he got excluded.

[KingB]

That's not exactly true. Actually his father tilted water over him and this is why he got excluded.

I have seen that his father poured the bottle into the pocket of the race suit ;)

[redreni]

no, his father put it in his pocket of the race suit...

Does that mean he got weighed with the water in his pocket - he didn't even drink it? If so, this has nothing to do with dehydration or medical dispensation, it's just a straightforward no-brainer - disqualify him. You can't have people putting stuff in the drivers' pockets before they are weighed, obviously.

I think they should tighten up on the celebrations when the drivers get out the car. I know they don't want to stop the celebrations because it's good for TV, but it would be equally good for TV but 30s later if they had to go to the weighbridge first and then, when they come back, got to have a hug and a celebration with the boys.

[KingB]

you can see it in the pic (DTM.com)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Did Ekstrom know it was there? Because unless hid dad is on a pass that says he's a team member, neither the driver nor the team have done anything themselves.

[redreni]

you can see it in the pic (DTM.com)

Pretty blatant. DQ is the least you'd expect for that.

Does anyone know how much they cleared the minimum weight by? Because if they were in danger of being underweight, a disqualification is arguably not enough because, obviously, if they came in underweight they'd be disqualified anyway. Clandestinely adding weight in parc ferme to avoid a DQ is pretty serious and could easily lead to a multi-race ban - it's essentially the same offence that BAR got banned for, they weren't adding weight in parc ferme but they were claiming to have drained the fuel when they hadn't, which amounts to the same thing.

[KingB]

Does anyone know how much they cleared the minimum weight by? Because if they were in danger of being underweight, a disqualification is arguably not enough because, obviously, if they came in underweight they'd be disqualified anyway. Clandestinely adding weight in parc ferme to avoid a DQ is pretty serious and could easily lead to a multi-race ban - it's essentially the same offence that BAR got banned for, they weren't adding weight in parc ferme but they were claiming to have drained the fuel when they hadn't, which amounts to the same thing.

He was clear 6-7 kilo....so not even near the minimum weight

Edited by KingB, 14 July 2013 - 20:35.

[billm99uk]

Starting to sound like the infamous "water-cooled" brakes trick but with the driver rather than the car. Bizarre

[Nigol]

I have seen that his father poured the bottle into the pocket of the race suit ;)

Ah ok. The water, not the bottle. Sorry ;).

[Briz]

so far all this sounds bizarre to me

[ensign14]

A guy got DQ'd from an F3000 podium once because he removed some debris(tape I think) from his car in parc ferme.

Andreas Scheld. Protested by Coloni, as it was the era when a bunch of teams would be slung out at the end of the year as they had something like 46 cars per race. Would have been his only points score - and proved crucial as Coloni finished the year with 8 points to Scheld's Fortec team's 6.

But one has to wonder at the mental acuity of race stewards. We see incidences of drivers punting others off and getting no penalty, others treating the circuit boundaries as decoration, blocking left right and centre, and literally nothing is done. But a DQ for this.

Perhaps the FIA ought to get people with a brain involved. Although that might be dangerous, people with brains have ideas. They don't qualify as a steward through running a Mumbai cinema and ask for world champions to be stripped of the title for having facial hair.

[redreni]

He was clear 6-7 kilo....so not even near the minimum weight

With several kilos margin a further penalty beyond the DQ is not necessary, then. But if you fill your driver's pocket with anything whatsoever in parc ferme you deserve to be kicked out of the race, no doubt about that.

On BAR, it depends who you believe. At the time the regs didn't specifically say that fuel wasn't counted as part of the car's weight, the regs simply said the car has to weigh 520KG, or whatever the weight limit was then, at all times during the event. The FIA said they had to drain all the fuel before weighing the car because they couldn't know how much fuel, if any, had been in the car during the race when it was at its lightest. BAR were saying the car could not be driven unless the secondary fuel tank was completely full of pressurised fuel, so therefore there was no reason for that tank to be emptied before the car's weight was checked because, if at any time during the event that tank had been anything but full, the car would have stopped and couldn't have been restarted. So, they were saying, it's like taking the wheels off the car and then saying "it's underweight" - the car can't run without the wheels.

Even so, what's not in dispute is the Jo Bauer told BAR to drain the fuel, they took some fuel out and claimed it was empty, then the FIA got quite a few more litres out of it...

[Hans V]

This is the most ridiculous DQ I can remember in motorsport. I wonder what kind of hallucinogenes the stewards have been taking to come to this decision?

[CSquared]

If he didn't drink it why didn't they just take it out of his pocket and weigh him again? I don't know the whole timeline here.

[billm99uk]

I have seen that his father poured the bottle into the pocket of the race suit ;)

Maybe he had a large plastic bag in there and inflates like the Michelin man?

[MikeV1987]

What an absolute joke, whoever came up with that punishment is a complete tool and should probably not have the responsibility of calling shots like that again.

Edited by MikeV1987, 14 July 2013 - 21:00.

[Briz]

his dad must feel terrible...

[KingB]

If he didn't drink it why didn't they just take it out of his pocket and weigh him again? I don't know the whole timeline here.

how can you take water out of a pocket?
to make it clear: he didn't put the bottle into the pocket, he poured water out of the bottle into the pocket

[CSquared]

how can you take water out of a pocket?
to make it clear: he didn't put the bottle into the pocket, he poured water out of the bottle into the pocket

Oh, I see. Did he do that on purpose?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Uh, why would you pour water in someone's pocket?

[Diablobb81]

And i don't understand the outrage about the penalty. Is there some new info we don't know about (like it was a family tradition or some other stupid excuse)?

[KingB]

dunno whether you can see it in your country...but when: http://www.ardmediat...mentId=15857668
look at 1h31min....when he climbs out of the car

[redreni]

If he didn't drink it why didn't they just take it out of his pocket and weigh him again? I don't know the whole timeline here.

Probably because they didn't realise it was there until afterwards. And anyway, it doesn't matter as there's no suggestion he was underweight, he has been excluded for the blatant infringement of the parc ferme rules.

[CSquared]

Uh, why would you pour water in someone's pocket?

That's kinda what I'm asking Did he mean to give him a bottle of water and not know the lid wasn't on? Or was he intentionally trying to add weight? If so, why when they were 6 kg over?

[vrroomcd]

Hell of a birthday present from your dad

[Briz]

Looks like a practical joke that worked big time.

[JimboJones]

That's kinda what I'm asking Did he mean to give him a bottle of water and not know the lid wasn't on? Or was he intentionally trying to add weight? If so, why when they were 6 kg over?

I don't know why there is any debate at all here. Just watch the video on youtube! Two people clearly squeeze water into his overalls - the second guy he hugs and the one pouring it into his pocket - it's the most blatant breach of parc ferme rules to ensure he exceeds the weight limit. No alternative but to exclude him, outright cheating. The water would be soaked up by his suit, so you obviously can't 'remove' it...

http://www.youtube.c...PmcjZsw#t=5559s
1:32:40s

Edited by JimboJones, 14 July 2013 - 21:28.

[redreni]

This is the most ridiculous DQ I can remember in motorsport. I wonder what kind of hallucinogenes the stewards have been taking to come to this decision?

What an absolute joke, whoever came up with that punishment is a complete tool and should probably not have the responsibility of calling shots like that again.

Hans V, you either have memory failure or you haven't seen much motorsport.

MikeV1987, look at the video posted by KingB. If you look at it and still think the penalty is a joke, then all I can say is I'm glad DTM has the stewards it does rather than you.

[MikeV1987]

I did watch the video, and I still think its stupid. A warning would of been fine but stripping him of a win? what a joke.

Edited by MikeV1987, 14 July 2013 - 21:33.

[Shiroo]

what is worse, that F1 cars can be illegal and they get warning. here they did smt like that and well "LETS TAKE YOUR WIN"

[jimjimjeroo]

If it was F1 then Itd have been a ban, fine for bringing sport in to disrepute, total media frenzy!

[CSquared]

I don't know why there is any debate at all here. Just watch the video on youtube! Two people clearly squeeze water into his overalls - the second guy he hugs and the one pouring it into his pocket - it's the most blatant breach of parc ferme rules to ensure he exceeds the weight limit. No alternative but to exclude him, outright cheating. The water would be soaked up by his suit, so you obviously can't 'remove' it...

http://www.youtube.c...PmcjZsw#t=5559s
1:32:40s

Calm down, son. I wasn't debating, just asking questions. I've watched the video now. DQ deserved. And they took that risk when he was 6 kg over. Bizarre.

[pingu666]

well that looks tobe a 500ml bottle, so thats half a kilo, maybe?
lame officaldom imo

[JHSingo]

Well that has to go down as one of the stupidest penalties I've ever heard about.

So a driver could collapse of dehydration at the end of the race, but you can't pass him a water bottle?

[Currahee]

Did Hakkinen get disqualified when the McLaren pit crew launched a bucket of water over him?

Think that was maybe Hungary?

Surely that was adding weight to him.

[DS27]

They might as well have given him a lead hat to wear.

If the intent to cheat is clear, it's irrelevant whether he was 1kg over or 15kg over. They clearly thought it was marginal and tried to safeguard against it. Just a DQ from the race is the least that should happen.

In club racing, I once knew of a guy who won and stopped out the back of circuits like Snetterton on the slowing down lap and put 'rocks' that had been 'placed' there in his pockets. This actually happened

[Ross Stonefeld]

If he got the water bottle after he'd been weighed, I think he'd be fine; or gotten it as part of the normal podium procedure.

I'd appeal the hell out of it on the basis he looks completely unaware of it and it wasn't a team infraction.

[DS27]

well that looks tobe a 500ml bottle, so thats half a kilo, maybe?
lame officaldom imo

The weight added is irrelevant - They have been caught cheating & breaking parc ferme rules. If it was inadvertant, I would think it harsh, but if the intent was there, which apparently it is (I can't play the video at the mo), then the penalty is justified.

[redreni]

what is worse, that F1 cars can be illegal and they get warning. here they did smt like that and well "LETS TAKE YOUR WIN"

That's F1's problem not DTM's.

There is no innocent explanation for pouring water into a driver's overalls in parc ferme before he has been weighed. There's no reason not to have a harsh penalty for it because it should never, ever happen. It can't happen by accident. If Audi think the penalty is harsh there's a simple answer - don't pour water down the driver's overalls, then you won't have to face up to the penalty.

[CSquared]

I'd appeal the hell out of it on the basis he looks completely unaware of it and it wasn't a team infraction.

I bet their argument will be that the dad acted on his own and no one else knew anything about it. If that's the case, give the win back, ban the dad from the paddock, and maybe fine the team for having a cheater hanging out with them.

They said in the German broadcast his dad used to race, so not only did he know what he was doing, it's likely an "old trick" that he's done before.

[Al.]

I'm an Audi fan and I know it's a harsh outcome but spot on. Part ferme rules govern motorsport the world over at every level.
While I accept he probably wasn't underweight I hope the penalty isn't overturned on appeal.
That would send a dangerous precedent that teams will try to exploit in the future.
This time the margin was 6-7 kilos . The next time it might be 2 kilos, then it might be 0.5 kilo.
At what point do you say that's enough.
If this DQ is upheld you nip any future arguments on precedent in the bud.

[redreni]

Well that has to go down as one of the stupidest penalties I've ever heard about.

So a driver could collapse of dehydration at the end of the race, but you can't pass him a water bottle?

So you think adding weight to your driver before he is weighed should be allowed, then? Should it always be allowed, or just in this case? Where do you think the stewards should draw the line? And what about the cars - if a mechanic was caught adding weight to the car in parc ferme. is that also alright? If not, what's the difference?

And no, nobody is saying a dehydrated driver can't be given water. Ekky wasn't dehydrated - you can tell that because the first thing he did when he got out of the car is climb on top of it to celebrate, and the second thing he did is celebrate energetically with his team, he didn't drink any of the water he was given, and he then went off to get weighed and do the podium and press conference without any problems. He could have drunk as much water as he wanted after he was weighed but he didn't appear to be particularly thirsty.

If a driver were to collapse of dehydration before being weighed a medic would tend to him, and if there was any dispute about weight later, the medic would be asked to estimate how much the driver drank and the stewards would take it into account. If you pour water down the driver's overalls you don't get that benefit, you just get kicked out, and deservedly so.

Edited by redreni, 14 July 2013 - 22:03.

[redreni]

Did Hakkinen get disqualified when the McLaren pit crew launched a bucket of water over him?

Think that was maybe Hungary?

Surely that was adding weight to him.

Not sure, I don't know the details of that. Was that definitely before he was weighed? If so, it's not allowed, and as it was so long ago and in a different category it doesn't set a precedent that would let Audi off the hook here.

[redreni]

If he got the water bottle after he'd been weighed, I think he'd be fine; or gotten it as part of the normal podium procedure.

I'd appeal the hell out of it on the basis he looks completely unaware of it and it wasn't a team infraction.

I'm going to bet Audi won't do that, on the basis that DTM officials weren't born yesterday.