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Irvine vs Rubens


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#1 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 02:02

Hi guys, a chap on the main forum posted this below, and the mods felt it should be moved here. For some reason the guy did not move the topic here, but as I am interested in some analysis from this, I thought I would post the subject here.

 

He wrote

 

"I was watching the the F1 legends episode about Eddie Irvine yesterday. He keept saying that he beat all off his teamates exept Schumacher, specifically mentioning Rubens. I looked this up and learnt that he was beat by Rubens in every season they had in the same team.

I didn't watch F1 back then but did he suffer from bad luck or sometIng else that justefies his statements? "

 

On blank stats I noticed they were fairly equal in qualifying, but I am still interested in hearing from those who witnessed this head to head at the time.

 

Any feedback would be lovely.

 

Thanks.



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#2 MattPete

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 03:37

Irvine sucked.  That is why he was hired by Ferrari.

 

At the time, I was shocked that he was hired by Ferrari over Rubens.  In retrospect, it is obvious (e.g. Salo at Hockenheim): Schumacher did not want any competition.  Rubens would have provided some competition, hence, Irvine was hired.



#3 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 10:03

"Hi guys, a chap on the main forum..."

 

Surely, this IS the main forum.  :)

 



#4 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 13:34

  Rubens would have provided some competition, hence, Irvine was hired.

Yeah, but Rubens was hired later on and was hardly fierce competition for Schumi.

 

Irvine amazingly in 1999 scored more points than Schumi when you added up the points of races they both participated in (that is discounting the points Irvine scored when Schumi got injured). Of course there were reasons for that with Schumi instructed to support Irvine in the latter stages of 1999, and a whole lot of luck.

 

Rubens was better, but Irvine was not as bad as you make out



#5 Risil

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 13:51

Yeah, but Rubens was hired later on and was hardly fierce competition for Schumi.

 

World championships with Irvine as teammate: 0
World championships with Barrichello as teammate: 5

 

Perhaps it was the competition Michael needed to thrive? Once Schumacher started to hit his stride in 1993 or so I don't think anyone other than Rubens ever demonstrated they were capable of beating him in a fair fight.


Edited by Risil, 21 December 2013 - 13:52.


#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 13:58

Irvine amazingly in 1999 scored more points than Schumi when you added up the points of races they both participated in (that is discounting the points Irvine scored when Schumi got injured). Of course there were reasons for that with Schumi instructed to support Irvine in the latter stages of 1999, and a whole lot of luck.


Sorry, not so. Irvine scored 40 points to Schumacher's 44 in races in which both participated. Don't forget that as Schumacher didn't take the second start in the British GP he was officially a non-participant.

#7 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 14:02

World championships with Irvine as teammate: 0
World championships with Barrichello as teammate: 5

 

Perhaps it was the competition Michael needed to thrive? Once Schumacher started to hit his stride in 1993 or so I don't think anyone other than Rubens ever demonstrated they were capable of beating him in a fair fight.

I think Ferrari just improved, Schumi was just as a incredible talent in 1993-1999, as he was from 2000-2003 in my opinion.

 

Sorry, not so. Irvine scored 40 points to Schumacher's 44 in races in which both participated. Don't forget that as Schumacher didn't take the second start in the British GP he was officially a non-participant.

I was counting the British race, if those are the rules, than fair enough. 44-40 is still pretty close though, even if they were worlds apart in talent.



#8 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 14:04

 Once Schumacher started to hit his stride in 1993 or so I don't think anyone other than Rubens ever demonstrated they were capable of beating him in a fair fight.

I disagree, but that is a debate for another day, and something that is pretty hard to quantify.

 

I can think of 3 names in the period of 1993-2006 who I think could give Schumi a hard time in a fair fight.



#9 George Costanza

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 15:10

I disagree, but that is a debate for another day, and something that is pretty hard to quantify.

 

I can think of 3 names in the period of 1993-2006 who I think could give Schumi a hard time in a fair fight.

I can think of four.... Ayrton Senna, Mika Hakkinen (in Schu's prime years, I think only Ayrton would have beat him in equal cars, whereas Mika needed quite a fast car, such as 1998-1999 McLaren to beat Schumi, however, IMO MIka's BEST driving season was 2000 when he did NOT win the championship on equal terms with Schumacher). And the other two would be Fernando Alonso and Kimi (in Schu's late career).

 

Yes, Mika drove brilliantly in 1998, but his car was over 1 second faster than anyone else. (in some cases, two seconds). 1999 was actually a bad year for Mika, perhaps being that Michael was hurt that season he did not exactly raised his game whereas Eddie Irvine DID...

 

I think Rubens would have been WDC had Michael was hurt like he was in 1999.  But, Mika's 2000 season, as well as Michael's 2000 was among the very best driving in F1 has seen in history.

 

Given EQUAL cars, I think only three drivers would beat or equal Michael: Ayrton Senna OR Alain Prost OR Fernando Alonso.


Edited by George Costanza, 21 December 2013 - 15:20.


#10 George Costanza

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 15:17

World championships with Irvine as teammate: 0
World championships with Barrichello as teammate: 5

 

Perhaps it was the competition Michael needed to thrive? Once Schumacher started to hit his stride in 1993 or so I don't think anyone other than Rubens ever demonstrated they were capable of beating him in a fair fight.

 

Do it the other way around, Michael would still be the champion.



#11 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 15:21

I can think of four.... Ayrton Senna, Mika Hakkinen (in Schu's prime years, I think only Ayrton would have beat him in equal cars, whereas Mika needed quite a fast car, such as 1998-1999 McLaren to beat Schumi, however, IMO MIka's BEST driving season was 2000 when he did NOT win the championship on equal terms with Schumacher). And the other two would be Fernando Alonso and Kimi (in Schu's late career).

 

Given EQUAL cars, I think only TWO drivers would beaf Michael: Ayrton and Alain Prost.

:up:

 

I actually was going to miss out Alonso, but yeah there is a case for him as well, based on 2005-2006. 

 

Anyway, Rubens vs Irvine? Come on guys lets have some statistical analysis, or some observation from those who watched at the time, what were the key findings from that head to head,



#12 George Costanza

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 15:23

Eddie or Rubens...

 

I think Rubens was a BIT better than Eddie largely due to his wet weather driving which was very good.... Wet weather was Rubens thing.


Edited by George Costanza, 21 December 2013 - 15:24.


#13 midgrid

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 15:40

Barrichello was usually ahead of Irvine in 1994 and comfortably outscored him.

 

In 1995, Irvine was much stronger relative to Barrichello, especially in the first half of the season.  Barrichello had some problems with his braking technique which took until the second half of the season to solve, so Irvine was usually the faster Jordan driver up to this point, but they were more evenly matched thereafter.  The cars were very unreliable during this season, however, so their final points totals (Barrichello 11, Irvine 10) are not particularly helpful in assessing their relative performances, as both lost several good finishes due to car failures.  I think that at the time, the general impression was that Irvine had the more impressive season overall (e.g. Autocourse put him ninth in the Top Ten, with Barrichello not featuring), ad that his speed had out-psyched the previously ascendant Barrichello, whose career subsequently stalled in the midfield for several seasons until he was signed by Ferrari for 2000.

 

Irvine's Ferrari record is of course inferior to Barrichello's, but in my opinion this is almost entirely down to the fact that the cars he drove - the F310, F310B, F300 and F399 - whilst competitive, were not in the same class as the F1-2000, F2001, F2002, F2003-GA, F2004 and F2005, most of which were the pacesetters of their respective seasons.  I think that Barrichello would also have struggled to produce consistent results as Schumacher's team-mate in the late 1990s, and that Irvine would have been a far more dependable number two driver had he been with the team in the early 2000s.  Overall, however, I would rate Barrichello slightly above Irvine due to the longevity and consistency of his career, and I also got the impression that he was a little faster than Irvine in 1995 when he was happy with the car.



#14 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 15:44

Thanks midgrid, for that informative post  :up:



#15 Risil

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 17:11

I disagree, but that is a debate for another day, and something that is pretty hard to quantify.

 

I can think of 3 names in the period of 1993-2006 who I think could give Schumi a hard time in a fair fight.

 

Apologies, I meant drivers who were Schumacher's teammate. I can think of a few drivers from other teams who gave him a hard time too. :)

 

Brundle sometimes had the better of Michael Schumacher but MS was still learning and improving in '92. There were times in 2001-4 when Barrichello was simply quicker than Michael, I don't remember that ever happening with Patrese, Herbert, Irvine or Massa.


Edited by Risil, 21 December 2013 - 17:12.


#16 sennafan24

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 17:20

Apologies

None needed.

 

:up: For noticing that Brundle actually did not too bad in 1992, I only discovered that myself recently when I watched the 1992 season review back.



#17 Ben H

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 19:24

I think it was in a recent 'lunch with...' in Motor Sport Rubens said he had been experimenting with left foot braking and had been leaving his foot slightly on the brake pedal on the straights - he had consistently been a few kph slower than Irvine on the straights with the same settings and they hadn't understood why! Once it was sorted he did get better relative to Irvine!

Brundle was outstanding in 1992 - bested by Schumacher in Qualfying but was often bang on his pace in the races - although whether he could have replicated that in the stop start sprint refuelling era that Schumacher mostly raced in would be open to question....still, until Nico Rosberg post 2010 for my money easily the most competitive teammate for Schumacher (altho with an honourable mention to Massa second half of 2006)

#18 mfd

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 14:04

I think you've missed quite a significant point why Irvine went to Ferrari when he did & not Barrichello



#19 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 00:31

Both Irvine and Rubens were/ are decent operators, both at [a minority] times were faster than MS. And were held back by the team. Both were classified No2 so both got second best. Though 2nd best was still better than most got.
Brundle and others too were on the pace, qualifying though was the problem.