360 replies to this topic

[andyF1]

Did he drive 'beyond' his car in the vital final races when he struggled to even beat his own team mate?

Remind me how he struggled to beat Massa in the USA and Brazilian grand prix last season please

[andyF1]

Are you serious,  Alonso didn't win not because only of Romain, because he failed to qualify his car higher in the last races, in the end Vettel did win and that's all what matters, nobody is talking about an Alonso winning because he was lucky Schumacher's engine blew out in 2006.. 

Because in the final few races of 2012 the Mclaren and the Red Bull were the faster cars.

 

If we want to go down the luck road just look at last year. Vettel was one of the few drivers to not suffer as a result of Grosjean's antics. It could also be argued that Vettel got a lot of luck in Abu Dhabi last year, with perfect timing of a safety car and half the field wiping themselves out in front of him

 

We could go on with the luck debate all day. Luck will generally even itself out and it's very hard to determine if one driver gets more luck than another driver

Edited by andyF1, 24 November 2013 - 13:47.

[Group B]

Remind me how he struggled to beat Massa in the USA and Brazilian grand prix last season please

 

As I recall he was outqualified both times, so a 100% failure rate there, and beat Massa by a few seconds in the US and less than a second in Brazil, so if Alonso was a driving god making the car do miracles then Massa must be Jesus at the very least. 

[prty]

Or a driver whos team mates gearbox was messed just to get the other guy up in the grid:)You see,double standarts,we probably could do this on and on, but i will drop this now. Have fun boys and girls:)

 

Although unlike Webber, Massa was out of the WDC race at that time, so nope, nothing to hold onto

 

[Molo19]

As I recall he was outqualified both times, so a 100% failure rate there, and beat Massa by a few seconds in the US and less than a second in Brazil, so if Alonso was a driving god making the car do miracles then Massa must be Jesus at the very least. 

And how many times did the 35-36-year-old Webber outqualify Vettel?

[Jvr]

Remind me how he struggled to beat Massa in the USA and Brazilian grand prix last season please

In US there was the gearbox seal case and despite of that Massa finished fourth just behind Alonso. In Brazil Massa yielded the second position to Alonso.

[andyF1]

As I recall he was outqualified both times, so a 100% failure rate there, and beat Massa by a few seconds in the US and less than a second in Brazil, so if Alonso was a driving god making the car do miracles then Massa must be Jesus at the very least. 

 

Yes he was out qualified but he made up for this on race day, the day when points are handed out. He only beat Massa by a second in Brazil, this would be the race that finished under a safety car.

[apoka]

We all agree that Webber is a great driver. But beating him puts you at the same level of Prost, who beat Senna to a championship in the same car. Or Fangio, who won championships in totally different cars?

Time will tell....

 

I don't really mind Vettel not being rated equal to the above three drivers yet. But the comment says "When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now." This basically means that whenever Vettel finishes as Alonso or Hamilton are doing now, his titles will be worthless. However, if he keeps winning, his titles are also not worth much, because he isn't driving a car "like the others". Zero chance to become a great from that point of view.

[sheepgobba]

Alonso is just pissed of cos he is losing reputation and FAST.
It's been a really long time since he won wdc, and has lost it because of his own mistakes like amateur jump start.
His constant whining about his car and other drives just make him look like a sore loser.
Vettel is fast, in a really fast car and does very few mistakes if any.

 

Own mistakes? Rather partly down to the car he has been given by Ferrari. And losing reputation? That's one of the dumbest things I've heard this entire year. If you have a 'Much' faster car you have more space to play with in terms of performance. 

Alonso's 2012 shouldnt be used as benchmark. It was calculated that if not for teamorders, Massa would score more points in second half. He outperformed Alonso in Korea, Brasil, US and kept up in couple of others. Vettel had similar first half, with some defeats in Qs, but he was always on pace on Sunday. 

 

I think Alonso is as close to geting most of his car as last year in terms of points, problem is Vettel got pretty much maximum this year. His car was not dominant till Spa and worse than Ferrari till Canada (just remember how dominant was Ferrari in Barcelona), but he did everything right.

 

I have to disagree with many that Vettel won races only in dominant car. He won more races in second or third best car in last ... (any number of years) than Alonso or Hamilton, you have to look at it on race to race basis and not to think that because RBR was best car over the season therefore all wins were achieved in best car. Thats ultimately wrong way to look at it.

RBR only marginally and third fastest car? Give me a break. Anyone who has watched the last 4 fours season can conclude Red Bull has the best car and majority of the time the fastest car/best car combination. If anything you're looking at it in the wrong way. The Red Bull was strong from the start of the season. Only the tyres held it back. Look how dominant Bahrain was if you think of Ferrari's dominant 'Barcelona'. It was clear from Barcelona onwards the Red Bull has been better than the Ferrari and then from Canada onwards the best car in this season. 

 

Vettel is now the undisputed reference in the grid, both by current performance and by long term performance. Alonso can´t digest that one it seems.

 

He shouldn´t say anything about Vettel, because in the end Vettel got 4 times the best car of the grid and he´s 4 times WDC. That´s something the rest of top drivers can´t say. 

 

- Alonso threw away a chance in the best car in 2007.

- Räikkönen threw away a chance in the best car in 2008.

- Hamilton threw away a chance in the best car in 2007.

 

Yes, these were not dominant cars, but marginally best cars, ala Vettel in 2010 and 2012. But Vettel won these two. Vettel has nothing to prove by now. 

Sorry the 2010 and the 2012 cars were not 'marginally' best cars. It's pace advantage to other cars was simply more than the McLaren and Ferrari from 2007/2008. Only the reliability problems held it back in 2010. Other than that it would have wrapped the WDC earlier. 

 

And lastly don't understand what Fernando was so bad. Seems correct what he has until Seb has a teammate/car he won't be regarded as one of the greats. 

Edited by sheepgobba, 24 November 2013 - 14:01.

[Wanderer]

Yes he was out qualified but he made up for this on race day, the day when points are handed out. He only beat Massa by a second in Brazil, this would be the race that finished under a safety car.

 

Sure but he was only three seconds ahead of Massa before the safety car either so overall it's fair to say he kind of did a Massa-like performance that day where not only points were handed out as you say but also the championship.

 

And don't forget that he was only ahead of Massa because of team orders as usual.

Edited by Wanderer, 24 November 2013 - 14:11.

[Acathla]

 

 

And don't forget that he was only ahead of Massa because of team orders as usual.

 

Sure...  Like Alonso needed a lot of team orders. 

[Group B]

Sure but he was only three seconds ahead of Massa before the safety car either so overall it's fair to say he kind of did a Massa-like performance that day where not only points were handed out as you say but also the championship.

 

And don't forget that he was only ahead of Massa because of team orders as usual.

 

Quite. I'm not here to bash Fred, I lean towards him being the best driver out there, but he's not perfect and the way some of his fans endlessly crucify Vettel while implying Alonso works endless miracles is tiresome to say the least. Neither of them are perfect, on track or off it, but they've both done plenty enough to deserve some recognition among the top few drivers of their era.

[ATM]

To Acathla: chm, chm...Massa gearbox Austin 2012...chm, chm...

Edited by ATM, 24 November 2013 - 14:19.

[andyF1]

 

And don't forget that he was only ahead of Massa because of team orders as usual.

 

As usual? I think it's fair to say that Ferrari is Alonso's team and the team and the car is set up and developed around him. It's also a similar situation at Red Bull with Vettel.

 

Yes team orders have been used from time to time to help Alonso but saying the are usually used to help him is an exaggeration

[jedioriginal]

Own mistakes? Rather partly down to the car he has been given by Ferrari. And losing reputation? That's one of the dumbest things I've heard this entire year. If you have a 'Much' faster car you have more space to play with in terms of performance. 

RBR only marginally and third fastest car? Give me a break. Anyone who has watched the last 4 fours season can conclude Red Bull has the best car and majority of the time the fastest car/best car combination. If anything you're looking at it in the wrong way. The Red Bull was strong from the start of the season. Only the tyres held it back. Look how dominant Bahrain was if you think of Ferrari's dominant 'Barcelona'. It was clear from Barcelona onwards the Red Bull has been better than the Ferrari and then from Canada onwards the best car in this season. 
 

Sorry the 2010 and the 2012 cars were not 'marginally' best cars. It's pace advantage to other cars was simply more than the McLaren and Ferrari from 2007/2008. Only the reliability problems held it back in 2010. Other than that it would have wrapped the WDC earlier. 
 
And lastly don't understand what Fernando was so bad. Seems correct what he has until Seb has a teammate/car he won't be regarded as one of the greats.

So whos fault is a jumpstart if not drivers?

[Wanderer]

As usual? I think it's fair to say that Ferrari is Alonso's team and the team and the car is set up and developed around him. It's also a similar situation at Red Bull with Vettel.

 

Yes team orders have been used from time to time to help Alonso but saying the are usually used to help him is an exaggeration

 

I didn't mean that he was usually behind Massa and needed to get in front of him all the time, I meant that in the cases when he was behind him (like Brazil) he usually got ahead of him by team orders. 

Edited by Wanderer, 24 November 2013 - 14:25.

[Acathla]

To Acathla: chm, chm...Massa gearbox Austin 2012...chm, chm...

 

"a lot of".....................

[BenettonB192]

No doubt. Remember that Schumacher won his fourth title in 2001, a decade after getting into F1. He had already had impressive formative years with Benetton in 1991, 1992, and 1993. He won his first title, controversially, in 1994. He was again very strong in 1995. He then went to Ferrari, which was in no way a backmarker team, but it wasn't a regular title contender either. He won races in his first year there. He challenged for the title in 1997, in 1998, broke his leg in 1999 and came back before the season's end with a dominant performance in Malaysia. He had a fantastic title battle with reining champion Mika Häkkinen in 2000 that really was the stuff drama is made of. That summer was a total nightmare for Schumacher and Ferrari, with multiple lap 1 DNFs, followed by what seemed a knock-out punch in Belgium, when Häkkinen's recovery drive culminated in that impressive overtake into Les Combes. The response by Ferrari and Schumacher was nothing short of fantastic, allowing them to win the title with a win in Japan. Schumacher's fourth title in 2001 wasn't as impressive by comparison, but by then his reputation was already long earned and established.

 

As a Schumacher fan back then i recognized that greatness of his achievements just as i recognize Vettel's. But make no mistake Schumacher was by no means universally hailed. He had plenty of detractors just like Seb. "Schumi only wins because he is a cheat" "Schumi only wins because all the other drivers in his generation are so weak. Even Hakkinen is just mediocre at best" "Schumi only wins because his teammates arn't treated fairly" etc etc. I only started to hear less such opinions when he got back for his less succesful second career and people didn't perceive him as such a threat anymore plus attention shifted to the newer generation of drivers.

[Hyak]

Fernando Alonso is an idiot. His own two titles were a product of rule changes and loopholes.

 

I will never forget when he uttered the words "Formula one is not a sport anymore". I will celebrate the day when he's gone from the grid.

[Winter98]

Alonso is just pissed of cos he is losing reputation and FAST.
It's been a really long time since he won wdc, and has lost it because of his own mistakes like amateur jump start.
His constant whining about his car and other drives just make him look like a sore loser.
Vettel is fast, in a really fast car and does very few mistakes if any.

I don't know if FA is losing his reputation per se.

 

But he certainly wants to be regarded as one of the all time greats, and that's unlikely to happen when he isn't even the best driver of his generation.

[Skinnyguy]

 

 

Sorry the 2010 and the 2012 cars were not 'marginally' best cars. It's pace advantage to other cars was simply more than the McLaren and Ferrari from 2007/2008. Only the reliability problems held it back in 2010. Other than that it would have wrapped the WDC earlier. 

 

 

It´s exactly the same situation. The car was marginally better than the opposition overall, when speed and reliability are both taken into the equation.

 

Vettel took it, Alonso and Hamilton couldn´t in 2007, Kimi couldn´t in 2008.

[fabr68]

So whos fault is a jumpstart if not drivers?

Are we talking about 2010 mistakes?

cough...crash kid...cough

[mnmracer]

Only the reliability problems held it back in 2010. Other than that it would have wrapped the WDC earlier. 

Well, if you want to ignore reliability problems, you'll have to blame Hamilton for not winning 2012.

[mardmarium]

Really? I thought it was Fernando's job to win races and gain as many WDC points as possible. Especially when it became clear over the course of the last few years that the only effect Fernando achieves with his mind games is making himself look stupid.

 

 I don´t think he is playing mind games but the most important thing is that his words, indeed have an effect. For example, Vettel doesn´t ignore what Alonso says, he should, but he doesn´t,  otherwise he would never have said "I need to be careful now, but nothing against Fernando. I really respect him a lot as a driver. But I respect Kimi on track, off track, because he has always been very straight with me”. Come on, nobody inside Red Bull ignores Alonso, why Horner blames Alonso for people booing Vettel is beyond my knowledge.

 

Maldonado says "I think in a RB I would be a World Champion" (I’ve read this in the 2014 silly season thread) but nobody seems to care about his opinion, Alonso says "Time will tell us" and the drama is served, why? Because his opinion is anything but ignored (in general), I think it´s quite obvious.

 

This is what Alonso said "He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now. "So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."

 

Alonso is right. People who don´t give credit to Vettel for what he is doing now, those people exist, will be especially critical of him when he doesn’t manage to win with a car that is not considered the best one (this is probably unfair, but this is the way things are). On the other hand, if he shows that he is able to win with inferior machinery, or simply able to be up there on regular basis (not just one race or few races, it doesn´t seem to be enough for a respectable amount of people) his detractors will have to admit that he is great under any circumstances and he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1 (many people think he is one the legends right now, but other people don´t think so, it is what it is). I have no idea where the problem is because it´s all in Vettel hands, he can shut up everybody and time will tell us.

[EthanM]

Time will also tell about Alonso's greatness though

 

Cause so far, after two championships won 7 years ago while driving the best car, he's been an excellent bridesmaid

[Winter98]

 I don´t think he is playing mind games but the most important thing is that his words, indeed have an effect. For example, Vettel doesn´t ignore what Alonso says, he should, but he doesn´t,...

 

The effect on Vettel seems to be negative as far as Alonso is concerned. 

 

Vettel has the last 4xWDCs.

[Schumster]

As a Schumacher fan back then i recognized that greatness of his achievements just as i recognize Vettel's. But make no mistake Schumacher was by no means universally hailed. He had plenty of detractors just like Seb. "Schumi only wins because he is a cheat" "Schumi only wins because all the other drivers in his generation are so weak. Even Hakkinen is just mediocre at best" "Schumi only wins because his teammates arn't treated fairly" etc etc. I only started to hear less such opinions when he got back for his less succesful second career and people didn't perceive him as such a threat anymore plus attention shifted to the newer generation of drivers.

Revisionism at its finest.

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...port/969323.stm

 

And I can remember watching ITV's season review where Murray was hailing Schumacher as being "up there with the Fangios and Sennas of this world" and that was in 2000.

[Headspin]

Alonso again bitching and complaining about Vettels car advantage. Which is funny cause the other thing Alonso is always bitching and complaining about is that he dont have a car advantage.

Edited by Headspin, 24 November 2013 - 15:01.

[Skinnyguy]

 

People who don´t give credit to Vettel for what he is doing now, those people exist, will be especially critical of him when he doesn’t manage to win with a car that is not considered the best one (this is probably unfair, but this is the way things are). On the other hand, if he shows that he is able to win with inferior machinery, or simply able to be up there on regular basis (not just one race or few races, it doesn´t seem to be enough for a respectable amount of people) his detractors will have to admit that he is great.

 

If there´s still someone not convinced by now, that´ll never change. 

 

Because he´s already won races like that, where there were faster cars trying to get him and he resisted like a lion. People get carried away with the whole dominance stuff. No doubt RB was overall the best car these years by a country mile... but he´s already showed time and time again the times the car wasn´t the fastest he can do these things some STILL doubt he can do. Nothing to prove anymore.

[Winter98]

Alonso again bitching and complaining about Vettels car advantage. Which is funny cause the other thing Alonso is always bitching and complaining about is that he dont have a car advantage.

ROFL!   You nailed it! 

[krobinson]

A bit of a sore loser. As much as I don't like Sebastian, he's wiped the floor with Webber who's in the same car. Take away Vettel and you don't see Webber having the last four titles. Yes, it's down to the car, but Vettel also has the extra speed to cope with it, unlike his teammate in the same car.

 

Just because Webber has been a fool for years and thankfully now leaves F1, does not lessen the greatness of the RB cars. After 2011 Webber should have been fired from Red Bull and from F1 in general, that pathetic was his performance. 

 

Difference is, Seb has taken the opportunities he had to take the titles in the last 4 years. Alonso could and should have done so in Abu Dhabi, but failed miserably. Also last year, Seb with a badly damaged car did everything exactly right to seal the championship. He won that one because of his cool and focused head. Alonso and his team in the sort-like situation in Abu Dhabi panicked badly and lost the championship themselves.

 

Seb had to fight hard for at least 2 of his WDCs (he fought hard as well for the others, just that others couldn't really follow him), while Alonso has basically been gifted all of his WDCs

 

Nonsense. Alonso was by far the best driver in 2006 and while it is true that the engine problems of Mercedes made it easier for Alonso in 2005, he still drove a perfect season, very high quality season. Far better than any season Vettel has ever managed.

Alonso deserved his titles completely, to say he was gifted his titles is borderline insane. 

Vettel on the otherhand should have won each title since 2009 (including) with ease, such was the dominance of his cars. That he had to fight for it so hard against Alonso in two of those seasons shows how great Alonso is and how much better than Vettel he is.

I'm not a particularly big fan of Alonso, but that doesn't make him wrong. Seb is an excellent driver these days, but frankly I believe that's down to Red Bull making him one. Vettel's success has been a virtuous circle as Gary Anderson put it. Every year he has less to prove and he can take things in a more and more relaxed mindset, while time is running out for the rest of the top guys.

 

If he were not a Red Bull driver, I don't believe he would have won a single championship title, let alone several. If Lewis or Fernando had been driving the RB5 derivatives, not only would I expect them to have been even more dominant, but having had a fair chance of beating Jenson to title in 2009. Vettel recently suggested that RB5 was good enough to do that.

 

Vettel's a wonderful driver, but I can't picture anyone considering him all-time great nevermind the greatest had he been anything besides a Red Bull man. Someone else would have got that recognition instead.

 

If Alonso had accepted the offer of Red Bull in 2009, he would be a 7x WDC by now, whereas Button and Vettel would be 0X WDC. Unlike Vettel, he would not have wasted the RB car in 2009, nor would have been taken to the last race in either 2010 and 2012. 

 

Exactly, but from Vettel fans. What that Red Bull chasis did in the wet before Monza:

 

2007 Nurburgring: Webber 3rd, Coulthard 5th, Speed and Liuzzi spun off

2007 Fuji: Coulthard 4th, Liuzzi 9th, Webber and Vettel crashed into each other while running 2nd and 3rd.

2007 China: Vettel 4th, Liuzzi 6th, Coulthard 8th, Webber 10th

2008 Monaco: Webber 4th, Vettel 5th, Coulthard and Bourdais retired.

 

Now consider the Ferrari engine in the Toro Rosso was way better than the Renault in the Red Bull at that time, and the fact that it was Monza, and suddenly it becomes a very far cry from the "he won in a Minardi" that Vettel's fans want us to believe.

 

Reality is the worst enemy of Vettel fans. TR was an excellent car that weekend, quite probably the best car of the weekend. That a driver like Bourdais, who was a complete failure in F1, was able to do so well with it, shows you just how great the car was.

 

Fernando Alonso is an idiot. His own two titles were a product of rule changes and loopholes.

 

I will never forget when he uttered the words "Formula one is not a sport anymore". I will celebrate the day when he's gone from the grid.

 

The only one whose titles are a product of rule changes is Newey Passenger Vettel. 

Well, if you want to ignore reliability problems, you'll have to blame Hamilton for not winning 2012.

Why? McLaren was not the fastest nor the best car of the year, both of those honours easily belong to Red Bull.

[krea]

Revisionism at its finest.

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...port/969323.stm

 

And I can remember watching ITV's season review where Murray was hailing Schumacher as being "up there with the Fangios and Sennas of this world" and that was in 2000.

 

Prost: "Schumacher better than me"

Prost "Vettel better than me"

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p01h42ch

 

People who knows his **** are pro-Vettel. We're talking just about crazy fanboys of other drivers.

[mardmarium]

The effect on Vettel seems to be negative as far as Alonso is concerned. 

 

Vettel has the last 4xWDCs.

 

Some people seem to think Vettel doesn´t care about Alonso words, it´s quite obvious that´s not the case.

 

What effect is Alonso looking for? How do you know that he isn´t saying what he thinks? Does he think that by saying "time will tell us" Vettel will suddenly lose his skills? Really? How do you know that he has such a simplistic mind?

 

 

 

[sennafan24]

Prost: "Schumacher better than me"

Prost "Vettel better than me"

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p01h42ch

 

People who knows his **** are pro-Vettel. We're talking just about crazy fanboys of other drivers.

You really need to chill, the Vettel cynics are becoming a vast minority.

 

Most rate him as a elite driver in 2013, both experts and fans

[Skinnyguy]

Just because Webber has been a fool for years and thankfully now leaves F1, does not lessen the greatness of the RB cars. After 2011 Webber should have been fired from Red Bull and from F1 in general, that pathetic was his performance. 

 

Indeed. Just like Massa.

 

 

Nonsense. Alonso was by far the best driver in 2006

 

Yes, not by far, but true, he was the man of the season.

 

 

and while it is true that the engine problems of Mercedes made it easier for Alonso in 2005, he still drove a perfect season

 

No.

 

very high quality season.

 

Yes, that´s more like it.

 

 

Far better than any season Vettel has ever managed.

 

No way.

 

Alonso deserved his titles completely, to say he was gifted his titles is borderline insane. 

 

Yes. but same story for Vettel´s. Yet you´re doing it

 

 

Vettel on the otherhand should have won each title since 2009 (including) with ease, such was the dominance of his cars. That he had to fight for it so hard against Alonso in two of those seasons shows how great Alonso is and how much better than Vettel he is.

 

No. It shows the field was much tighter than some will ever admit.

 

If Alonso had accepted the offer of Red Bull in 2009, he would be a 7x WDC by now, whereas Button and Vettel would be 0X WDC. Unlike Vettel, he would not have wasted the RB car in 2009, nor would have been taken to the last race in either 2010 and 2012. 

 

Add as many virtual titles to whoever if that comforts you.

 

 

Reality is the worst enemy of Vettel fans. TR was an excellent car that weekend, quite probably the best car of the weekend. That a driver like Bourdais, who was a complete failure in F1, was able to do so well with it, shows you just how great the car was.

 

Sour grapes.

 

 

The only one whose titles are a product of rule changes is Newey Passenger Vettel. 

Why? McLaren was not the fastest nor the best car of the year, both of those honours easily belong to Red Bull.

 

More of them

[krea]

You really need to chill, the Vettel cynics are becoming a vast minority.

 

Most rate him as a elite driver in 2013, both experts and fans

 

read the thread

 

The same handful fanboys talking nonsense.

[krobinson]

 

 

Far better than any season Vettel has ever managed.

 

No way.

 

I will not address any of your other "points", because they contained no substance, but I will adress this one. Name the seasons where vettel drove better than Alonso did in 2005.

[sennafan24]

Re Alonso/2005 - He did drive a almost faultless season, but he did put his car into the wall in Canada. 

 

read the thread

 

The same handful fanboys talking nonsense.

For every "fanboy" as you put it,  there is at least 2 who think differently.

 

Its a minority that do not rate Seb as a elite driver these days, the minority is vocal, but every top driver from Senna, Prost and Schumi all have that vocal minority. You make it out to be worse than it is present day, this time last year the amount of Seb haters was a lot worse.

[sennafan24]

I will not address any of your other "points", because they contained no substance, but I will adress this one. Name the seasons where vettel drove better than Alonso did in 2005.

There is not much between Seb's 2013, and Alonso's 2005 in my book.

[swerved]

 

 

Reality is the worst enemy of Vettel fans. 

 

Irony is your greatest ally.

[Skinnyguy]

I will not address any of your other "points", because they contained no substance, but I will adress this one. Name the seasons where vettel drove better than Alonso did in 2005.

 

You don´t even have to think, this one. 

[fabr68]

This is what Alonso said "He is 26 years old, so when he will have a car like the others, if he wins, he will have a great recognition and be one of the legends in F1. When one day he has a car like the others and he is fourth, fifth, seventh, these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take these four titles even in a worse manner than they are doing now. "So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."

 

Amazing that  there are so many broken hearts, panties in a bunch and hurt butts for that.  Alonso's answer to the "leyend" question is basically how every single formula 1 driver is rated at the moment.    Alonso was never considered any good when he won his titles at Renault.  It was after his time in Mclaren and second stint at Renault that people started appreciating his worth.  Same with Hamilton, he stock has gone up since he joined Mercedes more in a few months that his whole time at Mclaren.

 

Same will be for Vettel, as time passes he faces different cars, teams and teammates throughout his career.   It will be at the end his legacy that he will be evaluated on his status as a leyend compared to the all time greats.

 

No need to be so insecure to turn a thread about Vettel being or not a leyend yet into an Alonso bashing thread to belittle his driving skills based on an answer to a loaded spicy question asked with obvious intentions.  Why do you think Alonso was asked if he sees Vettel as a leyend of the same caliber as Fangio, Prost and M.S.?   What do you think is the right answer?  Yes?   please....

Edited by fabr68, 24 November 2013 - 15:39.

[Schumster]

Prost: "Schumacher better than me"

Prost "Vettel better than me"

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p01h42ch

 

People who knows his **** are pro-Vettel. We're talking just about crazy fanboys of other drivers.

Is Vettel your baby boy? Jesus, I was talking about Schumacher and not Vettel.

 

Like the rest have said, the vast majority believe he is an elite driver but whether he's better than Alonso is one matter, whether he's better than Raikkonen is, also, another matter. One of the all time greats? Debatable. Top 20? For sure.

[prty]

Alonso again bitching and complaining about Vettels car advantage. Which is funny cause the other thing Alonso is always bitching and complaining about is that he dont have a car advantage.

 

More like having a car disadvantage, bitching about not having a car advantage is more Vettel style

[Skinnyguy]

Amazing that  there are so many broken hearts, panties in a bunch and hurt butts for that.

 

So many? Only one of those was enough to fire this one.

[sheepgobba]

So whos fault is a jumpstart if not drivers?

Alonso, but who's failure/fault is it to not deliver a sustained championship capable car in the 4 years he's been at Ferrari? 

 

It´s exactly the same situation. The car was marginally better than the opposition overall, when speed and reliability are both taken into the equation.

 

Vettel took it, Alonso and Hamilton couldn´t in 2007, Kimi couldn´t in 2008.

Still don't see it as marginally better but I guess that's a matter of opinion then. 

 

Well, if you want to ignore reliability problems, you'll have to blame Hamilton for not winning 2012.

Hamilton as far I can see only made one mistake in Valencia and that was fighting too hard against Pastor... Other than he drove well and only the reliability and team operations held Lewis from winning the title. 

[BenettonB192]

Revisionism at its finest.

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...port/969323.stm

 

And I can remember watching ITV's season review where Murray was hailing Schumacher as being "up there with the Fangios and Sennas of this world" and that was in 2000.

 

Are you kidding me? Prost and Murray hail Vettel aswell. I'm talking about the usual crowds obviously.

[wateryturtle]

This race is really proving that Red Bull have no advantage right?

[mclara]

This race is really proving that Red Bull have no advantage right?

 

No, it's all down to Vettel...

[mnmracer]

This race is really proving that Red Bull have no advantage right?

Other than Vettel haters like you, who says so?