190 replies to this topic

[Brother Fox]

Can someone explain the how and why of those blue flames?

[garagetinkerer]

I remember reading somewhere, yesterday, that the P1 had managed 6min30s, confirmed by a McLaren insider.

 

But it hardly matters. Of course it beats the Porsche, and the Top Gear test track will prove that.

First of all, all rumours suggest that it was done on slicks or near slicks.

 

Secondly, Top Gear test track will prove which car is faster around the 'ring? Sorry mate, i'm not trying to be harsh, but it is quite funny when you said it as you did.

[garagetinkerer]

Can someone explain the how and why of those blue flames?

Blue colour, if you notice the flame on a gas burner is produced when there's little wastage (hydrocarbons wise)... i'm going to assume that very little wastage is the reason that the flames are blue. They could be throwing more air in exhaust to burn the waste hydrocarbons in a more lean mix, which is usually the case to reduce emissions.

note: i know the science behind it takes all the fun away and i personally would tell you, hydrocarbons are a lie, there's a dragon in the exhaust... burps every now and then

Edited by garagetinkerer, 13 February 2014 - 02:48.

[Lemans]

Can someone explain the how and why of those blue flames?

 

From 'Car and Driver':

 

Quote:

             "When this engine is running its hottest—1796 degrees at the turbo, 1652 at the exhaust exit—the port injectors will continue to pump fuel into the cylinders when the driver lifts off the throttle. Unburned gasoline has a cooling effect on the turbo system, though once it hits the catalytic convertors, the fuel ignites and fire belches out the rear."

 

http://blog.caranddr...ut-mclarens-p1/

[Lemans]

First of all, all rumours suggest that it was done on slicks or near slicks.

 

 

 

That's not correct.....at all.

Edited by Lemans, 13 February 2014 - 02:45.

[garagetinkerer]

That's not correct.....at all.

I guess it would be safe to assume you work for McLaren to suggest it so decisively.

[Lemans]

I guess it would be safe to assume you work for McLaren to suggest it so decisively.

 

Nope. I hope to, though.

Edited by Lemans, 13 February 2014 - 02:54.

[Brother Fox]

Thanks Lemans & garagetinkerer, I was going off the very basic assumption that unburnt fuel is wasted and therefore couldnt understand why it would be running less than optimal.

Didn't know about the hydrocarbons/gas/blue part so

[garagetinkerer]

Thanks Lemans & garagetinkerer, I was going off the very basic assumption that unburnt fuel is wasted and therefore couldnt understand why it would be running less than optimal.

Didn't know about the hydrocarbons/gas/blue part so

Anytime. Glad that i could be of help. It is a funny thing, i learnt it in secondary school science (may be somewhere between 7th to 10th grade) and that was almost 2 decades ago. I had a few good teachers i guess, plus i liked chemistry.  What you see here, also happens in your road cars, just that exhaust is designed such that flames are not emitted outwardly (or the levels are sufficiently low to not cause a flame spitting spectacle ), but unburnt hydrocarbons are dealt with.

 

note: ICE (Internal Combustion Engines) are frighteningly inefficient. Read more here...

http://en.wikipedia....gine_efficiency

Edited by garagetinkerer, 13 February 2014 - 03:31.

[garagetinkerer]

Nope. I hope to, though.

I wish you luck, but could you explain how could you be so certain that it isn't slicks. As the rumours mostly suggest that the slower time was set on stock tyres, but the faster time wasn't. So unless you know someone inside, it is hard to have a confirmation of sorts.

[garagetinkerer]

McLaren P1 sure does have some competition lining up at the 'ring. Porsche drivers said they were driving well within the limits of the car. La Ferrari. Nissmo tuned GTR. New Z06 (i expect it to reduce the old Z06 time quite significantly but nowhere near the top i guess). Pagani Zonda Revolucion. Anyone knows any information on when the competition is going to try or have tried? Heck, this is one of the busiest times at the ring in recent years i think, and i sure am getting close to catching ring-worm again, a glorious, beautiful, maniacal disease... not the fungus kind, but the circuit kind

Edited by garagetinkerer, 13 February 2014 - 04:07.

[V8 Fireworks]

If you have a McLaren everybody will ask you what is that. You are the one that is interesting.

 

A Vector / Noble / Spyker etc is also rare... Does that make it good? 

 

An AC Cobra kit car with a Chevy crate engine can be built for 1/10th the cost of these supercars and people (school kids included) will drool over it, shoddy fibreglass or not.  

[V8 Fireworks]

it is about a road car and nothing to do with racing really. 

 

It is about a road car that many enthusiasts will track, and it will be benchmarked by setting a laptime at a world-famous race circuit.  I find the official Nurburgring laps fascinating but they really have to be released as a full-lap onboard footage without music.   

 

It would be interesting to send Jens out to do the lap, but last time he was there he did not even know the circuit and was not even pushing to the max in a crummy 4 cylinder hatchback for his old employer (Honda).

[mclarensmps]

I would just like to point out that Walter Rorhl alone is worth like 5-8 s/lap lol

 

If any ring test should be done, it should be done using the same tyres on both cars, and the same driver. Therefore, the test will have to be done by a third party for a real comparison. 

[thuGG]

...Pagani Zonda Revolucion...

 

This Zonda isn't a competitor to P1 since it's not road legal race car basically.

[Frankbullitt]

This car will make the Porsche look like a Beetle.

 

Only LaFerrari can hold up to it, and we should find out about that soon.

[kraduk]

its all irrelevant this is the best lap ever of the ring

[ThomFi]

According to automativ, McLaren was faster, but made a flying start and used slicks (race tires ) instead of a standing start and road tires.

 

http://www.automativ...e-id-39470.html

 

[Frankbullitt]

Im looking forward to McLaren and Ferrari going at it with these 2 things, on paper the Ferrari is fast, more power and lighter. But the McLaren has a few tricks up its sleeve as well.

 

I think Ferrari have it on the noise front, their V12s always sound beautiful.

[ThomFi]

This car will make the Porsche look like a Beetle.

 

Only LaFerrari can hold up to it, and we should find out about that soon.

 

It's not even clear that the P1 was faster then the 918 under "comparable" conditions. According to  automativ, the P1 achieved a time just under 7 minutes but was still slower than the 918.

With race tires and a flying start, -of course- the P1 was faster. This would also explain their PR work. Without communicating an "official" time, they don't have to admit, that their "comparable" time was (probably) not faster and under witch conditions the results were achieved.

[Lazy]

Nonsense, McLaren are being sly somehow on this.

[onewingedangel]

According to automativ, McLaren was faster, but made a flying start and used slicks (race tires ) instead of a standing start and road tires.

 

http://www.automativ...e-id-39470.html

 

That article is making judgements over a McLaren press statement where they said they lapped at an average in excess of 111mph - which works out at just under 7 minutes. McLaren have not said how much in excess of 111mph it was, the site is making the judgement that it must have been less than 112mph, which is somewhat obtuse.

 

McLaren don't want to release the time, just say it was under 7 minutes, so they are holding back the exact average speed.

 

That article wants to assume that by withholding information it must be a negative (in comparison to the Porsche) which is rubbish.

[ThomFi]

That article is making judgements over a McLaren press statement where they said they lapped at an average in excess of 111mph - which works out at just under 7 minutes. McLaren have not said how much in excess of 111mph it was, the site is making the judgement that it must have been less than 112mph, which is somewhat obtuse.

 

McLaren don't want to release the time, just say it was under 7 minutes, so they are holding back the exact average speed.

 

That article wants to assume that by withholding information it must be a negative (in comparison to the Porsche) which is rubbish.

 

The article takes reference to (unnamed) insiders. " Insiderkreise sprechen von einer Zeit nur sehr knapp unter der 7 Minuten Marke."

That's in no way worse, than a unnamed McLaren insider who allegedly confirmed the faster P1 times.

Although there is nothing of substance so far, McLaren times are handled as fact while other opinions are considered as nonsense.

To be recognized as a lap record, some requirements have to be met. Porsche met this requirements and that's why their lap is recognized  as a lap record.

Did McLaren meet the requirements and was faster? Thanks to McLaren, we don't know and their PR spin makes it somehow questionable.

Especially when I have to read the more or less dubious explanations, why McLaren didn't want to make the times public.

[ElDictatore]

The article takes reference to (unnamed) insiders. " Insiderkreise sprechen von einer Zeit nur sehr knapp unter der 7 Minuten Marke."

That's in no way worse, than a unnamed McLaren insider who allegedly confirmed the faster P1 times.

Although there is nothing of substance so far, McLaren times are handled as fact while other opinions are considered as nonsense.

To be recognized as a lap record, some requirements have to be met. Porsche met this requirements and that's why their lap is recognized  as a lap record.

Did McLaren meet the requirements and was faster? Thanks to McLaren, we don't know and their PR spin makes it somehow questionable.

Especially when I have to read the more or less dubious explanations, why McLaren didn't want to make the times public.

 

Well it's not like they ever said they would release the time. They didn't even hint at it. People just assumed that they will.

Obviously I would like to know myself what time and how they achieved it but eh.

[senna da silva]

I respect Chris Harris's opinion and since he's driven both on track and said that the P1 is in another league then that's good enough for me.

[rage2]

It's not even clear that the P1 was faster then the 918 under "comparable" conditions. According to  automativ, the P1 achieved a time just under 7 minutes but was still slower than the 918.

With race tires and a flying start, -of course- the P1 was faster. This would also explain their PR work. Without communicating an "official" time, they don't have to admit, that their "comparable" time was (probably) not faster and under witch conditions the results were achieved.

But everyone does a flying start for ring times, Even Porsche.    

 

[ThomFi]

But everyone does a flying start for ring times, Even Porsche.    

 

 

I don't know, but it seems you are right. The article I posted is crap in this case.

Edited by ThomFi, 14 February 2014 - 01:03.

[Brother Fox]

Well it seems someone, somewhere needs to set the conditions for the lap.

I think a standing start makes more sense for comparability

[Tapz63]

Rolling start seems fine to me. And damn that porsche is fast, brilliant lap to watch.

[thuGG]

It's not Top Gear, of course they're doing flying start.

[JRizzle86]

It's not Top Gear, of course they're doing flying start.

Whoever wrote the article on the standing start doesn't understand how timed runs are done at the ring. Pretty sure they are always flying starts. The start time of a car on the ring pales into insignificance when looked in comparison to the lap duration. 

[BiH]

One thing that doesn't make sense is LaFerrari is already being delivered to customers and not single journo test has happened.

 

 

What is Ferrari hiding?

 

When Enzo was released every journo had go with it at Fiorano etc....LaFerrari has zero tests even though deliveries are happening.

[thuGG]

One thing that doesn't make sense is LaFerrari is already being delivered to customers and not single journo test has happened.

 

 

What is Ferrari hiding?

 

When Enzo was released every journo had go with it at Fiorano etc....LaFerrari has zero tests even though deliveries are happening.

 

 

As far as I know, LaFerrari won't be shared with journos. I don't remember where I read it?

 

I think guys at top gear will find a way to borrow the car from someone like JK. But I'd like to see it in the hands of Chris Harris.

Edited by thuGG, 14 February 2014 - 15:02.

[Gorma]

I think guys at top gear will find a way to borrow the car from someone like JK. 

Do you remember what JK said when they asked for the Enzo?

 

“Yeah, if I can borrow your daughter, because it amounts to the same thing."

[thuGG]

So they will borrow it from Pink Floyd drummer, they will find a way.

[ThomFi]

Whoever wrote the article on the standing start doesn't understand how timed runs are done at the ring. Pretty sure they are always flying starts. The start time of a car on the ring pales into insignificance when looked in comparison to the lap duration. 

 

To be fair, the article talks about lap records of street legal cars, nothing else.

And indeed, you can find laptimes with a "standing start". What a "standing start" at the Nordschleife means, is explained in one of the comments at the end of the article in SportAuto.

 

http://www.sportauto...rd-4968392.html

 

It doesn't mean, in a literal sense, the car is standing still at the start-finish line, it means that the car starts immediately with the lap when crossing the start-finish line without completing one or more complete warm-up laps before the attempt,  to get a feel for the conditions.

[garagetinkerer]

This Zonda isn't a competitor to P1 since it's not road legal race car basically.

Ah yes, i realized it later.

[Frankbullitt]

Would the pagani huayra be in with this lot? Its a serious car.

[thuGG]

It is a serious car, but it doesn't stand a chance with P1, LaFerrari or 918.

[SirDennis]

Bring on La Ferrari....

[Gilles4Ever]

This is no longer discussing the topic it's now a bickering contest about supercars. It has nothing to do with racing, please take the discussion to an appropriate forum.