29 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

Was it Boris Said at Rouen in 1953? This is what it says in an encyclopedia I have. However, someone told me that this wasn't true. A couple of drivers won before Boris did in Europe. I can't remember who there were but it seems that one was supposed to be Herbert Mackey Fraser. I think the other was Luigi Chinetti Sr. who was thought to have been an American citizen in the early 1950's.

This could be a tough one.

[Egon Thurner]

Chinetti 16-11-1947 Salon (Talbot-Lago 'Monoplace Decalée)

Have a look to the 'Ecurie francaises'-Thread, also!

[David McKinney]

Mack Fraser didn't race in Europe till well after Bob Said.
And I always have difficulty with Chinetti (Sr). At what point did he cease to be Italian and turn into an American? And wasn't he French in there somewhere too? Should his nationality be defined by his country of birth (Italy), residence (probably France in 1947) or passport? Presuming he did become a US citizen, the next question is, when?

[David M. Kane]

I thought Luigi was still in Italy in 1947?

[PDA]

What about Harry Schell?

[Gil Bouffard]

PDA's question. What about Harry Schell?

As Mike knows I am researching Harry and his family. Harry's first win was:
1949 Grand Prix at Sarrebruck FS Talbot
1950 Salon Sport Cup FS Talbot

Before this, he raced a 1937 Maserati and laterly a Cisitalia with not a lot of success.

Gil

[Joe Fan]

I guess it may be more appropriate to state that Boris Said was the first American-trained or American-born driver to win a post-war race in Europe. However, supposedly Herbert Mackey-Fraser won at Oulton Park around the same time as Boris did but my reference books states that he didn't go over to race in Europe until 1955.

Does anyone know when Luigi Chinetti Sr. officially became an American citizen?

[Paul Medici]

Joe Fan
During the war years Luigi worked as a mechanic in New York City; became an American citizen in 1946.
REF: FERRARI The Man, The Machines, p.177
Regards,PM

[Ray Bell]

If he never relinquished his US citizenship, then, this would seem to put the seal on his claim.

[Gil Bouffard]

Come on, Mike!

Why didn't you say. "Person born on American soil." That means that Chinetti and any naturalized or foreign born American is not to be considered.

Harry Schell was born to American Parents, was registered at the American Embassy and served in the American Army during WWII. Harry Schell was also the first American to score points in what is today, called the World Driver's Championship!

Gil

[Hans Etzrodt]

Bob Said won at Rouen in 1952 in an OSCA sports car. He is the first American winner in a minor race according to Cutter/Fendell.

[Joe Fan]

Paul, thanks for that information! I looked for that fact myself and I can tell you that little bit of information is not easy to find.

Gil, perhaps I should use "American-trained" but I think most people would understand "American-born" as someone born on U.S. soil. What does everyone else think about this? Agree or disagree?

Hans, my Guinness Grand Prix Who's Who states that Boris won at Rouen in 1953. So was it 1952 or 1953?

[Hans Etzrodt]

This question should be answered by one of our 50's specialists. Because I am a pre 50's addict, I cannot help you further. But Don Capps, Michael Ferner and Tony Kaye come to my mind. Sorry you other 50's experts, which I fogot to mention here.

[Hans Etzrodt]

GRAND PRIX RACING Facts & Figures by George Monkhouse and Roland King-Farlow show that Luigi Chinetti won the Paris 12 Hours in 1948 driving a Darracq and with co-driver Lord Selsdon at 72.54 mph.

By the way, Chinetti should be acknowledged here as an American driver, the same way Mario Andretti is accepted as American although he was born and raised in Italy.

Bill Boddy writes about this race in his book Montlhéry, "On 12 September, 1948 a more important race was held at Montlhéry, in the form of a twelve-hour sports car contest. Chinetti convincingly demonstrated the speed and reliability of the vee-twelve 2-litre sports Ferrari by driving it single-handed, with two pit-stops for fuel, to win at an average speed of 72.96 mph. Besides his two refueling stops the Italian got a fingernail caught in the horn-push, which somehow I find amusing. This necessitated another stop, and two more pit-stops were made for tyre changes; on one occasion, when a wheel refused to come off, the tire was changed on the rim. Yet the Ferrari won easily!"

Additionally, Robert Cutter and Bob Fendell write about the same race in the Encyclopedia of AUTO RACING GREATS "Chinetti still was not through as a driver, however. In 1947 - when he was 41 - he brought a 2-litre (Ferrari) to Montlhéry and won the 12-Hour Race at 72.96 mph; a feat he repeated in 1950 at 69.4 mph."

And lastly as an appendage for the more serious amongst us to lessen the confusion, this is what I found in The MOTOR Year Book 1949 compiled by no less then Laurence Pomeroy and Rodney Walker, both Editors of "The Motor". Only the results were shown here of "The Paris Twelve Hours Sports Car Race. Date: September 12 (1948); 1. Chinetti (Ferrari 2-litre) 1,401 km (72.96 mph)."

[Gil Bouffard]

I give up

[Ray Bell]

And someone told me Monkhouse/King Farlow were out of date and useless...

It strikes me, Gil, that Chinetti, despite the passport he carried, was as Italian as the pope if he didn't go to America until he was mid-thirties.

At least Andretti was there before he grew right up...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Joe Fan
Paul, thanks for that information! I looked for that fact myself and I can tell you that little bit of information is not easy to find.

Gil, perhaps I should use "American-trained" but I think most people would understand "American-born" as someone born on U.S. soil. What does everyone else think about this? Agree or disagree?

Hans, my Guinness Grand Prix Who's Who states that Boris won at Rouen in 1953. So was it 1952 or 1953?

bob Said won at Rouen in 1953.

[David McKinney]

The difficulty of defining ‘American driver’ has already been touched on. Regardless of their citizenship, neither Chinetti nor Schell was a product of US racing, and nor was another possible candidate, Philip Schell, who won F3 races at Pau and Orléans in 1951. Tom Cole, who won the 1953 Rheims 12hr race in a C-type Jaguar (with Peter Whitehead) was the opposite: although born in the UK, and starting his career there, he could fairly be described as a product of the US system, as that is where he made his name. Fraser did not race in Europe until 1955 - and was in any case as much a child of Brazilian racing as of the US school.
So that brings us back to Said’s OSCA win at Rouen in 1953 or Bill Spear’s class win at Silverstone in a Ferrari 340 in July of the same year.

For Gil’s benefit, Harry Schell’s first European win was with the Cisitalia in his class of the Chimay race on 25/5/47 and his next in the sportscar race at Montlhéry in October 1949. The year after that he won his heat of the F3 race at Monaco, his heat of the Aix-les-Bains F2 race, and the final of the Grenoble F3 race, all in Cooper-JAPs.

(I posted this is another thread by mistake)

[Joe Fan]

Gil, how about US-born? I sense this is an emotional topic for you but please read David's response above and my response to Hans below.

Roger to the rescue! Thanks Roger, even posted the picture.

Hans, I don't necessarily think Luigi should be viewed the same as Mario Andretti because Luigi grew up in Italy and was a product of the European racing system. Mario came to the U.S. as an adolescent but more importantly was a product of the U.S. racing system, first cutting his teeth on dirt ovals in Pennsylvania. Despite this fact, many Europeans try to downplay Mario's accomplishments as an American citizen since he wasn't born a U.S. citizen and didn't grow up his whole life in the U.S.

The whole point in this issue is to identify American drivers who were truly pioneers and the first to win in Europe. To me this would have to be someone who at least was U.S.-trained and a product of the U.S. racing system when it comes to racing in Europe. However, a U.S.-born and trained driver should be viewed with a little more admiration since they could have easily been drawn into a successful career in IndyCars or NASCAR. Whether one wants to admit it or not, politics of varying degrees are a part of any motorsports series when it comes to those who didn't come up through normal career pathways for a respective series. And the politics of Formula One and within non-American racing teams probably were somewhat of a deterrent for some Americans who considered racing in non-U.S.-based series. Tim Considine's book American Grand Prix Racing highlights some of the politics I am referring too. Even today, Europeans and Americans cannot even play golf together without mild controversy.

To illustrate a point, sometime in the early sixties at one of the British Grand Prix, someone had written in chalk "Yankee go home" on Dan Gurney's transporter. I am not trying to stir up trouble or make any Europeans feel ashamed or feel guilty but somehow I don't see this happening to Harry Schell, Luigi Chinetti Sr. or Mario Andretti. At some point, one has to have a little bit more admiration for what drivers like Fred Wacker, Robert O'Brien, Boris Said, Masten Gregory, Phil Hill etc. did.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Joe Fan
To illustrate a point, sometime in the early sixties at one of the British Grand Prix, someone had written in chalk "Yankee go home" on Dan Gurney's transporter.

I'd not heard that before. It's very sad but emphatically not typical. Dan was very popular in Britain; I remember seeing "Go, Gurney, Go" writen on the pit straight at Silversone, and they didn't mean Go home.

[fines]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
I remember seeing "Go, Gurney, Go" writen on the pit straight at Silversone, and they didn't mean Go home.

Barry, what colour did you use?

[Joe Fan]

Roger, I seen that "Yankee go home" deal on one of John Tate's "A Gentleman's Racing Diary" tapes. I actually thought it was a bit funny.

[Rob G]

Actually, Jimmy Murphy was the first American to win a post-war race in Europe, the 1921 French GP. Of course, that was post-WWI.

[Tim Murray]

I’m reviving this ancient thread to ask whether anyone has come up with any more info on exactly when Luigi Chinetti became a US citizen. Most online sources say 1946, but his Wiki entry says that he first applied for citizenship in 1947 and took the oath of allegiance on 6th March 1950. If this is correct, he would presumably not have been a US citizen when he won Le Mans in 1949.

[Geoff E]

I’m reviving this ancient thread to ask whether anyone has come up with any more info on exactly when Luigi Chinetti became a US citizen. Most online sources say 1946, but his Wiki entry says that he first applied for citizenship in 1947 and took the oath of allegiance on 6th March 1950. If this is correct, he would presumably not have been a US citizen when he won Le Mans in 1949.

 

A Passenger Manifest dated 23rd Dec 1949 has his nationality as Italian. https://www.familyse...7J1&action=view

 

The 1950 US Census (1st April 1950) has "Yes" in the "Is he Naturalized?" column. https://www.familyse...QRD&action=view

 

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[Vitesse2]

A Passenger Manifest dated 23rd Dec 1949 has his nationality as Italian. https://www.familyse...7J1&action=view

 

The 1950 US Census (1st April 1950) has "Yes" in the "Is he Naturalized?" column. https://www.familyse...QRD&action=view

 

You may need to register to view these images.

On another passenger list dated May 5th 1949, he is stated to be Italian. Air France flight 008/90 from New York to Paris on F-BAZI, a Constellation. That was presumably his outward journey to Le Mans.

 

Among the other passengers were a contingent of jazz musicians, including Sidney Bechet, Kenny Clarke, Tedley Dameron, Kenny Dorham, Oran 'Hot Lips' Page, Charlie Parker and Miles Davis. Might have been an interesting trip!

[Vitesse2]

Unlike some states, the original New York petitions aren't apparently online, but this index card is on Ancestry:

 

[Tim Murray]

That settles it pretty conclusively. Thanks Geoff and Richard.

[Tim Murray]

On another passenger list dated May 5th 1949, he is stated to be Italian. Air France flight 008/90 from New York to Paris on F-BAZI, a Constellation. That was presumably his outward journey to Le Mans.

Among the other passengers were a contingent of jazz musicians, including Sidney Bechet, Kenny Clarke, Tedley Dameron, Kenny Dorham, Oran 'Hot Lips' Page, Charlie Parker and Miles Davis. Might have been an interesting trip!

The jazz musicians were arriving in good time for this:

[Doug Nye]

I’m reviving this ancient thread to ask whether anyone has come up with any more info on exactly when Luigi Chinetti became a US citizen. Most online sources say 1946, but his Wiki entry says that he first applied for citizenship in 1947 and took the oath of allegiance on 6th March 1950. If this is correct, he would presumably not have been a US citizen when he won Le Mans in 1949.

 

Luigi Sr's US naturalisation Oath of Allegiance was indeed finally sworn by him as late as March 6, 1950, in the Southern District of New York Federal Court. His certificate of naturalisation was issued at that point.

 

Interestingly the witnesses for his successful Petititon for Naturalisation - filed on February 2, 1950 - were Yora Arkus-Duntov (brother of the better remembered Zora - and with whom Chinetti had worked at Ardun), and retired US Navy Commander Harold F. MacHugh, who was a prominent American vintagent at the time, owning both a Bugatti Type 43 and an Alfa Romeo 8C-2300 - a model upon which Chinetti had considerable expertise, not least having prepared and driven the Le Mans-winning examples in both 1932 and '34.  MacHugh lived in Manhattan, Luigi Sr had settled in New York with wife Marion and young son Luigi Jr, and MacHugh was a very experienced naval engineer, prominent within the East Coast old-car world...explaining the relationship. Where naturalisation was concerned one can visualise the support of such a relatively high-ranking US service veteran proving very influential.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, Yesterday, 07:51.