877 replies to this topic

[eronrules]

finally a confirmation of the name ... if that's something to go with 

 

 

nicholas prost is working his A** off in the simulator.

 

 

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Nico Prost‏@nico_prost

Last day of sim before X-Mas. E22 looking good @Lotus_F1Team #F1 pic.twitter.com/Ker3cl2xxI

 

rumors have been swirling around regarding the development of E22 being way behind schedule compared to 'other teams' and possible launch delay ... though Romain Grosjean has been playing things down a bit.

 

 

... Romain Grosjean has also admitted that he is yet to drive the 2014 Lotus in the simulator.

“I hope to do this in late December,” he told Brazil’s Totalrace.

“It is because [the simulator] is a new tool for us.

“We are still working to make it as accurate as possible. When we get this synchronicity between the behaviour of the car on the track and in the simulator, we can change the focus to the car of next year,” he explained. (GMM)

 

sounds not too optimistic ... does he. 

[Shiroo]

How the heck they can have simulator without knowing the engine. each engine will work different etc.

[santababy]

Should be Renault engine, Grosjean still with the team.

[eronrules]

i personally don't think Renault will abandon them. they might still come to the rescue of the team financially. Renault and Total goes hand in hand. 

 

regarding the car, probably the initial ground works were laid down by James Allison and Co. so i do expect the car to be a good midfield package out of the box. though we don't know the details regarding how those initial concepts were worked on with gradual brain drain from within Enstone since June of this year.  

 

i think that ....

 

1. they will keep the tunnel solution feeding the starter motor hole as pioneered by RBR

2. they should be easy on the pirelli's. but if pirelli goes super conservative or mandates 2 pitstops, that advantage will be nullified, Lotus's have always struggled to generate Front tire temp as illustrated by Kimi and Heikki respectively. 

3. they probably have the best of the FRIC suspensions in Formula 1 ATM. so that will carry-over to 2014

 

although i must say, the decision not to join pirelli's 2014 tire test might come to haunt them. 

 

and in WCC, i expect Lotusf1 won't be in the top 4 anymore, they might battle with FI and Sauber as the Tier 1 midfield groups ahead of Williams and STR (tier 2). but i guess time will tell. 

[Wiggy]

How can they be driving the car in a simulator when there isn't a car to begin with?! Or are they planning on competing 2014 with a 'simulated' car?

[eronrules]

How can they be driving the car in a simulator when there isn't a car to begin with?! Or are they planning on competing 2014 with a 'simulated' car?

 

maybe they left the job of car making to CaterhamF1  ... if the recent merger rumors are to be believed. 

 

LoCaterTusHam ECT - 22/04      

[Hayden1]

There is no engine deal for this car so how they can simulate ?     

[NexusIcon]

I read somewhere that the E22 was started in 2012 so I don't see any problems with the launch car at least. Developments are another thing altogether.

I can also recall an article mentioning the Renault deal had been agreed, in principle, for engines but the delayed announcement was due to them thrashing out a deal for Renault to have possibly more involvement than just as an engine supplier. I guess (and I have to due to lack of news to the contrary) that deal still stands.

Again, I don't foresee any problems getting a decent car to race 1. It's going forward from there that concerns me..

[Rybo]

With the first test dates about 2 months away, you have to wonder if they will even make the first test. And if they do how successful will it be? Even if Renault supplies their info, can they share that data with the team even though their aren't contracted?

[Alburaq]

They are working with Renault on the new car since 2 years. And they are negotiating a contract that is similar to the Renault-RBR contract. 

Renault has virtualy 2 customers for 2014; Lotus and RBR, as STR and Caterham will buy their ERS and Gear-boxes from RBR. And it wont be difficult to make Lotus a 2nd works team. 

 

Some important points about Lotus:

If you look at Lotus's 2012 and 2013 seasons , you could notice that there is a big contrast between what Lotus did at the factory and what Lotus did on the track regarding developpment.

At Enstone, they spent a lot of money to renovate and upgrade the factory and prepare 2014. They :

 

- installed a test bench for the gearboxes, no need to make the Viry/Enstone travel 50 times per month anymore

- updated and upgrded the supercomputer 

- replaced most of their 3-axis machines with modern 5-axis machines

- installed a modern simulator

- renovated the composites department

- started the 2014 program very early (perhaps earlier than Mercedes for example)

etc. .

 

However, if we look closely at their development campaign in 2013, you'll find out that they have tried to be as economic as possible;

 

They kept the same chassis/monocoque design between 2012 and 2013 and this is the first time they do that. Even between 2006 and 2007 were the regulations stood still, they produced a completely different monocoque) and only Williams and the two smallest teams did the same.

- They have clearly established a strict and limited development program. They didnt copy any other car while all the other big/medium teams are copiying each other. There is plenty of fancy technical solutions that you can find on all the other cars but not on the E21.

- They did other savings regarding Raikkonen's salary and Grosejan's car

 

Their biggest 2013 developments; the DRD and the long wheelbase are long term investments. The DRD will still be legal in 2014 and thanks to the long wheelbase, they killed three birds with one stone:

 

- they tested the simulator

- They prepared in 2014 as cars will probably have a longer wheelbase

- they have improved the E21

 

 

Maybe Genii did all of this only to increase Enstone's value and sell it well ? I dont know...

Edited by Alburaq, 07 December 2013 - 14:35.

[boldhakka]

Lotus seem to have asked for the first test at Jerez to be pushed out by a week. Not too positive, but not a harbinger of doom either. 

[DogEarred]

The engine will of course be Renault. Sorting out details & contracts takes time, especially with large companies such as Renault.

Several lesser sponsors have been holding on to see the outcome of the 'Quantum' deal. Altough PDVSA have signed up, that does not preclude the Quantum offer at all. That deal could still go ahead but for Lotus to walk away is not so simple, with various legalities needed to be gone through & still allowing for the chance of it succeeding.

If a car is several days behind schedule (as is the case with other teams), that can normally be recovered by hard work, extra hours & money. The problem they likely have is the overspend from this year leading to uncreditworthness, late & non payments to suppliers, who will not deal with them until debts are cleared. Also frequent late payments to staff have I'm sure, contributed to loss of personell who will not be replaced.

A strict & more credible budget is in place for next year but will obviously affect the development programme. By all accounts the theoretical figures & targets for the car are good.

A simulator is just that - you can make it do what you want within reason. So a useful amount of information can be gleaned, the limits being programming time/manpower & cost.

They will definately loose out though, by missing the the Pirelli tyre test.

[eronrules]

lotusf1 drivers visits the factory   ... press briefing in front of 'Fire Exit' sign   ... can it be the indication of the things to come in 2014   ???

 

 

p.s EB doesn't look amused ... unlike his driver ... just sayin. 

[charly0418]

When we get this synchronicity between the behaviour of the car on the track and in the simulator, we can change the focus to the car of next year

 

 

What?!

[Cool Beans]

When the simulator is accurately set up and provides reliable data we can only then start focusing on testing our new car in it. Probably.

[f1engineer]

things are beginning to look much more dire every week that passes, people are continuing to leave and can join other teams without serving notice in many cases which makes them even more attractive

[Module]

I haven't heard anything from Lotus for a while now, where have you gotten the info?

[f1engineer]

you get to know people at various teams, when people move, or other people who travel

 

there has been a bleed of staff over the last 2 months and it only seems to have accelerated recently - i'm not talking about very senior people, but the bread and butter engineers who make the team tick

 

right now is a very crucial time for car build and design with design offices typically working around the clock and through the holidays so immediate departers are a big hit

[Szoelloe]

What?!

 

He quite obviously means correlation. See Ferrari last season. They brought a bunch of developments nearly every race-weekend, and most of the time they were not on the car on Sunday. New sim takes a lot of time to set up to be a useful tool with the WT and the CFD.   

[emmanuelrubi]

Unless Grosjean performs as Kimi and Maldonado performs as Grosjean assuming they can produce a car like they did last year and McLaren does a year like 2013 i dont see Lotus fighting the top teams again, more likely fighting Williams or FI (If the Merc power unit is that good) for 5th.

[DutchQuicksilver]

I fear that as well. Them falling back to the levels of 2011. Some high's, but also a lot of low's.

[Module]

From jamesallen about Kimi

 

 

Although his move to Ferrari for 2014 was one of the main stories of the year, it was sad the way things ended with Lotus. Owed something in the region of €20m, he tried to settle for around €5m and even that proved a challenge for the financially strapped outfit.

[F1Champion]

Wow, that picture of Nico through the visor makes him look almost identical to his dad....its uncanny.

[Module]

Any news on Lotus having secured engines for next season?

[emmanuelrubi]

Does the effect of not have secure an engine deal yet in anyway affects the design or future performance of the E22 or does it somehow don't have any impact at all?

[Szoelloe]

Does the effect of not have secure an engine deal yet in anyway affects the design or future performance of the E22 or does it somehow don't have any impact at all?

 

They designed the car with a Renault powertrain(I guess). If they don't have an engine deal they don't get engines. If they don't get the powertrain, there is no car too race with. Is that an impact?

[f1engineer]

Does the effect of not have secure an engine deal yet in anyway affects the design or future performance of the E22 or does it somehow don't have any impact at all?

there will be some impact, renault will have provided some numbers with regards dimensions, weight, etc. but as time has passed and as a renault engine deal has begun to look more shaky then they will have been less inclined to provide information.

 

aside from all of that the operational side of things can't be ignored and there is likely to have been no information for lotus in that regard.

[emmanuelrubi]

They designed the car with a Renault powertrain(I guess). If they don't have an engine deal they don't get engines. If they don't get the powertrain, there is no car too race with. Is that an impact?

 

I know man, what i meant to say was that since everyone knows that its going to be a Renault power unit does the guys at Renault provide them with numbers to develop a car around that size because if they do the E22 should not have any problems in terms of design it will end up with Renault providing the engines to a car that is already designed to fit it so thereby their performance should not be affected by the late engine deal.

[f1engineer]

I know man, what i meant to say was that since everyone knows that its going to be a Renault power unit does the guys at Renault provide them with numbers to develop a car around that size because if they do the E22 should not have any problems in terms of design it will end up with Renault providing the engines to a car that is already designed to fit it so thereby their performance should not be affected by the late engine deal.

 

sorry i thought that was what i answered - i think renault will have provided some numbers some time ago, more recently they won't have been providing information as freely - because of the reasons i mentioned - i dont think a renault engine deal is certain, even given the close relationship with enstone, it all depends on what budget lotus can raise

[emmanuelrubi]

sorry i thought that was what i answered - i think renault will have provided some numbers some time ago, more recently they won't have been providing information as freely - because of the reasons i mentioned - i dont think a renault engine deal is certain, even given the close relationship with enstone, it all depends on what budget lotus can raise

 

Sorry post my comment probably at the same time  , well thats true, but i don't see them with any other engine i mean they have to go for a cheap option isn't Renault the cheapest of the 3 ? but in the case they go to other option either Merc or Ferrari i think that will affect more their performance because i don't think neither of them would have provided any kind of information, i personally think that if 2014 would be more about the power units and less about the Aero which was Lotus strong point in the E21 and they are late in the deal this will affect Lotus in the fight of the constructor championship probably a year like 2011 (too bad i really like Lotus & Grosjean) sad to see Lotus going this way, lost important staff, lost Kimi's feedback, not very financially stable well at least they are healthy which is nice.

[f1engineer]

Sorry post my comment probably at the same time  , well thats true, but i don't see them with any other engine i mean they have to go for a cheap option isn't Renault the cheapest of the 3 ? but in the case they go to other option either Merc or Ferrari i think that will affect more their performance because i don't think neither of them would have provided any kind of information, i personally think that if 2014 would be more about the power units and less about the Aero which was Lotus strong point in the E21 and they are late in the deal this will affect Lotus in the fight of the constructor championship probably a year like 2011 (too bad i really like Lotus & Grosjean) sad to see Lotus going this way, lost important staff, lost Kimi's feedback, not very financially stable well at least they are healthy which is nice.

 

i'm not sure renault is the cheapest option, it may be for lotus, but i am not sure it is in general 

[Module]

I've understood that Reanoult is the most expensive of the engines, about 35 mil and have said they want a smaler amount of teams to supply ( in retrospect maybe this was a hint at Lotus paymentissues?)

 

If Lotus have for some reason not been able to pay Renault for the engines in 2013 there might be significant impact eventhou Lotus would eventualy get Renault engines as Renault probably have used some leverage to force payments.

 

It is now less than 1 month to first tests. Lotus hasn't got additional funding, as written above are letting people leave without restrictions, haven't been able to pay wages nor pay Kimi even if he was willing to take 0.25 on the dollar.

 

The problem now is that probably non will give Lotus debt anymore but will require payment in advance. Will FOM money be enough to pay past debts and secure engines? Will there be a Lotus E22?

[f1engineer]

as you say module it is worrying, even for renault as an engine manufacturer and other renault-carrying teams, albeit, probably not an issue for 2014.

 

renault will not make a profit on engines in 2014 as they had planned to unless lotus pay up and at present it doesn't seem like they are able to.

[Module]

as you say module it is worrying, even for renault as an engine manufacturer and other renault-carrying teams, albeit, probably not an issue for 2014.

 

renault will not make a profit on engines in 2014 as they had planned to unless lotus pay up and at present it doesn't seem like they are able to.

In that case you have to question when they will cut their losses by not giving support and manufacturing engines for a team that can't pay? Isn't all engines to be supplied to FIA in the middle of February?

 

It is realy wierd that F1-journos that report the smalest comment haven't written anything about this, it's like everybody is just holding their breath and nobody dares to speculate. The last articles I could find was that Quantum is coming thru, some days after Brazil.

[f1engineer]

In that case you have to question when they will cut their losses by not giving support and manufacturing engines for a team that can't pay? Isn't all engines to be supplied to FIA in the middle of February?

 

It is realy wierd that F1-journos that report the smalest comment haven't written anything about this, it's like everybody is just holding their breath and nobody dares to speculate. The last articles I could find was that Quantum is coming thru, some days after Brazil.

i'm unsure, was that just supplying engines for fia approval/seals to be applied? 

 

i think some people believe that maldonado's money will plug the gap - i don't believe that people at lotus believe that any more

[emmanuelrubi]

i'm unsure, was that just supplying engines for fia approval/seals to be applied? 

 

i think some people believe that maldonado's money will plug the gap - i don't believe that people at lotus believe that any more

 

Even the 30 m from Maldonado is a lot of money i don't think i will help them cover all the cost of having a competitive car for the whole 2014 season.

[Anders Torp]

 
It is realy wierd that F1-journos that report the smalest comment haven't written anything about this,...

Yup, that is strange.

[Shiroo]

For me, it does look a bit, that they are out of Formula 1. How you can be without engine 1 month before the 1st test where new cars are so revolutionary

[emmanuelrubi]

For me, it does look a bit, that they are out of Formula 1. How you can be without engine 1 month before the 1st test where new cars are so revolutionary

 

Well i don't see them at least this year out of F1 the rumors says that they have been working on their 2014 car since 2012 the point here is see how the dev. of the E22 goes without an engine so far and how this will benefit or affect them in their constructor fight in 2014 because even 30 m from Pastor Maldonado is a big pile of cash, they still need the money from the constructor position for 2015 and beyond, its not the same PM 30 M + 4th in the constructors prize than lets say PM 30 M + 5,6 or 7th in the constructors prize.

[Szoelloe]

For me, it does look a bit, that they are out of Formula 1. How you can be without engine 1 month before the 1st test where new cars are so revolutionary

 

Well, are they?

[DutchQuicksilver]

Why is there so much fuss about which engine Lotus will use? Of course it will be Renault. They want to keep Grosjean in F1 don't they? I seriously don't believe Lotus haven't sorted out an engine deal yet. Why should they announce a renewing of an engine deal? It would only make sense if they changed to a new supplier, which isn't the case.

[jedioriginal]

I just read an article in a Finnish magazine iltasanomat.
There was no source,but the article says that there are rumours that Lotus wont be in starting grid next year.They have lost more staff In last couple of weeks and that there still is no engine deal...

Edited by jedioriginal, 29 December 2013 - 11:10.

[Szoelloe]

I know man, what i meant to say was that since everyone knows that its going to be a Renault power unit does the guys at Renault provide them with numbers to develop a car around that size because if they do the E22 should not have any problems in terms of design it will end up with Renault providing the engines to a car that is already designed to fit it so thereby their performance should not be affected by the late engine deal.

 

Yeah, well, you have answered your own question. It's kind of obvious. Providing info for the design does not cost Renault anything. Any uncertainty between them should not have affected the design and development of the car. Enstone is kind of the home of Renault, and although it is not where the big money is coming from, I hardly think it is even a possibility that Renault will leave Lotus out in the cold concerning engines. I do think that it is on the contrary. If they will not be on the grid, it is not going to be because Renault has not supplied them, IMHO.

[f1engineer]

Why is there so much fuss about which engine Lotus will use? Of course it will be Renault. They want to keep Grosjean in F1 don't they? I seriously don't believe Lotus haven't sorted out an engine deal yet. Why should they announce a renewing of an engine deal? It would only make sense if they changed to a new supplier, which isn't the case.

 

i have information from people within the team that there is no deal yet.

 

you'll note that caterham, toro rosso and red bull all announced their engine deals with renault, 2 of them were just renewals

[Cyanide]

According to Ilta Sanomat, Lotus might not be on the grid in 2014:

 

http://www.iltasanom...8637079156.html

 

Employees, suppliers and other affiliates still waiting for their payments, with still no engine deal in place. 

Edited by Cyanide, 29 December 2013 - 11:33.

[Slackbladder]

Very very worrying, especially as lotus was one of the top four cars last year, just shows what a bad state F1 is in financially

[DutchQuicksilver]

According to Ilta Sanomat, Lotus might not be on the grid in 2014:

 

http://www.iltasanom...8637079156.html

 

Employees, suppliers and other affiliates still waiting for their payments, with still no engine deal in place. 

If this is true, surely Bernie will step in and back them financially. An attractive team like Lotus has become in the last two years can't be missed on the grid and Bernie knows that.

[santababy]

If this is true, surely Bernie will step in and back them financially. An attractive team like Lotus has become in the last two years can't be missed on the grid and Bernie knows that.

But I remember correctly Bernie said previously then he prefered 10 teams in F1.
Of course he changes according to the weather.

I think the most worrying part in no engine deal yet...

Edited by santababy, 29 December 2013 - 14:12.

[Szoelloe]

If this is true, surely Bernie will step in and back them financially. An attractive team like Lotus has become in the last two years can't be missed on the grid and Bernie knows that.

 

I don't know if Bernie cares at all, or would back them financially or not, nor if this is true at all. But if the Enstone team - in whatever guise - is not on the grid next year, it would be a huge prestige and sporting loss to F1.

Edited by Szoelloe, 29 December 2013 - 14:17.

[SealTheDiffuser]

According to Ilta Sanomat, Lotus might not be on the grid in 2014:

 

http://www.iltasanom...8637079156.html

 

Employees, suppliers and other affiliates still waiting for their payments, with still no engine deal in place. 

 

I think they wrote this article based on reading this thread.