153 replies to this topic

[pilota]

There are lots of discussions about the best ever F1 driver, but I wonder who is considered the worst ever, and why?
Nathan
PS if this has been discussed before please point me towards the right thread, and ignore this one - thanks

[Amphicar]

There was a topic with exactly that title on the Racing Comments Forum: http://forums.autosp...w...68&hl=worst

[PRD]

There was a topic with exactly that title on the Racing Comments Forum: http://forums.autosp...w...68&hl=worst

Too many idiotic fanboy comments on that forum

[pilota]

There was a topic with exactly that title on the Racing Comments Forum: http://forums.autosp...w...68&hl=worst

You know what, I only ever read this forum, so I'd be interested in what tnfers think.
Nathan

[Allen Brown]

Definitely a question for RC. Anyone good enough for F1 is quicker than ordinary mortals will ever be so it's a pointless debate. You'll just end up insulting a series of perfectly adequate drivers.

[Ross Stonefeld]

That said a lot of perfectly adequate drivers don't know when to quit while they're ahead, get in over their heads, and deserve at least a little scorn for wandering around and pretending they're a Grand Prix Driver© when really all they're doing is driving a Grand Prix car. Poorly.

[Keir]

And who said we couldn't get a typical RC response over here at TNF ??

[Hamish Robson]

There was a story from I-dont'-know-who: Said story-teller was at Brands Hatch for F1 practice and spotted Jenks watching proceedings. When asked who was going quickly that day, Jenks replied "They all are".

[bigears]

There was a story from I-dont'-know-who: Said story-teller was at Brands Hatch for F1 practice and spotted Jenks watching proceedings. When asked who was going quickly that day, Jenks replied "They all are".

That's entirely true, if I did ask Jenks that question that I would accept the fact that the drivers are quicker than me or most of the people in this forum if we did jump into a F1 car at the time!

The drivers earned a place amongst the roster of F1 drivers through different reasons, talent or money or other things.

[plutoman]

Definitely a question for RC. Anyone good enough for F1 is quicker than ordinary mortals will ever be so it's a pointless debate. You'll just end up insulting a series of perfectly adequate drivers.

I would imagine there's thousands of talented but underfunded drivers who never made it to F1 who would disagree. True, you need some ability to get there, but not always an awful lot. 'Perfectly adequate' is hardly a ringing endorsement of what is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor sport. In the late 80s / early 90s there were quite a few 'adequate' drivers with big cheque books filling the bottom half of the grid, particularly at the end of season races.

[ryan86]

I think what also hinders discussions is when names like Massa, Maldonado or Badoer come up, good drivers who have flaws or things that just didn't work out, but can't seriously be thought of as the worst.

[ensign14]

Definitely a question for RC. Anyone good enough for F1 is quicker than ordinary mortals will ever be so it's a pointless debate.

I would beg to differ in the case of Otto Stuppacher. In terms of pace he was slower than Chanoch Nissany, who was basically a businessman who bought his way into lower formulae drives for a few years before being Jordan's third man once; I would guess Nissany is as close to a man on the Clapham omnibus benchmark as anyone.

Unless anyone can come up with any reason why Stuppacher was getting on for half a minute slower than someone like Alessandro Pesenti-Rossi in an identical Tyrrell...like Bernie had sold him an F3 engine or something.

[Allen Brown]

I would beg to differ in the case of Otto Stuppacher. In terms of pace he was slower than Chanoch Nissany, who was basically a businessman who bought his way into lower formulae drives for a few years before being Jordan's third man once; I would guess Nissany is as close to a man on the Clapham omnibus benchmark as anyone.

Unless anyone can come up with any reason why Stuppacher was getting on for half a minute slower than someone like Alessandro Pesenti-Rossi in an identical Tyrrell...like Bernie had sold him an F3 engine or something.

Firstly, look up Stuppacher's record in German and Austrian hillclimbs and you'll see that he had genuine ability. He spent years thrashing a Porsche 910 up European mountains - often winning - and I doubt any of us here could have got close to him. Secondly, the Tyrrells might have been identical when they were built but the engines were worlds apart and the preparation probably wasn't up to much either. Have anyone checked if he had tyre problems in practice or a persistent misfire?

And as for Pesenti-Rossi, check out his record in Italian F3. He's have won the 1975 title if the last race hadn't been rained off when he was leading.

This is why I think these debates are pointless. If you just look at the bald statistics of someone's F1 career, you have no way of measuring their real ability.

[ensign14]

And Stuppacher teamed with Lauda in the early stages of the latter's career. This is why I would love to see if there was something seriously wrong with the Tyrrell he got. Pesenti-Rossi was averagely decent in F2, a sort of Piero Necchi/Harald Ertl type record, so would have been no great shakes compared to much the rest of the F1 field, yet he was far, far faster than Stuppacher than one would expect. Pesenti-Rossi put the ageing Tyrrell where one would expect it to be put, unless it were driven by a superstar; one would not expect it to be where Stuppacher put it.

If there was nothing wrong with the car, maybe it was having exposed wheels that spooked Stuppacher or something.

[RA Historian]

This is why I think these debates are pointless. If you just look at the bald statistics of someone's F1 career, you have no way of measuring their real ability.

Well said.

[cheapracer]

I think what also hinders discussions is when names like Massa, Maldonado or Badoer come up, good drivers who have flaws or things that just didn't work out, but can't seriously be thought of as the worst.

With these guys and many others who may appear to be "not up to it" on the surface, refering to their previous motor racing history that got them into F1 can be very enlightning as too how good they really are.

[john aston]

Can't say Richard Robarts ever struck me as over talented- the man who rose -and sank- without trace. But as has been said nobody who drives in GPs is slow . Some folk who drive historic f1 cars are unbelievably slow...

[john winfield]

Can't say Richard Robarts ever struck me as over talented- the man who rose -and sank- without trace. But as has been said nobody who drives in GPs is slow . Some folk who drive historic f1 cars are unbelievably slow...

...although I remember Richard Robarts as an impressively quick Formula 3 driver. '..rose without trace..' is a bit harsh!

[Bauble]

In an attempt to upset Amphicar might I suggest the Colin Chapman did not have what Martin Brundle might describe as a' stellar Formula 1 career'?

Reims!!

bauble.

[alansart]

In an attempt to upset Amphicar might I suggest the Colin Chapman did not have what Martin Brundle might describe as a' stellar Formula 1 career'?

Reims!!

bauble.

Nor did Bernie Ecclestone

[Giraffe]

what Martin Brundle might describe as a' stellar Formula 1 career'?

If Gerry Marshall had been able to fit into an F1 car, he might well have had a "Stella" Formula 1 career......

[stevewf1]

I don't know who the "worst" is and I don't care... One thing I do know however is they're all better than me because I never made it.

[RS250]

Coulthard went quite a long way on very little talent.
In fact he seems to be repeating the trick in his latest career.

[john winfield]

The wise old hands were right - they said this would get silly. David Coulthard...'very little talent'.... an interesting assessment!

I know this is all very subjective but the two Formula One drivers who made an impression on me were Pete Lovely and Giancarlo Martini. I knew nothing about Pete's rich racing history in the 1950s and 1960s and all I saw, at my first GP in 1970, was a Lotus 49 plodding very, very slowly around Brands Hatch, finishing 11 laps down at the end. Brabham and Rindt must have been lapping him every seven laps or so. At least Pete was having fun. I think.
Whereas Giancarlo Martini had the honour of driving a privateer GP Ferrari, and by 1976 this was almost unheard of. Here he was, at the Race of Champions, with the chance to help Lauda uphold the honour of Maranello. So he stuffs the 312T into the bank at Druids. On the warming-up lap. (He did a little better at the International Trophy but I don't think Enzo was rushing to sign him up). Interesting piece here by the way on the Ferrari / Everest / Minardi experiment:

http://webcache.goog...ww.google.co.uk

[Amphicar]

In an attempt to upset Amphicar might I suggest the Colin Chapman did not have what Martin Brundle might describe as a' stellar Formula 1 career'?

Reims!!

bauble.

True if you're only talking about driving - his F1 career as a designer/team owner wasn't too shabby (as Mr B might put it). Knowing your love for the beautiful game, Bauble, can I suggest a parallel with Alex Ferguson - his playing career was underwhelming but he has few peers as a manager. There! see what you've made me do.

[ryan86]

Ferguson did play for one of the best teams in Europe at the time, Dunfermline.

[Allen Brown]

He played No 9 for Rangers, having joined them for a then record fee. And was the Scottish league's top goalscorer one season.

OK, what talented individual is going to be insulted next?

I think might have to finally post on the blood pressure thread because this thread is driving me nuts!

[bradbury west]

In an attempt to upset Amphicar might I suggest the Colin Chapman did not have what Martin Brundle might describe as a' stellar Formula 1 career'?
bauble.

I do not usually read drivel-threads like this, based so much on uninformed and very subjective opinion, rather than real facts determined by actual knowledge of the situation. I leave that for the playground groups and certain TV programmes. Allen's response elsewhere prompted me to read it, and I feel that is my loss.
However, it is a fact that ACBC was the class of his field in sports cars in period, perhaps in an innovative car , and was invariably a match for Hawthorn, car for car, as he was for Jim Clark in an Elite, and whilst I carry no torch for JMH, he was quick.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 12 May 2011 - 12:06.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I wouldn't be too hard on this topic. It's already shown to be more historically rigorous than the Almost Moves thread.

[cheapracer]

Coulthard went quite a long way on very little talent.

And you don't find that contradictory at all I'm guessing.

I've never driven an F1 car (who has?) but I've driven and ridden some very fast equipment on track but nothing that remotely comes close to cars that go 200mph then stand on the brakes 50 yards before turn in .... little talent hey .....

[Catalina Park]

I always hate things being described as "the worst ever"
On the news they will describe things like "the worst serial killer" or "the worst mass murderer" it makes you wonder that if he was the worst mass murderer then who was the best?

Silly topic. Silly answers. Could be worse, could be "Who was the worst poster in TNF?" I think I could win that one.

[Giraffe]

Something along the lines of this has been around before; I should know as I started it!

http://forums.autosp...hl=Worst driver

And IIRC the second post told me that someting along the lines of this had been around before.......

As I say, I started it and on reflection consider it to have been in poor taste.......

[Ross Stonefeld]

Though we'd have to limit it to 'official' drives, in which case Chanoch Nissany (Minardi, Hunarian GP, 2004ish?) would be a strong contender.

[D-Type]

There are lots of discussions about the best ever F1 driver, but I wonder who is considered the worst ever, and why?
Nathan
PS if this has been discussed before please point me towards the right thread, and ignore this one - thanks

Have you found the Formula 1 Rejects website yet? It should answer all your questions

Edited by D-Type, 12 May 2011 - 13:54.

[Macca]

Anyone of whom Martin Brundle has said in his commentary "he couldn't drive a nail into a piece of wood!"..............

Paul M

[RStock]

I think there is an easy answer to this but the driver's career was so short I'm not so sure it would qualify. Plus, I don't want to speak ill of the dead.

[SJ Lambert]

I don't recall either Michael Andretti or Alessandro Zanardi setting the world on fire in F1 - I'm certainly not suggesting that they were the worst, far from it - would have been nice to see them both have more success in the big league - they both had good machinery at time.

[Chris Townsend]

Can't say Richard Robarts ever struck me as over talented- the man who rose -and sank- without trace. But as has been said nobody who drives in GPs is slow . Some folk who drive historic f1 cars are unbelievably slow...

Robarts was rather good in Formula Ford, on a par with the likes of Henton in his first F3 season in 1973. Probably took his chance too soon, and good enough to be a midfield runner in F2 in 1976. Not overtalented but quicker than you or me I suspect...

[rallen]

How about Dave Walker? in lower formula he has an amazing record but no points in a Lotus 72 when your team mate wins the championship...

[cheapracer]

I think there is an easy answer to this but the driver's career was so short I'm not so sure it would qualify.

I'm sure you innocently didn't see your own pun there ...

[RStock]

the driver's career was so short I'm not so sure it would qualify

.

I'm sure you innocently didn't see your own pun there ...

Ha. No, I didn't notice. He did qualify though. Once, which was the begining of his end. Before I am chastised for being so cryptic, I will say the driver I am refering to is Mario Alborghetti.

Qualified for the '55 Pau GP at the back of the grid in a Scuderia Volpini Maserati. He was well off pace when he crashed on lap 19, killing himself and injuring many spectators. Looks to have had only three or four sport car races in total before Pau. He had no business in an F1 car from what I can tell.

Edited by REDARMYSOJA, 13 May 2011 - 22:34.

[Glengavel]

Coulthard went quite a long way on very little talent.

I thought it was the other way round.

In fact he seems to be repeating the trick in his latest career.

It's a brave man who disses Crazy D!

[LittleChris]

. Ha. No, I didn't notice. He did qualify though. Once, which was the begining of his end. Before I am chastised for being so cryptic, I will say the driver I am refering to is Mario Alborghetti.

Qualified for the '55 Pau GP at the back of the grid in a Scuderia Volpini Maserati. He was well off pace when he crashed on lap 19, killing himself and many spectators. Looks to have had only three or four sport car races in total before Pau. He had no business in an F1 car from what I can tell.

I think a number of spectators were injured but don't think any were killed. You're right however he appears to have been totally out of his depth and was the first person I thought of when this thread appeared.

[RStock]

I think a number of spectators were injured but don't think any were killed. You're right however he appears to have been totally out of his depth and was the first person I thought of when this thread appeared.

You are correct, my post should have read "and injuring many spectators."

[Kop Alonso]

How about Francois Hesnault , he was dominated by deCesaris in 84, did a handlfull of races in the BT 54 then ............gone

[LittleChris]

To be fair he did have a massive accident at the flat out Verrerie esses at Ricard in which I believe he was trapped in the car by the catch fencing and that was probably enough for him given his poor season so far. Of course de Angelis died in a Brabham at pretty much the same place a couple of years later

[Kop Alonso]

He did race the Renault camera car in Germany in 85 though.....

[millau]

Coulthard went quite a long way on very little talent.
In fact he seems to be repeating the trick in his latest career.

Check out

Youtube

David Coulthard - Crashes & funny moments

Including soundtrack

"Always look on the bright side of life"

baboom baboom baboom

Paid well !!
M

[rl1856]

Ronnie Bucknam. In 1964, he was chosen by Honda to drive their new F-1 car. His experience to that point had consisted of club races on the west coast of the US...in an MGB. Honda chose him because he would be inadequate. Failure could be blamed on him and deflected from the car and Honda. He did not disappoint, though the chassis did not handle well and the engine was extremely unreliable.

Count Carel Godin de Beaufort was content to putter around the back of the grid in his ancient Porsche single seater. By all accounts he was a very nice person, but without a doubt he was a moving chicane on the track. He died in a crash at the 'Ring in 1964.

Michael Andretti and Alex Zanardi are 2 drivers who tried to make the jump from US single seaters to F-1. Michael's F-1 career was controversial (still is...). Near the end of his tenure with McLaren he did turn in some very credible drives, including a come through the field effort at Monza where he finished on the podium. No assessment of his F-1 career would be fair without considering all of the off track politics and BS that he went through.

Don't know much about Zanardi, but I suspect there were team and car issues at play.


Best,

Ross

[Allen Brown]

I'm going to assume that you haven't looked up Bucknum's exact record in SCCA events. Nor Godin de Beaufort's in sports cars. And that you had failed to noticed Andretti's CART title before he went into F1.

But I am willing to complete believe you when you say don't know much about Zanardi.