360 replies to this topic

[George Costanza]

To be honest, Fred is right. We currently look at Ayrton Senna with high regard as one of the greatest if not the greatest driver. We currently look at Michael Schumacher's Ferrari days with high regard because he struggled a bit to win the title, with time, that is a great achievement. Same goes for Mika Hakkinen who beat Michael in a striaght fight. 

 

Maybe its Nostalgia.

[fabr68]

Bringing Monza 2008 has everything to do with what Alonso is saying. A hint for you; "He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1.".

So Vettel winning one race in a Toro Rosso puts him at the same leyendary level as Fangio? who won championships in practically every team he drove for

Or the same leyendary level as Prost, who won championships while having Lauda and Senna as teammates?

Edited by fabr68, 23 November 2013 - 15:44.

[SpamJet]

France 1991, he got a podium with his Ferrari, which was really off-pace that year in comparison to the McLaren and Williams. There will be a better example, someone else will have.

 

People discredit the Toro Rosso win, for various reasons like RB continuing to develop the car in late 2008, and neglecting its main car to work on 2009 regulations. The Toro Rosso was set up very well this weekend, Seb's teammate qualified high.

 

But still, given Seb's age and the conditions, it was a beauty of a drive for any standard. 

 

So driving in the rain is still all about the car and not driver skill?

What a bout 2009 then, the brawn was the best car and vettel 1 or was it 2 races, does that pass the alonso legend test? 

Kimi won in a shitbox ferrari that year as well, does that make him a great?

[krea]

Check my post above.

 

And my timeline is just for the latter stages of 2008, generally they were behind BMW and Toyota. Where did I say Vettel did not perform well in 2008, or even hinted I thought that.

 

The difference is that Vettel is the guy with the 35 points while Bourdais only have 4 points. Cherry picking some pointless qualifyings doesn't change the fact.

[sennafan24]

So driving in the rain is still all about the car and not driver skill?

Read what I wrote on the other page please.

[sennafan24]

The difference is that Vettel is the guy with the 35 points while Bourdais only have 4 points. Cherry picking some pointless qualifyings doesn't change the fact.

I said that Seb was the better driver, the points gap does not tell the full picture there though.

 

Lets not turn this into a circular, I am not discrediting Seb's win at Monza.

[IamFasterthanU]

He showed how good he was in the Toro Rosso but back then nobody cared and now they don't remember it.

Fernando himself said in 2008 that he believed that Vettel was better than Hamilton because he had started in poor cars and learned the hard way, but now he says the contrary...

 

Toro Rosso was a much better car back then (much better than Red Bull). Bourdais qualified 3rd or 4th in that particular race..but stalled at the start people tend forget that. Hamilton proved himself in poor cars and Fernando does say he respects him. And Fernando won in that 2008 Renault car too (leaving aside Singapore). Yes, you need a good car to win a WDC but the point is in a competitive season cars do not dominate so badly in every race. In 2006 I'd say Ferrari and Renault were more or less equal cars. 

 

People have this opinion about Vettel because the Red Bull is good at each and every track. Good enough to fight for wins where as for others this just hasn't been the case for most of the races. They are good enough to win some (just marginally better than others) and are no hopers on other tracks where 2nd or 3rd is the max possible result. In all the seasons 2010-2013 Webber's pace in clean air is indicative of how good the car is..he botches up the starts day in and day out but other than that, it is seldom the case that he is falling back during a race (except a KERS issue maybe). 

 

Fernando is Not saying that Vettel is not good enough but saying he is still skeptical about his abilities since the car is damn good and I agree with his assessment as many others do. Don't understand this hullabaloo.

[mardmarium]

Interesting. 

 

This is the perfect moment to ask the following question, Do you think Alonso thinks he could have won the WDC several times (4 times for example) during these years if he were driving a Red Bull? Please, notice that I am not asking, Do you think Alonso could have won…? 

 

There is something that has been evident to me (Hamilton has been quite vocal in that sense), some drivers seem to think they could have done what Vettel has done (or something quite similar) if they had had the tools for doing so. Are they right? I really don´t know, there is no basis on facts in order to know, I only can say, something similar, why not? As I've said, no basis on facts.

 

On the other hand, they have said that they think Vettel is a great driver and a deserved champion. 

 

Summarizing, I don´t think Alonso is playing mind games, or being emotional, or being delusional (why? simply because he doesn´t say what some forumers want him to say?) I think he is saying exactly what he thinks and frankly, after reading the article, his words make sense, even more coming from the driver point of view. 

 

I like when it´s not hard to deduce what they think, from outside. Most part of the time there is no way to know what they really think and everything is based on speculations. 

[rockdude101]

I would presume he considers the TR at Monza 2008 to be the best in the field, a lot of others also think that.

 

Don't put words in my mouth.

 

 

 

And Vettel does even have a win in a TR. A car that was not a winner car in any way.

 

Your point?

 

A winner in any way? It was designed by Newey! Point invalid.

Are you trying to say that the STR3 was as bad as the A18?

 

The A18 (Arrows) had 6 retirements out of 17 starts, and out of the 11 finishes, only 2 resulted in points. The only podium finish, 2nd - came from 3rd on the grid, while teammate qualified 19th, two seconds slower and didn't finish the race.

In comparison:

The STR3 (Toro Rosso) had 2 retirements out of 13 starts and out of the 11 finishes, 9 resulted in points The only podium finish,1st came from pole position, while teammate qualified 4th, 0.900 slower and finished 18th.

 

 

 

edit:

 

 

 

Interesting. 

 

This is the perfect moment to ask the following question, Do you think Alonso thinks he could have won the WDC several times (4 times for example) during these years if he were driving a Red Bull?

 

Yes. Lewis & Kimi definitely as well.

Edited by rockdude101, 23 November 2013 - 16:08.

[Wanderer]

 

Yes. Lewis & Kimi definitely as well.

 

Do you mean that Alonso thinks that Kimi and Lewis too could have won all 4 years, or do you mean Kimi and Lewis also think they could have won all 4 years?

[kryziuotis]

While it is quite clear that RBR has been the car to have for the past couple of years, people conveniently forget all about MW.

Nobody forgets Webber. In fact those, who claim that without Vettel Red Bull wouldn't have won any championships, are wrong. If you want to investigate hypothetical scenario, what would have happened without Vettel, you can't simply remove Vettel's points from the final championship table. You have to go race by race and recalculate all the results. Also you can't remove second RedBull completely, because someone would still be driving it and taking points of the opposition. So if we want to get the most accurate picture, we have to place second RedBull one place below Webber in the races where he finished in front, and recalculate all the results.

 

This is what we get:

2010: 1. Webber (278 points) 2. Alonso (256 points)

2011: 1. Webber (309 points) 2. Button (307 points) 3. Alonso (282 points)

2012: 1. Alonso (300 points) ?. Webber (210 points)

2013: 1. Alonso (261 points) ?. Webber (227 points)

 

So without Vettel, Webber would have won 2 championships.

[SYGRE]

Vettel has only beaten Mark Webber to those titles,nothing great about that.

[Absulute]

Every driver who wins the title owes it to the car.

Absolutely.

 

But how many get that luxury for 4 straight seasons?

[F1Champion]

Just remember that in that article it refers to the fact that Alonso could very easily had 4 and Vettel only 2 WDC. At that stage would Vettel still be considered as he is now as one of the greatest ever?

 

Alonso and Hamilton have never had a car this dominant. I kinda agree that Vettel's legacy is dependent on how he deals with a poor car.

[Wanderer]

So if we want to get the most accurate picture, we have to place second RedBull one place below Webber in the races where he finished in front, and recalculate all the results.

 

Really? The team mate would have been exactly one place behind him all the time? Not once in front of Webber or behind Button in let's say 2011? Because if he was, that 2011 championship would have been gone too even after your theory. 

Edited by Wanderer, 23 November 2013 - 16:35.

[rockdude101]

Do you mean that Alonso thinks that Kimi and Lewis too could have won all 4 years, or do you mean Kimi and Lewis also think they could have won all 4 years?

 

 

No, I think Alonso thinks he could won all 4 years if given those Newey cars. I think Alonso, Lewis & Kimi could of won all 4 years if given those Newey cars. Others like Webber, Massa, Rosberg - wouldn't win all 4 years, perhaps 1 or 2 but not all 4.

[kryziuotis]

Really? The team mate would have been exactly one place behind him all the time? Not once in front of Webber or behind Button in let's say 2011? Because if he was, that 2011 championship would have been gone too even after your theory. 

Of course this hypothetical No. 2 driver would have finished in front of Webber in some races. But Webber would have finished higher than his real results, had he been clear No. 1 driver at RedBull, because sometimes he got inferior strategy. So I would say that real results would have been even more in Webber's favor than those calculations show.

[Wanderer]

No, I think Alonso thinks he could won all 4 years if given those Newey cars. I think Alonso, Lewis & Kimi could of won all 4 years if given those Newey cars. Others like Webber, Massa, Rosberg - wouldn't win all 4 years, perhaps 1 or 2 but not all 4.

 

I'm usually not that pedantic but this is exactly what he even explicitly pointed out he was not asking, hence my question in my previous post.

 

On your point, I think it's possible that Alonso could have won 4 times but that's not a given. Concerning Lewis and Kimi, I don't think they would have won all 4 years. Especially Lewis was too inconsistent and had too many problems with the tyres. 

[Gorma]

Nobody forgets Webber. In fact those, who claim that without Vettel Red Bull wouldn't have won any championships, are wrong. If you want to investigate hypothetical scenario, what would have happened without Vettel, you can't simply remove Vettel's points from the final championship table. You have to go race by race and recalculate all the results. Also you can't remove second RedBull completely, because someone would still be driving it and taking points of the opposition. So if we want to get the most accurate picture, we have to place second RedBull one place below Webber in the races where he finished in front, and recalculate all the results.

This is what we get:
2010: 1. Webber (278 points) 2. Alonso (256 points)
2011: 1. Webber (309 points) 2. Button (307 points) 3. Alonso (282 points)
2012: 1. Alonso (300 points) ?. Webber (210 points)
2013: 1. Alonso (261 points) ?. Webber (227 points)

So without Vettel, Webber would have won 2 championships.

It really does not work that way either.

[Ferrari2183]

Alonso is right. Agree with him completely...

Not to say that Vettel ain't good but he is largely untested in average machinery.

[rockdude101]

I'm usually not that pedantic but this is exactly what he even explicitly pointed out he was not asking, hence my question in my previous post.

 

On your point, I think it's possible that Alonso could have won 4 times but that's not a given. Concerning Lewis and Kimi, I don't think they would have won all 4 years. Especially Lewis was too inconsistent and had too many problems with the tyres. 

 

Oh I agree, Lewis's wins would of been tighter, more contested but with Newey's cars...still won all 4 in my opinion.

[Wanderer]

Oh I agree, Lewis's wins would of been tighter, more contested but with Newey's cars...still won all 4 in my opinion.

 

Really? Just look at 2011. I think it's more likely that Vettel would have won in that 2012 McLaren or Ferrari.

 

I'll let it rest here since we're going more and more off topic. 

Edited by Wanderer, 23 November 2013 - 17:19.

[pizzalover]

Lol!

 

Alonso didn't have to wait for time. There was a spare seat in the RB for 2014 he could of been sitting in.

[IamFasterthanU]

Really? Just look at 2011. I think it's more likely that Vettel would have won in that 2012 McLaren or Ferrari.

 

I'll let it rest here since we're going more and more off topic.  

 

2012 Ferrari & McLaren were atrocious in number of races and Red Bull was as I said before good enough to fight for a podium (atleast) in all the races and near the end of the season it was McLaren vs Red Bull for victories with Ferrari fighting for podium but clearly slower than atleast one of the cars. It was max possible any driver could've done. On the other hand on similar lines (If you want to just want to speculate based on your liking of a driver) it can be said that may be Alonso would've won it convincingly or may be Massa would've been champ in that Red Bull 

[Lulabaloo]

So Vettel winning one race in a Toro Rosso puts him at the same leyendary level as Fangio? who won championships in practically every team he drove for

Or the same leyendary level as Prost, who won championships while having Lauda and Senna as teammates?

 

We are not discussing my criteria for greatness but Alonso's.

[bourbon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/25035783


"Time will tell us," he says. "There are many years [to go in his career].

"He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now.

"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."



So Alonso's back to back titles had nothing to do with Michelin or Mercedes unreliability or the Mass Damper or simply having one of the best cars in a very well-run team?

The fact that Alonso has failed to win WDC's when he has "a car like the others" doesn't diminish his titles, so why should it be the case for Seb?

Mods:If this article is already being discussed elswhere, feel free to merge.

 

Another end of the season rant from Alonso.  What a surprise.

 

What would be impressive, is a sporting Alonso congratulating his competitors at season's end.

Edited by bourbon, 23 November 2013 - 18:08.

[DaddyCool]

Alonso is right. Agree with him completely...

Not to say that Vettel ain't good but he is largely untested in average machinery.

 

Yeah it would be interesting to see what he could do with, say, a Toro Rosso or something. I doubt he would be getting wins or even some good point-scoring places.

[fabr68]

We are not discussing my criteria for greatness but Alonso's.

 

And I fully agree with Alonso's answer to the question.   Vettel does not have the same level of legendary greatness as Fangio, Prost or MS yet.

Edited by fabr68, 23 November 2013 - 18:15.

[BenettonB192]

Alonso is right. Just like the lost titles at McLaren and Ferrari are threatening to hurt his legacy same could happen to Seb if he finds himself in the Alonso situation for the rest of his career.

[jjcale]

Am not a fan .... but he looked pretty damn great today!

Edited by jjcale, 23 November 2013 - 18:28.

[seahawk]

I think we should consider that Alonso also said that he had the best cars in 2005/6 and if you read the whole interview he is not talking about winning in a M´Marrussia or something. He talks about being in the WDC fight even if you are just driving a car that is not the best. Imho asll great drivers have shown to be able to do it. I see nothing wrong with that. The difference between good and great is exactly that what Alonso pointed out. A great driver will be more likely to be in the WDC hunt even when driving a worse car than the good driver. And I also think it must be different if you have won one or more WDCs and suddenly have to give 110% to make a podium when you are used to fight for the win every race, compared to being in a junior team and hunting your first win, points or general recognition in F1.

 

I also see nothing disrespectful in his comments. He does not say Vettel does not have it, he just say he has to prove that quality when the time comes.

[study]

Really? Just look at 2011. I think it's more likely that Vettel would have won in that 2012 McLaren or Ferrari.

 

I'll let it rest here since we're going more and more off topic. 

 

Lewis would have won in the 2012 McLaren, the problem wasn't with Lewis it was with the team 

 

So unless Vettel did he's own pitstops then there wouldn't have being much difference.

Edited by study, 23 November 2013 - 18:45.

[RealRacing]

Of course it is difficult to say if Vettel already belongs among the names mentioned. However, I think a lot of fans and drivers, Alonso included, are a bit scared that he is actually as good as his RBR results have hinted at. Sure, everybody is mentioning the car but in the back of their minds they know there's a real possibility that the guy is really that good, a sort of freak of the new generation. To many he has already been proving this in the last seasons by convincingly beating his teammate, who, mostly, has not even presented a close fight, let's say a-la McLaren 1988, 1989, but also making less mistakes and qualifying and winning by amazing margins.

 

Of course the other side of the coin, in this case regarding Alonso, would be to ask, "how good or bad has the Ferrari really been". I mean, Alonso has done a very consistent and constant PR job of downplaying the car, more so than probably any other driver on the grid for the past 4 seasons. Some could argue that he did not deliver when it mattered in 2010 and 2012, but then the reputation that he had given the car was already cemented in the eyes of fans and F1 stakeholders wasn't it? If Alonso is the best current driver is an open debate. However, what I think is beyond any doubt is his defensive stance anytime he hasn't been winning, be it at the end of the 2006 season, throughout 2007 and then again from 2010-13. To me that throws a question mark both at his sincerity and his real driving ability as well. The nature of his character though is crystal clear.  

[Fastcake]

Alonso is just stating the obvious. How can you really assess someone in the middle of their career compared to the past champions?

[V3TT3L]

Alonso is just ******** bcs he chose to drop the Renault horse before it was dead.

Fred should have accumulated more WDCs - take the most of it - with that platform before jumping ships.

The phantom of remorse is haunting him bcs he would get his million$ one way or another.

 

Vettel won't leave RedBull so soon, as much as Alonso, the master mind scrambler, tries to play mind games with him.

The 'you need to win a WDC with another team to be a greatest great' bait won't work with Vettel 

 

So no vacant seat for Alonso to get in, sorry.

[velgajski1]

I think we should consider that Alonso also said that he had the best cars in 2005/6 and if you read the whole interview he is not talking about winning in a M´Marrussia or something. He talks about being in the WDC fight even if you are just driving a car that is not the best. Imho asll great drivers have shown to be able to do it. I see nothing wrong with that. The difference between good and great is exactly that what Alonso pointed out. A great driver will be more likely to be in the WDC hunt even when driving a worse car than the good driver. And I also think it must be different if you have won one or more WDCs and suddenly have to give 110% to make a podium when you are used to fight for the win every race, compared to being in a junior team and hunting your first win, points or general recognition in F1.

 

I also see nothing disrespectful in his comments. He does not say Vettel does not have it, he just say he has to prove that quality when the time comes.

 

So what, he can't beat Vettel in number of titles then suddenly criteria for being great changes. Apparently if you lose enough titles in top (but not dominant) machinery you will be considered great. If you win ALL titles in dominant  machinery you will be considered untested.

Edited by velgajski1, 23 November 2013 - 18:55.

[PoleMan]

 

 

Comments pretty much in line with what was expected. Vettel has NOT had a year like Senna '93 or Alonso '12.

 

It's not his fault. He hasn't yet had the opportunity.  His cars have just been too good in comparison to the McLaren or Ferrari those other world champions drove in those years. How Senna and Alonso FOUGHT IN INFERIOR EQUIPMENT is what sent their already high stock soaring!  

 

Vettel will almost certainly get the chance to do the same at Red Bull or another team when they "get it wrong" and I expect he will grab that opportunity with both hands. But if he doesn't, or gets beaten or run close by Ricciardo, some of the shine on him might dull a bit, and the question of whether it was more car or driver would seem to be answered. Can't wait until it happens and we can see him fight back knowing his car will only be good for 5th...and he scores a podium! 

 

But too many of you can't understand or respect that POV. Hurling childish insults at Alonso and throwing a tantrum along with your toys out the play pen is how you entertain yourselves, so I apologize for interrupting you. 

[Skinnyguy]

Doubting about Vettel´s quality after 2009 was an obvious thing to do. After 2010 it was still understandable. After 2011 it was a dodgy thing to do. After 2012 it was an exercise of impotence. Doing it right now can only be one thing: straight stupidity.

 

You´ve had the guy being brilliant for ages. Forget about the material he enjoyed, just look at the level of performance he delivered again and again and again. Be it scoring consistently and winning in a midfield TR (2008 was much more than a fluke win), keeping himself in the fight in a good car against the Brawns, winning tight championships, or demolishing the field when car is dominant. All this time he´s been brilliant, and overall better than anyone else out there.

 

THAT is what makes him a legend, not only his numbers. Just like Alonso is now a legend even with "only" 2 WDC, because he´s been brilliant for ages almost 24/7. That´s what makes him a legend, and that´s the same that already made Vettel an even bigger legend.

[st99]

Toro Rosso was a much better car back then (much better than Red Bull). Bourdais qualified 3rd or 4th in that particular race..but stalled at the start people tend forget that. Hamilton proved himself in poor cars and Fernando does say he respects him. And Fernando won in that 2008 Renault car too (leaving aside Singapore). Yes, you need a good car to win a WDC but the point is in a competitive season cars do not dominate so badly in every race. In 2006 I'd say Ferrari and Renault were more or less equal cars. 

 

People have this opinion about Vettel because the Red Bull is good at each and every track. Good enough to fight for wins where as for others this just hasn't been the case for most of the races. They are good enough to win some (just marginally better than others) and are no hopers on other tracks where 2nd or 3rd is the max possible result. In all the seasons 2010-2013 Webber's pace in clean air is indicative of how good the car is..he botches up the starts day in and day out but other than that, it is seldom the case that he is falling back during a race (except a KERS issue maybe). 

 

Fernando is Not saying that Vettel is not good enough but saying he is still skeptical about his abilities since the car is damn good and I agree with his assessment as many others do. Don't understand this hullaba

 

Maybe the Toro Rosso was better than now and the RB then but there were still at least three teams with better cars: McLaren, Ferrari and BMW and I'm not forgetting Bourdais was 4th in qualy (1s behind Vettel but still). I'm not only talking about Monza, he was 4th or 5th a lot of times that year, even in Japan in 2007 he was en route for a podium and in China he was 4th just behind the Ferraris and the McLaren in a car that no one had scored points with until then... and he was 20. So, yes, I think he would be great with lesser machinery just as I think he's great with good machinery.

 

I just don't understand Fernando, he doesn' need to keep saying this. He's also a great driver, he doesn't need to diminish his rivals.

[Skinnyguy]

 Vettel has NOT had a year like Senna '93 or Alonso '12.

 

 

Erm, sorry to burst your bubble but Vettel was leading the championship early on when Ferrari was better. He performed at maximum level then, and he keeps doing it now with a dominant car.

 

Judge his performances down to what HE does, and you´ll realize that his 2013 is an even more impressive than Alonso´s 2012. As I said somewhere else, this season from Vettel is the best I´ve seen from any driver since I´m a fan. Sure, I haven´t watched Senna´s 92 as anything more than a brat, but this is even better than Alonso´s ´12, that´s for sure.

[mardmarium]

Maybe the Toro Rosso was better than now and the RB then but there were still at least three teams with better cars: McLaren, Ferrari and BMW and I'm not forgetting Bourdais was 4thHe in qualy (1s behind Vettel but still). I'm not only talking about Monza, he was 4th or 5th a lot of times that year, even in Japan in 2007 he was en route for a podium and in China he was 4th just behind the Ferraris and the McLaren in a car that no one had scored points with until then... and he was 20. So, yes, I think he would be great with lesser machinery just as I think he's great with good machinery.

 

I just don't understand Fernando, he doesn' need to keep saying this. He's also a great driver, he doesn't need to diminish his rivals.

 

I don´t think he is diminishing his rivals, he is simply saying what he thinks. Would you prefer him to lie? Really, what he has said in this article makes sense.

[Tosh]

Erm, sorry to burst your bubble but Vettel was leading the championship early on when Ferrari was better. He performed at maximum level then, and he keeps doing it now with a dominant car.

 

Judge his performances down to what HE does, and you´ll realize that his 2013 is an even more impressive than Alonso´s 2012. As I said somewhere else, this season from Vettel is the best I´ve seen from any driver since I´m a fan. Sure, I haven´t watched Senna´s 92 as anything more than a brat, but this is even better than Alonso´s ´12, that´s for sure.

So u compare Alonsos leading the championship with a dog car in 2012 to Vettel's 2013? Good stuff!

[V3TT3L]

Alonso always talks about Vettel's achievements like a rich spoilled kid that inherited a great team. Unworthy of RedBull.

 

Its the other way around. Vettel and RedBulll became WDC/WCC together.

 

Alonso is the one who inherited a great team from Todt, Byrne, Brawn and Schumy.

 

If the RedBull F1 teams wasn't a promising venture, Mastershitz would have dropped it, like he did in NASCAR.

[Schumster]

To be honest, Fred is right. We currently look at Ayrton Senna with high regard as one of the greatest if not the greatest driver. We currently look at Michael Schumacher's Ferrari days with high regard because he struggled a bit to win the title, with time, that is a great achievement. Same goes for Mika Hakkinen who beat Michael in a striaght fight. 

 

Maybe its Nostalgia.

 

Straight fight? Hardly, the MP4/13 was better.

 

And Alonso' right. Senna faced Prost, hence, we can call him a great, Fangio drove in multiple teams and in an incredibly dangerous era, Prost faced Arnoux/Lauda/Rosberg/Senna/Mansell/Hill and destroyed all of them bar Senna, Schumacher won titles in inferior cars, put amazing performances in the Ferraris 0f '96/'97, matched Hakkinen in a superior car in '98 and beat him in an evenly matched tie '00 and there's, maybe less so but I'm too young to comment on him comprehensively Clark who faced Rindt (someone who had the talent to be a multiple world champion). All proven. Vettel? Lol.

[Skinnyguy]

So u compare Alonsos leading the championship with a dog car in 2012 to Vettel's 2013? Good stuff!

 

I compare DRIVER´S PERFORMANCES, not championship scripts. 

 

You know, these things drivers do inside the car, no matter it´s competitiveness. Like being on it 24/7, not having bogie weekends, how often you´re outqualified/outpaced by your teammate, not doing race ending mistakes... 

[Schumster]

Alonso always talks about Vettel's achievements like a rich spoilled kid that inherited a great team. Unworthy of RedBull.

 

Its the other way around. Vettel and RedBulll became WDC/WCC together.

 

Alonso is the one who inherited a great team from Todt, Byrne, Brawn and Schumy.

 

If the RedBull F1 teams wasn't a promising venture, Mastershitz would have dropped it, like he did in NASCAR.

 

Right, and was Brawn present for Alonso's tenure? Or Todt? Or Byrne? Or Schumacher? Or the unlimited testing that Schumacher had access to and that Ferrari so utilised?

[mardmarium]

Alonso always talks about Vettel's achievements like a rich spoilled kid that inherited a great team. Unworthy of RedBull.

 

Its the other way around. Vettel and RedBulll became WDC/WCC together.

 

Alonso is the one who inherited a great team from Todt, Byrne, Brawn and Schumy.

 

If the Red Bull F1 teams wasn't a promising venture, Mastershitz would have dropped it, like he did in NASCAR.

 

That´s your personal perception, not necessarily the truth. I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why Alonso's words don´t make sense. Saying, "Alonso is insecure, he is delusional, he is diminishing Vettel...doesn't explain anything.

[Skinnyguy]

 

And Alonso' right. Senna faced Prost, hence, we can call him a great, Fangio drove in multiple teams and in an incredibly dangerous era, Prost faced Arnoux/Lauda/Rosberg/Senna/Mansell/Hill and destroyed all of them bar Senna, Schumacher won titles in inferior cars, put amazing performances in the Ferraris 0f '96/'97, matched Hakkinen in a superior car in '98 and beat him in an evenly matched tie '00 and there's, maybe less so but I'm too young to comment on him comprehensively Clark who faced Rindt (someone who had the talent to be a multiple world champion). All proven. Vettel? Lol.

 

Indeed, the current field of drivers isn´t strong at all compared to the past. And the cars are not tight performance wise either compared to the past.

 

Oh wait...

[Gorma]

Alonso is just stating the obvious. How can you really assess someone in the middle of their career compared to the past champions?

Let just look at just a few formula 1 stats shall we. You can have one lucky season à la Button, but there is no way you are going to luck on these lists that consist only of the best of the best of formula 1. These are just a few...

 

Total wins:

1. Schumi

2. Prost

3. Senna

4. Vettel

5. Alonso

6. Mansell

7. Stewart

8. Clarke/Lauda

10. Fangio

 

Total poles:

1. Schumi

2. Senna

3. Vettel

4. Clark/Prost

6. Mansell

7. Hamilton

8. Fangio

9. Häkkinen

10. Lauda, Piquet

 

Total fastest laps

1. Schumi

2. Prost

3. Räikkönen

4. Mansell

5. Clark

6. Häkkinen

7. Lauda

8. Fangio/Piquet

10. Vettel

 

Total races, every lap lead

1. Senna

2. Clark

3. Schumi, Stewart, Vettel

6. Mansell

7. Ascari, Prost

9. Lauda

10. Andretti, Brabham, Fangio, Moss

 

Most laps lead

1. Schumi

2. Senna

3. Prost

4. Vettel

5. Mansell

6. Clark

7. Stewart

8. Alonso

9. Piquet

10. Lauda

[Schumster]

Indeed, the current field of drivers isn´t strong at all compared to the past. And the cars are not tight performance wise either compared to the past.

 

Oh wait...

 

What difference does it make if the drivers are strong when his car has such an advantage? Such a silly point to make. Laughable you make that comment when he's just qualified 1s ahead of the best of the current field. By your logic he is 1s faster than Mr.SixTenths himself.