496 replies to this topic

[john aston]

# 431 - AAA- Eagle-  For most people the golden era of motor sport (and much else ) was the time when they were between 15 and 25, regardless of the actual dates . I lived through and enjoyed the Cevert era , but youthful rose tinted specs aside,. there was far more for me to enjoy in the decade between 1984 and 1994 . I don't miss a GP now , even when it's in  a Middle Eastern  hell hole like Qatar . F1 is still as it was ever was, brave and skilled young men (so far) doing impossible things in extraordinarily potent machines . 

Edited by john aston, 10 October 2023 - 05:56.

[Henri Greuter]

Was Revson not in discussion with Ferrari at the end of 73 ? Pretty sure I've read something along those lines

 

 

According the Heinz Pruller Grand Prix Story '74  annual he was. And he was close to making a deal too but then, among other things (But you know my main interest in racing and thus why I remember the following detail printed in that annual)  he backtracked on the fact that he was not permitted to drive at Indy and wanted to do that race after all. By then Ferrari cancelled the deal. But there still was contact between Revson and Ferrari with an eye on the future. 

Kyalami ended all that.

 

The same publication also stated that Revson did leave McLaren after he found out that the "Nice Smell" Mac was definitely the third team car and the "Awful Smell" Macs the prime battlewagons for the team.

[Henri Greuter]

I really think those photos were Photoshopped, Henri, by someone of a fair bit of demented character.

 

 

Thanks E1pix.

But nevertheless, as much as I can take when it comes doing so for research purposes, I don't think I can bring myself to look them up again to confirm you are right.

[ensign14]

I have also seen a pic from the film Rush which was put forward as being of Koinigg's accident - it was certainly "inspired" by it.

[rl1856]

Michael Ferner, on 07 Oct 2023 - 03:52, said:

In this video they talk about François receiving offers from other teams, which teams does anyone know?

Shadow and Ferrari. Both Don Nichols and Enzo Ferrari were planning to reinforce their teams with future champion.

 

This have been discussed here: https://forums.autos...rt-shadow-1974/

 

"Cevert, not knowing that Jackie Stewart was retiring, and that he was to lead Tyrrell in 1974, had signed a letter of intent with Shadow. Revson was only finally confirmed with Shadow after Francois' demise, although he was torn between Shadow and Ferrari, but Cevert's sudden removal from the equation, prompted Revson and Shadow to join forces”.

 

 

 

If Revson had gone to Ferrari, who would have been out- Lauda or Regga ?   My bet is on the former, and the team would have lost his testing and development skill.  In that light would Ferrari have achieved what they achieved in 74-75 ?

 

 

The posts quoted above point to what I have wondered about:

 

At what point was Scheckter signed by Tyrell ?  There were some indications that he signed before Watkins Glen, meaning that Cevert thought he would leave, or that Tyrell would run a 3 car team.  If true, what was Scheckter told about the 74 driver lineup ?

[Richard Jenkins]

Michael Ferner, on 07 Oct 2023 - 03:52, said:
Shadow and Ferrari. Both Don Nichols and Enzo Ferrari were planning to reinforce their teams with future champion.

This have been discussed here: https://forums.autos...rt-shadow-1974/

"Cevert, not knowing that Jackie Stewart was retiring, and that he was to lead Tyrrell in 1974, had signed a letter of intent with Shadow. Revson was only finally confirmed with Shadow after Francois' demise, although he was torn between Shadow and Ferrari, but Cevert's sudden removal from the equation, prompted Revson and Shadow to join forces”.



If Revson had gone to Ferrari, who would have been out- Lauda or Regga ? My bet is on the former, and the team would have lost his testing and development skill. In that light would Ferrari have achieved what they achieved in 74-75 ?


The posts quoted above point to what I have wondered about:

At what point was Scheckter signed by Tyrell ? There were some indications that he signed before Watkins Glen, meaning that Cevert thought he would leave, or that Tyrell would run a 3 car team. If true, what was Scheckter told about the 74 driver lineup ?

Firstly, two rrs and two lls for Tyrrell.

Scheckter signed for Tyrrell on the Friday of Watkins Glen. He was told it would be a two car team but not to say any more to anyone until the end of the weekend. He was puzzled as to his teammate would be but did as he was told
Cevert was not told Scheckter had signed but Jackie was informed.

Cevert was in talks with Ferrari and Lotus but Jackie persuaded him to wait until the end of the season.

Sources: Jody Scheckter, Bob Tyrrell and Jackie Stewart to me for Tyrrell: The Story of the Tyrrell Racing Organisation.

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 10 October 2023 - 17:33.

[Henri Greuter]

According the Heinz Pruller Grand Prix Story '74  annual he was. And he was close to making a deal too but then, among other things (But you know my main interest in racing and thus why I remember the following detail printed in that annual)  he backtracked on the fact that he was not permitted to drive at Indy and wanted to do that race after all. By then Ferrari cancelled the deal. But there still was contact between Revson and Ferrari with an eye on the future. 

Kyalami ended all that.

 

The same publication also stated that Revson did leave McLaren after he found out that the "Nice Smell" Mac was definitely the third team car and the "Awful Smell" Macs the prime battlewagons for the team.

Few more details as I looked them up in the Grand Prix Story:

 

Revson was told after wiinning Silverstone by Teddy Mayer to look for a new team. A deal with Ferrari was almost done with Lauda as team mate. Pruller mentions that Lauda had seen a press release announcing him and Revson to drive for Ferrari in 1974.

According Luca Di Montzemolo Revson then wanted the #1 driver position, first class tickets for transatlantic flights and permission for Indy. According Revson Ferrari paid $100.000 but also wanted Revson to do prototypse and then revson wanted $150.000.

 

(comment by me: that must have been taken place before Ferrari had decided on withdrawal from prototype racing since the had raced the 312PB's in '73 but quit racing them and/or follow-ups after that season.  Henri)

 

 

Then came the Yardley McLaren deal for which Revson apparently did sign a contract on okt 13th. Then he found out that this would be the third car and one week later he asked to be released from the contract and signed for Shadow instead

Supposedly, during the Argentine GP Revson went to see DiMontezemolo and suggested that they could talk about the future again when he had less obligations in the USA. DiMontezemolo apparently confirmed such to be possible.

 

So much for Revson as mentioned in Grand Prix Story 74

 

Stay tuned because....

[Henri Greuter]

 

Michael Ferner, on 07 Oct 2023 - 03:52, said:

Shadow and Ferrari. Both Don Nichols and Enzo Ferrari were planning to reinforce their teams with future champion.

 

This have been discussed here: https://forums.autos...rt-shadow-1974/

 

"Cevert, not knowing that Jackie Stewart was retiring, and that he was to lead Tyrrell in 1974, had signed a letter of intent with Shadow. Revson was only finally confirmed with Shadow after Francois' demise, although he was torn between Shadow and Ferrari, but Cevert's sudden removal from the equation, prompted Revson and Shadow to join forces”.

 

 

 

If Revson had gone to Ferrari, who would have been out- Lauda or Regga ?   My bet is on the former, and the team would have lost his testing and development skill.  In that light would Ferrari have achieved what they achieved in 74-75 ?

 

 

The posts quoted above point to what I have wondered about:

 

At what point was Scheckter signed by Tyrell ?  There were some indications that he signed before Watkins Glen, meaning that Cevert thought he would leave, or that Tyrell would run a 3 car team.  If true, what was Scheckter told about the 74 driver lineup ?

 

 

 

Firstly, two rrs and two lls for Tyrrell.

Scheckter signed for Tyrrell on the Friday of Watkins Glen. He was told it would be a two car team but not to say any more to anyone until the end of the weekend.
Cevert was not told Scheckter had signed but Jackie was informed.

Cevert was in talks with Ferrari and Lotus but Jackie persuaded him to wait until the end of the season.

Sources: Jody Scheckter, Bob Tyrrell and Jackie Stewart to me for Tyrrell: The Story of the Tyrrell Racing Organisation.

You just beated me!

 

I was to write down what Grand Prix Story '74  by Pruller mentioned about Schkter and Tyrrell!  Hence my comment stay tuned in my previous post

 

Pruller wrote that Scheckter had done a handshake deal with Tyrrell at Watkins Glen for 1974 as the no 2 of the team but Tyrrell urging Jody not to mention anything yet.

But no clues given if Jody knew to whom he would be the #2, let alone if he had any clues about Jackie. Pruller mentioned it to be behind Cevert but that could only hav been written as being what Ken Tyrrell knew.

But obviously, you were better informed.

Question still remains if Jody knew about Jackie yes or no and/or realizing that he could have pushed Francois out of the team should Jackie remain.

 

BTW thanks for sharing your first hand info!

[Richard Jenkins]

You just beated me!

I was to write down what Grand Prix Story '74 by Pruller mentioned about Schkter and Tyrrell! Hence my comment stay tuned in my previous post

Pruller wrote that Scheckter had done a handshake deal with Tyrrell at Watkins Glen for 1974 as the no 2 of the team but Tyrrell urging Jody not to mention anything yet.
But no clues given if Jody knew to whom he would be the #2, let alone if he had any clues about Jackie. Pruller mentioned it to be behind Cevert but that could only hav been written as being what Ken Tyrrell knew.
But obviously, you were better informed.
Question still remains if Jody knew about Jackie yes or no and/or realizing that he could have pushed Francois out of the team should Jackie remain.

BTW thanks for sharing your first hand info!

No worries. There's no point writing a comprehensive book on the team if I can't share some memories and answer questions. Of course, if you want to know more, buy the book lol

Anyway, to answer your question, Jody did not know about Jackie until after Francois' death.

[Henri Greuter]

No worries. There's no point writing a comprehensive book on the team if I can't share some memories and answer questions. Of course, if you want to know more, buy the book lol

Anyway, to answer your question, Jody did not know about Jackie until after Francois' death.

If you had written a two-piece volume, before and after 1984 I for sure would have gone for Vol. One until 1984.

1984 made me lose every respect I had for Tyrrell up till that moment.

[Richard Jenkins]

If you had written a two-piece volume, before and after 1984 I for sure would have gone for Vol. One until 1984.
1984 made me lose every respect I had for Tyrrell up till that moment.

I don't want to deviate too far off-topic here, but 1984 isn't quite as black and white as you might think.
Maybe send me a pm and I'll shed some more light on it if you're interested.

[Henri Greuter]

I don't want to deviate too far off-topic here, but 1984 isn't quite as black and white as you might think.
Maybe send me a pm and I'll shed some more light on it if you're interested.

Agree on not drifting off. But it still saddens me to talk about what was a special period of time with cars that I really liked to see and drivers I liked and respected  but when I remember what the future would bring.....

 

Though the '72 and '72 Tyrrells belong to my favourite F1 cars of all time, will always remain such. Sadly enough, I have more cars I loved to look at but that became infamous for being lethal to one of thier drivers.

 

I must think about your offer. There are a few acts within F1 history when for me a red line was neglected, The dirty hands of uncle Ken's mechanics was one of them, no matter the excuse for it. But thanks for the offer Please give me some time to think about it.

[Gabrci]

 

Pruller wrote that Scheckter had done a handshake deal with Tyrrell at Watkins Glen for 1974 as the no 2 of the team but Tyrrell urging Jody not to mention anything yet.

But no clues given if Jody knew to whom he would be the #2, let alone if he had any clues about Jackie. Pruller mentioned it to be behind Cevert but that could only hav been written as being what Ken Tyrrell knew.

 

That dynamics would have been interesting, I can't see how Schecker wouldn't have had the measure of Cevert very easily. Cevert was a fine driver and by all accounts an amazing person, however looking at it pragmatically he won a single race while his teammate won 15, that's about as close as Irvine was. I can't help thinking that #2 Scheckter would have ended Cevert's topline career. 

[Dave Ware]

... looking at it pragmatically he won a single race while his teammate won 15, that's about as close as Irvine was.

 

Yes, but his teammate was Jackie Stewart.  How many of Clark's teammates beat him?  I don't hold it against anyone for not beating those two. 

 

I'm not sure that Irvine is a good comparison.  Eddie had several years of F1 experience while Francois had none.  The video I posted a few days ago is worth the 20 minutes.  I learned a few things I didn't know, like how green Francois was when he joined Tyrrell.  He certainly wasn't in a position to challenge Stewart until later. 

 

Since I'm here, I'll tie up a few loose ends. 

 

I had said that Revson received an offer of $150,000 to drive for Ferrari, but in checking Revson's book, I see that it was $100,000, as Henri posted above.  Also, I said that Revson received a contract by Telex for Ferrari but it was actually an invitation to visit Maranello and meet with Enzo.  Not quite the same thing.  Note to self:  don't trust your memory in matters that can easily be verified.  Now, where did I put my keys....

 

Regarding the rumor that Revvie might drive for Eagle: he was in contact with Gurney about a possible F1 and F5000 deal for '74.  Gurney was somewhere in the process of designing and building his dual purpose 74A F5000/F1 car, but would have had to put the program together, which I presume means finding sponsorship, so it never became a viable option.  But I can imagine how any efforts Gurney may have made to find sponsorship would have set the rumor mill going, which could certainly make it's way to Powerslide, thus encouraging them to report it as a possibility.

 

[john aston]

Agree on not drifting off. But it still saddens me to talk about what was a special period of time with cars that I really liked to see and drivers I liked and respected  but when I remember what the future would bring.....

 

Though the '72 and '72 Tyrrells belong to my favourite F1 cars of all time, will always remain such. Sadly enough, I have more cars I loved to look at but that became infamous for being lethal to one of thier drivers.

 

I must think about your offer. There are a few acts within F1 history when for me a red line was neglected, The dirty hands of uncle Ken's mechanics was one of them, no matter the excuse for it. But thanks for the offer Please give me some time to think about it.

As Richard says , buy the book and you may view the events of 1984 from  a different perspective. I know that I did . 

 

But whatever , it is still part of the story. I am reviewing Damien Smith's excellent new book on Benetton and the fact that Crashgate- Singapore 2008 - showed that at least two of the team  were unprincipled rogues makes the story all the  more alluring. Off topic , but how curious  that Nelson Piquet has effectively  been barred from the F1 paddock for a stupid racist comment and yet one of the people involved in Crashgate has now been rehabilitated- words speak louder than actions it seems ...

[davidbuckden]

This has developed into an increasingly interesting thread and the various tangential excursions are enjoyable. I can't help but feel that there's been a definite mawkish element behind a lot of the recent, anniversary-related interest - not especially so here though -  because of the notoriously grim nature of Cevert's death.  As I believed at the time, he was nowhere near the JYS level and I was a little concerned about a potentially disruptive effect his presence might have in the team.

 

Regarding '84, I think the weight/fuel issues provided a focus for multiple-source resentments and Ken could well have felt the victim of what we now call a pile on.  I have no doubt that Richard is THE authority on Tyrrell and this issue, but as a succinct resource I feel that a look at Tom Prankerd's 2016 blog article is rewarding.  This concludes with:

 

Thus while Barnard and Head helped as individuals there was no rush for anyone to defend Tyrrell, who had clashed with just about every other team owner at some point in the past three years. Besides which, Formula 1 is a tough business. Two fewer cars meant two fewer to outqualify or overtake and most of the smaller teams were more interested in whether the standings for the races so far would be updated to promote those who had finished behind the Tyrrells. The team no longer had much box-office value to save it either - the days of Stewart, Cevert, Peterson, Scheckter and Depaillier having long since gone, Tyrrell just being another midfielder now. Compare and contrast the punishment doled out to Tyrrell with the lack of action taken on widespread rumours Brabham ran with illegal fuel in 1983.

It remains one of the most ignominious disqualifications in the sport's history. While the debate as to whether the team were infringing the rules or not will always remain open due to it being just as impossible to conclusively prove it either way today as it was in 1984 there can be little doubt that FISA handled the affair in a truly shambolic fashion, from the preposterous punishment to the ignoring of evidence to the charges being changed at the appeal stage.

[Collombin]

Quite apart from how convenient the punishment was, it was in no way reasonable based on the charges actually made against them. It's clear the powers that be thought they were running underweight and the punishment would have better fitted such a charge. So why weren't they charged with running underweight? Lack of proof? Then I wonder how the Renault appeal in Brazil 1982 was successful, as Piquet and Rosberg surely passed the end of race weight check.

I also don't quite follow the Tyrrell justification - did they think it was OK to run part of the race underweight as long as they passed the end of race check? There was a specific rule about having to prove that the cars were legal at all times. I'm not quite sure how they would go about doing that, but the rule was there.

Obviously the illegal fuel charges were nonsense, and the holes in the bottom a minor infringement at worst.

Imagine Imola 1985 with a 195 litre fuel limit....

[Henri Greuter]

 

 

Yes, but his teammate was Jackie Stewart.  How many of Clark's teammates beat him?  I don't hold it against anyone for not beating those two. 

 

I'm not sure that Irvine is a good comparison.  Eddie had several years of F1 experience while Francois had none.  The video I posted a few days ago is worth the 20 minutes.  I learned a few things I didn't know, like how green Francois was when he joined Tyrrell.  He certainly wasn't in a position to challenge Stewart until later. 

 

Since I'm here, I'll tie up a few loose ends. 

 

I had said that Revson received an offer of $150,000 to drive for Ferrari, but in checking Revson's book, I see that it was $100,000, as Henri posted above.  Also, I said that Revson received a contract by Telex for Ferrari but it was actually an invitation to visit Maranello and meet with Enzo.  Not quite the same thing.  Note to self:  don't trust your memory in matters that can easily be verified.  Now, where did I put my keys....

 

Regarding the rumor that Revvie might drive for Eagle: he was in contact with Gurney about a possible F1 and F5000 deal for '74.  Gurney was somewhere in the process of designing and building his dual purpose 74A F5000/F1 car, but would have had to put the program together, which I presume means finding sponsorship, so it never became a viable option.  But I can imagine how any efforts Gurney may have made to find sponsorship would have set the rumor mill going, which could certainly make it's way to Powerslide, thus encouraging them to report it as a possibility.

 

 

Your comment about team mates beating either Stewart or Clark, I was thinking along the same lines. We have seen more recent examples of a team being built around a clear #1 driver but Chapman&Clark and Tyrrell&Stewart remain among the strongest connetions ever between team owner and drivers that I can think of. It would have taken guts from Cevert and Clark's team mates to bet the undisputed favorite driver of the team boss on those occasions when it was possible to begin with.

I do remember comments even long after Stewart had retired and with new drivers being signed by Tyrrell all kind of comments by Ken Tyrrell about his new driver having a certain feature that he had not seen anymore since the days of working with Stewart. Not that I know where to find those right now, regrettably. But I know I've read them.

 

Anyway, I think it to be funny to read a lot of outcries about how in the recent past fans moaned and complained about certain teams (often of non-English heritage) favoured one certain driver heavily over his team mate. While at the same time we still a lot of universal praise all around for, among others, Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart. But if there are examples necessary to prove the efficiency of focussing team efforts on one driver, the best of them all, these two drivers and their teams belong to the best of the earliest examples to justify such an approach.

 

Regrettably we will never know if François was able to make another step up once Jackie was no longer driving anymore. I don't dare to predict if that would have been the case yes or no. I see arguements for both options, it would have been so interesting to see what would have happened. 

[ensign14]

I also don't quite follow the Tyrrell justification - did they think it was OK to run part of the race underweight as long as they passed the end of race check? There was a specific rule about having to prove that the cars were legal at all times. I'm not quite sure how they would go about doing that, but the rule was there.
 

 

Given Bellof's car would have been weighed at Monaco, and there was no ballast stop, one assumes that the Tyrrell was not underweight at least at that point during the race...
 

[Collombin]

Given Bellof's car would have been weighed at Monaco, and there was no ballast stop, one assumes that the Tyrrell was not underweight at least at that point during the race...

The scales at Monaco were not working. I agree Bellof was likely legal at the point the race was stopped though.

[Glengavel]

 

 

Yes, but his teammate was Jackie Stewart.  How many of Clark's teammates beat him?  I don't hold it against anyone for not beating those two. 

 

I'm not sure that Irvine is a good comparison.  Eddie had several years of F1 experience while Francois had none.  The video I posted a few days ago is worth the 20 minutes.  I learned a few things I didn't know, like how green Francois was when he joined Tyrrell.  He certainly wasn't in a position to challenge Stewart until later. 

 

In 1973 Cevert was second to Stewart three times. But when Stewart was out of the picture, he was also second three times to either Peterson or Fittipaldi in a four-year-old Lotus; both having about the same amount of F1 experience as Cevert.

 

However, the Tyrrell was built to suit Stewart's driving style and was supposedly a tricky thing to handle, so maybe with a car built to suit him...?

 

And Would Stewart have sung his praises so highly if he wasn't up to scratch?

[Henri Greuter]

As Richard says , buy the book and you may view the events of 1984 from  a different perspective. I know that I did . 

 

But whatever , it is still part of the story. I am reviewing Damien Smith's excellent new book on Benetton and the fact that Crashgate- Singapore 2008 - showed that at least two of the team  were unprincipled rogues makes the story all the  more alluring. Off topic , but how curious  that Nelson Piquet has effectively  been barred from the F1 paddock for a stupid racist comment and yet one of the people involved in Crashgate has now been rehabilitated- words speak louder than actions it seems ...

 

 

I had such with the book about 1994. That made me look different on a number of matters about that year.

 

Sadly the writer of that boook was posting here but since some of his research made MS and Benetton look less suspect and better, at the expence of the opinion that Senna died in his quest against an illegal car was not appreciated by some over here.

 

I have no difficulty with admitting that the penalties for Tyrrell were to some extend disproportional and the rules abuse he comitted being abused to get some matters done and settled much easier at his and his team's expence. No denying that by me.

But that doesn't take away that he put himself in the position to become victim of the FIA's inconsistency with punishments etc.

In a manner that, at least for me, was stepping beyond a thick red line.

 

I prefer remembering the Tyrrells of the 70s when I build F1 cars with Lego and used the lettered one stub stones to put ELF on the cars I built. And wondered how I could built something that at least resembled the P34.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 11 October 2023 - 09:50.

[Rediscoveryx]

The scales at Monaco were not working. I agree Bellof was likely legal at the point the race was stopped though.

Woildn’t it have been the opposite? They started light for the first portion of the race then added ballast at the pit stop (which never came at Monaco) to finish the race on legal weight.

…on the other hand; even if the scales were working at Monaco, the remaining amount of fuel would probably have pushed his car above the weight limit in either case.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 11 October 2023 - 10:30.

[ensign14]

The FIA's case theory was that the Tyrrells started at the right weight, ran underweight as the fuel ran down, and pitted for ballast to put the weight as per normal come the finish.

 

Of course one could use basic maths to prove the case one way or another, which may be why the FIA continually changed the case against Tyrrell.

[Collombin]

I guess there is also a possibility that the car was heavier than normal in Monaco (dropping the late pitstop strategy), as a premature race stoppage was always going to be on the cards.

[Henri Greuter]

I guess there is also a possibility that the car was heavier than normal in Monaco (dropping the late pitstop strategy), as a premature race stoppage was always going to be on the cards.

 

 

I was also thinking about being legal right from the start this time (extra weight compared with previous race starts)  being an option to improve the traction on a wet track

[10kDA]

 

And Would Stewart have sung his praises so highly if he wasn't up to scratch?

I would guess Jackie and Ken discussed what kind of shape the team would be in after Jackie's retirement. Jackie's assessment of Cevert in the role of #1 was probably the most accurate possible, from anyone and everyone.

[FLB]

I would guess Jackie and Ken discussed what kind of shape the team would be in after Jackie's retirement. Jackie's assessment of Cevert in the role of #1 was probably the most accurate possible, from anyone and everyone.

Another thing mentioned in La mort dans mon contrat is that Cevert had just received a personal sponsorship contract from Goodyear. His 1974 salary was going to be split between Tyrrell and the team's sponsors (Ied by Elf, I'd imagine).

 

It's mentioned in the book that the only other driver who had such a contract with Goodyear was Jackie Stewart.

Edited by FLB, 11 October 2023 - 16:19.

[rl1856]

Yes, but his teammate was Jackie Stewart. How many of Clark's teammates beat him? I don't hold it against anyone for not beating those two.

I'm not sure that Irvine is a good comparison. Eddie had several years of F1 experience while Francois had none. The video I posted a few days ago is worth the 20 minutes. I learned a few things I didn't know, like how green Francois was when he joined Tyrrell. He certainly wasn't in a position to challenge Stewart until later.

In 1973 Cevert was second to Stewart three times. But when Stewart was out of the picture, he was also second three times to either Peterson or Fittipaldi in a four-year-old Lotus; both having about the same amount of F1 experience as Cevert.

However, the Tyrrell was built to suit Stewart's driving style and was supposedly a tricky thing to handle, so maybe with a car built to suit him...?

And Would Stewart have sung his praises so highly if he wasn't up to scratch?

I would not be so sure about all that. Age does not always determine the viability of the car. "....a four-year-old Lotus" that won the constructors title in 73 was still a competitive car in 74, when it was a 5yr old car. The Lotus 49 had a front line lifespan of 4 seasons. The McLaren M23 won a championship in 76, 4 seasons after introduction.

Comparing Tyrrell #2 drivers to Lotus #2 drivers is a dead end. The phrase "Lotus #2 treatment" existed for a reason. I don't believe any of Clark's team mates received the same level of support as did Clark. Same can be said of several #2 drivers in 1968, and then Hill in 1969. I think this changed later with Gunnar Nielson and then Ronnie in 78. I don't thing there is much evidence of Tyrrell treating Cevert like a "Lotus #2". I am sure Stewart was favored, but not to an extent that was detrimental to Cevert's performance.

I do believe that Cevert was better than results show. Absent Stewart he would have won several more GP. Many point to 1973, but he finished 2nd to Stewart in the 71 French and German GP. He finished 3rd in the Italian GP, but could have won given how that race played out. And he consistently challenged Fittipaldi in 1972, when other drivers, including Stewart did not.

Scheckter outpacing Cevert is an interesting question. Would the team have further developed the 006 or gone forward with the 007 ? The 2 cars were different, with the 006 being more difficult to drive, but potentially more rewarding, while the 007 was easier to drive with perhaps a lower ceiling. It can be argued that Scheckter would have faced a steeper learning curve had Tyrrell stayed with the 006 or a derivative, . The 007 was more or less tailored to drivers who were still developing.

Would Cevert have been champion in 1974 ? A great what if. I am confident in saying however that his presence may have changed the outcome of the 74 season.

[Glengavel]

 

Scheckter outpacing Cevert is an interesting question.   Would the team have further developed the 006 or gone forward with the 007 ?   The 2 cars were different, with the 006 being more difficult to drive, but potentially more rewarding, while the 007 was easier to drive with perhaps a lower ceiling.   It can be argued that Scheckter would have faced a steeper learning curve had Tyrrell stayed with the 006 or a derivative, .  The 007 was more or less tailored to drivers who were still developing.   

 

Scheckter did drive 006 for three races at the start of 1974. His results were Ret/13/8, then he switched to the 007 and got 5/3/2/1/etc., so that was an improvement. On the other hand, Depailler didn't appear to get the same benefit.

[Michael Ferner]

And he consistently challenged Fittipaldi in 1972, when other drivers, including Stewart did not. 

 

 

I must have missed that.

[LittleChris]

Depailler was 6th, 8th and 4th driving the 006 at the first 3 GP's of 1974 so it can't have been too bad for a newcomer to acclimatise to 

[Richard Jenkins]

I think it's worth quoting Derek Gardner:

“My enthusiasm for this project was so infectious, I was convinced that the car would be produced within two to three years. If Cevert had lived, the P34 probably would have come
out earlier, but as Depailler and Scheckter were struggling with the 006, my priority was to produce a car that was easier to drive to their limit. I considered 007 to be a retrograde step, but it was the car we needed, in order to get Patrick and Jody further up the grid."

My take on it, for what it's worth, is had Cevert lived, considering how close Scheckter was to winning the title at one point, he would've certainly challenged in 1974.

But he strikes me as a little Reutemann esque. Brilliant on his day, but if his mojo wasn't right, he'd be nowhere.
I don't believe he would've reached the same level as Stewart.

[Michael Ferner]

My take is still, if Scheckter couldn't win the title in '74, Cevert didn't stand a chance. Let's face it, his tragic death and deep blue eyes notwithstanding, he was ever only an excellent number two driver, and there's no shame in that. Scheckter may have been inexperienced, but in the few races with McLaren he had already shown that he was made of the stuff that champions are made of. And as for him "struggling" with the old Mk 2 Tyrrell, let's not forget that the team was experimenting with a new torsion bar rear suspension on his car that was ultimately judged a failure. I have no doubt that Scheckter could've made it a winner in his hands, too.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 13 October 2023 - 20:13.

[E1pix]

I agree Scheckter seemed to have more raw speed, but sadly we’ll never know how that would have translated in points by season’s end.

[Dave Ware]

My take is still, if Scheckter couldn't win the title in '74, Cevert didn't stand a chance. Let's face it, his tragic death and deep blue eyes notwithstanding, he was ever only an excellent number two driver, and there's no shame in that. Scheckter may have been inexperienced, but in the few races with McLaren he had already shown that he was made of the stuff that champions are made of. And as for him "struggling" with the old Mk 2 Tyrrell, let's not forget that the team was experimenting with a new torsion bar rear suspension on his car that was ultimately judged a failure. I have no doubt that Scheckter could've made it a winner in his hands, too.

My take is still, if Regazzoni could come so close to winning the title in '74 (a mere 3 points behind Emerson), Cevert had an excellent chance.  Let's face it, Rega was ever only an excellent number two driver, though to drivers like Ickx and Lauda, just as Cevert was number two to the best of that era.  Cevert may have been number two, but in his years with Tyrrell he showed that he was ready to graduate from Stewart's tuterlage and benefit from number one treatment from the team, which I believe would have included having the '74 car designed with his preferences in mind rather than Stewart's. 

 

That, and the fact that Ken Tyrrell and Jackie Stewart have said they believe he would have been world champion, is what convinces me that in '74 he would have had an execellent chance.  Those two would know better than anyone. 

[Michael Ferner]

Good point about Regazzoni, I'll give you that! Goes to show that a "number two driver" with number one treatment can outscore a "championship material" teammate. But I'm not convinced by the Tyrrell and Stewart testimonies, even if I share your high opinion about their judgement. I think their statements are "clouded" by sentiment, and more of a compliment for a deceased and faithful team player/understudy, respectively, than a true appraisal. For all that, we'll never really know... it's all just idle speculation, but isn't that the fun of it? 

[ivandjj]

Best case scenario, Cevert was developing into Hunt like driver and challenged for 74 championship. I suspect he would have tailed off quickly, as such determined, highly strung, not top level talented drivers often did. Scheckter/Cevert partnership would have eventually gone along Lauda/Rega lines. But Cevert's presence at Tyrell as 1974 champ could've pushed the team into better situation financially and technically into the future. Like Cevert 82 champ in Tyrell Renault 😘

[airbox]

I think Cevert would have had a pretty narrow window to win a championship - it's hard to see him and Tyrrell beating Lauda and Ferrari once they had fully got up to speed, but I wonder if he could have been a candidate for the McLaren seat when Emerson left at the end of 1975?

 

With all respect I do wonder if the champion in waiting narrative has developed retrospectively in light of his demise. No doubt he was a promising talent and that Elf would have wanted a French driver in the seat but I'm not sure he showed enough in his career to show he was a future champion on the level of Jackie, Emerson or Niki. 

 

Personally I think had he lived he would have potentially won a few races each year without consistently putting together a championship bid, possibly ending up at Ligier or Renault for a time. 

[B Squared]

And he consistently challenged Fittipaldi in 1972, when other drivers, including Stewart did not.

 

I must have missed that.

From page 102 of the Barrie Gill edited 1973 Motorsport Yearbook which covered the 1972 season. The assessment of Cevert at the conclusion of the '72 season - I haven't included his personal info or background:

 

"Ken Tyrrell gave him his first F1 drive at Zandvoort, 1970 after Johnny Servoz-Gavin had retired. He scored one point at Monza. Came into his own in 1971 with a fine US GP win, two seconds to Stewart, and a third place in the World Championship. He didn't quite live up to his 1971 promise, except on two occasions. In Belgium he scored a fine second placing in Jackie Stewart's absence, and he again proved his liking for both Watkins Glen and dollars for finishing second in the US Grand Prix. He was also second at Le Mans, and drove a very brave race at Clermont-Ferrand after a severe practice crash. Tried his hand at Can-Am racing and won the Donnybrooke round in a privateer McLaren. Will again be campaigning with Jackie Stewart this year."

 

edit: added bold highlight

Edited by B Squared, 16 October 2023 - 14:31.

[Gary C]

This weekend in Austin Pierre Gasly will be wearing a Francois tribute helmet. A nice touch. I have seen online a picture of Gasly and Sir JYS with the helmet. If I could post pictures on here I would, but I can't.

[Glengavel]

This weekend in Austin Pierre Gasly will be wearing a Francois tribute helmet. A nice touch. I have seen online a picture of Gasly and Sir JYS with the helmet. If I could post pictures on here I would, but I can't.

 

Here you go:

 

[Gary C]

Excellent, thank you!

[ReWind]

More here.

 

The view from the back is somewhat spooky.

[barrykm]

More here.

 

The view from the back is somewhat spooky.

 

....heaven forbid!

[JacnGille]

I thought that was what I was seeing!

[john aston]

Shame the Renault's  Alpine's livery doesn't match the Tyrrell's instantly recognisable lines. Who knew that Stevie Wonder had a sideline in graphic design?