4040 replies to this topic

[jrwb6e]

Gintonious, on 06 Mar 2014 - 17:41, said:

"GA is not a fan of the Ferrari design"

 

Shock bloody horror!

 

It is just a coincidence that the nose scores more or less fall in line with its aesthetic value?

[Crazy Ninja]

jrwb6e, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:15, said:

The negativity is like 2012 all over again, but this time, half the teams are not quicker than Ferrari.  Too many variables in play to say Ferrari cannot compete with the frontrunners.

 

I did have a moment of panic when i read those quotes from Stefano  but I am quite optimistic this year. I'm not expecting a dominant 1-2 next weekend - just a podium finish would be great - but my overall impression from pre season testing is positive. We're only at the beginning of a very long learning process with these cars and I have plenty of faith in Ferrari to make the most of them.

[Cyanide]

Crazy Ninja, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:30, said:

I did have a moment of panic when i read those quotes from Stefano  but I am quite optimistic this year. I'm not expecting a dominant 1-2 next weekend - just a podium finish would be great - but my overall impression from pre season testing is positive. We're only at the beginning of a very long learning process with these cars and I have plenty of faith in Ferrari to make the most of them.

 

There is no reliable source he said that on TV. It's just a comment from scuderia.net, a fan-site. And to be frank, we'd hear from Autosprint, La Gazzetta or bigger newspapers if he actually stated those problems. So I'm not convinced Domenicali said anything about tyre deg or fuel consumption, nevermind an entire list of issues. 

[SpaMaster]

Crazy Ninja, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:30, said:

I did have a moment of panic when i read those quotes from Stefano  but I am quite optimistic this year. I'm not expecting a dominant 1-2 next weekend - just a podium finish would be great - but my overall impression from pre season testing is positive. We're only at the beginning of a very long learning process with these cars and I have plenty of faith in Ferrari to make the most of them.

As far as I can tell, those quotes are not from Domenicalli. It is just the Scuderia.net's version of events.

 

[Seanspeed]

FirstWatt, on 06 Mar 2014 - 07:46, said:

The theory that Ferrari is sandbagging is backed up by following:
- Andy Green of Force India is sure they are sandbagging
- Example Top Speed: In the last day, Alonso reached 339,6 km/h, way faster than the competition. The associated lap was rather slow, 1:35.509, 1.2s slower than his best 1:34.280
- Same story 2 days before: Alonso 338,5 km/h, with an associated lap of 1:40.634.

Since when has top speed ever really been a reliable indicator of laptime, though?

I mean, it shows that the engine probably isn't down on power, but what else? Toro Rosso have had great top speeds the past few years....

I need something better than that to feel good about things! lol

[Crazy Ninja]

SpaMaster, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:43, said:

As far as I can tell, those quotes are not from Domenicalli. It is just the Scuderia.net's version of events.

 

 

Cyanide, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:38, said:

There is no reliable source he said that on TV. It's just a comment from scuderia.net, a fan-site. And to be frank, we'd hear from Autosprint, La Gazzetta or bigger newspapers if he actually stated those problems. So I'm not convinced Domenicali said anything about tyre deg or fuel consumption, nevermind an entire list of issues. 

 

Ah, I see now. Thanks for the clarification   

[Enzoluis]

yr, on 06 Mar 2014 - 17:28, said:

So, in order to lose a bit in gathering data (by sandbagging) there should be some positives that would outweight that not-perfect data. This is why I am puzzled when people suspect teams of sandbagging, I can´t think even one half good reason why would teams sacrifice valuable data? The only reason doing so, is not showing your cards to rivals, right? What good does that do to you? Do all rivals stop developing their cars: "Ha, Ferrari is slow like hell, lets take a holiday, we have won already"? I don´t think so.

I just would like to know, if someone has explanation what is so worthwhile in sandbagging that teams would do it, even though it hurts their testing data?

 

Do you know italian press? If Ferrari would show to be ahead of all the teams the press would be putting SD&Com. in the Olympus of Gods and drinking for the new WDC and WCC already wan. Probably they would start a contention between Nando and Kimi  to remake the 1988 Senna- Prost.

If they would show a trully bad pace the head of half of scuderia would be asked.

Sandbbagging give the team two months of calm to work. A very good reason to sandbagging.  

[yr]

Enzoluis, on 06 Mar 2014 - 19:14, said:

Do you know italian press? If Ferrari would show to be ahead of all the teams the press would be putting SD&Com. in the Olympus of Gods and drinking for the new WDC and WCC already wan. Probably they would start a contention between Nando and Kimi  to remake the 1988 Senna- Prost.

If they would show a trully bad pace the head of half of scuderia would be asked.

Sandbbagging give the team two months of calm to work. A very good reason to sandbagging.  

Ok, you might have a point there.

Edited by yr, 06 March 2014 - 19:51.

[KnucklesAgain]

Enzoluis, on 06 Mar 2014 - 19:14, said:

Do you know italian press? If Ferrari would show to be ahead of all the teams the press would be putting SD&Com. in the Olympus of Gods and drinking for the new WDC and WCC already wan. Probably they would start a contention between Nando and Kimi  to remake the 1988 Senna- Prost.

If they would show a trully bad pace the head of half of scuderia would be asked.

Sandbbagging give the team two months of calm to work. A very good reason to sandbagging.  

 

Not a bad point.

 

@yr, I posted a Sun Tzu quote from the Art of War on the previous page or something, about deception. That was mostly jokingly, and for the record I don't think Ferrari is super quick and hides it all (though I would literally ROFL if they wipe the floor with everyone in Melbourne). But I also think the quote shows something:  humans have hidden their real strength for thousands of years in competition, and have thought very deeply about these things.

 

In war, and in sports where you have a direct opponent, there is surely a tangible advantage to be had by making the enemy think that you are weaker than you are. It seems to me that in F1 it is questionable that such an advantage exists. But then again I'm not sure that there always needs to be a tangible advantage. It might just be that it's also a  human thing to do, that it gives us a better feeling to think to have kept a little bit for when we need it, even if it makes no rational sense.

 

It was argued in this thread that sandbagging makes no sense because the competition does what it does, and your sandbagging does not influence them. I would agree to a large extent, but on the other hand  even engineers are not 100% rational. Most of us know, I would think, e.g., from sports we do ourselves, that there are times when we think we are giving it our all, but when there is close competition we nevertheless find that we can work that little bit more.

 

In F1, there seems to be the additional aspect that your perception of the closeness of the competition influences the risks you take or even maybe the amount of money you invest.

 

One unrelated thing I want to add is that your (yr's) post assumes very much that sandbagging must bring disadvantages to your own preparations. I'd say that there are surely some disadvantages, if only the mental energy you expend by complicating things, but it may be less than one might think. If, like it was suggested, they played with the official transponder and had their own timing going on, I'm sure the computer can normalize many things automatically.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 06 March 2014 - 20:17.

[PoleMan]

PIJAMAS, on 06 Mar 2014 - 17:29, said:

Domenicalli just said to an italian tv what any wise fan already realized from testing:

Did you see the interview on Italian TV, yourself, and do you happen to have a link to it? You wrote that it "just" happened, so would presume you were watching it. I ask because the comments in your post look eerily similar to another post on scuderia.net by someone on that forum. In fact, Stefano's supposed paraphrases are almost a verbatim of the views espoused in that earlier post.

Edited by PoleMan, 06 March 2014 - 20:29.

[Okyo]

PIJAMAS, on 06 Mar 2014 - 17:29, said:

Domenicalli just said to an italian tv what any wise fan already realized from testing:

Jeez, what the hell? I had an idea that they were behind Mercedes and Williams, but not that badly. Wondering where FI is compared to Ferrari, as they seemed quick.

[Massa]

Seanspeed, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:53, said:

Since when has top speed ever really been a reliable indicator of laptime, though?

I mean, it shows that the engine probably isn't down on power, but what else? Toro Rosso have had great top speeds the past few years....

I need something better than that to feel good about things! lol

 

 

if a car B is 30 km/H slower than an other car A, it's obvious that it's had a big effect on laptimes and the car B will be slower on a whole lap. We are talking about a huge km/h differential, not 5 or 10 km/h but 30.

[Massa]

PIJAMAS, on 06 Mar 2014 - 17:29, said:

Domenicalli just said to an italian tv what any wise fan already realized from testing:

 

 

I have post this maybe 3 days ago... Domenicali didn't say this today.

 

 

EDIT : http://www.thescuder...9500#post829500

http://forums.autosp...14-t/?p=6609104 ===>>> My post.

 

It was two days ago.

Edited by Massa, 06 March 2014 - 20:40.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Red27br, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:08, said:

why so much stress ?

in one week time we will know our position

i just think that the Ferrari staff are too calm if the car is really a dog.

in 2012 in the last test Pat Fray prepared the tifosi to the doom in OZ.

This time nothing.

Even Kimi is very pragmatic when things does not look good.

This time he says car is ok.

So let's wait and see.

This. Has Domenicali driven the car? No. Only Alonso and Raikkonen can tell anything about it, and they aren't that negative about the car. I've heard Alonso much more negative about last year's car more than once and he finished runner up in that one.

 

I'm sure Ferrari will be there or thereabouts. Maybe not in Melbourne, but over the course of the season they will surely finish top three in the championship.

[study]

Seanspeed, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:53, said:

Since when has top speed ever really been a reliable indicator of laptime, though?I mean, it shows that the engine probably isn't down on power, but what else? Toro Rosso have had great top speeds the past few years....I need something better than that to feel good about things! lol

Correct me if I'm wrong but to my mind, two top speed cars that spring to mind was

Arrows and force India

[FirstWatt]

Massa, on 06 Mar 2014 - 20:33, said:

I have post this maybe 3 days ago... Domenicali didn't say this today.
 
 
EDIT : http://www.thescuder...9500#post829500
http://forums.autosp...14-t/?p=6609104 ===>>> My post.
 
It was two days ago.

But what this guy states is no more than speculation, he just writes it as it would be the new evangelism.

[Massa]

DutchQuicksilver, on 06 Mar 2014 - 20:52, said:

This. Has Domenicali driven the car? No. Only Alonso and Raikkonen can tell anything about it, and they aren't that negative about the car. I've heard Alonso much more negative about last year's car more than once and he finished runner up in that one.

 

I'm sure Ferrari will be there or thereabouts. Maybe not in Melbourne, but over the course of the season they will surely finish top three in the championship.

 

Domenicali can say things about the car, be serious.

Edited by Massa, 06 March 2014 - 21:42.

[FirstWatt]

Seanspeed, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:53, said:

Since when has top speed ever really been a reliable indicator of laptime, though?

I mean, it shows that the engine probably isn't down on power, but what else? Toro Rosso have had great top speeds the past few years....

I need something better than that to feel good about things! lol

You are partially quoting my translation of the AMuS article. Just to clarify, it's not my statement. You have to ask AMuS....

Btw, you have to read it in context. If they reach a higher top speed, one can assume that they are unleashing their power. So why don't the quick times come together with the top speed laps? I do not think that they can reduce downforce and therefore drag by such a big amount to increase top speed by 10%, without changing the rear wing.

[mzvztag]

We are in deep s**t.
Very deep. At least in comparison with the Mercedes-powered teams.

Edited by mzvztag, 06 March 2014 - 21:56.

[Borko]

Maybe some optimistic stuff should be posted as well. For example, James Allen thinks Ferrari has the second or third fastest car. In his opinion, Mercedes has the fastest car, followed by Williams and Ferrari. He said that maybe Williams is a little bit faster at the moment, but it could change in Melbourne, because people from Ferrari said they'll be bringing a lot of upgrades for Australia.

[nuripoko]

Kimi "There is a lot of talk outside about problems, but inside the team we have a very good feeling"

 

        "We have to be optimistic,We're in a changeable time now and we have many things coming in F1 with a big regulations change,

         but I think we are quite well prepared."

 

 

 

Don't worry. Everything will be okay.  The season has not even started yet.  

[caccamolle]

Guys, feel free to dream on with the sandbragging giant bs invention. But it is a bit tiring to read pages and pages of "I believe they are sandbagging" oh god "I don't believe they are sandbagging".

Based upon the tests we are 3d. See you in Australia. Sandbags !!!!

[redbarron]

I don't know if anybody thinks we are sandbagging and will be miles ahead of everyone in Melbourne. I'm just happy to see some posts in recent times have been more positive. I think if we can start as 2nd or 3rd fastest car then that is a pretty good result considering the upheaval of regulations. Hopefully Ferrari can finally make ground with parts this year, if the wind tunnel is finally fixed!

[aray]

Cyanide, on 06 Mar 2014 - 18:38, said:

There is no reliable source he said that on TV. It's just a comment from scuderia.net, a fan-site. And to be frank, we'd hear from Autosprint, La Gazzetta or bigger newspapers if he actually stated those problems. So I'm not convinced Domenicali said anything about tyre deg or fuel consumption, nevermind an entire list of issues. 

no sensible guy would say so much negatives about a 'project' he himself leads,that too before any materialization..

Domenicalli is not such fool...it was totally fictional...

Edited by aray, 07 March 2014 - 04:05.

[Cyanide]

caccamolle, on 07 Mar 2014 - 01:21, said:

Guys, feel free to dream on with the sandbragging giant bs invention. But it is a bit tiring to read pages and pages of "I believe they are sandbagging" oh god "I don't believe they are sandbagging".

Based upon the tests we are 3d. See you in Australia. Sandbags !!!!

 

Oh thank God. It is a bit tiring reading your non-sense as well. 

[jstrains]

mzvztag, on 06 Mar 2014 - 21:54, said:

We are in deep s**t.
Very deep. At least in comparison with the Mercedes-powered teams.

We had no experience with building these engines, I think it is a success. Just have a look at Renault, who I thought would master building is engine on par with Mercedes

[LarsB]

Do Renault and Mercedes have experience building these engines? Yes they have passenger cars fitted with turbo engines, but Fiat's/Alfa's also have downsized engines for a couple of years now. But I don't think the T-Jet engines have a lot in common with the new F1 engines. Same for the TCe Renault engines and Mercedes turbo's...

[Lazy]

Massa, on 06 Mar 2014 - 20:32, said:

if a car B is 30 km/H slower than an other car A, it's obvious that it's had a big effect on laptimes and the car B will be slower on a whole lap. We are talking about a huge km/h differential, not 5 or 10 km/h but 30.

Not at all, very easy to make your car 30kmh faster on the straights by taking DF off, but there's a reason top teams don't do it.

 

If the reported fuel issues are true then removal of DF is a way to save fuel with the by product of high speeds on the straights.

 

I'm not buying the slow - fast - slow theory because, if you do that, you're giving the car a breather every 1/3 of a lap and so not properly stress testing it.

[HPT]

I agree with some of the posters here that high top speed means absolutely nothing in terms of lap times. RBR used to have the worst top speeds but the quickest car, and sometimes by far. I also remember Montoya lost his rear wing after being bumped by Pizzonia in Sepang on the opening lap back in 2003) and his top speed was recorded at 350kph at the back straight or something like that. Needless to say he was also way slower around the lap than cars with their rear wings attached.

Edited by HPT, 07 March 2014 - 07:53.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Are you sure about that? How would the car be able (gearing-wise) to reach 350km/h when the estimated top speed should be around 310?

 

Of course, your point is 100% valid - I was just questioning the Montoya incident.

Edited by Hellenic tifosi, 07 March 2014 - 07:56.

[JeePee]

nuripoko, on 07 Mar 2014 - 00:33, said:

Kimi "There is a lot of talk outside about problems, but inside the team we have a very good feeling"

 

        "We have to be optimistic,We're in a changeable time now and we have many things coming in F1 with a big regulations change,

         but I think we are quite well prepared."

 

 

 

Don't worry. Everything will be okay.  The season has not even started yet.  

Did he really say that?

Wow. My swing-o-meter is back in green.

[Gorma]

JeePee, on 07 Mar 2014 - 07:59, said:

Did he really say that?

Wow. My swing-o-meter is back in green.

Sounds more like the PR department.

[Cyanide]

Call me naive, but I'd rather believe Kimi than a random poster on some site saying Domenicali said some stuff on Italian TV, without providing a link, mentioning the channel or the source, and without the news hitting some other sites as well. 

 

Yeah, I met Domenicali personally in Maranello today and over a pint of beer he told me the car is in fact a tractor they're using to plow their fields behind the factory. 

[HPT]

Hellenic tifosi, on 07 Mar 2014 - 07:55, said:

Are you sure about that? How would the car be able (gearing-wise) to reach 350km/h when the estimated top speed should be around 310?

 

Of course, your point is 100% valid - I was just questioning the Montoya incident.

 

Yeah I remember the figure quite clearly as I was a bit shocked when I first saw it. I think it's possible because the V10s back in those days weren't rev-limited.

[Cyanide]

PitLaneTalk ‏@KomivesP  31s

Ferrari were running the ERS at 120hp capacity instead of the full 160 in Bahrain. They're unable to control the full power boost right now.

 

PitLaneTalk ‏@KomivesP  28s

Montezemolo says it's a software issue, which should be solved by Melbourne. Ferrari are also bringing various upgrades.. #F1 #Formula1

Edited by Cyanide, 07 March 2014 - 11:08.

[Markn93]

I know that sounds bad but that's actually pretty promising for Ferrari.  Once they sort it it'll improve pace and consumption. 

[Rikhart]

PIJAMAS, on 06 Mar 2014 - 17:29, said:

Domenicalli just said to an italian tv what any wise fan already realized from testing:

No he did not say that.

 

Thats a compilation of rumours, only the "mercedes and williams in front" part did he actually say.

[Enzoluis]

Rikhart, on 07 Mar 2014 - 11:29, said:

No he did not say that.

 

Thats a compilation of rumours, only the "mercedes and williams in front" part did he actually say.

 

I was thinking that what pijamas report is a list of points to improve made in order to execute a development plan. If I were in charge of improve the car I would ask each driver/engeneer which do you want to improve, make a list that will look like the reported by pijama and start to prioritize the tasks to do.

I know I´too optimistic.

[CrashPad]

People should realize that in Melbourne there is a good chance that the outright fastest car of the grid won't win the race, even if it is reliable.

It's gonna take some damn smart driving and a cool head. For such a race, there are no better drivers than Kimi and Fernando.

 

So chill the **** down and see what happens.

[Ncedi]

Cyanide, on 07 Mar 2014 - 10:59, said:

 

PitLaneTalk ‏@KomivesP  31s

Ferrari were running the ERS at 120hp capacity instead of the full 160 in Bahrain. They're unable to control the full power boost right now.

 

 

 

I know enough about vehicles to know that this makes a difference but can anyone (more qualified than me) quantify this in terms of lap time? Are we talking closing the gap to Mercedes and Williams significantly?

Edited by Ncedi, 07 March 2014 - 11:56.

[SCUDmissile]

nuripoko, on 07 Mar 2014 - 00:33, said:

Kimi "There is a lot of talk outside about problems, but inside the team we have a very good feeling"

 

        "We have to be optimistic,We're in a changeable time now and we have many things coming in F1 with a big regulations change,

         but I think we are quite well prepared."

 

 

 

Don't worry. Everything will be okay.  The season has not even started yet.  

 

Kimi you leg. Keeping calm while everyone

 

 

I remember when Ferrari brought the F2008 to Melbourne and it was the quickest car there. McLaren was third fastest behind BMW. Lewis in the McLaren won the race with both Ferraris DNF in a crazy race (which could happen again this year with the questions about reliability.)

Or 2010, where the RB6 was the fastest car of all in Bahrain, but Ferrari got the 1-2....

[Cyanide]

It was estimated Mercedes has a 45hp advantage at the moment over others, now it seems like a real possibility. 

 

I'm not sure how much that accounts for - probably around a second per lap, other things unchanged, maybe less. Ferrari must have ran a low downforce config to post that top speed though, as I can't imagine how else they would it with a 40hp deficit. 

Edited by Cyanide, 07 March 2014 - 12:50.

[Ferrari2183]

At this stage it's useless to speculate... The Australian GP is nearly upon us.

[ApexMouse]

No way is 45hp a second a lap. Half of that at most. 

Renault got their V8 reliability upgrade because they were ostensibly 40hp down. It's not like all of their cars were down the back of the field. 

[fabr68]

I have a feeling a lot of the new wave of Ferrari fans will be massively dissapointed.

[midgrid]

It's encouraging how the Ferrari engine deficit has gone done from 100 bhp last year to 75 bhp before the final test and now only 45 bhp. Should be 0 or even negative by Melbourne!

[Cyanide]

Actually, looking at the photos of the F14T, there's no evidence at all that a low downforce config was used. All the rear wings they used were of a high downforce specification. 

[ApexMouse]

With huge gurneys on them.

[Tosh]

What happened to the turbo shielding fiasco? Last news I read were that they were strengthening the turbo.

 

edit: replace news with RUMOURS

Edited by Tosh, 07 March 2014 - 16:30.

[kimister]

nuripoko, on 07 Mar 2014 - 00:33, said:

Kimi "There is a lot of talk outside about problems, but inside the team we have a very good feeling"

 

        "We have to be optimistic,We're in a changeable time now and we have many things coming in F1 with a big regulations change,

         but I think we are quite well prepared."

 

 

 

Don't worry. Everything will be okay.  The season has not even started yet.  

 

Sorry , but this is not a new statement and it was even before tests during launch of F14T . By the way it was Alonso , not Kimi according to F1.com. Not sure whether Alonso thinks same way still 

 

"We have to be optimistic," Alonso told the media following Saturday’s launch of Ferrari’s new F14 T car. "There is no sign to be pessimistic. We're in a changeable time now and we have many things coming in F1 with a big regulations change, but I think we are quite well prepared for that. ''

 

http://www.formula1....14/1/15417.html