110 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

Anthony Davidson has opened his mouth on the current level of safety in motorsport, and I agree with him:

 

He says that the level of safety has improved so much, that there basically exists a lack of respect for safety from the (young) drivers nowadays. They can get away with almost every move they make unscathed and this invites/leads to "borderline reckless-driving".

 

"We don't want to see fans get injured or drivers get injured or killed but the drivers should get punished. On some modern circuits it's pathetic when you see drivers going off the track and nothing happens. The [circuits] are borderline too safe. The problem is, the safer the circuit becomes the more ruthless the driving becomes. So today there is such little respect for each other's safety on the track. They feel like they can bang wheels in a straight line because 'the car is mega-safe - it will take it' is the belief and therefore you get this crazy, almost borderline reckless-driving coming into play. There's got to be compromise with safety and I feel it's just going too far at this stage. As a driver you have to live with the fact you might die one day. Otherwise you might as well just play computer games."

 

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/130823.html

Edited by F.M., 20 October 2013 - 21:43.

[Andrew Hope]

Well, he's not wrong. If the car keeps you safe, then you don't necessarily have to drive safe. And if the car keeps you safe, it will keep your competitors safe, even if you send them off into the paved Sahara that is modern circuit runoffs.

[OvDrone]

...said the vertebrae man...

[SR388]

 

I am glad he took some time away from crashing into corvettes in France to say all this.

There is no such thing as too safe. If there is a concern of rough driving, then the powers at be should harshly penalize for it. I mean race bans and what not. The danger of racing isn't a draw for me. I love the speed, strategy, technology, sportsmanship and friendship that comes with racing.

Edited by SR388, 21 October 2013 - 02:20.

[OvDrone]

I am glad he took some time away from crashing into corvettes in France to say all this.
 

 

This. /thread

[Disgrace]

There is an aspect of truth to Davidson's words. I don't think the increase in safety levels and decrease in respect given on the circuit are mutually exclusive. Watching the antics of some of the current F1 drivers makes me think that real danger is simply not an aspect to the current F1 racers' mindset.

[manmower]

Ideally you would have tracks that punish mistakes but not in a way that diminishes safety, rather just slows competitors down. Now I don't know how easy it is to come up with such designs, but I do have the impression they aren't even trying nowadays, with all those tarmac runoffs that appear to handle just as well as the racing surface.

[chunder27]

When you give the guys who are racing carte blanche to do anything they want and usually run off into a large tarmac apron what do you expect.

 

Ayrton's death was very sad, but let's face it, a lof of this is a result of a major over reaction from that, and Moselys obsession with safety.

 

Some of it is great, but a lot of what Davidson says is true of lots of motorsport, bikes too.

[Risil]

I don't like the way Grand Prix racing has ensured safety by turning what used to be race tracks into squares of asphalt with white lines in. But I want the cars and the barriers to be as safe as possible.

 

Unless Davidson was specifically talking about F1, this is a strange comment given how one of Davidson's fellow competitors died this year after his car crashed into a tree.

Edited by Risil, 20 October 2013 - 22:33.

[Andrew Hope]

In fairness, Simonsen was a freak accident. That was one of those "It's your time to go and nothing's going to stop it" kinds of accidents.

[scheivlak]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't have the vaguest idea what is meant by the second part of the second option of the poll ("Drivers should just be punished in other ways").

[Risil]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't have the vaguest idea what is meant by the second part of the second option of the poll ("Drivers should just be punished in other ways").

 

Someone above mentioned Max Mosley's obsession with safety. Maybe the poll meant his other obsession?

[Andrew Hope]

I did Nazi that coming, Anne Frankly I'm appalled.

[sennafan24]

 

Ayrton's death was very sad, but let's face it, a lof of this is a result of a major over reaction from that, and Moselys obsession with safety.

Lets not forget another driver died that weekend in Roland Ratzenberger, and we almost lost Rubens Barrichello. Something had to be done in 1994, there was no overreaction in my opinion.

 

Say next week a top driver crashed and suffered a serious injury, people would be saying the complete opposite. 

 

Say whatever you will about Senna and Schumi, but both along with the legendary Sid Watkins really did care about driver safety. Watkins deserves all the credit he gets.

Edited by sennafan24, 20 October 2013 - 22:55.

[Spillage]

Whilst I sympathise with the view that the sport is taking precautions it does not need to take with asphalt runoffs and such, I disagree fundamentally with Davidson when he says that 'As a driver you have to live with the fact you might die one day.'  This to me sounds like the kind of ridiculous attitude Jackie Stewart had to face back in the sixties; there is no reason whatsoever that a driver should have to accept the likelihood of their own death. I am particularly surprised by these comments in the wake of the recent deaths of Maria de Villota and Shaun Edwards, the latter less than a week ago, due to injuries sustained in accidents as well as the recent injuries to Franchitti and Wilson in the States. Seems like shockingly poor timing to me.

 

I watched Dan Wheldon die on live television, I'll never forget it and I hope I never have to see its like again. For all my desire to see mistakes punished, the safety of the drivers should never be compromised to any meaningful level.

[TecnoRacing]

In fairness, Simonsen was a freak accident. That was one of those "It's your time to go and nothing's going to stop it" kinds of accidents.

 

I do agree with Anthony...but stupid, obvious things - liking mounting armco flush against a tree (Simonsen) - are easily preventable, and should not be happening...

[Juggles]

Whilst I sympathise with the view that the sport is taking precautions it does not need to take with asphalt runoffs and such, I disagree fundamentally with Davidson when he says that 'As a driver you have to live with the fact you might die one day.'  This to me sounds like the kind of ridiculous attitude Jackie Stewart had to face back in the sixties; there is no reason whatsoever that a driver should have to accept the likelihood of their own death. I am particularly surprised by these comments in the wake of the recent deaths of Maria de Villota and Shaun Edwards, the latter less than a week ago, due to injuries sustained in accidents as well as the recent injuries to Franchitti and Wilson in the States. Seems like shockingly poor timing to me.

 

I watched Dan Wheldon die on live television, I'll never forget it and I hope I never have to see its like again. For all my desire to see mistakes punished, the safety of the drivers should never be compromised to any meaningful level.

 

He isn't asking for a return to forest tracks with no barriers, exploding cars and unprotected spectators. He's saying that now we are at the point where F1 is probably safer than driving a car on a British motorway, maybe we should not be making changes in the name of safety anymore? If those changes neuter the sport then that holds even more true.

 

I remember after his tyre failure in Silverstone Hamilton said Pirelli needed to do something because he was risking his life out there. To be honest, that rang pretty hollow for me. I think that image of death-defying hero would appeal to Hamilton more than most on the grid but it hasn't been true for a long time. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing (they don't need to be "death-defying heroes" for me to be impressed by them or to enjoy the sport) but when they start pointlessly butchering circuits in the name of safety it is just change for the sake of looking busy.

 

F1 cannot be more safe than it is now without having a negative effect on the quality of the product.

[JHSingo]

It sounds wrong to say I agree with this, but...

 

I look at some of the appalling driving going on in junior formulas. There is appalling driving in lots of series, and I'll probably talk about that in a future post. But my big deal at the moment is when I look at these young kids in junior formulas, doing some truly ridiculous things on track. Why? Because the cars are so safe these days, the tracks are so safe, and they've probably all grown up in an era where (unlike older drivers) they haven't experienced the misery of seeing a rival being seriously injured or killed. They think they're invincible, so then the likes of Johnny Cecotto, Sergio Canamasas, or whoever, do incredibly stupid things that a few years ago a driver would never dreamed of doing.

 

The really alarming thing to me is how the organising bodies never take any strong action. They get put to the back of the grid or fined or whatever, but even then it is not enough to make them realise what they did was wrong. So they do it again, and again.

 

How many "close calls" is it going to take before they wake the hell up? Is it going to take (heaven forbid) a driver being killed on a Formula One race weekend before they realise things have to change? I think in some ways people in Formula One, and drivers who race in the support championships, have forgotten about the danger in motorsport. They see it in rallying, in endurance racing, in oval racing or whatever, but they think that just because the last F1 driver to be killed was nearly 20 years ago that it'll never happen again.

 

To make it clear I do not want to see drivers being killed. We've had enough tragedy in just this one year already. But part of me thinks the real underlying problem, particularly in relation to driving standards, is that with these super safe cars/tracks we have today, young drivers (and to be fair, some who are more experience and should know better) think they're invincible. They simply don't believe they can kill themselves, or another competitor. That is when people get complacent, and bad stuff starts to happen...

[KingTiger]

Car design can never have too much safety, but asphalt runoffs and safety cars due to the slightest of rain drops need to go.

[pingu666]

I think there's a diffeeence between safety and driving standards

[Cenotaph]

I think Anthony confused himself there. It's a bit illogical to argue against the current levels of safety by saying that it makes drivers put themselves in unsafe situations... The real issue is driving standards, as pingu pointed out. That's not really related to safety levels, is it? drivers did stupid crap before, infact, that's what got them killed many times.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that Anthony is even right when he claims there is little respect on track today as compared to before, so this whole comment just seems a bit pointless to me. And yes, the timing couldn't be worse...

[teejay]

i dont want to see guys dying or injured but I dont want to see drivers being able to exceed the track limits willingly and purposely without some sort of penalty, other than some dust on their tyres.

 

Its a fine line but one that should err on the side of safety.

[bourbon]

Well that was a mixed bag of words.  The fact that drivers are reckless needs to be addressed, as he suggests, with more stringent penalties.  However, the sport is never "too safe" - not even "borderline too safe" -  and it was very ignorant for him to suggest as much.

Edited by bourbon, 21 October 2013 - 02:55.

[Brother Fox]

Thats a very misleading thread title, he doesnt actually say anything like that.

 

The tracks are becoming almost too safe according to him, as it shifts the menataility of drivers.

[Gorma]

Freak accidents like this can happen any time and we just been luck it hasn't happened.

[rjtart]

I don't think tracks can ever be too safe, but I agree that because of the lack of danger drivers are much more likely to push the limits too far. I'd like to see some real punishments for wild driving. In the old days if you left the track you'd likely damage your car or worse. Today, with all the runoff, you might lose only fractions of a second, maybe even gain time. What if when a car leaves the confines of the designated track surface, the driver would have serve a significant time penalty- strictly enforced. If a driver  forces another off the track, a time penalty for that as well (this is sometimes done now, but not consistently). If you knew an ill-advised banzai move could result in losing several track positions you might think twice.

[muramasa]

Recently in junior formulas those who're crashing alot and hot blooded and dangerous tend to have strong financial backers. In junior categories those with money can afford to crash and break the car therefore can take more risks to go faster and forward than others, while those without money are required to drive really carefully. It's been like that for long time but for the past few years it's gotten alot worse. IMO it's those type of drivers and the circumstance that are lowering the level of driving manner in terms of safety, which then is causing sort of moral hazard widely now.

 

Drivers like Cecotto is simply shocking. That they cannot take any strict action against him describes the current situation of motorsport, esp junior formula, very well. Money is important but sth is completely wrong when money exceeds the moral and the value of life. Even in F1 we have drivers like Maldo and Alg who arent afraid to swerve and crash into competitors on purpose. Well drivers like Gro, Perez and Guti were all quite aggressive and reckless since GP2 years but I can still defend them, but drivers like Cecotto is just on totally another dimension, he should be banned, seriously.

[Andrew Hope]

That's a really good point I hadn't thought of. Someone like Cecotto who brings a billion dollars everywhere he goes can afford to drive the way he does. He could afford for everyone to drive the way he does.

[andrewr]

I did Nazi that coming, Anne Frankly I'm appalled.

 

Made me laugh out loud and embarrass myself.

[Ferrari2183]

I agree with Davidson. The sport has become too neutered, so much so that I'm slowly losing interest... Tracks are too wide and the grip to power ratio is too much in the favour of grip.

 

Problem is I don't see this getting better with fuel limitations and turbo engines.

[seahawk]

That's a really good point I hadn't thought of. Someone like Cecotto who brings a billion dollars everywhere he goes can afford to drive the way he does. He could afford for everyone to drive the way he does.

 

But then the cars are not to safe, the sanctions against him are too weak. Nobody can say that he would drive differently if the cars were less safe.

 

And while I agree that the large overruns on some tracks are boring, I always wondered why we can not have small styrofoam barriers installed, with the simple rule, that if you break those you get a drive through penalty.

[SenorSjon]

I see tracks like Spa wasted due to the tarmac runoffs. It used to be a green and lush environment with race cars powering through it. Now it almost has airplane landing strips with all the tarmac.

[dau]

In fairness, Simonsen was a freak accident. That was one of those "It's your time to go and nothing's going to stop it" kinds of accidents.

How was that a freak accident? He wasn't hit by a tyre in the face, he didn't crash into a truck, he wasn't struck by lightning. He made a mistake, lost control of the car and hit the barriers. That's like the most common type of motorsport accidents. The only freak part was the tree standing where it did, so much for the 'too safe racing circuits'. His death was absolutely avoidable.

[Shiroo]

new tracks are like playground. The runoffs that aren't gravels and are like 50m wide. Oh god damn c'mon. They should use brain not do "Banzai Moves" that if they won't work, they will simply lose 5-10sec and rejoin the track. They should instead run into the god damn gravel or a wall and that should be the end of the race for him.

So I agree with Ant

[TimRTC]

Question - were driving standards in junior formulae races better in the 'good old days'?

 

Obviously you can't watch an FIA F3 race today without some sort of high speed incident in the opening laps, but a few years ago unless you were at the circuit you simply couldn't watch F3 races, certainly not on-demand. This, particularly combined with some Youtube users obsessive crash compilation editing, has given the impression that driving standards are unusually poor in these series.

[doc83]

Well that was a mixed bag of words.  The fact that drivers are reckless needs to be addressed, as he suggests, with more stringent penalties.  However, the sport is never "too safe" - not even "borderline too safe" -  and it was very ignorant for him to suggest as much.

 

If the sport is too safe what will be the difference between real racing and advanced computer games (simulators) . G-load?

 

We might as well start watching online computer series. Laser scanned tracks, advanced graphics, cockpits and wheels similar to actual ones.  Drivers already look like computer geeks not men.  This is not going in the good direction.

[PayasYouRace]

But then the cars are not to safe, the sanctions against him are too weak. Nobody can say that he would drive differently if the cars were less safe.

 

And while I agree that the large overruns on some tracks are boring, I always wondered why we can not have small styrofoam barriers installed, with the simple rule, that if you break those you get a drive through penalty.

 

That's a good idea. They use those foam barriers for advertising at many circuits. They could line the edge of the track where a tarmac run-off exists. If you break one you get a penalty. They'd provide a "wall" which would give the drivers more of a visual reference (possibly even making some fast corners more "scary" looking, and add loads of advertising space for sponsors.

[Gorma]

If the sport is too safe what will be the difference between real racing and advanced computer games (simulators) . G-load?

 

We might as well start watching online computer series. Laser scanned tracks, advanced graphics, cockpits and wheels similar to actual ones.  Drivers already look like computer geeks not men.  This is not going in the good direction.

If you really think that there is no diffrence then you should start following online racing and stop with F1.

[Nemo1965]

Good idea, Seahawk and Payas,

 

I don't know if someone already said this, but what if you replace tarmac runoff areas with gravelpits? Yes, the risk of a car flipping over is bigger, but perhaps with some innovative materials you could prevent that. In that way, people overshooting 'on purpose/because of stupidity' (look at Ricciardo's overtaking move at 130 r) will suffer not death or injury but a forced drive through the pitlane...

 

Another idea would be: every excursion off track - even if it seems harmless - you are forced a drive through. No discussions, no penalties... just four wheels off the track: drive through.

[PNSD]

Isn't this what Jacques has previously said? I agree. Drivers have little respect for one another these days. In F1 that is perfectly clear. We have Jenson, Kimi,, Mark, Alonso and IMO Lewis who all seem to race with a clear respect for each other. Lewis has had incidents but the guy is fair, and safe. Webber and Alonso are the shear definition of being on the limit, but respectful and safe! And Kimi and Jenson simply know when enough is enough, they know how much room to give, and more importantly they know who they can give who and who to simply let through.

 

That isn't the case in some motorsports I watch. Indy car for example. I note Simon Pagenaud, Bourdais, Wilson, Kanaan, and Dario as the only drivers who can race wheel to wheel safely. The rest don't.

 

Nascar is the same. How many drivers actually race properly? Either Busch brother? No. Carl Edwards? Hell no!! JJ? Yes! Kasey Kahne? IMO yes. There's not many though.

 

In Sport's cars I've never really witnessed poor form. The odd mistake here and there, but if McNish can make a mistake then anyone can!!

[Muppetmad]

Another idea would be: every excursion off track - even if it seems harmless - you are forced a drive through. No discussions, no penalties... just four wheels off the track: drive through.

That'd be a difficult one to enforce fairly; for example, what if you're pushed off the track by someone else? What if you use the run off area to avoid a collision? And if you were to make those exceptions, you'd have all the ambiguities which come with it (like "What counts as being pushed off the track?") and the claims that because of that it's unfair.

[Jackmancer]

I won't mourn of Davidson ever gets an accident.

His comments are just stupid - he should tell it to John Surtees or to the daughter and wife of Allan Simonsen.

[redreni]

This comment of Davidson's is in danger of encouraging me to mount my track limits hobby horse. Broadly, I don't think it's realistic to alter the tracks so they're not susceptible to abuse of track limits, so I think enforcement must improve. But there will always be judgement calls to be made because drivers are allowed to leave the track if they have a "justifiable reason" like avoiding an accident.

 

Unfortunately it's a possibly unwelcome element of subjectivity that has been introduced to our sport as a result of changes to circuit design, but it's better to have that than to go back to the inferior safety standards we used to have. Many other sports have always had a strong element of subjectivity in the way the rules have to be interpreted - in football there are constant debates about what constitutes deliberate hand ball, what constitutes obstruction, what constitutes a foul as opposed to a fair tackle etc and, although it creates controversey, it doesn't stop the best teams winning so it's not a disaster.

 

I don't think removing the tarmac runoffs is any solution because, in many places, the reason the tarmac was put in in the first place is that the previous configuration was deemed unsafe, and this makes it politically very difficult to reverse the track safety work for sporting reasons. If a bad accident were to occur on a corner that had been deliberately made less safe than it used to be for sporting reasons, the FIA and the track owners would be asked a lot of questions which they really wouldn't want to have to answer.

 

The issue Davidson raises about driver behaviour changing as a result of the safer circuits is an important one. This was clearly illustrated at Suzuka by the Sutil/Ricciardo incident at 130R. Ricciardo seemed to feel that, because he had is nose ahead going into 130R, it shouldn't be considered important that he missed his turn-in point and went off the circuit on the exit. If he had done that 12 years ago there would have been a massive accident. You have to assume that he had a justifiable reason for going off track, namely that he made an error, so the question becomes "did he gain an advantage". And this is where you have to consider whether knowing that he had the option of using the run-off if he didn't make the corner gave him the advantage of being able to make a move around the outside of a rival at what used to be just about the most fearsome corner in F1? If it was grass and gravel on the outside of 130R, would Ricciardo have turned in earlier, would he have had a massive accident, or would he have never attempted to pass Sutil in that particular place in the first instance? And this takes us back to my original point about needing very strong enforcement of track limits, with off-track excursions being punished routinely, with only limited and well defined exceptions.

Edited by redreni, 21 October 2013 - 11:02.

[KateLM]

The matter of the fact is, there's a lot of people happy to complain about things being too safe until days like Kubica's Canada 2007 accident and Webber's at Valencia 2010. Because whatever the price was for those drivers only to receive minor injuries, I can't believe that most believe it wasn't worth it - and the latter crash would likely have been a fair bit uglier without the run-off.

 

What Davidson is talking about are, in my eyes, two separate issues. Drivers would be less aggressive with each other or less liberal with the track limits if there were harsher and more consistent punishments for doing so down through the categories. But serious injury (or the risk of it) is not a punishment, and I find it rather troubling that anyone could equate it to one.

 

There's been a chilling number of serious or fatal accidents in recent years that haven't been down to reckless driving at all. Some have been minor misjudgments that would only have small consequences at a slightly different angle. Others have been plain freakish circumstances that few could do anything to prevent. And because of that the sport should never, within reason, be considered "too" safe.

[doc83]

If you really think that there is no diffrence then you should start following online racing and stop with F1.

 

Future tense.

 

But actually I do a lot of racing both in real life (gokarts, amateur  rallies) and online.  And you know what? F1 has no thrill anymore. Last few races I switched off after couple of laps and went online to race. Way more fun and excitement.

 

P.s  When 15-20 years ago I watched races I thought “ These guys are amazing and extremely brave. I would kill myself on the first corner”.  I was so impressed. Now I just think they have good skill and reaction times. Nothing more, sadly.

[pacificquay]

To anyone who has passed an opinion here, based on the opening post, please read the full article about Davidson's views to see them in actual context.

 

It's here.

 

http://www.theguardi...or-sport-safety

[SenorSjon]

Canada is one of the few tracks with little runoffs due to lack of space. I do feel the chicane before the wall of champions is to forgiving for corner cutting these days. It used to be gravel to prevent drivers gaining an advantage. The place were Kubica crashed is unaltered.

 

Valencia crash had nothing to do with the track. That could happen anywhere with roughly the same result.

 

I no longer consider a F1 driver brave for going flatout through Eau Rouge. It has runoff everywhere and with the ridiculous grip/power ratio, it is almost flat out, even with full fuel tanks.

 

Ricciardo was a just penalty. You wouldn't think about doing such a move in 130R unless suicidal. On a slightly similar note, I thought the Grosjean penalty in Hungary was just. I watched some old footage and in the past, Grosjean could have never made that move stick.

[doc83]

The matter of the fact is, there's a lot of people happy to complain about things being too safe until days like Kubica's Canada 2007 accident and Webber's at Valencia 2010. Because whatever the price was for those drivers only to receive minor injuries, I can't believe that most believe it wasn't worth it - and the latter crash would likely have been a fair bit uglier without the run-off.

 

What Davidson is talking about are, in my eyes, two separate issues. Drivers would be less aggressive with each other or less liberal with the track limits if there were harsher and more consistent punishments for doing so down through the categories. But serious injury (or the risk of it) is not a punishment, and I find it rather troubling that anyone could equate it to one.

 

There's been a chilling number of serious or fatal accidents in recent years that haven't been down to reckless driving at all. Some have been minor misjudgments that would only have small consequences at a slightly different angle. Others have been plain freakish circumstances that few could do anything to prevent. And because of that the sport should never, within reason, be considered "too" safe.

 

oh please...

Look at boxing and mixed martial arts. MMA becomes so popular because it’s  way more cruel. Everyone is just waiting for a hard knockout.

All this political correctness is really becoming boring.  There are sports that are 100% safe and sports where injuries are part of the show and create our respect for the gladiators that take part.

[Mrluke]

Agree with the general sentiment in the thread.

 

3 Issues really:

 

- Reckless driving

- Track limits / run off
- Genuine chance of death

 

I think we are all agreed that we dont want to see drivers dying or being seriously injured. Except from those who state that if you dont have a chance of dying every day at work then you might as well play a computer game  would love to see what their day job is!

 

Reckless driving I see as an enforcement issue really, if the FIA dont punish it then it will continue its that simple.

 

Track limits is a theme close to everybodies heart, how can we discourage drivers from exceeding the track limits without causing a safety issue? We cant really go back to a solution that has been replaced on safety grounds such as grass and gravel.

 

I dont think a foam wall on he white line is a great idea, imagine a couple of cars go off on a straight and decimate 20 or 30m of foam wall which is then spread all over the track..nightmare. Safety car would be out forever.

 

How about a very grippy / abrasive surface that takes a couple of laps life out of the tyres? That would discourage regular excursions but allow avoiding action.

 

The other problem is we want to encourage drivers to risk a move in unusual places rather than limit them to DRS passes.

[03011969]

Racing can not ever be "too safe", unless you see some benefit to drivers being injured or killed.

 

However, there can be more or less boring solutions to safey issues. Errors being 'punished' by cars being damaged or time lost seems fair. An acre of tarmac is often rather boring. What about some Tec-Pro barriers just off the track but with tarmac behind. Drivers won't want to hit the barriers, but they won't get injured if they do.

 

So long as driver safey is not compromised, I do believe there is a way of keeping the racing interested,

Edited by 03011969, 21 October 2013 - 11:56.