506 replies to this topic

[Dozer]

I agree and should Helmet's prediction come true (a dominant 2014), does Seb deserve to be a 5 x WDC?

 

Is he 5 times better than Lewis, Kimi and Jenson for example? In my opinion no...

[Kingshark]

Red Bull have had control of Formula 1 ever since 2011, they have the political advantage over the other teams, like Ferrari did back in the early 2000's. However, I have a feeling that's about to change soon. I predict that Mercedes are going to remove Red Bull from this throne in 2014, this is not just a gut feeling, but based off what I've seen in 2013. Next year, the power in Formula 1 will shift.

 

Just my $0.02.

[Exb]

Voted no. I think we have had some really great racing and championship battles in the last few years. Yes Red Bull and Vettel have ended up winning them but it wouldn't have taken much difference and we could have seen Alonso as a 4x champ or even Lewis a 3x champ. Last year I think McLaren was at least as fast as Red Bull and this year (apart from the last 2 races) then it was impossible to predict who would win as Fernando, Kimi, Lewis and Seb all seemed to have weekends where they could fight for the win. It has just turned out that Red Bull is the most consistent and they really seem to have found something with their low downforce settings. Fully expect Mercedes to be back fighting for the win at Singapore though and for the rest of the season now they seem to be on top of their tyre troubles (without which they would be much closer to Red Bull in the championships) I just wish McLaren had kept developing last years car as who knows how fast that would have been and if they could have challenged at all.

Red Bull have done an amazing job the last few years and I can't help but admire what they and Seb have done. That's what Formula 1 is all about, producing the best car and employing their drivers to get as many points in it as possible and Red Bull have done this perfectly. Well done to them.

(and no I'm not a Red Bull fan, I'm hoping 2014 can bring some Red Bull like dominance for McLaren)

[Winter98]

The difference between the Ferrari/MS era and RBR is that it was much more Schumacher's doing.  Schumacher built up his leads by blazing in a number of laps at some point in the race.   Whatever brilliant scheme Newey has cooked up, Vettel powers out of the DRS zone in the first lap.  Look at the RBR just pull away from Hamilton on the Kimmel straight, *no DRS*, it looks like it has an extra 20-30 magical HP?   Why isn't that difference in qualifying?  He had the race won by the time he got to Les Combes, there was no battle, just a drag race.

 

Ultimately we know it's the magical car, it wasn't Vettel's skill that made him cruise past the Mercedes on the straight.  Ferrari produced some great cars, but it was the package with Schumacher over many laps that made them *dominant*.  

 

The season began before the last couple of races.

 

Vettel made hay back when he didn't have the best car.  Now he is reaping the reward when it's his turn to have the best car.

Edited by Winter98, 08 September 2013 - 22:43.

[Winter98]

I agree and should Helmet's prediction come true (a dominant 2014), does Seb deserve to be a 5 x WDC?

 

Is he 5 times better than Lewis, Kimi and Jenson for example? In my opinion no...

 

LOL, I don't think it's a math formula (Driver Q WDC)/(Driver B WDC) = (Times better)

 

Vettel is just a little better, just enough to tilt the scales in his favour every year, although this year he has been the clear class of the field.

Edited by Winter98, 08 September 2013 - 22:46.

[hogstar]

I would say that Red Bull are somewhat surprised of how easy this season is turning out to be for them. Their rivals aren't making the necessary gains and only Mercedes look like giving them a run for their money in 2014.

[pacwest]

Red Bulls dominance has made me not as eager to watch a race. I cancelled my cable and I just download them now. Since I live in the PST timezone, when a race result is spoiled before I watch it I'm not that let down anymore.

 

Competition and variety keep my attention after all these years. Obviously, this is waning. If I was a Vettel fan I'd be thinking this is a great year I guess.

 

So, yes. I think that the same winner all the time is boring as hell. I survived the Shumacher years, I'll survive the Vettel years. 

[Kelateboy]

I agree and should Helmet's prediction come true (a dominant 2014), does Seb deserve to be a 5 x WDC?

 

Is he 5 times better than Lewis, Kimi and Jenson for example? In my opinion no...

 

Is Michael Schumacher 7x better than Hamilton? Putting a notional figure on how good each driver is compared to the other is quite pointless, IMO.

 

Seriously the difference between all drivers in F1 (apart from a few pay drivers) is no more than a few tenths only - they are all extremely good. 

[Kingshark]

Vettel is just a little better, just enough to tilt the scales in his favour every year, although this year he has been the clear class of the field.

 

Do you really think that Red Bull have had a car equal to the rest of the grid over the past few years. 

 

Considering that Vettel was "just good enough" to tilt the scales in his favor in both 2010 and 2012, despite the significant car advantage he had over his nearest rival, doesn't really show well in his image, does it?

[travbrad]

Well, 6 wins now out of 12 races. That's not really dominance to me.

Only because they were using tyres that introduced a random element to give some other teams a chance at the beginning of the season.  On the current tyres RBR has a huge edge and it going to take something strange for them to not win a race (DNF, rain, puncture, etc).  Even in Hungary where Mercedes won it looked like RBR was the fastest car.  They just got stuck in traffic and couldn't get past to use their speed.

Edited by travbrad, 09 September 2013 - 03:53.

[Winter98]

Do you really think that Red Bull have had a car equal to the rest of the grid over the past few years. 

 

Considering that Vettel was "just good enough" to tilt the scales in his favor in both 2010 and 2012, despite the significant car advantage he had over his nearest rival, doesn't really show well in his image, does it?

 

Vettel is on his way to winning his fourth WDC on the trot, in what is probably the most competitive era in F1 history.  I believe 11 cars were within one second of P1 in qualifying this weekend.

 

Just look at the list of drivers who have accomplished 4 WDCs on the trot.  I'll give you a hint:  It's a very short list, and only the very best are on it.

 

This year, SV has been in a league of his own, and he still has three or four years before he peaks.   Like it or not, SV is continuing to strengthen his claim to being the #1 driver of the post Schumacher era.

 

So yes, Vettel has been good enough to tilt the scales in his favour.

Edited by Winter98, 09 September 2013 - 04:07.

[Afterburner]

The biggest problem with F1 right now is not Red Bull's dominance but the fact that we've been watching cars essentially built to the same set of regulations for five years straight now. Watch the way the rules and the cars changed from 1994-2008 in comparison to now, and you'll realise just how stale Formula One has become regardless of the fact that Red Bull is on its way to a dual set of championships for the fourth time. Fortunately that's all going to change next year, and most sensible people will probably be satisfied even if Red Bull walks away with the titles again.

 

To complain about excellence in a sport is to completely misunderstand the concept of a sport. It's not about entertainment, it's about competition. F1 drivers and teams did not begin racing to entertain people, they did it to compete with one another. In F1, that competition occurs between the combined effort of teams and drivers. If you can't understand that and cope with the fact that it ultimately isn't about entertaining you, then go watch something else, because your entertainment is obviously a priority for you above the hard work, effort, dedication, and time away from their families that the thousands of team members in F1 put forth each and every race weekend regardless of the outcome.

[V8 Fireworks]

does Seb deserve to be a 5 x WDC?

 

Is he 5 times better than Lewis, Kimi and Jenson for example? In my opinion no...

 

So what?

 

Not a Seb fan by any means, but Vettel is very fast and delivers the result.  RBR is fast but not that perfect... still poor reliability, poor top speed.

 

If winning was so easy then how come Ferrari & Alonso can not do it?  How come Kimi & Lotus can not do it?

 

Seb & RBR does the job so they deserve the result IMO.

 

Vettel is clearly a cut above a Damon Hill or Villeneuve or Button type champion.

[fastlegs]

Red Bull's domination certainly doesn't help the sport.

 

I like the Red Bull team, however, I'd prefer to see a much closer race to both the championships.

Edited by fastlegs, 09 September 2013 - 05:38.

[ensign14]

The biggest problem with F1 right now is not Red Bull's dominance but the fact that we've been watching cars essentially built to the same set of regulations for five years straight now. Watch the way the rules and the cars changed from 1994-2008 in comparison to now, and you'll realise just how stale Formula One has become regardless of the fact that Red Bull is on its way to a dual set of championships for the fourth time.

Changing rules ought to help Red Bull, as they have more spends than anyone bar Ferrari. F1's rules barely changed from 1966 to 1983 and look how that ended up; 1982, the final hurrah of the Cosworth era, was almost random as to who would win a race.

[Kingshark]

Vettel is on his way to winning his fourth WDC on the trot, in what is probably the most competitive era in F1 history.  I believe 11 cars were within one second of P1 in qualifying this weekend.

 

Just look at the list of drivers who have accomplished 4 WDCs on the trot.  I'll give you a hint:  It's a very short list, and only the very best are on it.

 

This year, SV has been in a league of his own, and he still has three or four years before he peaks.   Like it or not, SV is continuing to strengthen his claim to being the #1 driver of the post Schumacher era.

 

So yes, Vettel has been good enough to tilt the scales in his favour.

 

I never questioned the fact that Vettel winning 4 championships would indeed make him a great, very great driver.

 

However, I do question your claim that it's been the work of SV to "tilt the scales in his favor" every year. Any top driver should have won the WDC with the RB6 and RB8. Vettel got the job done, but only just.

 

Vettel has tilted the scales in his favor? Maybe, but for how long? There's a good chance that Mercedes will overhaul Red Bull next year, and I'd love to see how SV deals with the pressure of being a champion, without driving for the best team with the best car.

[pUs]

I wouldn't call it Red Bull dominance, but in any case what has impressed me this year has been their consistency. No other team even comes close. As shown especially by Lotus and Mercedes (and to some extent Ferrari) it's quite difficult under these rules and tires to be equally competitive both in qualifying and races. With just a few exceptions, Red Bull have managed that. In my view that will probably be the reason why Vettel wins his fourth title this year. Not primarily because of outright speed, the field is very close and competitive now.

 

And no, it's not harming the sport. F1 survived 1992 and 2002 just fine.

[Forma1]

I'm just answering my own question again. Red Bull.... Red Bull were quicker than any other car with a broken front wing (Webber). What the hell? What can we call domination and cruising in an afternoon if not that? 
 

[tifosiMac]

There is no doubting that Red Bull are the best team in F1 at the moment and have been for 4 season's now. Its not just about producing the best car. You need a very good driver, a good pit crew who don't make mistakes, and the right people deciding strategy. Red Bull have been the best in all area's for a long time now. Is it harming the sport? I think any long period of dominace harms the sport to a degree as it turns a significant number of casual fans away. I suppose I can class myself as a casual fan these days as the sport doesn't excite me as much as it used to. The sport tends to go through cycles though and interest for many dips in and out. Right now I am enjoying seeing Lewis readjust to a new team and find his feet and will increase my interest when I have a little more time. I think next season we will see a more level playing field and hopefully it will be another teams turn to have a go at the title. You can't blame Red Bull for doing the best job though.

[30ft penguin]

Reading this topic I just had a flashback back to Michael Schumacher Ferrari times.

 

"one team winning that often is bad" led us to where we are, crappy "let's make F1 more entertaining for the masses" rules which just do not work.

[EthanM]

Reading this topic it struck me as strange that fans of a "sport" want to find ways to punish excellence in said sport. Waiting for Usain Bolt dominance is boring, he should run the 100m sprint in 12 inch stilettos to make the races exciting thread.

[bmardini]

The biggest problem with F1 right now is not Red Bull's dominance but the fact that we've been watching cars essentially built to the same set of regulations for five years straight now. Watch the way the rules and the cars changed from 1994-2008 in comparison to now, and you'll realise just how stale Formula One has become regardless of the fact that Red Bull is on its way to a dual set of championships for the fourth time. Fortunately that's all going to change next year, and most sensible people will probably be satisfied even if Red Bull walks away with the titles again.

 

To complain about excellence in a sport is to completely misunderstand the concept of a sport. It's not about entertainment, it's about competition. F1 drivers and teams did not begin racing to entertain people, they did it to compete with one another. In F1, that competition occurs between the combined effort of teams and drivers. If you can't understand that and cope with the fact that it ultimately isn't about entertaining you, then go watch something else, because your entertainment is obviously a priority for you above the hard work, effort, dedication, and time away from their families that the thousands of team members in F1 put forth each and every race weekend regardless of the outcome.

I like this post.

 

If F1 is a combination effort of driver, team, etc then for sure you simply cannot begrudge Vettel for his success.

 

However, I have a different take on the realities of F1 today.

 

For one, when cars go racing, there are varying competitive parameters. In most series, its comprehensive - chassis, aero, engine, suspension, tires, etc. In F1, it is dominated by aero. Overwhelmingly so. The reality is RB has mastered this set of regulations and are always a few steps ahead. Their last bastion now is the remnants of EBD, which despite the ban still leaves them with an edge in quali over the other teams.

 

Vettel has simply made the best of what was presented to him - he deserves every win and every title, and arguably he deserved the 2009 title more than JB did since the RB had a proper diffuser and not the (IMO) illegal double diffuser.

 

In 2010 and 2012 we had fake competition. Ferrari in 2010 and 2012 were only where they were because RB was unreliable. They were outright faster for a fraction of the races. Once again, the fastest car won. Mclaren botched their championship effort in 2012. So, once again, RB is just better all around.

 

So, does it hurt for F1 for one team to be so much better than everyone else? I say yes. Purely because of spectator interest. I watch F1 every week with half a dozen friends - and all of us (Ferrari fans, RB fans, Merc fans) are less interested in F1 this year than we ever were. We miss races. We miss qualifying. Its just not interesting anymore. It doesn't feel like racing anymore. Pole/win every weekend is simply assumed to be one driver. Never a good thing. Perhaps this is not a representative set of viewers, but just my $0.02...

[Supertourer]

I like this post.
 
If F1 is a combination effort of driver, team, etc then for sure you simply cannot begrudge Vettel for his success.
 
However, I have a different take on the realities of F1 today.
 
For one, when cars go racing, there are varying competitive parameters. In most series, its comprehensive - chassis, aero, engine, suspension, tires, etc. In F1, it is dominated by aero. Overwhelmingly so. The reality is RB has mastered this set of regulations and are always a few steps ahead. Their last bastion now is the remnants of EBD, which despite the ban still leaves them with an edge in quali over the other teams.
 
Vettel has simply made the best of what was presented to him - he deserves every win and every title, and arguably he deserved the 2009 title more than JB did since the RB had a proper diffuser and not the (IMO) illegal double diffuser.
 
In 2010 and 2012 we had fake competition. Ferrari in 2010 and 2012 were only where they were because RB was unreliable. They were outright faster for a fraction of the races. Once again, the fastest car won. Mclaren botched their championship effort in 2012. So, once again, RB is just better all around.
 
So, does it hurt for F1 for one team to be so much better than everyone else? I say yes. Purely because of spectator interest. I watch F1 every week with half a dozen friends - and all of us (Ferrari fans, RB fans, Merc fans) are less interested in F1 this year than we ever were. We miss races. We miss qualifying. Its just not interesting anymore. It doesn't feel like racing anymore. Pole/win every weekend is simply assumed to be one driver. Never a good thing. Perhaps this is not a representative set of viewers, but just my $0.02...

I used to watch F1 avidly and have done since 1980, I still tune in for the races but don't mind if I miss one or a Q session, so my interest is waning and I admit to struggling to stay awake during some races.

However I find myself much more interested in BTCC, Le Mans and Moto GP these days. It will be interesting to see what the worldwide TV figures are for F1 nowadays.

On a brighter note, it was good to see F1 on a proper circuit, with full grandstands and not the grey 'tarmacadromes' with rows of empty grandstands that FOM's rush to new venues has produced.

[skc]

I'm really curious about something. If next year Mercedes have the dominant car and Hamilton romps to 4 championships in exactly the same way as Vettel has, will the Merc fans that are complaining today...still be complaining about dominant car + boring races?

 

One wonders.

Edited by skc, 09 September 2013 - 07:26.

[EthanM]

I like this post.

 

If F1 is a combination effort of driver, team, etc then for sure you simply cannot begrudge Vettel for his success.

 

However, I have a different take on the realities of F1 today.

 

For one, when cars go racing, there are varying competitive parameters. In most series, its comprehensive - chassis, aero, engine, suspension, tires, etc. In F1, it is dominated by aero. Overwhelmingly so. The reality is RB has mastered this set of regulations and are always a few steps ahead. Their last bastion now is the remnants of EBD, which despite the ban still leaves them with an edge in quali over the other teams.

 

Vettel has simply made the best of what was presented to him - he deserves every win and every title, and arguably he deserved the 2009 title more than JB did since the RB had a proper diffuser and not the (IMO) illegal double diffuser.

 

In 2010 and 2012 we had fake competition. Ferrari in 2010 and 2012 were only where they were because RB was unreliable. They were outright faster for a fraction of the races. Once again, the fastest car won. Mclaren botched their championship effort in 2012. So, once again, RB is just better all around.

 

So, does it hurt for F1 for one team to be so much better than everyone else? I say yes. Purely because of spectator interest. I watch F1 every week with half a dozen friends - and all of us (Ferrari fans, RB fans, Merc fans) are less interested in F1 this year than we ever were. We miss races. We miss qualifying. Its just not interesting anymore. It doesn't feel like racing anymore. Pole/win every weekend is simply assumed to be one driver. Never a good thing. Perhaps this is not a representative set of viewers, but just my $0.02...

 

So far in 2013

Red Bull have gotten 4 out 12 poles (Mercedes have gotten the other 8)

Red Bull have won 6 out 12 races (Mercedes have won 3, Ferrari 2, Lotus 1)

 

Red Bull is in no way dominant. The problem is the others are flakey. People are used F1 being a battle between 2 teams. Rule stability means more teams are closer in performance, one team though is more consistent at delivering its potential than the others. That team is winning. Like last year, McLaren had the better car, but over the season they were flakey. Red Bull won.

[mnmracer]

I'm just answering my own question again. Red Bull.... Red Bull were quicker than any other car with a broken front wing (Webber). What the hell? What can we call domination and cruising in an afternoon if not that? 
 

'broken front wing' being a bit of an exaggeration here.

Do you really dare to claim that Vettel's win was significantly different from the other "take the lead early + win with 10 second" victories we've seen from Alonso and Hamilton this year?

[apoka]

Pole/win every weekend is simply assumed to be one driver. Never a good thing.

But at least it's not the same driver - it's usually a Merc pole and then Vettel winning.

 

I'm just kidding. I think we had many interesting races this season. However, the races were very spread out, so it sometimes felt like the season hadn't really started. After the summer break, there were high expectations for Spa and Monza, but it turned out the races were just OK, but not extremely spectacular. Moreover, the WDC is almost decided (bookies give Vettel a 95% chance to win it) - I believe that is mostly by consistency plus some recent dominance (but people are more likely to remember the previous one or two races more than the rest). Obviously, possibly not having a real WDC race is less entertaining, especially since we have a high density of races in the rest of the 2013 calendar.

 

In sum, I think people are just a bit unhappy that the tension doesn't seem to build up this year. However, in my opinion we have seen a lot of great racing over the past years and many races in which RB did not dominate. Looking at the past years, I think F1 hasn't been less interesting than 10 or 20 years ago in my opinion.

[BullHead]

It's sounding like people are using the word 'dominance', when they mean 'have a superior driver/car package'. Perhaps the question should be 'does a massively superior car/driver package ruin the sport?'

 

 

 

 

To complain about excellence in a sport is to completely misunderstand the concept of a sport. It's not about entertainment, it's about competition. F1 drivers and teams did not begin racing to entertain people, they did it to compete with one another. In F1, that competition occurs between the combined effort of teams and drivers. If you can't understand that and cope with the fact that it ultimately isn't about entertaining you, then go watch something else, because your entertainment is obviously a priority for you above the hard work, effort, dedication, and time away from their families that the thousands of team members in F1 put forth each and every race weekend regardless of the outcome.

 

nicely put.

[Gorma]

It does not hurt one bit unlike Schumi era at Ferrari where not only was one team and driver dominant the races where boring crap as well. Red Bull has never been as dominant as Ferrari those days. Webber has never placed second in the championship unlike Barrichello. Other teams and driver's are just doing a crappy job. It's much more even these days when the tyres are same of everybody. In the Schumi era Bridestone built tyres for Schumi.

Edited by Gorma, 09 September 2013 - 07:49.

[Forma1]

'broken front wing' being a bit of an exaggeration here.

Do you really dare to claim that Vettel's win was significantly different from the other "take the lead early + win with 10 second" victories we've seen from Alonso and Hamilton this year?

 

Webber had no endplate. What is it if not a breakage? Ferrari with the same damage would have been nowhere.

 

Alonso never won this year with going from the front row, then taking a coffee in middle of the race to erease his boredom. He had to fight his way up to the front. Vettel always starts from the front, then have a nice afternoon with crusing. 

[EthanM]

Webber had no endplate. What is it if not a breakage? Ferrari with the same damage would have been nowhere.

 

Alonso never won this year with going from the front row, then taking a coffee in middle of the race to erease his boredom. He had to fight his way up to the front. Vettel always starts from the front, then have a nice afternoon with crusing. 

 

Well Alonso should work on his qualifying performance then, shouldn't he? Cause in the race his car seemed perfectly capable of racing and overtaking Webber's Red Bull

[tifosiMac]

I'm really curious about something. If next year Mercedes have the dominant car and Hamilton romps to 4 championships in exactly the same way as Vettel has, will the Merc fans that are complaining today...still be complaining about dominant car + boring races?

 

One wonders.

It'll probably be different fans. I'm a Hamilton fan and have been for years now, but as much as I want to see him win a couple more championships, I don't think I'd want to see him win 4 straight. I'd probably start to favour someone more interesting to watch. I don't support teams and tend to follow drivers that take my interest. I like an underdog and Hamilton's years getting close but not winning have appealed to me.

[DarthWillie]

Do you really think that Red Bull have had a car equal to the rest of the grid over the past few years. 

 

Considering that Vettel was "just good enough" to tilt the scales in his favor in both 2010 and 2012, despite the significant car advantage he had over his nearest rival, doesn't really show well in his image, does it?

 

except for 2011, it isn't as dominant as people here claim.  Sure it is a very good car, but also very unreliable. Last year the McLaren was better but hampered by horrible operation procedures.

 

Vettel is the one making the difference in this.

[Forma1]

except for 2011, it isn't as dominant as people here claim.  Sure it is a very good car, but also very unreliable. Last year the McLaren was better but hampered by horrible operation procedures.

 

Vettel is the one making the difference in this.

 

 

Unreliable? Hmm, don't think so. Ferrari had engine probelms back in 2010 and this weekend again. RB don't have more problems reliability-wise then Ferrari.

 

Not the dominant car? EVerybody forget about  2010. That year in Hungary Vettel was about 1,3 (!!!!!) seconds faster then the next non-Red Bull man, Alonso in qualy. It is something you can just whine and cry about... 2011 is to forget again.

 

2012 and 2013? Yeah, they had not dominated every race bar Canada, Spa, Italy, Bahrain and Malaysia (For me it is more than enough), but the problem is that they have NO weakness. They are fast when it's raining, when it' hot, when it's cold as ice, they have tremedous traction, cornering speed, braking stability and NOW they have top speed as well. Lotus, Ferrari, Mercedes are fast at times, but they all have their own serious weaknesses. Alonso lost the title in 2010 and last year with a mediocre car. That was something to give credit.

Edited by Forma1, 09 September 2013 - 08:07.

[mnmracer]

Unreliable? Hmm, don't think so. Ferrari had engine problems back in 2010 and this weekend again. RB don't have more problems reliability-wise then Ferrari.

That's rich.

Care to back that up with some evidence?

[Dozer]

LOL, I don't think it's a math formula (Driver Q WDC)/(Driver B WDC) = (Times better)

 

Vettel is just a little better, just enough to tilt the scales in his favour every year, although this year he has been the clear class of the field.

 

Wow, you do realise he's drivng the best car right? That could also contribute to the lead they have in the WDC and WCC? Maybe?

[Dozer]

Reading this topic it struck me as strange that fans of a "sport" want to find ways to punish excellence in said sport. Waiting for Usain Bolt dominance is boring, he should run the 100m sprint in 12 inch stilettos to make the races exciting thread.

 

It's a shame you don't understand the post you wrote above - let me explain how the 2 cannot be a fair comparison - if Vettel was running on track beating everyone to his 4th consecutive Championship that would be 100% deserved and no one (with a brain at least) could question he deserves it, Usain isn't dominant because he has a machinery advantage...

[mnmracer]

Wow, you do realise he's drivng the best car right? That could also contribute to the lead they have in the WDC and WCC? Maybe?

Driving in the best car doesn't exclude a driver from having earned his WDC, as it hasn't for any of the legends of the sport.

[Dozer]

I'm really curious about something. If next year Mercedes have the dominant car and Hamilton romps to 4 championships in exactly the same way as Vettel has, will the Merc fans that are complaining today...still be complaining about dominant car + boring races?

 

One wonders.

 

Good question, but inter-team rivalry is what would keep the masses interested and watching fortnightly, Merc won't hire a wuss and make him be a "bitch" for Lewis so he will always have to fight (on equal terms) for pole and the win, much like we've seen so far this year, the fight in the Merc garage has been anything but boring! 

[Dozer]

Red Bull is in no way dominant. The problem is the others are flakey.

 

Please don't insult our intelligence, go away, look at the WCC table, then come back and repeat that statement

[EthanM]

It's a shame you don't understand the post you wrote above - let me explain how the 2 cannot be a fair comparison - if Vettel was running on track beating everyone to his 4th consecutive Championship that would be 100% deserved and no one (with a brain at least) could question he deserves it, Usain isn't dominant because he has a machinery advantage...

 

If you had a brain you 'd realize Mercedes' inability to carry their overwhelming quali advantage into the race is Mercedes' failure, not Red Bull being "dominant" (I find it hilarious by the way that people switch their definition of dominance as it suits them, one year Red Bull is dominant cause they get poles and idiots cause they don't win every race, next year Red Bull is again dominant when Mercedes gets 70% of the season's poles). Same applies to Ferrari's inability to qualify in positions that reflect their race pace (often fastest, second fastest car in the race).

 

Dominance is 1992. or 1993. or 2002. or 2004. or 2011. Red Bull haven't been dominant, either in 2010, 2012 or 2013. They have just been better than the rest at the details. 

 

And this season (and for the most part in 2012) Vettel has been f l a w l e s s. His only "mistake" has been a tenth in his Monaco quali lap. No other driver has come close.

[Dozer]

Driving in the best car doesn't exclude a driver from having earned his WDC, as it hasn't for any of the legends of the sport.

 

No, that's absolutely correct, but it does take the sheen off it a tad as any tier-1 driver could've replicated the same success in said best car...

 

IMO not all WDC's are equal - Kimi's 1 in the best car ('07) isn't equal to Lewis' 1 in the 2nd best car ('08), likewise Jenson's imo is worth less than Lewis/Kimi because he won his in a truly dominant car, much like Sebs 2011 title.

[Dozer]

If you had a brain you 'd realize Mercedes' inability to carry their overwhelming quali advantage into the race is Mercedes' failure, not Red Bull being "dominant" (I find it hilarious by the way that people switch their definition of dominance as it suits them, one year Red Bull is dominant cause they get poles and idiots cause they don't win every race, next year Red Bull is again dominant when Mercedes gets 70% of the season's poles). Same applies to Ferrari's inability to qualify in positions that reflect their race pace (often fastest, second fastest car in the race).

 

Dominance is 1992. or 1993. or 2002. or 2004. or 2011. Red Bull haven't been dominant, either in 2010, 2012 or 2013. They have just been better than the rest at the details. 

 

And this season (and for the most part in 2012) Vettel has been f l a w l e s s. His only "mistake" has been a tenth in his Monaco quali lap. No other driver has come close.

 

Not gonna waste my breath arguing with a Vettel soldier (slanging perosnal insults), as has been seen on here there are reasonable Vettel fans to discuss with - off to the ignore list with you sir...

[EthanM]

Not gonna waste my breath arguing with a Vettel soldier (slanging perosnal insults), as has been seen on here there are reasonable Vettel fans to discuss with - off to the ignore list with you sir...

 

Said the throwaway Hamilton fanboy account of the week

[Neolew]

Red Bull and Adrian Newey dominance does harm the sport.

 

People forget that EVERY single one of Vettel's wins including his Monza 2008 win driving for Toro Rosso was in a car designed by Adrian Newey. I am not denying that he is a good driver but not  Alonso, Hamilton and raikkonen good.

 

 

What other drivers think of Vettel's so called 'raw' talent... 

 

Alonso  

 

...but now we are fighting against Newey and, at the moment we cannot match him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hamilton 

 

 

For me, in my eyes, he(Alonso) really is a three or four times world champion. Seeing Sebastian dominate the last few races doesn't come as a surprise because the Red Bull has been dominant for the past few years. They seem to have a great capacity to improve the car. Adrian is just a genius. I can't even imagine what he's doing. He is a one-off. I've seen their speed - there was no way I could compete with that. Even if I drive at 200 per cent and crash, I can't match it.

  

 

 

yes you could say why isn't webber dominating too? Why assume both cars are created equal....... http://joesaward.wor...-as-he-sees-it/     like mark said "he(vettel) is the chosen one"

Edited by Neolew, 09 September 2013 - 12:06.

[Clatter]

Unreliable? Hmm, don't think so. Ferrari had engine probelms back in 2010 and this weekend again. RB don't have more problems reliability-wise then Ferrari.

 

Not the dominant car? EVerybody forget about  2010. That year in Hungary Vettel was about 1,3 (!!!!!) seconds faster then the next non-Red Bull man, Alonso in qualy. It is something you can just whine and cry about... 2011 is to forget again.

 

2012 and 2013? Yeah, they had not dominated every race bar Canada, Spa, Italy, Bahrain and Malaysia (For me it is more than enough), but the problem is that they have NO weakness. They are fast when it's raining, when it' hot, when it's cold as ice, they have tremedous traction, cornering speed, braking stability and NOW they have top speed as well. Lotus, Ferrari, Mercedes are fast at times, but they all have their own serious weaknesses. Alonso lost the title in 2010 and last year with a mediocre car. That was something to give credit.

Not sure what engine problems Ferrari had, but RB had problems with their gearbox all weekend.

 

So you have chosen one race from 2010 to say RB is dominant, yet RB failed to win the next 3 races. That really is a mark of dominance. 

[mnmracer]

a bunch of 2 year old quotes

Really? You just choose to ignore the praise he has gotten THIS WEEKEND from Alonso and di Montezemolo, and in Spa from Hamilton, and try to fool us with two year old quotes?

Damn, that's low.    

[ForeverF1]

Really? You just choose to ignore the praise he has gotten THIS WEEKEND from Alonso and di Montezemolo, and in Spa from Hamilton, and try to fool us with two year old quotes?

Damn, that's low.    

Both quotes were from October 2012, therefore less than one year old.

[Dozer]

Really? You just choose to ignore the praise he has gotten THIS WEEKEND from Alonso and di Montezemolo, and in Spa from Hamilton, and try to fool us with two year old quotes?

Damn, that's low.    

 

That's not a valid response to his post imo and adding in the accusation means you lost...

 

The quotes from both those Drivers are valid (as they can see the car they're chasing hence in a better position than you or I to decide what's dominant) and also highlight what a lot here have been saying, Newey is creating amazing machines (and has been for a while now) which is impossible no matter how good the driver (God himself coudn't) to overcome.

 

When you look at every relevant stat for the last 4 years (most team 1-2's in race / most 1-2's in qualifying / wcc finishing position / Webbers positions in the last 4 seasons when you strip out Alonso, Lewis and Kimi) it confirms that Red Bull as a Team is dominant and has been since 2009, if not for Brawn/Honda Vettel would be coasting to his 5th already.

Edited by Dozer, 09 September 2013 - 12:48.

[Ferrarifrevr]

In my opinion, if 2014 turns out to be another red bull domination ( a very real possibility ) then I think it could harm the sport in terms of tv viewing which is really where F1 earns it's big bucks. If under the new regs,which are completely changing the face of F1 ( engine etc ) coupled ing lower preference on aerodynamics, Red bull still manage to run away with the titles then it's hard not to lose interest........just saying...