492 replies to this topic

[HoldenRT]

The car or Vettel?  Both.  And they have both grown together.  It's not as simple as Alonso hopping in and going just as quick.  It's tailored to what he likes and he understands it very well.  They need to work together and lately, Vettel has had the car on a string.

[Moosed]

 

Perhap with the right driver that car would have dominated?? Remember, Lewis has never proven himself in a midfield team so we have no idea how good he really is.

 

 

DId you miss the start of the 2009 season ?

[Bruce]

 

Question for Vettel haters: What would Vettel have to do before you think he's one of the best drivers at the moment..or maybe the best? He can't change his team mate and he has already proven him self in Toro Rosso.

 

First Niceone, I'm not a "Vettel hater" - though you might THINK I am because I DO think that his previous 2 WDCs were largely down to having a superior car to his competition. - more so in 2011, and I think that it is pretty clear that this year the car has evolved into (but wasn't consistently so all year) by far the best machine on the track. 

 

I think also that most would agree that he is one of the best out there - in fact - if you ask me, Alonso and Vettel are the best drivers out there, with Raikkonen, Hamilton and Rosberg close behind and better on the right day... 

 

This does not mean, however, that when Vettel wins a race as easily as he won today that all of us will feel constrained to pretend that his incredible domination and advantage were all down to innate talent. Trying to write the car out of the equation would be as silly as saying that anyone could do what Vettel does in the Red Bull... neither is true. 

[Cenotaph]

DId you miss the start of the 2009 season ?

This is one of main pet peeves against Hamilton's fanbase. The claim that he proved himself in a bad car by getting a few points finishes followed by 5 consecutive races out of the points is a bit weak, isn't it? Because then how is what Vettel did at Toro Rosso, even back in his rookie year 2007 not enough?

 

The main problem with Vettel in his early F1 days was that he often found himself involved in incidents, but when he stayed out of trouble he was delivering constantly, even before Monza 2008, many ppl already saw him as possible future champion, nowadays many guys make it sound like Vettel's dominance came out of nowhere, it really didn't. He had obvious talent from day one.

Edited by Cenotaph, 23 September 2013 - 02:25.

[Moosed]

The claim that he proved himself in a bad car by getting a few points finishes followed by 5 consecutive races out of the points is a bit weak, isn't it? Because then how is what Vettel did at Toro Rosso, even back in his rookie year 2007 not enough?

 

 

do you always argue with comments which don't exist ?

[Cenotaph]

I apologise, it didn't seem unreasonable to connect your suggestion about Hamilton with the topic while I wrote it. The comment still stands though for those who might need it 

[DanardiF1]

Has Newey ever been this successful with any other driver?

 

It is the package. They all work as a unit. Nobody at Red Bull takes the individual credit. I've only just noticed it but they deflect credit. I'm talking about the entire team.

 

However, Seb was let loose with the car. This is rare nowadays. Being told to push is almost unheard of. Everyone else was in tyre saving mode. It just shows how much the drivers are holding back on the car performance.

 

On Newey's consecutive successes, his Williams and McLaren cars from 1991 to 1999 (his last title-winning car before moving to Red Bull) either won the title at a canter or came close 2nd due to either controversial circumstances (1994), gremlins in a new technology (1991), or a driver in bad form (Hill in 1995)... every other year is a title, regardless of driver.... Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all swept their way to championships with visibly better cars than the competition.

 

What sets Newey apart now is that his collected knowledge and massive financial doping (with increased efficiency compared to the other great sugar daddy team Ferrari) from the parent company have made his cars so good that it really is a case of turning up at whatever circuit and being either guaranteed to win or finish on the podium bar 'Acts of God'... The political elements in Red Bull have sought to give their favoured driver the preferential treatment and equipment, meaning that the no. 2 gets the basic package whilst the wunderkind has the car with all the bells and whistles, and better QC from the looks of it. All the engineers and mechanics in the team are superb, but Vettel gets the best ones. Any new parts that will give a time improvement, Vettel gets them first. It may seem incredibly harsh on the 2nd driver but as long as his car is able to score good points in most of the races, they clean up in the championships.

 

Mika Hakkinen was well-rated before Newey came along, but had only 1 win gifted to him by his teammate to show for his fairly long career in F1, having driven some excellent cars along the way (if not quite up to the standard of the Williams, however, Ferrari, McLaren (pre-Newey), Benetton and even Ligier all won races in that period). Suddenly, in 1998 when he steps into the MP4-13, he becomes a driving god, a model of consistency and ferocious speed and finally lives up to the promise of nearly ten years before. When a car is that good, it can transform drivers. Vettel is simply the most recent beneficiary of the genius of Adrian Newey and now the financial muscle of Red Bull GmbH, having a greater and ultimately more expensive pool of R&D talent than probably any other team in history.

 

It's similar to football... put a top manager in charge of an expensively assembled team and it's gonna go places... see the recent successes of Bayern Munich, Barcelona... and the rapid financial-doping assisted rises of Man City, Chelsea and now AS Monaco. 

 

I'd love to see what Newey could do now on a budget... his Leyton House cars were beautifully simple and efficient compared to the bloated spending of his rivals. Equally, I'd love to see what Vettel, a very talented driver if not quite worthy of his achievements IMO, could do in a 'reverse-Hakkinen' situation, where he is taken out of the perfect Newey car and into something a little more compromised.

[DanardiF1]

I think it's a combo of both, but mainly the car. It'll be interesting to see what Vettel can do in an inferior car. Monza 2008 comes to mind, but that was just one off. 

 

MS many times took terrible Ferraris to podiums and wins. Alonso is doing that too, last season, and this season as well. 

 

Will Vettel be able to do it?

 

3 out of the first 4 places on the grid for that race being Newey designs suggests it again wasn't completely down to Vettel. Of course he had to do the rest, but to suggest that the Toro Rosso was not a front-running package for that Grand Prix is missing the entire point.

[krea]

Well, the same people talking about how Alonso outdrives the Ferrari every weekend... but now it's "it's never the driver alone".

[DanardiF1]

Well, the same people talking about how Alonso outdrives the Ferrari every weekend... but now it's "it's never the driver alone".

 

I wouldn't suggest he is 'outdriving' his car, more that Alonso is an incredibly opportunistic driver who on some occasions can seem like he is worth more than the sum of his parts, when really he has just used his guile and intelligence to put himself above others less savvy.

[Gorma]

You just cannot forget about Webber and how he is doing. Remember the era of Schumi's domination? Barrichello was a clear number two driver and and still finished twice second in the championship. Now that is a dominating car. Webber has never been second in the championship. Sure you could argue that Barrichello is a much much better driver than Webber, but you'd have to be quite insane to do so. It is Vettel who is getting the most out of the car. If RBR had Massa and Webber then nobody would be talking about Newey cars and Alonso would be a four time champion.

[Tron]

Pointless arguement.

 

The Vettel fanboys will build a statue honouring him as this team's only ingredient, the sport's messiah.

The Redbull camp chuff themselves as the pioneers of engineering.

The racing fans will say 50/50.

The haters will blame the weather.

 

It's not going to go any where this thread.

 

[DanardiF1]

You just cannot forget about Webber and how he is doing. Remember the era of Schumi's domination? Barrichello was a clear number two driver and and still finished twice second in the championship. Now that is a dominating car. Webber has never been second in the championship. Sure you could argue that Barrichello is a much much better driver than Webber, but you'd have to be quite insane to do so. It is Vettel who is getting the most out of the car. If RBR had Massa and Webber then nobody would be talking about Newey cars and Alonso would be a four time champion.

 

You can if Webber is not being afforded similar levels of equipment, strategy or even basic quality control as his teammate. Red Bull has taken Ferrari's original concept of the two-tiered driver equipment to new levels. Barrichello's car was as bulletproof as Michael's, as they wanted a Ferrari to win if something happened to one of the two cars, although Michael was their obvious preferred winner. At Red Bull, they only care about Vettel, and Webber's car is purely there to score similar points to Vettel's 'direct' rivals. All Webber's car has to do is finish the bulk of the races in an average of say 4th place and with Vettel's full-spec car winning the bulk of the 2nd half races they're guaranteed both titles.

[Gorma]

You can if Webber is not being afforded similar levels of equipment, strategy or even basic quality control as his teammate. Red Bull has taken Ferrari's original concept of the two-tiered driver equipment to new levels. Barrichello's car was as bulletproof as Michael's, as they wanted a Ferrari to win if something happened to one of the two cars, although Michael was their obvious preferred winner. At Red Bull, they only care about Vettel, and Webber's car is purely there to score similar points to Vettel's 'direct' rivals. All Webber's car has to do is finish the bulk of the races in an average of say 4th place and with Vettel's full-spec car winning the bulk of the 2nd half races they're guaranteed both titles.

Sure... that is why they were considering Alonso and Kimi to replace Webber. Naturally they are sabotaging Webber, because they know that he would be faster than Vettel since they have all the data. The fact that Vettel has had more technical DNFs than Webber is just to fool people.

[apoka]

You can if Webber is not being afforded similar levels of equipment, strategy or even basic quality control as his teammate. Red Bull has taken Ferrari's original concept of the two-tiered driver equipment to new levels. Barrichello's car was as bulletproof as Michael's, as they wanted a Ferrari to win if something happened to one of the two cars, although Michael was their obvious preferred winner. At Red Bull, they only care about Vettel, and Webber's car is purely there to score similar points to Vettel's 'direct' rivals. All Webber's car has to do is finish the bulk of the races in an average of say 4th place and with Vettel's full-spec car winning the bulk of the 2nd half races they're guaranteed both titles.

 

Why should RB do that? They have enough money to support two cars and they can actually learn more about their car performance when using two equal cars. And why would Webber agree to that and stay at the team?

[DanardiF1]

Sure... that is why they were considering Alonso and Kimi to replace Webber. Naturally they are sabotaging Webber, because they know that he would be faster than Vettel since they have all the data. The fact that Vettel has had more technical DNFs than Webber is just to fool people.

 

Really? I'd like to see proof of that, because it's certainly not the case from what I'm looking at in just the last two seasons....

 

2013 - Vettel has 1 DNF at Silverstone - Mechanical. Webber has two, one mechanical and one quasi-mechanical (a wheel fell off)

2012 - Both RBR's retire at Monza with technical faults. Webber retires in USA with alternator issue, Vettel in Valencia with the same. Webber DNF's in Abu Dhabi after colliding with Grosjean.

 

In just the last two seasons Webber is still one up on technical problems that cause retirements...

 

The technical deficiencies Webber suffers from are a permanent lack of KERS to use, frequent gearbox issues which require management or in last night's case retirement, an ongoing issue with the clutch at starts. Vettel gets phantom problems that Rocky tells him either to make him slow down when the race is sewn or to make the race seem harder than it really was (ala Brazil 2011).

[DanardiF1]

Why should RB do that? They have enough money to support two cars and they can actually learn more about their car performance when using two equal cars. And why would Webber agree to that and stay at the team?

 

Webber's car is there for data-mining on the core hardware. If Vettel has better engine, diff, gearbox etc. mapping that doesn't necessarily need validating on another car, as it's all software that can be tested on rigs.

 

Who is to say that Webber is even party to what Vettel gets? The telemetry readouts would still be of the same parameters that his car is measured, it's just then harder to him to work out why Vettel is faster in him in a certain sector.

Edited by DanardiF1, 23 September 2013 - 05:50.

[DarthWillie]

3 out of the first 4 places on the grid for that race being Newey designs suggests it again wasn't completely down to Vettel. Of course he had to do the rest, but to suggest that the Toro Rosso was not a front-running package for that Grand Prix is missing the entire point.

Except: newey cars weren't exactly setting the pace that year. Monza would be their only win.

Having a Newey car in 2008 meant having a midfield car

Monza was exceptional because the wheater leveling the playing field, Lewis and co screwing up and Vettel seizing the smallest of opportunities, this had little to do with the car designer

Edited by DarthWillie, 23 September 2013 - 06:11.

[Reinmuster]

both, but the car suits Vettel's driving more than Webber now compared to 2009-2010.

[DarthWillie]

On Newey's consecutive successes, his Williams and McLaren cars from 1991 to 1999 (his last title-winning car before moving to Red Bull) either won the title at a canter or came close 2nd due to either controversial circumstances (1994), gremlins in a new technology (1991), or a driver in bad form (Hill in 1995)... every other year is a title, regardless of driver.... Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all swept their way to championships with visibly better cars than the competition.

And than comes the 2000-2009 era, and suddenly the magic is gone. Only 2 serious championship assaults 2000/2003. But no championships for a decade!!!!!!!!!!! Dispite drivers like Raikkonen, Montoya, Coulthard, Hakkinen..........

Now that is a bummer if you tell everyone a Newey car will win the championship with a monkey behind the wheel

[seahawk]

the car - 3-6 tenths is what a driver can bring, but seconds is down to the car.

[Boxerevo]

 

Jokes aside,Vettel is doing a brilliant job in those rockets.

 

Newey will be TEN times world champion in 2013.

Edited by Boxerevo, 23 September 2013 - 06:36.

[prty]

Sure... that is why they were considering Alonso and Kimi to replace Webber.

Were they really? Then why choose Ricciardo over them? Money talks, another certain thing walks.

[sopa]

I can't help but feel that the percentages posted in this thread as the reason for success, are wrong. You can give some % to Vettel, some % Newey, but the two combined don't make 100%. Heck, they don't make even 50%. The rest will go to Horner, the strategists, the race team/engineers, the design team, the guys in the factory and wind tunnel building cars and interpreting data. If someone of them wasn't doing their job properly, RBR wouldn't be that good.

[Niceone]

I think it's a combo of both, but mainly the car. It'll be interesting to see what Vettel can do in an inferior car. Monza 2008 comes to mind, but that was just one off. 

 

MS many times took terrible Ferraris to podiums and wins. Alonso is doing that too, last season, and this season as well. 

 

Will Vettel be able to do it?

Why are you sure that Vettel haven't had inferior car when he has had podiums and wins with Red Bull? Might not have been inferior car yesterday, but still. My point is that you can't compare drivers driving in different teams. Some times you can't even compare team mates when they don't have same machinery or same resources working for them. I mean even if two drivers have exactly same car it doesn't necessarily mean that they have equal chance for success. That is if car is made to suit one driver.

[Bloggsworth]

Given that Vettel/the car,  on full tanks, was easily 2.5 seconds a lap quicker than anyone else, I would suggest that it is mostly down to Adrian Newey. We know from an accumulated 10,000 years of watching F1 that no driver, in an era of such tightly regulated cars, is that much quicker than his contemporaries. For recent proof we only have to look at the Button/Hamilton combination, one where, before the season started, Hamilton was, according to popular opinion, going to trash Button; yet, over 3 seasons Button outscored Hamilton. More recently we have Hamilton/Rosberg, one can barely slip a cigarette paper between them. Vettel is clearly better than Webber, indeed, he is probably only matched by Alonso, but he is not 2.5 seconds a lap better.

[ensign14]

For recent proof we only have to look at the Button/Hamilton combination, one where, before the season started, Hamilton was, according to popular opinion, going to trash Button; yet, over 3 seasons Button outscored Hamilton.

 

Championship points are irrelevant. Unless you seriously want to promote the view that Coulthard was twice as good a driver as Fangio.

[fastwriter]

You have been, rightly, ridiculed by multiple posters on this thread for some of your posts.

 

A quick word on this one. Hamilton is, by far, the best ever rookie in F1 history and got within a point of a rookie WDC in 2007. Hamilton also delivered a WDC standard season in 2012 but his car and team did not. This has been widely detailed many times but I presume you choose to ignore it for reasons of expediency?

 

I'm not sure of your motivations to write such ridiclous posts riddled with such outlandish views but if you're seeking to improve Vettel's standing on forums then I have to say that you're deeply misguided. Part of the reason Vettel struggles for widespread recognition is because of, frankly ridiculous, posts such as yours.

 Well if you don't know anything about F1 history, stop posting. I won't tell you which rookie definitly was more successful than Hamilton, go Google it, fanboy.

[Kelateboy]

DId you miss the start of the 2009 season ?

 

Did you miss the end of 2007 season? 

[Gorma]

Really? I'd like to see proof of that, because it's certainly not the case from what I'm looking at in just the last two seasons....

 

2013 - Vettel has 1 DNF at Silverstone - Mechanical. Webber has two, one mechanical and one quasi-mechanical (a wheel fell off)

2012 - Both RBR's retire at Monza with technical faults. Webber retires in USA with alternator issue, Vettel in Valencia with the same. Webber DNF's in Abu Dhabi after colliding with Grosjean.

 

In just the last two seasons Webber is still one up on technical problems that cause retirements...

 

The technical deficiencies Webber suffers from are a permanent lack of KERS to use, frequent gearbox issues which require management or in last night's case retirement, an ongoing issue with the clutch at starts. Vettel gets phantom problems that Rocky tells him either to make him slow down when the race is sewn or to make the race seem harder than it really was (ala Brazil 2011).

 

There is a whole thread dedicated to this myth, look it up.

 

Why would you look at two seasons when those two have been team mates for almost five season? Things like these have a tendency to even out in the long run. Vettel has KERS and gearbox issues constantly. The difference is that he wins inspite of them and because he is in the lead he can nurse his car better than Webber who is a worse qualifier and a worse starter.

[Schuttelberg]

First off, my following post has nothing to do with the OP personally. This is just my opinion on the notion Formula 1 fans have.

 

This topic is a sign of frustration that seems to pop up every time Vettel wins a race. Again, the OP may have just asked out of curiosity but most F1 fans at the moment are totally frustrated at the sight of the same winner every year, as well as watching their favourite driver not being able to win.

 

People just need to accept that sometimes in sport, someone is just way above the level of most and it makes the sport a little dull. It's not just in F1. This whole drama about Newey being the sole reason why Vettel wins is absolute bollocks. The reason why Vettel wins is because of the entire Red Bull team and himself. They're just maximising absolutely everything that's possible. It's a complete team effort. 

 

Can someone explain where Adrian Newey's cars were when Michael Schumacher was running all over the field in a similar fashion with Ferrari in 2000-2004? Rory Byrne seemed to be the name in fashion then. 

 

The bottom line and the simple fact is that racing drivers do not design race cars and designers/aerodynamicists do not drive racing cars. They rely on each other to do the best job possible. It's what's called team effort. It's what Vettel, Newey and the whole Red Bull team are doing at the moment.

Edited by Schuttelberg, 23 September 2013 - 08:34.

[Amphicar]

Has Newey ever been this successful with any other driver?

Newey was similarly dominant with Nigel Mansell in the FW14B in 1992, when Mansell wrapped up the title with 5 races left - but even that pales against the domination of the Nichols/Murray designed MP4/4, which in the hands of Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost, won 15 of the 16 of the races races in 1988 ,15 pole positions and 10 fastest laps.

[Rinehart]

You don't lap 2-3 seconds a lap quicker than everyone else without it being down to the car. Thats not to take away Vettels performance and talent but anyone with even the slightest of clues about this sport knows that the difference in true pace between drivers is in tenths, not seconds.

 

Exactly. Lewis, JB, Kimi, Massa & Alonso have all beaten the field by a HUGE margins in certain races MORE THAN ONCE. Clearly any of the top drivers can do it if they are on top form and the car is perfect for them. The only difference is that Vettel enjoys these circumstances more often, due to the car. You need to be a top driver to be able to do it, but there isn't much difference at all between the top 6 or so on race pace under perfect conditions. 

[doc83]

"Stratospheric Vettel or is it Newey's cars?"

 

To tell you the truth it’s all about German money running the sport.

This year is a prime example. It’s really no coincidence that after tweaking the tyres RB and Mercedes come on top.

 

Germany is pretty much only county in UE not in deep financial crisis.

 If RB won’t come on top next year due to Renault engine expect a lot of changes to the Renault unit “because of safety or reliability issues”.    

[Raven8]

"Stratospheric Vettel or is it Newey's cars?"

 

To tell you the truth it’s all about German money running the sport.

This year is a prime example. It’s really no coincidence that after tweaking the tyres RB and Mercedes come on top.

 

Germany is pretty much only county in UE not in deep financial crisis.

 If RB won’t come on top next year due to Renault engine expect a lot of changes to the Renault unit “because of safety or reliability issues”.    

RBR is Austrian no German money involved!

[jedioriginal]

It´s defenetly BOTH. There is something in Neweys cars that suits very well to Sebs driving style.

If someone else hops in to that car he would not probably be as fast with it.

[doc83]

RBR is Austrian no German money involved!

 

Can't seperate the two. One bowl

[Supertourer]

On Newey's consecutive successes, his Williams and McLaren cars from 1991 to 1999 (his last title-winning car before moving to Red Bull) either won the title at a canter or came close 2nd due to either controversial circumstances (1994), gremlins in a new technology (1991), or a driver in bad form (Hill in 1995)... every other year is a title, regardless of driver.... Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all swept their way to championships with visibly better cars than the competition.
 
What sets Newey apart now is that his collected knowledge and massive financial doping (with increased efficiency compared to the other great sugar daddy team Ferrari) from the parent company have made his cars so good that it really is a case of turning up at whatever circuit and being either guaranteed to win or finish on the podium bar 'Acts of God'... The political elements in Red Bull have sought to give their favoured driver the preferential treatment and equipment, meaning that the no. 2 gets the basic package whilst the wunderkind has the car with all the bells and whistles, and better QC from the looks of it. All the engineers and mechanics in the team are superb, but Vettel gets the best ones. Any new parts that will give a time improvement, Vettel gets them first. It may seem incredibly harsh on the 2nd driver but as long as his car is able to score good points in most of the races, they clean up in the championships.
 
Mika Hakkinen was well-rated before Newey came along, but had only 1 win gifted to him by his teammate to show for his fairly long career in F1, having driven some excellent cars along the way (if not quite up to the standard of the Williams, however, Ferrari, McLaren (pre-Newey), Benetton and even Ligier all won races in that period). Suddenly, in 1998 when he steps into the MP4-13, he becomes a driving god, a model of consistency and ferocious speed and finally lives up to the promise of nearly ten years before. When a car is that good, it can transform drivers. Vettel is simply the most recent beneficiary of the genius of Adrian Newey and now the financial muscle of Red Bull GmbH, having a greater and ultimately more expensive pool of R&D talent than probably any other team in history.
 
It's similar to football... put a top manager in charge of an expensively assembled team and it's gonna go places... see the recent successes of Bayern Munich, Barcelona... and the rapid financial-doping assisted rises of Man City, Chelsea and now AS Monaco. 
 
I'd love to see what Newey could do now on a budget... his Leyton House cars were beautifully simple and efficient compared to the bloated spending of his rivals. Equally, I'd love to see what Vettel, a very talented driver if not quite worthy of his achievements IMO, could do in a 'reverse-Hakkinen' situation, where he is taken out of the perfect Newey car and into something a little more compromised.

On Newey's consecutive successes, his Williams and McLaren cars from 1991 to 1999 (his last title-winning car before moving to Red Bull) either won the title at a canter or came close 2nd due to either controversial circumstances (1994), gremlins in a new technology (1991), or a driver in bad form (Hill in 1995)... every other year is a title, regardless of driver.... Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all swept their way to championships with visibly better cars than the competition.
 
What sets Newey apart now is that his collected knowledge and massive financial doping (with increased efficiency compared to the other great sugar daddy team Ferrari) from the parent company have made his cars so good that it really is a case of turning up at whatever circuit and being either guaranteed to win or finish on the podium bar 'Acts of God'... The political elements in Red Bull have sought to give their favoured driver the preferential treatment and equipment, meaning that the no. 2 gets the basic package whilst the wunderkind has the car with all the bells and whistles, and better QC from the looks of it. All the engineers and mechanics in the team are superb, but Vettel gets the best ones. Any new parts that will give a time improvement, Vettel gets them first. It may seem incredibly harsh on the 2nd driver but as long as his car is able to score good points in most of the races, they clean up in the championships.
 
Mika Hakkinen was well-rated before Newey came along, but had only 1 win gifted to him by his teammate to show for his fairly long career in F1, having driven some excellent cars along the way (if not quite up to the standard of the Williams, however, Ferrari, McLaren (pre-Newey), Benetton and even Ligier all won races in that period). Suddenly, in 1998 when he steps into the MP4-13, he becomes a driving god, a model of consistency and ferocious speed and finally lives up to the promise of nearly ten years before. When a car is that good, it can transform drivers. Vettel is simply the most recent beneficiary of the genius of Adrian Newey and now the financial muscle of Red Bull GmbH, having a greater and ultimately more expensive pool of R&D talent than probably any other team in history.
 
It's similar to football... put a top manager in charge of an expensively assembled team and it's gonna go places... see the recent successes of Bayern Munich, Barcelona... and the rapid financial-doping assisted rises of Man City, Chelsea and now AS Monaco. 
 
I'd love to see what Newey could do now on a budget... his Leyton House cars were beautifully simple and efficient compared to the bloated spending of his rivals. Equally, I'd love to see what Vettel, a very talented driver if not quite worthy of his achievements IMO, could do in a 'reverse-Hakkinen' situation, where he is taken out of the perfect Newey car and into something a little more compromised.

Sums it up well IMO and he probably already has one hand on the 2014 title already as Newey is bound to interpret the changes required to the cars next year better than anyone.

[EthanM]

It's a dumb debate that has been done a million times and ultimately the answers are always the same.

 

The gaps were circumstantial, Rosberg had a debris-induced understeery car and wasn't really inclined to push. Alonso was unwilling to push Rosberg cause his only play was to hang on to track position and tyre life, else he'd be out of the podium. That left Vettel alone in clean air running quali laps. But Vettel's ability to just switch on and run 10-15 quali laps in the middle of a race that is supposedly physically exhausting is as admirable as Newey's ability to evolve his cars better than the competition. The rest is sour grapes. Vettel gets the absolute best out of his car, that's all a driver can do, that's all a driver is expected to do. And he does so with metronomic consistency. That's what gets Vettel championships, and that's all that matters. Not random people on the internet arguing about what would convince them Vettel is great. Let me give you a hint: nothing will convince them. Even if Vettel drives a dog to a championship, that dog will be baptized a dominating car, same as has been done with the 2008 STR. Which lets not forget was a carbon copy of the Red Bull car, which hadn't won a race and only got one solitary lucky podium in Canada. But its clone, in Racing Comments la-la land, has been ordained the car to have in the 2008 season.

[Raven8]

Can't seperate the two. One bowl

Well you should better inform yourself, better!

[Hayden1]

Pointless arguement.

 

The Vettel fanboys will build a statue honouring him as this team's only ingredient, the sport's messiah.

The Redbull camp chuff themselves as the pioneers of engineering.

The racing fans will say 50/50.

The haters will blame the weather.

 

It's not going to go any where this thread.

 

[speng]

............

I'd love to see what Newey could do now on a budget... his Leyton House cars were beautifully simple and efficient compared to the bloated spending of his rivals. Equally, I'd love to see what Vettel, a very talented driver if not quite worthy of his achievements IMO, could do in a 'reverse-Hakkinen' situation, where he is taken out of the perfect Newey car and into something a little more compromised.

Agree

[Jan.W]

It's a dumb debate that has been done a million times and ultimately the answers are always the same.

 

The gaps were circumstantial, Rosberg had a debris-induced understeery car and wasn't really inclined to push. Alonso was unwilling to push Rosberg cause his only play was to hang on to track position and tyre life, else he'd be out of the podium. That left Vettel alone in clean air running quali laps. But Vettel's ability to just switch on and run 10-15 quali laps in the middle of a race that is supposedly physically exhausting is as admirable as Newey's ability to evolve his cars better than the competition. The rest is sour grapes. Vettel gets the absolute best out of his car, that's all a driver can do, that's all a driver is expected to do. And he does so with metronomic consistency. That's what gets Vettel championships, and that's all that matters. Not random people on the internet arguing about what would convince them Vettel is great. Let me give you a hint: nothing will convince them. Even if Vettel drives a dog to a championship, that dog will be baptized a dominating car, same as has been done with the 2008 STR. Which lets not forget was a carbon copy of the Red Bull car, which hadn't won a race and only got one solitary lucky podium in Canada. But its clone, in Racing Comments la-la land, has been ordained the car to have in the 2008 season.

Best comment on this topic.

[Tenmantaylor]

The car is great no doubt, the class of the field, but Seb is also moving into a different league now in terms of his driving and synchronicity with the car and team. You cannot separate the car the and the driver, they are a combination. How people can honestly believe it's all the car whilst Webber is struggling to get on the podium is beyond me.

[Freung]

bit of both, if the car so so great why isn't webber second in the championship instead of 6th? why ha webber never ended rup in the championship? why is it  13-0 in qualy to vettel?

 

the car is great but so is the driver. imo Vettel is the best driver in f1 atm and only Alonso is anywhere near him.

 

Hamilton had the best car 2007,2008, 2012 and equal best in 2013 yet only has 1 title. Vettel maximises what  he is given

Lol..said so 'matter of factly'. Do you have a source for this seemingly obvious fact or is it only to justify your other ideologies.?

[GlenP]

Gotta agree; Vettel is amazing. 3 x wdc, on the bounce no less, does not happen by accident. At age 25 it is practically a miracle, in any car.

[doc83]

It's a dumb debate that has been done a million times and ultimately the answers are always the same.

 

The gaps were circumstantial, Rosberg had a debris-induced understeery car and wasn't really inclined to push. Alonso was unwilling to push Rosberg cause his only play was to hang on to track position and tyre life, else he'd be out of the podium. That left Vettel alone in clean air running quali laps. But Vettel's ability to just switch on and run 10-15 quali laps in the middle of a race that is supposedly physically exhausting is as admirable as Newey's ability to evolve his cars better than the competition. The rest is sour grapes. Vettel gets the absolute best out of his car, that's all a driver can do, that's all a driver is expected to do. And he does so with metronomic consistency. That's what gets Vettel championships, and that's all that matters. Not random people on the internet arguing about what would convince them Vettel is great. Let me give you a hint: nothing will convince them. Even if Vettel drives a dog to a championship, that dog will be baptized a dominating car, same as has been done with the 2008 STR. Which lets not forget was a carbon copy of the Red Bull car, which hadn't won a race and only got one solitary lucky podium in Canada. But its clone, in Racing Comments la-la land, has been ordained the car to have in the 2008 season.

 

Maybe because some of these "random people" actually seen Vettel pre F1 (followed him and other young drivers) and know that he is nothing extraordinary. Just look on his pre f1 record if you don’t believe that.

Somebody is either born with a great talent or not. Scenario when a sportsman is average till he is 20 and then suddenly booom greatest ever simply never happens. If someone has a great talent it’s visible from very start - since a young kid.  Vettel is not that. 

 

Well you should better inform yourself, better!

 

Actually I am.

It’s hard to trace all the money nowadays but if someone doesn’t believe that I encourage him to read any book on modern history. Should be enough.

Edited by doc83, 23 September 2013 - 10:13.

[Freung]

 

Crashgate, spygate, Fernando is faster than you gate   all great memories

 

 

Perhap with the right driver that car would have dominated?? Remember, Lewis has never proven himself in a midfield team so we have no idea how good he really is.

 

Yes true,,in fact,,we will actually know how good ANY of the drivers are.lool

[DarthWillie]

Maybe because some of these "random people" actually seen Vettel pre F1 (followed him and other young drivers) and know that he is nothing extraordinary. Just look on his pre f1 record if you don’t believe that.

Somebody is either born with a great talent or not. Scenario when a sportsman is average till he is 20 and then suddenly booom greatest ever simply never happens. If someone has a great talent it’s visible from very start - since a young kid.  Vettel is not that. 

like jan magnussen who won everything in lower formula before his f1 failure, or Niki Lauda who had to buy himself into f1. A certain Gilles Villeneuve wasn't exactly setting the world on fire pre f1

 

Vettels pre f1 stats are quite good, certainly if you take into consideration him not finishing the 2007 season and being injured in 2005 or 2006

 

but your absolutes are nonsense, even in lower formula one has to have the material, It is not like everyone in F3 has the same chance of a win. Cars might be equal, the teams most certainly are not.

[sennafan24]

Whatever - all it had to be was better than the rest and all we needed from Seb was driving it to victory, which he did, brilliantly.  It is always the car+ driver, not just one or the other.  So what is the problem? 

Sorry to pick you up on something again, but the problem is that some Vettel fans use Webber as a benchmark to prove Vettel's driving ability. Which in 2013 is a faulty comparison, to prove Vettel's driving ability you have to point to performances like Germany and his supreme consistency, not dominating the 37 year old over the hill Mark Webber, who was not a elite driver in his prime.

 

There are a wealth of valid reasons for Vettel fans to argue the driving merit of Vettel, the Webber comparison is not one of them in my opinion.