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Graham McRae, Poole, Dorset. Why?


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#1 arttidesco

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 23:20

I've been trying to establish why Roger Penske set up shop in Poole, Dorset.

While there is absolutely nothing wrong with the place as I remember it back in the 1970's, unless I am missing something Poole, Dorset does not appear to be near any notable transport hubs for air or sea and IIRC to this day is still not within 20 odd miles of the nearest motorway.

So what was happening in Poole that made it so attractive to a multi millionaire from the USA ?

Sticking Penske, Poole, Dorset in 'TNF Search' has led me to the following from Rob kayemod on the Jim Clark Specialised Mouldings Thread

You rang Sir?

I left Specialised Mouldings to go to Lotus, eventually leaving there to set up my own business in Dorset, which I'm still running today, and that's where I met Jim properly for the first time, he was in partnership with another Jim, Jim Finch, and together they ran FKS Fibreglass in a small factory in Balena Close, Creekmoor, Poole, right next door to Graham McRae's place, which later became the original UK setup of Penske Cars.


So my questions now are how did Roger find out about Graham McRae's Poole premises and what on earth led a New Zealander to set up shop in Poole, Dorset which is miles from the nearest race track that I'll, probably incorrectly, guess is Castle Combe ?

I hope I am not missing anything too obvious.

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

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#2 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 23:40

My understanding is that McRae was in Poole because that's where Len Terry lived (Leda being a precursor of McRae, of course). In any case, I'm having lunch with Nick Goozee tomorrow (Tues) so I'll ask him again.

#3 arttidesco

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 23:49

My understanding is that McRae was in Poole because that's where Len Terry lived (Leda being a precursor of McRae, of course). In any case, I'm having lunch with Nick Goozee tomorrow (Tues) so I'll ask him again.


Thanks very much Nigel, I'll be grateful for any answers :up:

#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 05:22

In the Len Terry book (Racing Car Design and Development by Len Terry and Alan Baker) it’s explained that Terry had a good working relationship with John Lambert, with whom he’d worked at both Lotus and AAR. When personal differences between Terry and Frank Nichols led to the winding-up of the Hastings-based Transatlantic Automotive Consultants towards the end of 1967, Terry decided to join forces with Lambert in Poole:

His old colleague John Lambert was by then living and working in the Poole area, an expanding town where business rentals were still low, so since Terry no longer had any ties in Hastings he decided to move to Dorset. The result was Design Auto, set up late in 1967 in a small factory in a new industrial estate on the outskirts of Poole, with Terry in charge of the design operation and Lambert looking after the car construction.

In 1969 Terry and Lambert set up Leda Cars Ltd to manufacture their own F5000 cars, and in 1970, short of funds, they agreed to merge the business with the Malaya Garage Group. Following the failure of the Leda LT25 the Malaya Group put their faith in Graham McRae and a deal was concluded whereby Leda Cars would build a new car to McRae’s specifications. This was the immediately-successful Leda LT26 (later McRae GM1). At this point (July 1972) the Malaya Group decided to pull out:

With virtually no reference to Terry they sold the Poole establishment lock, stock and barrel to McRae so that he could build and sell replicas (called GM1) of the car that was doing so well.

In hardly a cheerful frame of mind, Terry transferred Design Auto to his attractive self-designed home above nearby Wimborne.



#5 Tony Matthews

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:17

I went to Factory Road, Upton on the 30th October 1972 to collect information to do a cutaway of the GM1 for Motoring News - which wasn't drawn until December, and not finished until 9th January 1973. Then, in 1978 I was commissioned by Penske Cars to do the PC6, and set off for the factory, having by then forgotten the McRae address, which resulted in a double-take when I turned into Factory Road again... Several of the fabricators had transferred to Penske Cars, and some years later, with more and more work coming from Penske or their sponsors involving regular trips to Upton, I gave the GM1 artwork to a very nice guy called, I think, Ivor.

Edited by Tony Matthews, 16 July 2013 - 06:18.


#6 arttidesco

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:30

Thanks Tim and Tony :up:



#7 DogEarred

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:12

Another offshoot from the Penske activity in Poole was C&B Consultants, who did wind tunnel model work, some composite components & also marine work.

#8 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:49

The original Penske factory was in Balena Close on the Creekmoor Industrial Estate in Poole. This was followed by the factory in Factory Road, Upton at (I assume) no.2. The company then moved next door to no.4 Factory Road. In the mid Nineties some adjacent land was acquired and the factory was practically doubled in size with an extension which enlarged both the composites department and the design office. This is where it stayed until it closed in 2006. Ivor, the sole remaining employee from the Leda/McRae era recalled by Tony, was there until the end.

It still begs the question as to why RP chose Poole, rather than join the McLaren / Tyrrell / Brabham cluster around Heathrow. They were already in Dorset by the time Heinz Hofer hired Nick Goozee away from Brabham, but I expect he knows. Although not convenient for the airport(s) in those days, at least it was reasonable for the ferries from Portsmouth, and in those days teams drove to the European races.

#9 Tony Matthews

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:00

Although not convenient for the airport(s) in those days...

And RP had his heli-pad behind the factory!


#10 xj13v12

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:11

My understanding is that McRae was in Poole because that's where Len Terry lived (Leda being a precursor of McRae, of course). In any case, I'm having lunch with Nick Goozee tomorrow (Tues) so I'll ask him again.


Nigel, please say hello to Nick for me and tell him the Brabham is finally progressing again. Aaron

#11 ensign14

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:24

It's quite far south, Poole. So maybe it made Cassius feel more at home.

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:34

Although not convenient for the airport(s) in those days, at least it was reasonable for the ferries from Portsmouth, and in those days teams drove to the European races.

Even more reasonable for ferries from Poole to Cherbourg! :lol: Close to both Hurn and Southampton Airports too. As I recall, Southampton did a fair bit of freight then, although Hurn was mainly charters and private planes.

#13 kayemod

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 09:40

The original Penske factory was in Balena Close on the Creekmoor Industrial Estate in Poole. This was followed by the factory in Factory Road, Upton at (I assume) no.2.


Penske were still operating out of Balena Close well into the 1980s, it seemed to be the entire UK operation, so when did the move of a mile or so to Factory Road take place, were they running both places at the same time? Is Tony right about going to work on the GM1 at Upton? I'm sure that Graham McRae never had a place there, his only location was the Creekmoor workshop that Penske later took over from him.

Lunch with Nick Goozee eh? Is he coming round to your place?

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#14 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:29

Lunch with Nick Goozee eh? Is he coming round to your place?


:lol:

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 16 July 2013 - 10:30.


#15 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:09

Nick Goozee's recollection is that Roger was looking for a low profile UK base at around the time Graham McRae was looking to sell the site. Heinz Hofer was sent over to have a look and the deal was done.

#16 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:02

Nick Goozee's recollection is that Roger was looking for a low profile UK base at around the time Graham McRae was looking to sell the site. Heinz Hofer was sent over to have a look and the deal was done.


Nigel thanks for asking and passing on the answer :up:

#17 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 15:15

I guess the perception that Poole is a long way from anywhere is a peculiarly British one anyway. In reality, to anyone from outside this small island, a two hour drive to get to, say, Heathrow or Silverstone from Poole is hardly a major trek compared to, say, the 55 hour truck drive from the Penske base in Reading PA to Laguna Seca.

#18 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 15:24

I was saying yesterday, and have long felt, that people who live in large countries do have a very different view of distance to us, on this tiny island, and a different mindset in many ways.

I have been trying to find my McRae photographs (which may have been lost in the gargantuan LAT archives) and my Penske at 2, then 4, Factory Road. They are here somewhere, but have re-hidden themselves.

#19 MCS

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 15:51

I couldn't agree more with the geography comments made by Nigel and Tony - it is truly a perspective/local knowledge thing.

I work for an American company and, certainly no disrespect, but they regularly quiz distances and times of journeys - a typical comment being "why does it take so long to travel such a short distance?"

Slightly OT, I once stayed in a rented villa near Tampa many, many years ago and there was an incredible watercolour of the McRae GM1 stationary with driver (in car) and mechanics around it, framed and hanging - somewhat bizarrely - in the laundry room. It was an original, but no idea who the artist was. Wish I had taken a photograph of it...

Edited: i) second sentence and ii) the name Stepney (Ken?) keeps coming back - was it his drawing?

Edited by MCS, 17 July 2013 - 18:45.


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#20 kayemod

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 16:18

I have been trying to find my McRae photographs (which may have been lost in the gargantuan LAT archives) and my Penske at 2, then 4, Factory Road. They are here somewhere, but have re-hidden themselves.


I'm still slightly confused by the chronology Tony, you were there (or somewhere) and I wasn't, or at least not at the same time, but I don't think you could have seen a McRae at Factory Road, surely it was at Balena Close Creekmoor, which later became the original Penske set-up. The Upton Industrial estate wasn't built until the mid-80s, that was when Penske must have moved there. I can remember when it was all fields, as far as the eye could see, but I find I'm saying that quite a lot these days...


#21 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 16:40

I guess the perception that Poole is a long way from anywhere is a peculiarly British one anyway. In reality, to anyone from outside this small island, a two hour drive to get to, say, Heathrow or Silverstone from Poole is hardly a major trek compared to, say, the 55 hour truck drive from the Penske base in Reading PA to Laguna Seca.


Good point about our sense of scale Nigel, 5 mins stuck in traffic is an abhorrent nightmare to me, over there 3 hours stuck in traffic is getting off lightly  ;)

#22 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 18:34

I'm still slightly confused by the chronology Tony, you were there (or somewhere) and I wasn't, or at least not at the same time, but I don't think you could have seen a McRae at Factory Road, surely it was at Balena Close Creekmoor, which later became the original Penske set-up. The Upton Industrial estate wasn't built until the mid-80s, that was when Penske must have moved there. I can remember when it was all fields, as far as the eye could see, but I find I'm saying that quite a lot these days...

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Edited by Tony Matthews, 17 July 2013 - 18:36.


#23 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 19:56

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I am now also confused Tony is this where 'the' McRae Factory was, is it possible Penske bought two premises from McRae ? :confused:

#24 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 20:50

I am now also confused Tony is this where 'the' McRae Factory was, is it possible Penske bought two premises from McRae ? :confused:

Well, Art, I don't pretend to have a perfect memory, and it could well be that kayemod is right, and I saw the GM1 at Balena Close, but my strong impression is that, as I turned into Factory Road to visit Penske Cars for the first time, I thought "'Ello, 'ello, I've been HERE before!" and that the building was the same. But then, most smallish industrial units look similar. I may have details of the McRae address, but as I was working for LAT the only thing that mattered was the Job Number! The only reason that I have duplicate work details from the LAT days is that I wanted to cover my back - fortuitously, as it happens, as I was confronted by an incandescent W J Tee one afternoon, who believed that I had been up to no good. As worksheets were handed in at the end of each week, I wouldn't have been able to prove my innocence without my copy.

Sorry about the ramble... If anymore memories or photographs surface, I'll post them.

#25 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 20:54

Apart from Penske's address changing as they moved/bought more units, I seem to remember (could be mistaken) that the numbering system was changed. That happened to me as a small boy, left 28 Tedder Road in Hemel Hempstead to go to boarding school, and came home to number 42 - same house. Never got over the shock...


#26 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 21:06

I've e mailed Nick to ask him for dates and addresses so that hopefully we can clear this up. I also asked him if he knew of McRae ever having premises in Factory Road. I only ever worked at no.4, and I see from t'net that Field Engineering, who are now in the neighboring premises that Penske occupied before no.4, is shown as being in no. 10, so Lord knows how the numbering system works. Hopefully Nick will be able to provide the answers.

#27 arttidesco

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 21:09

Well, Art, I don't pretend to have a perfect memory, and it could well be that kayemod is right, and I saw the GM1 at Balena Close, but my strong impression is that, as I turned into Factory Road to visit Penske Cars for the first time, I thought "'Ello, 'ello, I've been HERE before!" and that the building was the same.

Sorry about the ramble... If anymore memories or photographs surface, I'll post them.


Well if your correct it won't be the first time I have the details in a blog wrong, I started out with Balena Close for the blog and will just have to put a note at the bottom that some confusion has arisen :blush:

#28 kayemod

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 22:24

Well if your correct it won't be the first time I have the details in a blog wrong, I started out with Balena Close for the blog and will just have to put a note at the bottom that some confusion has arisen :blush:


I'm wondering if the Upton estate was built in two stages and some units were there earlier, but Poole Council's website says that it all dates from the mid 80s. I was a regular, almost daily visitor to Balena Close, mainly FKS Fibreglass next door to Penske who did all their bodies, and I never heard any mention of any additional Penske or McRae premises, certainly manager Heinz Hofer always seemed to be in residence at Balena Close, when he was in the Country. Don't know if anyone else on here remembers Heinz, but he was a really nice guy, constantly puzzled but always uncomplaining about the profound cultural differences between the USA and Dorset. He had a yellow Z-28 Camaro, and a Lotus Cortina in the proper white/green colours. He drove them both "enthusiastically", I only ever accepted a lift from him once...


#29 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 22:41

It is possible, but I think unlikely, that I got the Unit number wrong on that first invoice, but I'm certain that the road is correct. From that first visit to Penske Cars in 1978 I never went to any other road than Factory Road, just different units, first change being to number 2, then 4. The last unit, 4, had a driveway to the left leading to parking at the rear, and I think 4 and 2 were opened up to make one bigger unit.


#30 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 07:44

This is what I got from Nick Goozée:

"When I started at Penske Cars (Sept 24th. 1974!) they only had one 1500 sq ft unit in Balena Close, Creekmoor. In 1975 we rented another unit of the same size to house the race car preparation. The two units were divided by a glass fibre company who also made the body work for the Penske F1 car.
The first unit was originally used by Len Terry where he produced his F5000 Leda car. This was taken over by McRae who in Jan '74 sold it to Penske, when Penske Cars (originally known as Starlight Motors) was created.

We moved to Factory Road in 1977, Unit 2. This was a new build 5000 sq ft Unit, and when we arrived there were only a few Units built. Unit 4 (and 4a) which we bought in June 1984 was the last in the line, only the Builder and Developer Morrish & Cummings were opposite, adjacent to the Brewery distribution Depot. McRae never had a facility on the Factory Rd. Estate, and as far as I am aware Creekmoor was the only facility he had in the UK. Hope that helps."



I think the no.8 on Tony's invoice is probably a misleading error.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 18 July 2013 - 07:51.


#31 arttidesco

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:02

This is what I got from Nick Goozée:

"When I started at Penske Cars (Sept 24th. 1974!) they only had one 1500 sq ft unit in Balena Close, Creekmoor. In 1975 we rented another unit of the same size to house the race car preparation. The two units were divided by a glass fibre company who also made the body work for the Penske F1 car.
The first unit was originally used by Len Terry where he produced his F5000 Leda car. This was taken over by McRae who in Jan '74 sold it to Penske, when Penske Cars (originally known as Starlight Motors) was created.

We moved to Factory Road in 1977, Unit 2. This was a new build 5000 sq ft Unit, and when we arrived there were only a few Units built. Unit 4 (and 4a) which we bought in June 1984 was the last in the line, only the Builder and Developer Morrish & Cummings were opposite, adjacent to the Brewery distribution Depot. McRae never had a facility on the Factory Rd. Estate, and as far as I am aware Creekmoor was the only facility he had in the UK. Hope that helps."


Thanks for settling that Nigel, please pass on my thanks to Nick :up:

Here is a link to the blog :- http://www.psychoontyres.co.uk/balena-clos...penske-pc1-001/

Thanks to all who have contributed to the blog through this thread :smoking:

#32 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:16

Thanks for settling that Nigel, please pass on my thanks to Nick :up:

Hear hear. (A bit OT, but) back in 1993 our motor club arranged to have a guided tour of the Penske facility at Poole, and when we arrived we were amazed to find that it was Nick himself taking us round. He did us proud - it was an excellent day and Nick came across as a lovely friendly guy.

Edited by Tim Murray, 18 July 2013 - 08:25.


#33 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:35

manager Heinz Hofer always seemed to be in residence at Balena Close, when he was in the Country. Don't know if anyone else on here remembers Heinz, but he was a really nice guy, constantly puzzled but always uncomplaining about the profound cultural differences between the USA and Dorset. He had a yellow Z-28 Camaro, and a Lotus Cortina in the proper white/green colours. He drove them both "enthusiastically", I only ever accepted a lift from him once...


He was far before my time, of course, but I've heard some stories and it was his driving that was his eventual undoing.
He had an interesting background - he was originally Roger's ski instructor. I suppose Roger thought his ability to speak several languages would be useful for the F1 project.

Puts me in mind of another RP story from years ago. The interiors of all Penske facilities have always been immaculately painted. One day Roger appeared at the foot of a ladder in the Penske Cars factory in Poole. At the top of the ladder was Bob, a local painter and decorator, painting away. Roger notices everything, and the quality of Bob's work hadn't passed him by. Bob glances down and sees this American guy at the bottom of the ladder, and has no idea who he is. "I want you to come and paint my house." Bob thinks the guy is taking the mickey and sarcastically dismisses Roger with a "Yeah, right...". Roger is very insistent and before he knows it Bob is indeed on the payroll and up a ladder in New Jersey, then Reading, Pennsylvania, and is still over there... The point being, I suppose, that if Roger thinks you're a "good guy", whatever your skills and background, he will want you on board.

#34 ensign14

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:05

Whenever I hear Roger Penske stories, I always get the impression that time flows more slowly for him. In that he can assess things in seconds that it would take others minutes to appreciate.

#35 ghinzani

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:13

QUOTE
With virtually no reference to Terry they sold the Poole establishment lock, stock and barrel to McRae so that he could build and sell replicas (called GM1) of the car that was doing so well.

In hardly a cheerful frame of mind, Terry transferred Design Auto to his attractive self-designed home above nearby Wimborne.


Any ideas where that is? I drive through Wimborne most days on my way to Poole to work. Theres some great 60's/70's architecture in those areas, for those who like such things...


#36 arttidesco

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:52

The point being, I suppose, that if Roger thinks you're a "good guy", whatever your skills and background, he will want you on board.


:cool:


#37 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 10:23

I think the no.8 on Tony's invoice is probably a misleading error.

I have suggested that the '8' could be wrong, and that I might have mistaken Balena Close for 2 Factory Road, so I'm not unduly embarrassed by my errors. It was six years between visits, and as I said, most industrial units are alike. The 8 was probably my secretary/wife misreading my hand-written 2. She was a medical secretary and used to typing things accurately and always checking, but this discipline seemed to desert her when she typed my invoices! Never mind, it got there, and I was always paid promptly by Penske Cars.

Re Nigel's story about RP and Bob the Painter, this exactly sums up my experiences with him, and my opinion of him, a very special person to work for.

#38 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:01

It may well have been no. 8 at some time. Field Engineering, which is next door to no.4, is listed as being in no.10!! Dozzet's a strange place....

#39 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:24

I believe Bournemouth is actually in Devon...

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#40 arttidesco

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:25

I have suggested that the '8' could be wrong, and that I might have mistaken Balena Close for 2 Factory Road, so I'm not unduly embarrassed by my errors. It was six years between visits, and as I said, most industrial units are alike.


Thanks for contributing Tony :up:

#41 kayemod

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 15:25

I have suggested that the '8' could be wrong, and that I might have mistaken Balena Close for 2 Factory Road, so I'm not unduly embarrassed by my errors. It was six years between visits, and as I said, most industrial units are alike.


Does this ring any faint bells Tony?

Posted Image

This is how that corner of Balena Close looks today, the small unit to the right is the original Penske UK base, formerly McRae Cars, and I think it's the only place in Poole that you'd ever have seen a GM1. The three parked cars more or less cover the width of the premises, I think Nigel said it was 1500 sq ft, so it went back some way. The 'Elegance' unit to the left of Penske was once FKS Fibreglass, later Griffin Design. My ex-Specialised Mouldings chum stylist Jim Clark worked at FKS, and as well as Penske's stuff, they also did almost everything for the Gulf GT40s and Mirages among others, their unit extended leftwards to fill the corner of the block. Penske later rented an identical unit to the right of the pic, which doubled their floor area, after some of the dividing wall was removed, they used to run their F1 operation out of that.

My earliest memories of all this date from the early 70s. Balena Close is a twisty cul-de-sac, today was the first time I've been right to the end of it in over 30 years, and as far as I can remember it's hardly changed at all.

#42 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 18:46

Not really, Rob. It is obvious that I went there in 1972 and not Factory Road, and that I went to Factory Road in 1978, probably to No. 2 that was then called No. 8! I would have used Google Earth Ground Level, but GE is playing up at the moment, or this bleedin' PC is, as I cannot get to ground level at Balena Close, and I can't get lower than a couple of miles over Factory Road before it all gets blurry. If I stumble across my Penske factory photos I'll post anything of interest, but I assume the McRae photos stayed at LAT, where detail engineering photos were not regarded with the same enthusiasm as the racing shots.

#43 Thekirkshop

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 14:49

Thanks very much to everyone who has contributed to this thread: The topic has always been one of great interest to me, ever since I was a schoolboy in the 70s and being given an encyclopaedia of motoring, and learning there was a racing car factory near where I grew up. I remember visiting Poole on a shopping trip with my Mum (A dedicated racing fan since the 1940s, and member of the committee which set up the Gurston Hillclimb) and looking out of the car hoping to see the Penske Factory, not realising that even Poole is a big enough place to make this highly improbable! Thanks again, and Tony: If you have any more photos it would be great to see them, I studied your shots of the PC9B more for the factory background than for the car itself!

#44 Tony Matthews

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 15:34

How can I let you down gently, Tks? I can't, so here goes - the PC9B was photographed at the Reading, PA, facility... However, I have a lot of stuff from the Upton factory, including a sort of 'photo essay' of the place, taken in order to paint a sort of montage for RP, which was never actually done. I'll see what I can do...

#45 Thekirkshop

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 16:00

Doh! Can feel my ears burning a bit there! Yes would be great to see any Poole pics you may have, thanks again, Chris.

#46 Tony Matthews

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 16:24

An easy mistake to make, and compared with some that have been made already, not a biggie. As I have said, most industrial units look the same, even more so from inside!

#47 Tony Matthews

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 16:05

It seems that I was sending invoices to Penske cars at 8 Factory Road until 1985, and then 4 Factory Road from 1987 onwards. There doesn't seem to be one addressed to #2 at any stage. When I decided, as the invoice folders were heading for a black bin liner 18 months ago, that perhaps I should keep them for a little longer, it didn't occur to me that they would ever come in useful!

#48 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 21:32

I'm suspicious of this business of the original site in Factory Road being called no.2, because it's all based on an assumption I introduced in my early post, i.e. that it would probably be called no.2 because it was next to no.4. I know Nick said it was no.2 too, but that might simply have been his memory playing tricks because we did actually have a small unit called "Unit 2" deeper on the estate which we used for storage and doing twist tests.

I have the occasional beer with another Penske old lag who was around in those early days. I'll see if he can remember whether the original place in Upton was called no.2, no.8 or (as it is now known) no.10.

#49 Tony Matthews

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 23:23

OT slightly, but I have a photograph of a twist test taking place at (I think) #4!