492 replies to this topic

[rmpugh]

Good idea, but current odds on Kimi are even 251. Now we need someone, who ............. Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton.

 

Yes, but if you were to kneecap Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, you would risk getting caught. Just Vettel and it is just a random act of violence. Over a million for a 35 grand stake? Jesus, if I weren't such a coward, I would even think about it.

[Boxerevo]

Clearly Newey, but if I were Vettel, I would be worried. Current odds on Vettel at bwin for example are 1.01 for Vettel, and next up 31 for Alonso. So, if you were to place a 1000 pound bet on Alonso to win the championship, you would get 31 grand. I am sure it would cost less than 10 grand to hire somebody to break Vettel's legs. So, if you did this, and also spent say 10 grand on a vote for Alonso, this would net you 310 grand minus the 10 grand to the leg breakers, making an easy 300 grand. Make the stake 35 grand and you net yourself over a million.

 

Obviously not saying this should happen, but if I were Vettel, I would certainly be worried. The money involved is simply mind boggling.

Calm Down,Bernie has a button for those situations,2 retirements coming to Vettel and odds dropping.

Edited by Boxerevo, 24 September 2013 - 23:05.

[Raven8]

Its not just Newey guys.

 

Its also team efficiency and Vettel's driving, things like pit stop errors, suspension issues, anti roll bar failures never happen to Vettel, like they did for Lewis in 2012. Yes, the odd mechanical DNF will come Vettels' way, but not to the extent it distorts his season. Look at what Lewis had to put up with in 2012 if you want to see how Del Boy Trotter would run a F1 team. The car was there to mold, they had the best driver (in my book) to play with it, yet they still managed to mess up every weekend with a variety of cowboy errors listed above.

 

Newey is not a one man team, at McLaren he could not make up for the the cowboys that ran things there, which is why they had 0 titles under Newey from 2000-2005 despite having a prime Kimi to apply his trade. Since then it took Lewis Hamilton beating the better car in Ferrari in 2008 to give McLaren their sole title, even with Newey and the right drivers,

 

McLaren is not a smoothly run operation. Red Bull is.

RBR made the right decission to throw everything behind 1 driver. Something McLaren failed to do since some years especially last season after Canada, wich cost them the WDC, not only their errors

If any team want to have a chance the coming years they have to do the same.

[sennafan24]

RBR made the right decission to throw everything behind 1 driver. Something McLaren failed to do since some years especially last season after Canada, wich cost them the WDC, not only their errors

If any team want to have a chance the coming years they have to do the same.

Agreed, that is one thing Lewis has not have since Heikii, a clear number 2 driver.

 

Alonso has it with Massa, and Vettel may not get cooperation with Webber, but Webber is so shopworn he is hardly any threat. He is the Patrese to Vettel's Schumi, all the resources and time probably go firstly to Vettel, and it works well.

[Cool Beans]

Yes, but if you were to kneecap Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, you would risk getting caught. Just Vettel and it is just a random act of violence. Over a million for a 35 grand stake? Jesus, if I weren't such a coward, I would even think about it.

 

Maybe somebody was way ahead of you but just hired cheap help. Wat you mean Igor make mistake, Igor break back of blond driver just like you ask 

[ThomFi]

RBR made the right decission to throw everything behind 1 driver. Something McLaren failed to do since some years especially last season after Canada, wich cost them the WDC, not only their errors

If any team want to have a chance the coming years they have to do the same.

 

Well, they threw everything behind this guy,

because of Whitmarsh's irrational love and man crush for Button, or so I was told.

[rmpugh]

Its not just Newey guys.

 

Its also team efficiency and Vettel's driving, things like pit stop errors, suspension issues, anti roll bar failures never happen to Vettel, like they did for Lewis in 2012. Yes, the odd mechanical DNF will come Vettels' way, but not to the extent it distorts his season. Look at what Lewis had to put up with in 2012 if you want to see how Del Boy Trotter would run a F1 team. The car was there to mold, they had the best driver (in my book) to play with it, yet they still managed to mess up every weekend with a variety of cowboy errors listed above.

 

Newey is not a one man team, at McLaren he could not make up for the the cowboys that ran things there, which is why they had 0 titles under Newey from 2000-2005 despite having a prime Kimi to apply his trade. Since then it took Lewis Hamilton beating the better car in Ferrari in 2008 to give McLaren their sole title, even with Newey and the right drivers,

 

McLaren is not a smoothly run operation. Red Bull is.

 

TBH, the McLaren of 2005 was a million miles faster than any other team, it was just the Mercedes engine that kept blowing up. Also, the McLaren from 2000/2001 was great, but Mika was not. Other than that, Newey screwed up with the MP4-19, forcing the MP4-19B, and the MP4-17 was also ****, though the MP4-18 was even worse. Newey really ****ed up McLaren's charge, apart from 2005, when it was Mercedes that ****ed it all up. 

[George Costanza]

TBH, the McLaren of 2005 was a million miles faster than any other team, it was just the Mercedes engine that kept blowing up. Also, the McLaren from 2000/2001 was great, but Mika was not. Other than that, Newey screwed up with the MP4-19, forcing the MP4-19B, and the MP4-17 was also ****, though the MP4-18 was even worse. Newey really ****ed up McLaren's charge, apart from 2005, when it was Mercedes that ****ed it all up. 

 

 

McLaren could have won in 2000, 2003 and 2005. A little bit luck in it, and they would have..... Mika was incredible in 2000. He would have probably won the championship given his luck at the end. 

[sennafan24]

TBH, the McLaren of 2005 was a million miles faster than any other team, it was just the Mercedes engine that kept blowing up. Also, the McLaren from 2000/2001 was great, but Mika was not. Other than that, Newey screwed up with the MP4-19, forcing the MP4-19B, and the MP4-17 was also ****, though the MP4-18 was even worse. Newey really ****ed up McLaren's charge, apart from 2005, when it was Mercedes that ****ed it all up. 

Mika was still a great driver in 2000.

 

2001, he had a Lewis 2011 year, his form and motivation was dropped significantly. He claims he was just tired.

[Kingshark]

I fundamentally disagree. They wouldn't have won those titles if they DIDN'T have the best car. Maybe not the fastest all the time, but definitely the best. There's a difference.

 

To succeed in motorsport for any length of time, you need both. One doesn't outweigh the other.

 

Hamilton had the best car in 2008, but only won by one point.

 

Hamilton did NOT have the best car in 2008, anyone who can see the sport from rational eyes will tell you that the Ferrari was faster that year.

 

Also, to argue that Prost had the best car when he won the WDC in 1986 is laughable.

 

Plenty of drivers have won the WDC without the best car before, hell, I could make a good case for Fernando in 2006.

 

Vettel is good, but having the best car for the past 4 years has flattered him a lot.

[Burtros]

Well, they threw everything behind this guy,

because of Whitmarsh's irrational love and man crush for Button, or so I was told.

 

Interesting how a thread about Vettel's ability and the car can become something for dishing out the blame and pitty for Hamiltons lack of titles.

 

Simple fact for me, despite not being a Vettel or Red Bull fan is the Seb is simply the best driver right now, in the best car. Put those two together and this is what you get. Cant say I am enjoying it, McLaren would have had many more titles if it were not for them, but I'm not going to get all upset about it and start taking credit that's totally deserved away to spite them.

[ThomFi]

Interesting how a thread about Vettel's ability and the car can become something for dishing out the blame and pitty for Hamiltons lack of titles.

 

Simple fact for me, despite not being a Vettel or Red Bull fan is the Seb is simply the best driver right now, in the best car. Put those two together and this is what you get. Cant say I am enjoying it, McLaren would have had many more titles if it were not for them, but I'm not going to get all upset about it and start taking credit that's totally deserved away to spite them.

Please, it was meant as a joke.

[sennafan24]

Interesting how a thread about Vettel's ability and the car can become something for dishing out the blame and pitty for Hamiltons lack of titles.

 

Interesting how someone can miss the point when jumping into a thread and not see that the point about Lewis was not about "blame and pity" but actually to make a point about RB and Vettel's strengths as a team.

Edited by sennafan24, 25 September 2013 - 00:17.

[George Costanza]

Mika was still a great driver in 2000.

 

2001, he had a Lewis 2011 year, his form and motivation was dropped significantly. He claims he was just tired.

 

He was tired and mentally faitgued because of the energy spent trying to match Ferrari and Michael Schumacher in his prime, which is an amazing feat itself. And he's the only driver to beat him in a straight fight, 1998 season.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 September 2013 - 00:18.

[George Costanza]

Hamilton did NOT have the best car in 2008, anyone who can see the sport from rational eyes will tell you that the Ferrari was faster that year.

 

Also, to argue that Prost had the best car when he won the WDC in 1986 is laughable.

 

Plenty of drivers have won the WDC without the best car before, hell, I could make a good case for Fernando in 2006.

 

Vettel is good, but having the best car for the past 4 years has flattered him a lot.

 

 

Indeed.... To name some: Senna in 1991, Schumacher 1995, 2000, 2003 (2003 is debatable).... Alonso 2005 and Lewis in 2008?  Unsure about 2007 because Ferrari was on par with Mac.

[sennafan24]

He was tired and mentally faitgued because of the energy spent trying to match Ferrari and Michael Schumacher in his prime, which is an amazing feat itself. And he's the only driver to beat him in a straight fight, 1998 season.

Yep, and McLaren run their drivers ragged with P.R stuff.

[Neolew]

Agreed, that is one thing Lewis has not have since Heikii, a clear number 2 driver.

 

Alonso has it with Massa, and Vettel may not get cooperation with Webber, but Webber is so shopworn he is hardly any threat. He is the Patrese to Vettel's Schumi, all the resources and time probably go firstly to Vettel, and it works well.

 

I guarantee Lewis Hamilton would be at least a 2 time WDC if  mclaren had clear number 1 driver status 2010-2012 but the departure of his mentor Ron Dennis CBE  and inter team politics with Martin Whitmarsh destroyed any hopes of multiple championships with the team. I am relieved that he left the toxic climate at Mclaren who are currently reliving their winless mid 90's form!

 

 

Its ridiculous to say that Vettel's 2 seconds a lap faster than the field is all because of his so-called raw talent.

No it isnt all Newey but him and Infiniti red bull discipline does have a huge impact on vettel's dominance also any top tier driver can look like a genius when they have teammates like 37 year old mark webber, Sébastien Bourdais and Daniel Ricciardo...

 

 Another issue with vettels red bull dominance is that supporters always bring up his amazing Toro Rosso rain affected monza win as proof of him winning in inferior cars but thats not true.  vettel's first win in 2008 - the redbull B team Toro Rosso STR3 was not the inferior car vettel fans make out to be. The car was identical to the Red bull RB4 designed by Adrian Newey the only difference was the customer ferrari engine, it was an impressive win but vettel wasn't driving an inferior car either.

 

 

 

 

Newey is not a one man team, at McLaren he could not make up for the the cowboys that ran things there, which is why they had 0 titles under Newey from 2000-2005 despite having a prime Kimi to apply his trade. Since then it took Lewis Hamilton beating the better car in Ferrari in 2008 to give McLaren their sole title, even with Newey and the right drivers,

 

 

McLarens 2007  MP4-22? LOL I think Nigel Stepney  and Mike Coughlans expert photocopying skills done more for mclaren than Adrian ever could.!

 

 

Adrian Newey's lack of success at mclaren 2000-2005 also  was because that was the era of many variables which he had no control over such as tyre war favoritism (bridgestone-Ferreri michelin-Renault)  and mercedes trying to out power ferreri building powerful  950bhp+ V10 grenade engines which constantly blew up mid race.

 

 red bull, Adrian and the 'chosen one' benefit from the  2009 regulation change because the regs forced engine reliability and teams put the emphasis on other aspects such as aero and other rule bending gimmicks where Adrian excels.

 

 

Another example of how a team can benefit and dominate from huge regulation change was the rebadged 2009 Honda..Brawn BGP 001

 

 

Around may/june 2008 Honda aborted ALL development of the 2008 RA108 so they could put all resources behind the radical 2009 car which was ultimately rebadged brawn with customer merc engine after Japanese execs decided pulled out of F1.

 little known fact is that Honda B team Super Aguri pioneered the radical double diffuser. After Super Aguri ceased operations may 2008 most key staff moved to Honda F1 HQ in brackley to further develop the game changing technology that destroyed the field in the first half of 09 season and handed Brawn the WCC and WDC.

 

Red Bull have mastered the 2009 regulation change and dominated but  i see history repeating itself. (Honda>Brawn>Mercedes) Mercedes lack of pace towards the end of this season suggests that they will dominate early after the radical reg 2014 change but thats a debate for another thread

Edited by MightyMoose, 25 September 2013 - 22:53.
Good post, but unecessary "Button bash" have been removed

[krea]

Webber and Vettel kind of went back and forth in the opening half of 2012, with Webber being in front after race 2-3, equal standing after #6, and Webber then being ahead from Europe (race 8) up until Belgium (race 12). I think that clearly shows he had a good handle on the car in the first half of the season for even longer than I initially stated.

 

Although Vettel (never said he didn't have any trouble that year) had 2 DNFs up until then, Webber had 1 and (granted, like Vettel) plenty of other issues during that first half of the year. So regardless of the other reasons for the season and races unfolding as they did, I certainly wouldn't say claiming Webber having a better handle on the car (which is what I said, not that he was necessarily better) than Vettel in early 2012 is historical revisionism. Especially not if you take into account that in terms of their relative performance, seeing as I do believe Vettel to be the better driver, yet Webber was equalling him.
 

 

Webber had no DNF in the first half of the year, while Vettel had Malaysia and Europe. That are 40 points.

[krea]

 Another issue with vettels red bull dominance is that supporters always bring up his amazing Toro Rosso rain affected monza win as proof of him winning in inferior cars but thats not true.  vettel's first win in 2008 - the redbull B team Toro Rosso STR3 was not the inferior car vettel fans make out to be. The car was identical to the Red bull RB4 designed by Adrian Newey the only difference was the customer ferrari engine, it was an impressive win but vettel wasn't driving an inferior car either.

 

At this point. Vettel can't do anything to prove it's not just the car if people seriously claim that the Toro Rosso was not a mid/low tier car in 2008.

Edited by krea, 25 September 2013 - 04:33.

[lbennie]

At this point. Vettel can't do anything to prove it's not just the car if people seriously claim that the Toro Rosso was not a mid/low tier car in 2008.

 

Torro Rosso was an upper midfield car in 2008 once they had brought out the new spec car before mid season.

 

For the record im a massive Seb fan.

Edited by lbennie, 25 September 2013 - 05:43.

[krea]

Vettel was the only driver in a Newey car who scored consistently in the second part of the. Bourdois, Webber and Coulthard were all significantly slower than Vettel.

Toro Rosso in the second half of 2009 was on the same level as Force India now. And I don't think anyone wouldn't be impressive if Di Resta or Sutil win a race. Or from another point of view neither Hamilton nor Alonso won a race in a similar car.

Edited by krea, 25 September 2013 - 07:38.

[velgajski1]

Indeed.... To name some: Senna in 1991, Schumacher 1995, 2000, 2003 (2003 is debatable).... Alonso 2005 and Lewis in 2008?  Unsure about 2007 because Ferrari was on par with Mac.

 

Surely you mean Alonso 2006? Car that has to choose between 10 place grid penalty or 50% DNF chance in race every other race, and which started to be quick only after 4-5 races can hardly be called best car

[seahawk]

Newey did not do so well at Macca because of the McLaren´s way of doing things. McLaren always aims to dominate the rest, they are willing to take every risk and they are willing to give up reliability for theoretical gains in performance. At RBR the management is better at aiming for a balanced result.

[Nobody]

Vettel was the only driver in a Newey car who scored consistently in the second driver. Bourdois, Webber and Coulthard were all significantly slower than Vettel.

Toro Rosso in the second half of 2009 was on the same level as Force India now. And I don't think anyone wouldn't be impressive if Di Resta or Sutil would win race. Or from another point of view neither Hamilton nor Alonso won a race in a similar car.

 

Perez Malaysia 2012

 

Circumstances were very similar to Monza 2008 (and Perez started 10th)

 

(pin, grenade, throw)

 

 

Main problem is Newey used to have competition (back in the '90s and '00s) & Vettel is an absolute gun in the peak of his powers - but he's not Jesus (yet).

[krea]

Using superlatives as argument is pretty pointless.

We all know how Formula 1 works. F1 is a combination of engineering, team effort and driver, that's the reason why F1 is way more popular than spec cars series.

 

And Maldonado's victory was impressive, I don't think we need to discuss about it. But unlike Vettel he didn't show a strong season last year - outside of his victory. Vettel's victory in Monza is more like the cherry on the top.

Edited by krea, 25 September 2013 - 09:09.

[Nobody]

I've seen all of Newey's cars to know how good they are in the hands of great drivers.

 

Right now, Vettel is in the best form I've seen him in.

 

Asking who might be the greater genius is simplistic.

 

how boring

[sennafan24]

 

 

Red Bull have mastered the 2009 regulation change and dominated but  i see history repeating itself. (Honda>Brawn>Mercedes) Mercedes lack of pace towards the end of this season suggests that they will dominate early after the radical reg 2014 change but thats a debate for another thread

I hope so.

 

I pretty much agree with everything in your post 

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Clearly the car, a 1 second or more gap happens drag racing off of an early corner.  *It's always coming off a corner in a drag race*, it is not magical 1 second Vettel momentum.   It's "something else"...

[Goron3]

Torro Rosso was an upper midfield car in 2008 once they had brought out the new spec car before mid season.

For the record im a massive Seb fan.

Yeah it was a great car! Produced a lot of rear grip and was mighty in the wet.

[apoka]

Clearly the car, a 1 second or more gap happens drag racing off of an early corner.  *It's always coming off a corner in a drag race*, it is not magical 1 second Vettel momentum.   It's "something else"...

 

You could argue the same way no matter what the gap is. If Vettel is one second slower than the best driver-car-combo, it could be the Newey car being equal best, but his driving costing him a second or it could be the car being two seconds slower, but Vettel outperforming the other driver by a second. It just makes most sense to give the car and the driver credit.

[krea]

Yeah it was a great car! Produced a lot of rear grip and was mighty in the wet.

 

Not it's a great car.

 

Vettel underperformed that he just won one race!

[Cesc]

BOTH:

 

Vettel is one of the best drivers of the grid, no doubt...I still think he needs to show what can he deliver with an underperforming car for a long period of time (a season or so), not one or two races. But still, the guy is definetely VERY good, perfectely adapted to the car & the team.

The car is sensational, it is fast since the very beginning and the Ferrari and the Mercedes are quite worse in general terms. 

[Rinehart]

Imagine if Red Bull had signed Rosberg, rather than Vettel in 2008 for instance. 

 

Circumstances play a pivotal role in our views of drivers. 

 

All a driver can do is the most they can with the car at his disposal. Great credit to Vettel for doing so. He's clearly a top driver. But I think there are at least 7 other active drivers who could have won the 2011 and 2013 titles in the no1 RBR. Generally double or more world champions are automatically placed in the upper echelons of the all time drivers lists - so that would put some "average" drivers pretty high up the list, had they been dealt a better hand...

[apoka]

Imagine if Red Bull had signed Rosberg, rather than Vettel in 2008 for instance. 

 

Circumstances play a pivotal role in our views of drivers. 

 

All a driver can do is the most they can with the car at his disposal. Great credit to Vettel for doing so. He's clearly a top driver. But I think there are at least 7 other active drivers who could have won the 2011 and 2013 titles in the no1 RBR. Generally double or more world champions are automatically placed in the upper echelons of the all time drivers lists - so that would put some "average" drivers pretty high up the list, had they been dealt a better hand...

 

Hm, Webber was slower than Vettel, but quite consistent in 2011 actually and still 12 points away from Button. I'm not sure there are that there are at least 7 drivers apart from Vettel better than Webber in that year.

 

But you're right, of course, that a very good car could make you a 2xWDC. That shouldn't automatically grant you "all time great" status, but there is still quite some pressure associated with winning WDCs and even winning in a better car in such a strong field as we have the pleasure to witness at the moment, is difficult. So if Rosberg had been an RB driver and pulled off 2011 and 2013, he'd deserve praise.

[Winter98]

Imagine if Red Bull had signed Rosberg, rather than Vettel in 2008 for instance. 

 

Circumstances play a pivotal role in our views of drivers. 

 

All a driver can do is the most they can with the car at his disposal. Great credit to Vettel for doing so. He's clearly a top driver. But I think there are at least 7 other active drivers who could have won the 2011 and 2013 titles in the no1 RBR. Generally double or more world champions are automatically placed in the upper echelons of the all time drivers lists - so that would put some "average" drivers pretty high up the list, had they been dealt a better hand...

You can't say that about 2013.

 

If Vettel doesn't drive so well at the beginning of the season, he could have been down 20 or 30 points, instead of up that amount, and instead of a 60 point lead, the WDC is very close at this point.

 

That means the other teams aren't giving up, putting their resources into 2014, and conceding defeat.

 

Singapore alone could have easily been a 14 point swing.  Could an "average" driver have put in those laps post SC to open up a sufficient lead to pit and come out ahead of Alonso?  Could SV have done that if Ferrari and Mercedes were still putting all their resources into this years car?  An average driver could easily be behind in the WDC at this point.  Look where MW is in the standings.

 

How big of an advantage does RBR have if Mercedes and Ferrari are still putting all their efforts into the 2013 car?

Edited by Winter98, 26 September 2013 - 11:42.

[paulogman]

The first couple seasons at Ferrari when they didn't have the bespoke tyres and they were fighting an on form Williams team showed schumacher's talent and drive to win races.
Vettel hasn't shown that.
When the speed isn't in the car he falls back in the pack waiting for newey to figure it out.

[Winter98]

The first couple seasons at Ferrari when they didn't have the bespoke tyres and they were fighting an on form Williams team showed schumacher's talent and drive to win races.
Vettel hasn't shown that.
When the speed isn't in the car he falls back in the pack waiting for newey to figure it out.

Vettel proved what he could do at the beginning of this season, when the RBR was struggling.  That's the main reason the WDC is effectively over, and the RBR car is so dominant at this point in the season.

[apoka]

The first couple seasons at Ferrari when they didn't have the bespoke tyres and they were fighting an on form Williams team showed schumacher's talent and drive to win races.
Vettel hasn't shown that.
When the speed isn't in the car he falls back in the pack waiting for newey to figure it out.

 

That's a pretty lame comment. He is usually still maximizing points and generally, he is one of the hardest drivers to overtake even with a slower car (which is why the pole + defend lead strategy sometimes worked out for him even without having a performance advantage). And "no drive to win races"? Are we talking about the same Vettel, who leaves no stone unturned to squeeze out a performance advantage over his rivals? I'm a fan of both, Vettel and MS, but what you say doesn't much sense in my opinion. If they have one thing in common, then it is the drive to win races.

[ViMaMo]

If only politics and delusional supporters would win you a championship, Alonso would have torn down all Schumacher records by now.
And about the Red Bull. No one said, the 2 seconds would be down to Vettels driving. It's also clear by now, that Rosberg was a road block because of the tyre marbles in his frontwing and cautious driving. The front wing issue cost him around 1 second per lap, according to Mercedes engineers (AMuS).  
 

 

Like the politics Red Bull does? Red team is so bad isn't it. 

[ThomFi]

Like the politics Red Bull does? Red team is so bad isn't it. 

 

That's actually not what I said, but whatever suits you best, twit.

[David1976]

Should the post title not be:

 

STRATOSPHERIC NEWEY OR IS IT VETTEL'S DRIVING?

 

My opinion is that Vettel is Button level in talent but that this generation of Newey cars has been designed to suit the current regs to a degree other teams cannot match, be it through money or ingenuity.  I don't rate Webber - neither have any top teams.

Watching Vettel's on-board footage never makes me think that he is in the same league as Alonso or Hamilton who regularly out drive their machinery.  

Edited by David1976, 26 September 2013 - 14:08.

[ViMaMo]

That's actually not what I said, but whatever suits you best, twit.

 

to a fellow twit. 

[sv401]

I don't rate Webber - neither have any top teams.

 

If I recall correctly, Webber could have replaced Massa for this season at Ferrari, but he turned them down. Maybe you do not rate Ferrari as a top team, though.

 

Alonso or Hamilton who regularly out drive their machinery.  

 

Putting aside the question of how you came to that conclusion watching onboard footage, it is physically impossible to "outdrive" a car. Those who still try it anyway end up outside the track.

[sv401]

Perez Malaysia 2012

 

Circumstances were very similar to Monza 2008 (and Perez started 10th)

 

Not really. Malaysia 2012 was a chaotic race in changing conditions (= results more affected by luck), while Monza 2008 had fairly constant full wet (but not to the extent that the race had to be interrupted) weather. And, of course, Perez did not win.

[sv401]

Its ridiculous to say that Vettel's 2 seconds a lap faster than the field is all because of his so-called raw talent.

 

Then stop saying ridiculous things, since at least 90% of the time such claim is thrown around it is used as a straw man by people who are not Vettel fans. I only frequently see actual claims along the lines of "it is all the car".

 

No it isnt all Newey but him and Infiniti red bull discipline does have a huge impact on vettel's dominance also any top tier driver can look like a genius when they have teammates like 37 year old mark webber, Sébastien Bourdais and Daniel Ricciardo...

 

I doubt you have much idea about how good Ricciardo is or is not, and Webber was not always 37 years old (not to mention, a driver can still perform well at the age of 37). Webber was faster over one lap than all of his team-mates before 2009, including Rosberg.

 

Regarding the STR3, you have only proven that it was not inferior to the RB4. How about Kovalainen's MP4-23, or Massa's F2008 ?

 

Adrian Newey's lack of success at mclaren 2000-2005 also  was because that was the era of many variables which he had no control over such as tyre war favoritism (bridgestone-Ferreri michelin-Renault)  and mercedes trying to out power ferreri building powerful  950bhp+ V10 grenade engines which constantly blew up mid race.

 

In 2003 and 2006, the main problem with the McLaren was that it simply was not fast enough. I also doubt you can blame the MP4-18/19 fiasco entirely on Mercedes. Maybe you should give at least some credit to Red Bull's management and their hundreds of other employees for the success ?

 

Red Bull have mastered the 2009 regulation change and dominated but  i see history repeating itself. (Honda>Brawn>Mercedes) Mercedes lack of pace towards the end of this season suggests that they will dominate early after the radical reg 2014 change but thats a debate for another thread

 

Mercedes may or may not dominate in 2014, but it will not automatically happen just because they switch focus to the next season early. After all, BMW also did the same in the second half of 2008, yet their 2009 car was anything but dominant.

[ThomFi]

 

to a fellow twit. 

 

My English might be (or is) crap, but I was obviously not talking about Ferrari. It's rather telling that Ferrari comes to your mind.

[Kingshark]

In 2003 and 2006, the main problem with the McLaren was that it simply was not fast enough. I also doubt you can blame the MP4-18/19 fiasco entirely on Mercedes. Maybe you should give at least some credit to Red Bull's management and their hundreds of other employees for the success ?

 

Why was the 2003 McLaren not fast enough? 

[sensible]

I thik its pretty typical of the sloppy thinking that surrounds F1 in general (especially in the media) that anyone would say that it is only down to Newey that Vettel wins. Lets be realistic, before Vettel came, Newey's last title was in 1999 - thats 11 years before!

Any win is a combination of car design, team and driver. To say it is just the designer, or just the driver is ridiculous. It is all of them.

However certain people make a difference. Vettel seems to have unlocked something in Newey's designs that drivers had struggled to do in the previous 10 years. And that probably fed back to Newey and reignited him to do more of his magic that brought more out of Vettel. I'm obviously ignoring the team thing here completely, but the driver designer relationship here is a symbiosis.

Anyone who thinks its just Vettel is an idiot.  But anyone who thinks its just the car or just Newey is just as big an idiot. Vettel has something that makes Neweys geniius work (or Newey has something that makes Vettel's genius work). But thats one of the signs of a true great. You need to bring out the greatness of others.  All the great drivers has some kind of relationship with their team or designer. You need that to be in harmony.

 

Now look more closely at what hapens with Newey/Vettel

Vettel gave Newey his first post-mac win, but in a torro rosso - the b team, nota red bull

Often the red bull isnt great to start the season, but it always finishes well - thats not just Newey, thats feedback. From who? Doesnt take a genius to work out

Designers dont design a car for a driver - they design it to be as fast as they think they can make it - anyone who thinks otherwise has no concept of the physical principals involved

Very occasionally they may strike lucky and just make a great car, bust most times, its the interaction with the driver that make it truly great

With Newey, in his pre redbull cars, he usually made a "great" car at the start of the season and then the opposition caught up (hakkinen, hill)

But with red bull he made good cars that got better

A big part of that has to be vettel (or webber making cars that are more suited to his teammate)

Vettel always gets better towards the end of a season

That is why to say that he is just riding Newey wagons, is not to understand the situation

Sure, Newey is a genius

But it takes a top top to driver to exploit it to its full potential

And Vettel has done that better than any other driver Newey has ever had.

Edited by sensible, 27 September 2013 - 00:07.

[bourbon]

Should the post title not be:

 

STRATOSPHERIC NEWEY OR IS IT VETTEL'S DRIVING?

 

My opinion is that Vettel is Button level in talent but that this generation of Newey cars has been designed to suit the current regs to a degree other teams cannot match, be it through money or ingenuity.  I don't rate Webber - neither have any top teams.

Watching Vettel's on-board footage never makes me think that he is in the same league as Alonso or Hamilton who regularly out drive their machinery.  

 

Well I don't know if Button is in Sebastian's league, but I think he is at least in Alonso and Hamilton's league.  Newey + team have created phenomenal cars, but see sensible's  post above for how it works. 

[Cool Beans]

Why was the 2003 McLaren not fast enough? 

It was the previous year's car, they only intended to run it for a few races but their new car was so unreliable they had to run it for the entire season and fell behind on development.