55 replies to this topic

[Petroltorque]

It has puzzled me why he is yet t receive a knighthood. He successfully built up a world beating technology company and has achieved peerless success in F1 with Project 4.

Edited by Petroltorque, 05 December 2013 - 15:06.

[SophieB]

Probably because he was awarded the CBE back in 2000. You can get both, but it's pretty unusual.

edited to add: It's not a great way to get an answer to your question when you take such a defiant line about one of the most controversial episodes in F1. If the thread becomes yet another rehash of 2007, it will be closed.

Edited by SophieB, 05 December 2013 - 13:19.

[Amphicar]

It has puzzled me why he is yet t receive a knighthood. He successfully built up a world beating technology company and has achieved peerless success in F1 with Project 4. Please don't quote Spygate as an excuse. That was a farrago in which he was made a scapegoat!

Probably for the same reason Graham Hill's knighthood was blocked - someone with Establishment connections blackballed him. In Graham Hill's case it was Louis Stanley who put the knife in - I know who I think might have done the same for Ron but our libel laws mean that I'm not going to name him (or her).

[Petroltorque]

Really interesting that he could have been blackballed. Sean Connery was knighted after admitting to beating his wife. I've met the man. The only fault I would put on him is that he is borderline obsessive compulsive with his emphasis on detail but maybe that's what it takes to run a successful company. I also admire that he is embarrassingly honest!

[tifosiMac]

Certainly a deserving character for what he has achieved and built IMO. He does have a CBE though so perhaps that is enough. I can't see Ron wanting to be referred to as 'Sir'. I don't think its his style.

[tifosiMac]

Really interesting that he could have been blackballed. Sean Connery was knighted after admitting to beating his wife. I've met the man. The only fault I would put on him is that he is borderline obsessive compulsive with his emphasis on detail but maybe that's what it takes to run a successful company. I also admire that he is embarrassingly honest!

Well he used to be. Unfortunately for Sean he is sat in an old peoples home in his adopted LA now with not much clue about what is going on.

[discover23]

It has puzzled me why he is yet t receive a knighthood. He successfully built up a world beating technology company and has achieved peerless success in F1 with Project 4. Please don't quote Spygate as an excuse. That was a farrago in which he was made a scapegoat!

That is not true.. sorry

[Petroltorque]

So to clarify; we're saying that a CBE trumps a KBE?

[scheivlak]

 I also admire that he is embarrassingly honest!

 

 

"Ron Dennis once said to a colleague of mine, who accused Ron of lying, 'well of course I was going to lie, a billion dollars was involved.' " 

http://atlasf1.autos.../mon/goren.html

[fabr68]

For a minute I misread "knifed"

Edited by fabr68, 05 December 2013 - 14:31.

[SophieB]

So to clarify; we're saying that a CBE trumps a KBE?

 
No, not at all. I'm saying that by convention, if you have been awarded a CBE, it's unusual to be granted a later Knighthood (KBE) too, although this has happened. Why? Possibly because CBEs and KBEs are often granted in recognition of someone's overall career achievements. So if you have already been given a CBE, chances are the material submitted to the Honours Committee for consideration of a Knighthood has already been recognised in the CBE award. But as I say, there have been people who have been granted CBEs and then KBEs.
 
Speaking of the Honours Committees, that's how they're granted these days, by the way - panels of independent civil servants award them on the basis of the nominations submitted: https://www.gov.uk/honours-committees

The simplest and most likely explanation for someone not being granted an honour, therefore is that were not nominated or, if they were, that the nomination didn't contain sufficient evidence for the committee to award an honour on the basis of it. I guess in theory you could try and bribe committee members but pretty risky if they turn you in.

[R Soul]

I'll use my £10 for something else then.

[MustangSally]

 
No, not at all. I'm saying that by convention, if you have been awarded a CBE, it's unusual to be granted a later Knighthood (KBE) too, although this has happened. 

 

Yes, it is not so common - and difficult to understand why some are chosen and about the timing.

 

Paul McCartney got an MBE in 1965 and was knighted 32 years later, in 1997. 

 

He also received a Legion d'Honneur from Hollande in 2012. It could simply be politicians rewarding their early idols.

 

Maybe Ron will just have to wait until a McLaren fan becomes PM?

[Vitesse2]

Probably for the same reason Graham Hill's knighthood was blocked - someone with Establishment connections blackballed him. In Graham Hill's case it was Louis Stanley who put the knife in - I know who I think might have done the same for Ron but our libel laws mean that I'm not going to name him (or her).

I'd be interested to see your evidence re Graham: I've seen comments that Big Lou wasn't happy about the possibility, but I don't think he was 'establishment' enough to block it - especially under a Labour PM. And I'm sure Graham's connections to the Royal Family were far better than Lou's.

 

At the time sportsmen didn't get a K until they had officially retired - see for example Gary Sobers, Richard Hadlee, 'Our 'Enery' Cooper, Viv Richards, Bobby Moore etc. NGH didn't officially announce his retirement until mid-1975, so the first possible date would have been the 1976 New Year list, in which there was - unusually - no new sporting knight. Gary Sobers received his in the 1975 list, Walter Winterbottom in 1977. Given Graham's campaigning work in motor racing safety and on behalf of disabled drivers I'm pretty certain he'd have been a shoo-in.

[Petroltorque]

On reflection when one considers how the Honours system has been brought into disrepute maybe a Knighthood might not be fitting recognition after all. After all success is its own reward.

[SophieB]

On reflection when one considers how the Honours system has been brought into disrepute maybe a Knighthood might not be fitting recognition after all. After all success is its own reward.

 

Who says the Honours system has been brought into disrepute and on what evidence?

[Petroltorque]

At the risk of going off topic and incurring the wrath of the moderators. We have such "stalwarts" of society as, Saville, Stuart Hall, Reverend Paul Flowers, Fred 'the shred' Goodwin, to name a few, all receiving gongs of one form or another. I'm left raising a quizzical eyebrow as to how much vetting the Honours Committee performs.

 I haven't even included the numbers of honours awarded simply on the basis of donations to political parties. I'm afraid the whole honours system was brought into disrepute over 100 years ago under Lloyd George, who sold peerages for political favours. If I'm not mistaken there was a popular ditty at the time; ' Lloyd George knew my father and my father knew Lloyd George.....'

Edited by Petroltorque, 05 December 2013 - 16:51.

[Kristian]

it was Louis Stanley who put the knife in

 

Nice pun! 

 

On topic, is it just me or is the F1 world more overlooked than other sports when it comes to knighthoods? Certainly Ross Brawn and Adrian Newey belong in the list along with Ron of deserving the status from modern F1 alone, and yet in other sports you just need one good Olympics or cycle race and suddenly you're knighted. 

[Petroltorque]

Indeed! If you consider the UK needs 5000 engineers a year to compete in the global economy one would think the powers that be would be falling over themselves to promote excellence in technology.

[Clatter]

Nice pun! 

 

On topic, is it just me or is the F1 world more overlooked than other sports when it comes to knighthoods? Certainly Ross Brawn and Adrian Newey belong in the list along with Ron of deserving the status from modern F1 alone, and yet in other sports you just need one good Olympics or cycle race and suddenly you're knighted. 

I think it's more the case that awards are handed out to freely in other sports, especially Olympians. 

[SophieB]

At the risk of going off topic and incurring the wrath of the moderators. We have such "stalwarts" of society as, Saville, Stuart Hall, Reverend Paul Flowers, Fred 'the shred' Goodwin, to name a few, all receiving gongs of one form or another. I'm left raising a quizzical eyebrow as to how much vetting the Honours Committee performs.

The Honours Committees are not there, nor do they have the resources, to investigate potential crimes or wrongdoing. They submit recommendations from the nominations submitted to them and (presumably) ensure that the individuals have in fact performed the public services they've been nominated for.

You really cannot have it both ways - you can say you would like them to listen to hearsay or even gossip and disqualify on such things (which seems to be why you suspect Ron has been unfairly overlooked in the first place?) or you can say they should act entirely on the evidence in the public domain, which to the best of my understanding is what they do anyway.

[Fastcake]

At the risk of going off topic and incurring the wrath of the moderators. We have such "stalwarts" of society as, Saville, Stuart Hall, Reverend Paul Flowers, Fred 'the shred' Goodwin, to name a few, all receiving gongs of one form or another. I'm left raising a quizzical eyebrow as to how much vetting the Honours Committee performs.

 

Very little, because it's not their responsibility. They're not Scotland Yard.

 

Nice pun! 

 

On topic, is it just me or is the F1 world more overlooked than other sports when it comes to knighthoods? Certainly Ross Brawn and Adrian Newey belong in the list along with Ron of deserving the status from modern F1 alone, and yet in other sports you just need one good Olympics or cycle race and suddenly you're knighted. 

 

No it isn't overlooked. It's more that the actual competitors get given gongs for their achievements, partly perhaps through public expectation, while the behind the scenes staff find it harder. Hence why Hamilton and Button both received honours in next list, similar to Olympians last year.

[Vitesse2]

Nice pun! 

 

On topic, is it just me or is the F1 world more overlooked than other sports when it comes to knighthoods? Certainly Ross Brawn and Adrian Newey belong in the list along with Ron of deserving the status from modern F1 alone, and yet in other sports you just need one good Olympics or cycle race and suddenly you're knighted. 

The fabled Man on the Clapham Omnibus is far more likely to recognise the names of Ben Ainslie, Chris Hoy and Bradley Wiggins than those of Ross Brawn or Adrian Newey ... added to which F1 is widely viewed as 'the millionaires' sport'.

[Petroltorque]

The Honours Committees are not there, nor do they have the resources, to investigate potential crimes or wrongdoing. They submit recommendations from the nominations submitted to them and (presumably) ensure that the individuals have in fact performed the public services they've been nominated for.

You really cannot have it both ways - you can say you would like them to listen to hearsay or even gossip and disqualify on such things (which seems to be why you suspect Ron has been unfairly overlooked in the first place?) or you can say they should act entirely on the evidence in the public domain, which to the best of my understanding is what they do anyway.

 I think you may be looking at this through the rose tinted eyes of youth. I'm old enough to take a much cynical view. No-one is suggesting judgements are made on hearsay but only the most naïve of us would not admit that there is a heavy political influence to the nominations/ awards. You only have to look at the political scandal of 2006/2007 for evidence of disrepute (and  that scandal  WAS investigated by Scotland Yard, btw).

 The point I'm making is Frank Williams was Knighted for contributions to motorsport. Ron Dennis attained a similar level of success, if things were truly meritocratic Dennis should have got a KBE as well.

Edited by Petroltorque, 05 December 2013 - 17:17.

[SophieB]

I think you may be looking at this through the rose tinted eyes of youth. I'm old enough to take a much cynical view. No-one is suggesting judgements are made on hearsay but only the most naïve of us would not admit that there is a heavy political influence to the nominations/ awards. You only have to look at the political scandal of 2006/2007 for evidence of disrepute (and that scandal WAS investigated by Scotland Yard, btw).
The point I'm making is Frank Williams was Knighted for contributions to motorsport. Ron Dennis attained a similar level of success, if things were truly meritocratic Dennis should have got a KBE as well.

You understand that the civil servants don't report in to the politicians? They can lean all they like. And this isn't based on naivety but personal experience. And as for the Honours in particular, my answers are also informed by having a pretty sound personal source who has good personal knowledge of the committees and their work. But all the workings are in the public domain. If you are still annoyed by it all, I imagine you could submit a Freedom of Information request about the year 2000 honours. All the committee meetings will be minuted and agreed.

I am not sure what you believe bringing in the cash for honours scandal in proves, beyond supporting your belief the politicians can somehow get involved in underhand fashion. If those allegations were accurate, I would say what it did do was raise important questions about the very high level of honours coming up with the rations, so to speak for public officials but that's about it. I've given you the guidance on how the honours for motorsport are selected, the politicians don't come into it. In the case of honours *for* politicians, they obviously are not quite so outside the system and so not that relevant here.

So you're back to the question of how come it's Sir Frank but only Mr Dennis? And the dull answer is most likely going to be a combination of the nomination for Sir Frank being better written and making the better case or even simply a different set of committee members just using their honest judgement but still ending up being overall tougher markers for Ron. It happens. There is after all, a large degree of subjectivity to it all. To turn it back, why should it be anything more sinister? It's not as if being made CBE isn't a hugely prestigious honour in its own right.

Still, for what it is worth, if you were to ask me if Ron should get a Knighthood, I'd agree he deserved it. Maybe he'll get one yet. After all, I said it's not common to get both but that it sometimes happens. It did for Frank Williams who was awarded the CBE in 1987...

[BRG]

I'm afraid the whole honours system was brought into disrepute over 100 years ago under Lloyd George, who sold peerages for political favours. If I'm not mistaken there was a popular ditty at the time; ' Lloyd George knew my father and my father knew Lloyd George.....'

It was corrupt long before that!  Under King James 1st (& 6th) the rank of baronet (the hereditary Sir-ship) was invented and sold off for cash to various rich but otherwise undeserving citizens.

 

As for the thread, what about John Surtees?  He has been waiting a LOT longer than Ron, deserving though he certainly is.

[MustangSally]

To the public, the criteria do often seem vague and inconsistent.

 

But at the end of the day, it isn't a popularity contest.

 

There was a massive campaign to get Bruce Forsyth his knighthood . . . which he only attained at 84 after a pretty dedicated 70 years to the entertainment industry.

 

Has Ron contributed more to the British Empire than 'Come Dancing', you might say?

 

But that's not the right question. Many of the honours (especially MBEs) are given to people you have never heard of - working in unglamorous sectors - who would not be rewarded in any other way.

 

Motorsport is fairly well represented with Sir Frank, Sir Jackie and Nigel Mansell having both an OBE and a CBE. 

[DampMongoose]

Unless he declined a previous offer, John Surtees is a million people nearer the front of the queue!

[Collombin]

Has Ron contributed more to the British Empire than 'Come Dancing', you might say?

Come Dancing was written by the greatest living Englishman, Raymond Douglas Davies, who is a mere CBE. Nuff said.

[john ruston]

Yes Newey,Brawn and Ron all probably deserve to be knighted but to give the example of Ainsley,Hoy and Wiggins of just an odd Olympics and cycle race is nonsense.Multiple success over many Olympics,Worlds and Major Events.People who dominated their event over years.

John Surtees is probably more deserving of a knighthood than any of the three Motorsport people given and it is reasonable to think Adrian Newey will be recognised at the end of his career rather than now.

[Petroltorque]

It could be argued that Dennis' efforts are not confined to motorsport but business in General. McLaren Group is a multi billion pound company. He was also on the Prime Minister's trade delegation to China this week. It is possible that he could receive his KBE for contributions to business.

[BRG]

It is possible that he could receive his KBE for contributions to business.

That depends on whether he has made his donation to Conservative Party funds.

[f1RacingForever]

Being knighted? I assume this has something to do with the monarchy?

[Nonesuch]

Being knighted? I assume this has something to do with the monarchy?

 

It's a British thing that few to none outside their shores really understand - both in terms of how it works, and why it matters.

 

Anyway, McLaren's heydays of the late 1980s were over 20 years ago now. I suppose Dennis would be more happy with even a single WCC in the 21st century than with some award.

Edited by Nonesuch, 05 December 2013 - 23:23.

[wepmob2000]

That and the fact that nobody seems to like him.

 

That hasn't impeded the Knighthood's of many, many, worthies, less worthies, and politicians over the years, most of whom get knighted simply for doing a well paid job. Love or loathe him, Ron Dennis has built a spectacular showcase of British talent and technology, and an internationally recognised brand.

Edited by wepmob2000, 06 December 2013 - 01:14.

[packapoo]

Probably for the same reason Graham Hill's knighthood was blocked - someone with Establishment connections blackballed him. In Graham Hill's case it was Louis Stanley who put the knife in - I know who I think might have done the same for Ron but our libel laws mean that I'm not going to name him (or her).

 

That (or her) says it all.

Not a clue!

[Tsarwash]

Who says the Honours system has been brought into disrepute and on what evidence?

It's been in diseprute for easily over a hundred years now.

[kenkip]

I read on this forum a while back that Adrian Newey cant be knighted because he was expelled?

[kenkip]

Expelled from school I mean

[SophieB]

I read on this forum a while back that Adrian Newey cant be knighted because he was expelled?

 

That sounds very unlikely. Mick Jagger has a knighthood despite having been found guilty in court of a criminal offence and been sentenced to a year in prison (reduced to a fine and probation on appeal.)

[Amphicar]

That sounds very unlikely. Mick Jagger has a knighthood despite having been found guilty in court of a criminal offence and been sentenced to a year in prison (reduced to a fine and probation on appeal.)

Richard Branson and Eric Clapton were both expelled from school but that didn't prevent beardie from being knighted or slowhand from being awarded a CBE.

[Owen]

Dennis has been named in the top 4 Automotive 'men of the year' by Autocar. 1 place above Adrian Newey.

[PayasYouRace]

To the public, the criteria do often seem vague and inconsistent.

 

But at the end of the day, it isn't a popularity contest.

 

There was a massive campaign to get Bruce Forsyth his knighthood . . . which he only attained at 84 after a pretty dedicated 70 years to the entertainment industry.

 

Has Ron contributed more to the British Empire than 'Come Dancing', you might say?

 

But that's not the right question. Many of the honours (especially MBEs) are given to people you have never heard of - working in unglamorous sectors - who would not be rewarded in any other way.

 

Motorsport is fairly well represented with Sir Frank, Sir Jackie and Nigel Mansell having both an OBE and a CBE. 

 

Which is obviously the case for my grandfather's MBE and my great-grandfather's OBE.

[ch103]

Who really gives a ****?  From an American's perspective, Ron Dennis has already solidified his place in F1's history.  The prefix "Sir" isn't going to make him more iconic.

[PayasYouRace]

Not everything has to do with whether it matters to Americans, and certianly not British honours.

[ch103]

I guess what I am trying to get at is, Ron Dennis has already achieved Iconic status as far as F1 is concerned.  What exactly would knighthood do for him?

[Paul Parker]

That depends on whether he has made his donation to Conservative Party funds.

 

Inappropriate comment in my opinion but if you want to turn this into a polemic where Conservative Party is a pejorative term what about the Labour Party?

[Petroltorque]

A knighthood would put an exclamation mark next to that iconic status. Doubly so since Dennis is a self made man who achieved much in business without the help of "the old boys network".

[ch103]

Do individuals who achieve knighthood receive additional rights over a regular citizen?  

[PayasYouRace]

I guess what I am trying to get at is, Ron Dennis has already achieved Iconic status as far as F1 is concerned.  What exactly would knighthood do for him?

 

It's a formal recognition of his achievements. It's not about making him more iconic.