62 replies to this topic

[Jimisgod]

Since there has been much talk of 'peak' talent and speed, particularly the voices saying Alonso and Kimi may have passed it, maybe we ought to discuss just when other drivers hit their peak.

Prost certainly was on top form in 1986, and I'd peg 2000 as Schumacher's best year.

[F1ultimate]

Their one lap speed might have passed it but points are made on Sundays and that's where their experience shine. They are right up there in points with Rosberg, Vettel and Lewis.

[Totall73]

Since there has been much talk of 'peak' talent and speed, particularly the voices saying Alonso and Kimi may have passed it, maybe we ought to discuss just when other drivers hit their peak.

Prost certainly was on top form in 1986, and I'd peg 2000 as Schumacher's best year.

Schumi was about 32 in 2000 when he won his 3rd WDC. He continued to win them until 2004 when he was about 36. In those days driving with the V10 engine cars with much more power and grip was physically much more demanding than driving nowadays and he had no problems with it. Therefore in my opinion the current cars actually favour elder, hugely experienced drivers like Kimi, Fernando etc.

[DanardiF1]

Schumacher was at his absolute best in 1998 for me. He maintained that into 99 and 2000 but he reached a peak very few will reach in 98.

[rasul]

Schumacher was at his absolute best in 1998 for me. He maintained that into 99 and 2000 but he reached a peak very few will reach in 98.

Yes, that's about right.
It seems most drivers reach their peaks at 28-30. Lewis and Nico are likely at their peaks now.
Vettel will likely reach his peak only in 2-4 years.

[noikeee]

Gilles Villeneuve - 1981 (age 31)
Piquet - 1981 (age 29)
Rosberg - 1983 (age 35)
Prost - 1986 (age 31)
Berger - 1988 (age 29)
Mansell - 1992 (age 39)
Senna - 1993 (age 33)
M. Schumacher - 1996 (age 27)
D. Hill - 1997 (age 37)
Hakkinen - 1998 (age 30)
J.Villeneuve - 1998 (age 27)
Frentzen - 1999 (age 32)
Coulthard - 2001 (age 30)
R. Schumacher - 2001 (age 26)
Barrichello - 2003 (age 31)
Montoya - 2003 (age 28)
Trulli - 2004 (age 30)
Raikkonen - 2005 (age 26)
Heidfeld - 2007 (age 30)
Massa - 2008 (age 27)
Webber - 2008 (age 32)
Hamilton - 2009 (age 24)
Kubica - 2010 (age 26)
Button - 2011 (age 31)
Alonso - 2012 (age 31)
Vettel - 2013 (age 26)

Right this took a bit too much effort, can you tell I'm bored? Obviously all are veeeeery subjective, I'm torn myself on a few choices, and all contemporary drivers may yet hit their peak so I just chose what I felt was their better season so far. But I think all may very well have hit their peak (yes even Vettel, I think there's little he could further improve on what he's doing and may be at his absolute best right now).

Edited by noikeee, 04 August 2013 - 12:16.

[Briz]

Vettel seems very mature for his age both on and off track, maybe he got good mentors or he managed to learn from his success instead of getting spoilt by it, whatever. I think he might be at his peak or close to it already. Hamilton is amazing since 2012, he managed to learn a lot from the disastrous 2011 I think and is probably at his best now. Rosberg? I don't think so, I think he needs to be seriously involved in the fight for the title at least one year before we can say he has reached a peak similar to the other top drivers. He's not had the chance to even test his maturity as a campaigner yet.

By the way wasn't Schumacher pretty amazing in 1995 already? He had a great season, the 3 collisions he was involved in were no fault of his own.

[tmzxaar]

Webber - 2008 (age 32)
Hamilton - 2009 (age 24)

Whaaat?

I would go for :

Webber - 2010 (age 34)
Hamilton - 2012 (age 27)

[noikeee]

Whaaat?

I would go for :

Webber - 2010 (age 34)
Hamilton - 2012 (age 27)

Well okay I can see the argument for either of those choices, I just felt Webber generally drove better with those midfield Williams and Red Bulls before he actually got a chance with a top car - with the exception of 2010 indeed - whilst Hamilton in 2009 did some cracking things with a McLaren that was just total rubbish at the start of the year and generally made less boneheaded moves that in the previous year he actually won the title.

Edited by noikeee, 04 August 2013 - 12:56.

[Anderis]

Whaaat?

I would go for :

Webber - 2010 (age 34)
Hamilton - 2012 (age 27)

Agree with Hamilton, but about Webber I'm not sure. I think he had very good 2008 and in 2010 he was flattered by championship-winning car and Vettel having far more car reliability problems than him. I find it difficult to chose Webber's best season. Could be 2009 as well- perhaps closer to Vettel than in 2010, but again, Vettel was inexperienced then.

[ElJefe]

Gilles Villeneuve - 1981 (age 31)
Piquet - 1981 (age 29)
Rosberg - 1983 (age 35)
Prost - 1986 (age 31)
Berger - 1988 (age 29)
Mansell - 1992 (age 39)
Senna - 1993 (age 33)
M. Schumacher - 1996 (age 27)
D. Hill - 1997 (age 37)
Hakkinen - 1998 (age 30)
J.Villeneuve - 1998 (age 27)
Frentzen - 1999 (age 32)
Coulthard - 2001 (age 30)
R. Schumacher - 2001 (age 26)
Barrichello - 2003 (age 31)
Montoya - 2003 (age 28)
Trulli - 2004 (age 30)
Raikkonen - 2005 (age 26)
Heidfeld - 2007 (age 30)
Massa - 2008 (age 27)
Webber - 2008 (age 32)
Hamilton - 2009 (age 24)
Kubica - 2010 (age 26)
Button - 2011 (age 31)
Alonso - 2012 (age 31)
Vettel - 2013 (age 26)

Right this took a bit too much effort, can you tell I'm bored? Obviously all are veeeeery subjective, I'm torn myself on a few choices, and all contemporary drivers may yet hit their peak so I just chose what I felt was their better season so far. But I think all may very well have hit their peak (yes even Vettel, I think there's little he could further improve on what he's doing and may be at his absolute best right now).

Interesting list and I agree with most of it, apart from Senna and Schumacher. I would say that '91 was the absolute peak season, when he won the WDC in an inferior McLaren. Williams had a much better car that year, but he still managed to win the championship with quite a margin. Afterwards Senna also declared that he had found a new sense of confidence from his results that season. Schumacher in '96 had some remarkable performances and even managed to score three wins in that Barnard designed "shitbox" (quote from Irvine). I do however think that 2000 was Schumacher hitting his peak. The McLaren was faster, Hakkinen has some sensational drives and also Ferrari had some reliability issues and just plain bad luck. Despite the critics writing him off, he still managed to bounce back and motivate the team to win the WDC.

[George Costanza]

Schumacher's peak driving? 1998. He put on stunning drives. Hungary 1998 is an example, British GP in the wet, Japan 1998 before the tire blowout, and Spa before the crash.... Yeah, on pure race craft, 1998 wins.

His best year overal? 2000 by far. I know 2002 and 2004, but they were not as good or brilliant as 2000. To me, 2000 is the Schumacher standard, those qualifying battles in a slower Ferrari vs Mika (DC even in Canada 2000) were quite unbelieveable, and his brillaint pole on the very first attempt in Hungary 2000 and the last three races...

Alonso? 2012 by far.

Vettel? yet to come, IMO.

Edited by George Costanza, 05 August 2013 - 02:28.

[George Costanza]

Vettel seems very mature for his age both on and off track, maybe he got good mentors or he managed to learn from his success instead of getting spoilt by it, whatever. I think he might be at his peak or close to it already. Hamilton is amazing since 2012, he managed to learn a lot from the disastrous 2011 I think and is probably at his best now. Rosberg? I don't think so, I think he needs to be seriously involved in the fight for the title at least one year before we can say he has reached a peak similar to the other top drivers. He's not had the chance to even test his maturity as a campaigner yet.

By the way wasn't Schumacher pretty amazing in 1995 already? He had a great season, the 3 collisions he was involved in were no fault of his own.

Schumacher's 1995 is up there for sure. in a slower car than the Williams. He would have won 12 times in 1995, IMO. He was that good in the Benetton Renault. But I still say 2000 was his very top peak.

[DrivenF1]

Whaaat?

I would go for :

Webber - 2010 (age 34)
Hamilton - 2012 (age 27)

Webber broke his leg before the start of the 2009 season, I think 2008 was his peak as he never seemed to be as consistent. It is a difficult call though.

[Jackmancer]

How the F can you tel that active drivers are past their peak?
Maybe for Webber/Massa it's easy to say, but Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are still winning races.

[Atreiu]

Schumacher was at his absolute best in 1998 for me. He maintained that into 99 and 2000 but he reached a peak very few will reach in 98.

Schumacher was very good in 1998, but, IMO, his peak was clearly from 2000 through 2002.


Once he got the upperhand of Hakkinen, nobody really got a glimpse of Schumacher until 2003.

[Ruusperi]

Bumping this, because I was thinking about this subject, and sure enough, there was already a thread for it.

----------------

 

Has Verstappen hit his peak this year? It certainly looks like it.

But it's very difficult to estimate when the drivers are actually reaching their peak, because if that happens while they are driving a bad car, it really doesn't show. Did Alonso actually hit his peak in his McLaren-Honda years? Or Vettel while he was in Ferrari?

 

One method to measure drivers' peak is how clearly they beat their team mates. So for example, in 2015 Hamilton had 80 points advantage over Rosberg after securing his title at Austin. Next year Rosberg went to win the championship, so it wasn't like Rosberg was a mediocre driver. So did Hamilton peak in 2015? Maybe.

[eibyyz]

How would you define Mario's and Emmo's peak?  

Edited by eibyyz, 31 July 2023 - 14:57.

[Anderis]

Bumping this, because I was thinking about this subject, and sure enough, there was already a thread for it.

----------------

 

Has Verstappen hit his peak this year? It certainly looks like it.

But it's very difficult to estimate when the drivers are actually reaching their peak, because if that happens while they are driving a bad car, it really doesn't show. Did Alonso actually hit his peak in his McLaren-Honda years? Or Vettel while he was in Ferrari?

 

One method to measure drivers' peak is how clearly they beat their team mates. So for example, in 2015 Hamilton had 80 points advantage over Rosberg after securing his title at Austin. Next year Rosberg went to win the championship, so it wasn't like Rosberg was a mediocre driver. So did Hamilton peak in 2015? Maybe.

I think Verstappen entered his peak around 2020/2021 but I may be forced to verify this claim after a few years considering the fact he's still a pretty young driver.

 

Hamilton's peak was from 2014 to 2020, I would say. His 2012 was very good but 2011 pretty bad and 2013 not great by his standards. It feels like he reached new levels of consistency and tyre management in the V6 era. But by 2021 it felt like he was making mistakes under pressure a bit more often again, although his decline has not been big.

[blackmme]

How would you define Mario's and Emmo's peak?  

 

That's a very good question and clearly for those two legends there is an optimum point on the graph between the different plots of raw speed and vast experience (and perhaps motivation)!

 

Emmo was 74, gelling with the M23 so quickly and delivering such a season long consistent performance was tremendously impressive.

Mario is much harder to pin down, even at his F1 peak of 77/78 (the years but almost the cars  ) he was still error prone so I suspect he was actually at his peak as a driver was in 83/84/85 and therefore F1 never got to see Mario at his peak.

 

Regards Mike 

[Collombin]

I would argue 1966 as peak Mario, he dominated.

[flatlandsman]

You can have peaks very late in life.  Toni Cairoli was at his quickest in hie late 30's

 

Steve Hislop, John Reynolds were winning BSB races in their late 30s And great fitness is needed there. 

 

I think you could Senna dropping off his in early 94, Prost was clearly doing only as much as he needed in 93, but was still quick. Schumacher had clearly gone past his on his comeback but could still do enough to warrant his place. Peaks can last months or years I think depends on desire and talent and will to win. 

[AlexPrime]

Michael's pick was 1997 IMO, sadly tarnished by what happened in Jerez. But he shouldn't have fought for the championship with that car. Even 1998 was not that impressive, because of some the fightbacks of Ferrari were because of tyre war.
Fernando's 2012 was equally impressive, minus the final race debacle. Both drivers did wonders. 
Mika Hakkinen I believe had his best days in the second half of 2000. He was still unaccustomed to title fight in 1998 and fragile in 1999. Early 2000 he was tired, but what a comeback he made. 
Hamilton's best season for me is his first, 2007 he looked like an alien. Lack of experience cost him dearly in the end, though.
Raikkonen was most impressive in 2005.
Vettel is a strange case, maybe 2010 was his best season for me. The car was too strong of a factor in 2011 and 2013, 2012 he was missing in some of the races. 2010 wasn't perfect, either, but I think a lesser man would have cracked after so many reliability retirements while leading. 2015 was also very good season, later however the drama of Ferrari broke him
Max maybe is on his peak now, maybe he will reach it later, but those wins in RBR during the Merc era were unbelievable.

Rosberg and Hill (the sons) really made spectacular seasons during their championship years. Jenson Button on the other hand IMO was more impressive in 2011 than in 2009, when he seemed vulnerable.
Sadly, I was too little during the era of Prost, Senna and Mansell to give opinion.

[George Costanza]

Max's peak is definitely now.

Edited by George Costanza, 31 July 2023 - 16:40.

[George Costanza]

Regarding Michael, any season from 1997-2000 would work. As I said ten years ago. Wow. lol.

Edited by George Costanza, 31 July 2023 - 16:43.

[Coral]

Max's peak is definitely now, Lewis's was in 2018, Michael's was 2000 I reckon.

[George Costanza]

Max's peak is definitely now, Lewis's was in 2018, Michael's was 2000 I reckon.

Lewis would be 2007-2008 or 2015 or 2017.

Edited by George Costanza, 31 July 2023 - 17:00.

[Beri]

Ones peak can only be defined if ones career is over or declining. Arguably Alonso's peak was 2006/2007, yet one would also describe his 2010 to 2014 tenure to be also of great skill. If Verstappen has hit his peak, at age 25(?), will be clear in the following years to come.

[solochamp07]

I think there is still a lot to come from max but I fear he will grow bored quickly if nobody can raise their game enough to give him a challenge.

[juicy sushi]

I would argue 1966 as peak Mario, he dominated.

This is the very tricky thing with Mario, as his early period before F1 and his period after F1 are a driver in very different places, but still brilliant, and arguably in both periods he was better than he was in F1.  

[AustinF1]

For those of you saying Max is at his peak, are you really saying he can't or won't get any better than he is now? I have my doubts about that. I think he can get even better.

[RacingFan10]

For those of you saying Max is at his peak, are you really saying he can't or won't get any better than he is now? I have my doubts about that. I think he can get even better.

 

IMO you reach a peak depending (amongst other things) on your debut age, and Max debut in F1 with only 17 years old   so his peak should come (and has come) sooner than usual. This is his 9th season in F1, young yet very experienced, and I think he is already in his peak... and it might last who knows how many years. He's almost a flawless machine now, very fast all the time, hardly makes any mistakes at all, overtakes anyone easily and cleanly, including his team mate in the same car, and then proceeds to lap 1s faster... How on earth can he improve further?

Edited by RacingFan10, 31 July 2023 - 18:02.

[juicy sushi]

He's fast, but he's not really shown himself to be flawless.  It's very easy to confuse the car with the driver when the results are good.

[messy]

Lewis would be 2007-2008 or 2015 or 2017.

Nah, God, definitely the latter and probably 2018-20 I’d say was absolute Lewis at the peak of his powers. In 2007/08 he was quick but still quite raw, fast forward a decade and he was far, far more complete as a driver in my view.

[AustinF1]

This is interesting. A driver hwo, according to this thread, hit his peak 10+ years ago is the only driver Marko thinks can beat Max in equal equipment.

 

 

Right After Max Verstappen Decimated Sergio Perez, Helmut Marko Names ‘Only’ Driver Who Can Overtake Dutchman in Same Machinery

 

https://thesportsrus...same-machinery/

[George Costanza]

This is interesting. A driver hwo, according to this thread, hit his peak 10+ years ago is the only driver Marko thinks can beat Max in equal equipment.


Right After Max Verstappen Decimated Sergio Perez, Helmut Marko Names ‘Only’ Driver Who Can Overtake Dutchman in Same Machinery

https://thesportsrus...same-machinery/

Fernando... Not too surprising.

[Touchdown]

For those of you saying Max is at his peak, are you really saying he can't or won't get any better than he is now? I have my doubts about that. I think he can get even better.

Age is obviously on his side, but I find myself asking - what can he improve?

 

An absolutely phenomenal driver.

[monolulu]

Age is obviously on his side, but I find myself asking - what can he improve?

 

An absolutely phenomenal driver.

When he gets competition again that’s when he’ll be put to the test. Although that doesn’t look like anytime soon unfortunately.

Edited by monolulu, 31 July 2023 - 21:06.

[Radman]

Most endurance athletes peak in their early to mid 30’s, not their 20’s

[scheivlak]

Most endurance athletes peak in their early to mid 30’s, not their 20’s

That used to be the case but it's shifting to a younger age - see recent editions of the Tour de France and the cycling classics (though we of course still have to see how good Vingegaard, Pogacar, van der Poel and Van Aert will be in their thirties....)

[ForzaFormula]

Ones peak can only be defined if ones career is over or declining. Arguably Alonso's peak was 2006/2007, yet one would also describe his 2010 to 2014 tenure to be also of great skill. If Verstappen has hit his peak, at age 25(?), will be clear in the following years to come.

Alonso's peak was 2005/2006, in his element.

 

Fernando... Not too surprising.

Hamilton would have a better chance, he is able to handle inter team rivalry better than Alonso, Alonso as shown like in 2007 would probably get rattled fighting Max.

 

[George Costanza]

Alonso's peak was 2005/2006, in his element.

Hamilton would have a better chance, he is able to handle inter team rivalry better than Alonso, Alonso as shown like in 2007 would probably get rattled fighting Max.

I would think Fernando learned from that experience and would do better than he was back then. But we'll never know.

IMHO Fernando peak is 2012 as a driver. He almost won the championship in the 3rd fastest car.

Edited by George Costanza, 31 July 2023 - 21:30.

[AustinF1]

I would think Fernando learned from that experience and would do better than he was back then. But we'll never know.

IMHO Fernando peak is 2012 as a driver. He almost won the championship in the 3rd fastest car.

Yeah I don't see anything indicating Lewis handles intra-team pressure better than Alonso. But anyway ...

[Afterburner]

I think a driver's "peak" is only discernible in hindsight, because we tend to gauge it based on results rather than on their ability to perform. I would say that Alonso's best race, for example, was Hungary 2014. I would also say that he made some obvious errors in 2010 and 2012 that cost him the title (and I also think his 2012 is frequently overblown because the main reason he was in that fight was because the RBR would frequently lunch itself).

 

Having said that, if I had to pick the strongest seasons for some top drivers I've watched...

 

Raikkonen for sure peaked in 2005

Button's best season was 2011

Alonso may have been at his best in 2008

Hamilton was probably at his best in 2012 or 2015 (hard to call this one since the Merc years are all a blur)

Rosberg was at his best in 2016

Vettel definitely peaked in 2013

Verstappen is looking really good now, but see the driver above him on this list...

[ARTGP]

Kubica 2008 or 2010. 2010 was majestic but 2008 had the title challenge i suppose...

Edited by ARTGP, 01 August 2023 - 01:00.

[Leibowitz]

Nah, God, definitely the latter and probably 2018-20 I’d say was absolute Lewis at the peak of his powers. In 2007/08 he was quick but still quite raw, fast forward a decade and he was far, far more complete as a driver in my view.

He was slower in quali in the late 10s. Late 2014-2015 is his peak IMO.

[catent]

Several thoughts on this discussion ...

 

1. I highly doubt Max has peaked at this point in his career; his trajectory is still upward, which is a chilling thought given how absurdly talented and competent he is right now at this very point in time. Yeesh.

1a. Fortunately, I highly doubt Lando or Leclerc have peaked either, so despite the fact Max is insanely fast and only likely to get better (or remain at this level for quite some time), there are two other extraordinarily talented drivers of Max's age/generation who will be competing with him for the foreseeable future. That is very good for the sport. (Let's hope Leclerc's/Lando's respective teams can, in the future, give them racecars capable of competing with Max ... that would be even better for the sport).

 

2. I tend to agree with Marko's assessment that Alonso is one of the few drivers who'd give Max a run for his money in equal machinery. I also would put Lando and Leclerc in that conversation. Lando's past weekend put a bit of a damper on his momentum, and conversely, I feel more confident in Leclerc at the moment after a very impressive drive in Belgium. At this point in time, are either Lando or Leclerc quite on Max's level of pace/consistency? No. But I think both have the talent and ability - should they find themselves in a car that can challenge RBR, and should they find themselves on a team that maximizes their abilities - to properly challenge Max under the right circumstances. Going back to Alonso, I also think the same could be said of him (can properly challenge Max under the right circumstances, with the right car and the right team), although he's obviously at an entirely different stage of his career than are Lando and Leclerc. Simply do a thought experiment and put Leclerc, Lando, or Alonso in the other Red Bull at Belgium. Do any stick with Max for the entirety of the race? Seems unlikely. Maybe. Do any remain closer than Perez, and perhaps make it a legitimately interesting race re: battle for P1 into the latter stages? Yeah, I think any/all of those three could/would achieve that.

Edited by catent, 01 August 2023 - 02:00.

[Cliff]

What Marko literally said wa:. The only drivers that could challenge more would be Hamilton and Alonso, but neither would beat Max over a season in this form. He’s being misquoted everywhere.

It’s on the official F1 Nation’s podcast where he says this.

[ForzaFormula]

I would think Fernando learned from that experience and would do better than he was back then. But we'll never know.

IMHO Fernando peak is 2012 as a driver. He almost won the championship in the 3rd fastest car.

Alonso exclusive: I wouldn't want to compete against Verstappen at Red Bull | RacingNews365

 

 

 

"I respect Max a lot. At the moment, in the Red Bull environment with his team, with his experience there, I don't think that many drivers can join Red Bull and beat Max. If you took Max out of Red Bull, maybe you [would] have a better chance."

 

[messy]

He was slower in quali in the late 10s. Late 2014-2015 is his peak IMO.

He was outqualified by Rosberg in 2014 though.