91 replies to this topic

[dierome87]

I know some of the guys out there don't like spending time on the "what ifs" but since there's not much else to discuss during the summer break, I thought it would be interesting to think about what would JPM's fate have looked like had he not decided to go to NASCAR in mid 2006.

As I recall, JPM was having a far from stellar season back from 2006. Some people were of the view that he even "jumped ship" before being sacked from McLaren. Is there really any substance to this? He had a lot of incidents in the first part of the season, but he was also on the podium at Imola (where he actually outperformed Raikkonen) and Monaco. In addition, I recall reading in Autosport that the 2007 McLaren and the Bridgestone tyres would have suited JPM's characteristics perfectly. Moreover, JPM's decision to quit triggered a chain of events that resulted in Fernando Alonso & Lewis Hamilton teaming up for the 2007 season, which as we all now know, ushered the beginning of a new era in F1.

If he hadn't quit midseason, I think JPM would have completed the 2006 season in McLaren (the MP4-21 was a dog, Raikkonen didn't win any races that year). In retrospective, I think he wasn't doing horribly bad either, since PDLR's results in late 2006 were very similar to his. JPM was definitely a bit slower than Kimi Raikkonen, but I think there's definitely no shame in that (Raikkonen was at his peak back then). JPM may have even stayed at McLaren for one more season, would have picked up a couple of wins and decent results, and would have helped (or in the best case fought against) Fernando Alonso on his way to his third WDC in a row. He wouldn't have been retained for 2008 though, as 2007 McLaren test driver Lewis Hamilton would have shown by then that he was ready for a McLaren race seat.

Then, perhaps, as was reported around 2006, JPM would have gone to one of the Red Bull teams. He would have driven the 2008 STR or RBR (in lieu of Bourdais or DC) and also picked up decent results (maybe even a win like Vettel). However, I don't think he would have carried for much longer anyway. In 2010, with three children, he would have quit and perhaps become Red Bull ambassador. LOL

What's more interesting to wonder is that under this alternate reality, among other things, Kimi Raikkonen would have hardly become the 2007 WDC, Fernando Alonso wouldn't have left McLaren after one season, crashgate would probably have not happened and Kimi Raikkonen wouldn't have left Ferrari at the end of 2009. Hell, JPM may have even partnered Vettel in the RB9 in 2009!!!

In short, JPM's decision to quit changed the face of the sport as we know it. I think he made the greatest mistake of his career by going to NASCAR (as we can all see now). I think he still had a couple of good years in F1 and maybe even a shot at the WDC in 2007. His surprising decision to quit was a classic example of his short temper.

You can tell by his twitter and facebook posts that he is a very happy family man, that he enjoys his life as it is now and probably regrets nothing (that in the end is what matters). But I think we as F1 fans missed out on the chance to see him pick up his best career results.

What do you think?

[One]

might have been a WDC in Ferrari, with McDonald sponsoring.

[sopa]

Montoya would have def left McLaren after 2007 on his own accord if Alonso was No1. Montoya already wasn't fond that Kimi was the more liked guy at McLaren. He would have liked even less to see a new guy come in and become No1. Alonso and Montoya getting along well? Could have been fireworks. Maybe less than Alonso-Hamilton. You say we wouldn't have had crashgate and stuff like that, but we could have had some other -gate.

I always questioned Montoya's motivation to drive in midfield and "make up the numbers". Like Webber rather leaves F1 than continues next year in midfield. So would he have taken Red Bull for 2008 even if he wanted to continue in F1? Or would he have liked only a top seat.

Edited by sopa, 14 August 2013 - 09:11.

[teejay]

He had the raw talent to be one of the greats.

The attitude and appreciation for the politics and needs of F1 not so much.

[Tract1on]

I would be thrilled if Montoya came back to F1 in 2014, he'd be right back on the pace immediately like Kimi imo.
The guy was so fast, ballsy and exciting to watch. Sort of like a modern day Mansell.

Id loved to have seen him go to Ferrari in 2007, that would have been mega

Edited by Tract1on, 14 August 2013 - 09:44.

[hotstickyslick]

Dennis would of booted him out of McLaren eventually I think.

[handel]

Is he still fit enough to drive in F1 realistically?

Edit: Was he ever?

Edited by handel, 14 August 2013 - 09:27.

[dierome87]

Is he still fit enough to drive in F1 realistically?

Edit: Was he ever?

Nowadays he's obviously not fit (and probably too old) to go back to F1.

However, I've always found a bit unfair the criticism he recieved concerning his fitness while he was in F1. Sure, he was never the skinny jockey (like Vettel or Gutierrez) but I don't think there's any evidence that his fitness interfered with his performance on the track. He won 7 GPs during the V10 refuelling era (which is a physically more demanding formula than the current one) and yet you would never see him completely exhausted or worn out after a race.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Montoya wouldn't have stayed with McLaren in 2007. Ron Dennis was already fed up with him after his tennis accident in 2005. Montoya's announcing his NASCAR deal was only a good reason for Ron to sack him straight away, instead of having him finish the 2006 season.

[teejay]

People forget he was only a dubious decision or two away from a WDC..

[KWSN - DSM]

Montoya had loads of talent, but he never wanted to put in the hard work to excel at the top. Not in F1, and clearly not in NASCAR either. Going from being part of the discussion each preseason in regard WDC, and then winning a grand total of 2 NASCAR races over 6 seasons makes for a busted career Post Indycar (or what ever it was called when he drove there).

[ElJefe]

I think that most F1 fans really underestimate Montoya. When all the circumstances were right he was not just spectacular to watch, but he was also very hard to beat. I still maintain that going to McLaren was the worst move he could possibly make, as they were lightyears apart when it came to mentality. Such a shame really, as he easily could (and perhaps should) have won a WDC given his talent.

[alframsey]

While I always enjoyed watching JPM I was never a fan of his, in fact he annoyed me a fair amount. Fantastic raw talent though, bloody brilliant.

[wj_gibson]

Montoya was never going to be retained by McLaren for 2007 anyway. He never really "gelled" with the team (especially after telling porkies about the cause of his shoulder injury in early 2005), it doesn't look much like he would ever have been all that keen to continue anyway *(even if he'd been offered the chance to do so), and in the end there was some sort of severence clause whereby he agreed not to talk about his time at McLaren to the media.

Red Bull was rumoured to be interested (which roused Coulthard's ire no end) but I'm not sure that it was ever substantiated precisely how serious those rumours were. Maybe it was just to put a rocket up Coulthard's backside.

[Jimisgod]

Montoya?

I get a feeling that one of the manufacturers (Toyota or BMW) may have taken a chance on him in 2007 had he not gone yankee. He was better than Ralf, why not replace Halfie for that year where all he did was embarass himself?

[discover23]

He was out of mclaren no question. BMW, I am not so sure - never heard those rumors but there was certainly some interest coming from RedBull/Toro Rosso and Honda.

[Linus27]

What now for Monty as he has lost his Nascar seat?

[Winter98]

Nowadays he's obviously not fit (and probably too old) to go back to F1.

However, I've always found a bit unfair the criticism he recieved concerning his fitness while he was in F1. Sure, he was never the skinny jockey (like Vettel or Gutierrez) but I don't think there's any evidence that his fitness interfered with his performance on the track. He won 7 GPs during the V10 refuelling era (which is a physically more demanding formula than the current one) and yet you would never see him completely exhausted or worn out after a race.

Lack of fitness would have an effect on an F1 driver, probably quite a large effect.

If you have any doubt, try downhill skiing when you're out of shape. By the end of the day you're not as sharp, you don't read the terrain as well, and your reaction speed is slower.

With an F1 driver, hundredths of a second are critical, and any fatigue is going to slow down reaction times, and the accuracy of those reactions.

[dierome87]

Lack of fitness would have an effect on an F1 driver, probably quite a large effect.

If you have any doubt, try downhill skiing when you're out of shape. By the end of the day you're not as sharp, you don't read the terrain as well, and your reaction speed is slower.

With an F1 driver, hundredths of a second are critical, and any fatigue is going to slow down reaction times, and the accuracy of those reactions.

Of course. But my point is that while he was in F1, he was never out of shape. He wasn't skinny, but probably not underweight either.

Was there ever any complaint from Williams or McLaren that he wasn't fit enough to drive in F1? I don't think so.

[Zippel]

Montoya?

I get a feeling that one of the manufacturers (Toyota or BMW) may have taken a chance on him in 2007 had he not gone yankee. He was better than Ralf, why not replace Halfie for that year where all he did was embarass himself?

They would have had to pay Ralf out of his very expensive last year of his contract for someone who wasn't much faster.

Montoya really fell out of favour in 2006. I struggle to see him anywhere. Possibly Ron could have changed his mind for 2007 lacking an experienced teammate alongside Alonso (hindsight is a wonderful thing but there was some concerns about Hamo driving a McLaren in his rookie year).

[dierome87]

They would have had to pay Ralf out of his very expensive last year of his contract for someone who wasn't much faster.

Montoya really fell out of favour in 2006. I struggle to see him anywhere. Possibly Ron could have changed his mind for 2007 lacking an experienced teammate alongside Alonso (hindsight is a wonderful thing but there was some concerns about Hamo driving a McLaren in his rookie year).

Exactly. IIRC, the plan was to have Hamilton as a McLaren test driver in 2007. Montoya's contract would have been renewed just for one season, as a stop-gap solution for Hamilton.

I still think he would have had a much better season in 2007 (Bridgestone tyres, more reliable and competitive car) and that sligthly better reputation would have led him to Red Bull or Honda for the next few years.

It seems like nothing has gone right for him since 2003.

[teejay]

Getting paid millions to race cars, and being able to walk away uninjured - if that is not going right, sign me up

[dierome87]

Getting paid millions to race cars, and being able to walk away uninjured - if that is not going right, sign me up

LOL, well yeah. The thing is, nobody in 2003 expected things to go this way for him.

10 years ago people were expecting the Montoya/Raikkonen/McLaren partnership to be a return to the Senna/Prost days of the late 80s. Now, the latest rumour is that he will race in NASCAR for a team called Furniture Row Racing.

Promising...

[pingu666]

i think some f1 fans hate that he left for napcar, fact is hes been happier, his family is happier, and hes earned a decent amount to.
and they think winning in nascar is easy, when it isnt at all.

[KWSN - DSM]

I think that most F1 fans really underestimate Montoya. When all the circumstances were right he was not just spectacular to watch, but he was also very hard to beat. I still maintain that going to McLaren was the worst move he could possibly make, as they were lightyears apart when it came to mentality. Such a shame really, as he easily could (and perhaps should) have won a WDC given his talent.

I think you underestimate most F1 fans.

No one here is making him out as a talentless hack, we all know that he could and should have achieved much much more than he did, mostly the faults and reasons for that not happening Juan can find by looking in a mirror. Same as Jan Magnussen can for not achieving his potential in F1. It is hard work being on top, and sheer talent will not work in F1, they are all as or almost as talented as you.

[HaydenFan]

Dennis would of booted him out of McLaren eventually I think.

I don't think he would have made it past into 2007 with a ride. McLaren would have sent him packing after that terrible 2006 season. And where would he have gone? I remember a Red Bull rumor (which went to Webber), but seeing how Webber struggled those first two years, I don't think Montoya was the type who would have stayed in a bad ride for so long in the hope it got better (which in hindsight it did). Outside that seat, where else? A return to Williams (to replace the departing Webber)? Would they have been able to afford him and would he have wanted to take a step back to a bad seat in his prime?

He left F1 at the right time. If he stayed he would have just gone backwards.

[FredF1]

I don't think he would have made it past into 2007 with a ride. McLaren would have sent him packing after that terrible 2006 season. And where would he have gone? I remember a Red Bull rumor (which went to Webber), but seeing how Webber struggled those first two years, I don't think Montoya was the type who would have stayed in a bad ride for so long in the hope it got better (which in hindsight it did). Outside that seat, where else? A return to Williams (to replace the departing Webber)? Would they have been able to afford him and would he have wanted to take a step back to a bad seat in his prime?

He left F1 at the right time. If he stayed he would have just gone backwards.

I recall reading at the time that he really burned his bridges with Williams when he signed for McLaren by rubbing the team's nose in it. There was a story about him turning up for a BMW corporate day driving a Mercedes and announcing something along the lines of "Like it? Ron Dennis gave it to me."

[Group B]

JPM was doomed after joining Mac, which is a shame, because whilst he was a total bell-end he undoubtedly added colour and competition on track. I never liked the guy, yet have really missed him.

[wj_gibson]

I think you underestimate most F1 fans.

No one here is making him out as a talentless hack, we all know that he could and should have achieved much much more than he did, mostly the faults and reasons for that not happening Juan can find by looking in a mirror. Same as Jan Magnussen can for not achieving his potential in F1. It is hard work being on top, and sheer talent will not work in F1, they are all as or almost as talented as you.

I'm not so sure about that. Stewart simply wasn't able to run a proper 2-car operation at the time and couldn't really recognise that fact as a team. That Jackie Stewart, who had not driven in a single seater in earnest in over 20 years, saw fit to "teach" Magnussen how to drive at Oulton Park in that period rather smacks of that.

[andysaint]

Another leaver from McLaren that was down to Ron Dennis.

[mardmarium]

He had a “peculiar” personality and tons of talent. I’ve missed him in F1

[pingu666]

he is the most missed driver from f1, by far.
apart from those that died, like senna

[spa2000overtake]

He would be in the same league were Grosjean Perez Maldonado belongs.

Edited by spa2000overtake, 14 August 2013 - 18:04.

[Eff One 2002]

I would be thrilled if Montoya came back to F1 in 2014, he'd be right back on the pace immediately like Kimi imo.
The guy was so fast, ballsy and exciting to watch. Sort of like a modern day Mansell.

You and me both. JPM left F1 too early and had the natural speed, talent and ability to be one of the greats as has been said. Sometimes he was just too much of a hot-head for his own good. He actually has a personality and was a sad loss for F1 when he left in 2006.

[ApexMouse]

He would have broke a cameraman's F*****G HEAD MAN.

[KWSN - DSM]

I'm not so sure about that. Stewart simply wasn't able to run a proper 2-car operation at the time and couldn't really recognise that fact as a team. That Jackie Stewart, who had not driven in a single seater in earnest in over 20 years, saw fit to "teach" Magnussen how to drive at Oulton Park in that period rather smacks of that.

From the horses mouth:

http://www.janmagnus...2/709053800.pdf

[baddog]

I think Montoya was a very gifted and very fast driver, but his real problem was that he was:

Not committed totally to the series.
Unable to control his temper both on and off track.
Not quite as good as he thought he was.

Senna without that final 'magic' basically.

[InSearchOfThe]

he is the most missed driver from f1, by far.
apart from those that died, like senna

Bob Kubica

[JimiKart]

People forget he was only a dubious decision or two away from a WDC..

That is the sad truth, well put may I add... I loved Montoya.

If he'd have won that first race , the one he was destined to win until that oaf Verstappen plowed into him, I bet things would have gone differently.

Edited by JimiKart, 15 August 2013 - 02:59.

[lbennie]

Sort of like a fiery latino webber.

Great pace, awesome racecraft, but lacking consistency.

[Boing 2]

I'd love nothing more than to see JPM back in F1 but he'd never be able to control himself with the tyres, he's a flat-out 'maximum attack' kind of driver.

[holiday]

Overall, a wasted career given his talent, but I respect him for having the courage to turn his back on f1 and going back to where his heart really was.

[One]

Some of JPM's move against MS was so bloody exciting.

[KiloWatt]

I recall reading at the time that he really burned his bridges with Williams when he signed for McLaren by rubbing the team's nose in it. There was a story about him turning up for a BMW corporate day driving a Mercedes and announcing something along the lines of "Like it? Ron Dennis gave it to me."

spilt coffee

Edited by KiloWatt, 15 August 2013 - 10:29.

[Xpat]

It is always a loss to F1 when a driver who is exciting to watch and exciting to listen to out of the car leaves. Way too many boring corporate clones out there now. It's why Kimi is popular.

[wj_gibson]

I think that probably too much was expected of JPM. He was very much anointed as The Challenger to Michael Schumacher before so much as sitting in an F1 cockpit, simply to fulfil the need for a narrative of Champion and Challenger that is part of the hype machine of so many sports.

As early as 1995 there were articles in various sources specualting on who might the "The One" to de-throne Michael Schumacher. Perhaps it was a manifestation of the frustration of being deprived the Senna-Schumacher battle that would have charactersied the mid-90s.

[elusivef1]

Schumacher beat him physically, mentally, and on race track when Montoya clearly had a fast competitive car.

[discover23]

Schumacher beat him physically, mentally, and on race track when Montoya clearly had a fast competitive car.

not really.. Montoya owned Shumi in 02 when the Michellin tires lasted on his Williams..In 03, Montoya drove better than Shumi but Shumi had 100% reliability in all the races whereas Montoya suffered two engine failures from the race lead.

Edited by discover23, 15 August 2013 - 15:04.

[holiday]

My impression is that in wheel-to-wheel battles JPM enjoyed a 60-40 advantage, but mentally he was owned by MS who focused on the title as the larger picture, whereas Montoya suffered from aim fixation only on him. In the end, JPM was not a consistent enough challenger and only marginally better than Ralf, although he could have ended up with a little bit of luck as one time WDC in 2003.

[Tract1on]

It was really disappointing when Rubens (almost looked intentional/ extremely carelessly) bumped him off the race track in one of the final races in 2003 that effectively ruined his championship chance, he was damn close to the 2003 title.
People go on about Mclaren, but he won quite a few races there, some of them were extreemly dominant, like the one at silverstone in 2005 where he got an unfair drive through or some penalty cant quite remember what for and he drove out of his skin and beat everyone for the win.
When he had the bit between his teeth he was faster than anyone else. That Monaco win was incredible too.
Bloody Ron Dennis ruined another career like with so many others
Thing with Montoya is he needed an arm round him and people telling him they loved him. I think he would have been mega at Ferrari in 2007

My impression is that in wheel-to-wheel battles JPM enjoyed a 60-40 advantage, but mentally he was owned by MS who focused on the title as the larger picture, whereas Montoya suffered from aim fixation only on him. In the end, JPM was not a consistent enough challenger and only marginally better than Ralf, although he could have ended up with a little bit of luck as one time WDC in 2003.

Edited by Tract1on, 15 August 2013 - 15:10.