21 replies to this topic

[T54]

http://www.russoands...i-Tipo-61/61982

 

A few less lies this time. 

[Catalina Park]

I could have guessed it was going to be listed again after the PR exercise in the last thread.
 

[RA Historian]

Rustle and Steal tidied up its original description, but it still is misleading. Whatever they say, it is NOT 2459, as that car ceased to exist in 1962.

[Catalina Park]

Notice the way it says "an original" not "the original" when it comes to the genuine parts.

[Lola5000]

Having not read the last thread in full..what part of the car is original ?

Edited by Lola5000, 22 December 2013 - 03:29.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Great Thread Title T54!

As Catalina says there is original and there is original to 2459 and the absence of specifics is pretty damning and I think answers your question Lola5000.

[Lola5000]

Great Thread Title T54!

As Catalina says there is original and there is original to 2459 and the absence of specifics is pretty damning and I think answers your question Lola5000.

Ah Ok,..built around a chassis plate

Edited by Lola5000, 22 December 2013 - 05:38.

[Lee Nicolle]

It seems to be a neat replica.

[Catalina Park]

Ah Ok,..built around a chassis plate

Except they didn't have a chassis plate so they made a new one and kept the old digits.

[Andrew Fellowes]

I can just cope with the use of the word resurrected as it implies death, but rebuilt? How do you rebuild something that does not exist?

[Lola5000]

Except they didn't have a chassis plate so they made a new one and kept the old digits.

i could understand if a chassis plate was involved and it was say a F5000 being retubbed.

 

Maybe some local could buy it and run it in VHRR regularity events with a huge "R" on its side?

[arttidesco]

Having not read the last thread in full..what part of the car is original ?

 

"original parts which include the transaxle tower (differential case), front hubs, rear lights, repeater lights, rev counter, ignition switch/light switch, indicator switch, and starter button."

 

In paragraph five they talk about the resurrection and then on paragraph six they talk about 2459 as if it was the real thing being granted an HTP by the FIA.

 

Nuts, hope who ever buys this vehicle sees through all this smoke and mirrors enjoys it for what it is and pays accordingly.

[Catalina Park]

They never actually say that the original parts are from 2459, they just say that they are original parts.

[D-Type]

It intrigues me the way the writers gloss over the fact that the real 2459 was a Tipo 61, whilst this "restoration", using the old digits and precious little else, has a 2-litre engine which makes it a Tipo 60 re-creation not a Tipo 61 re-creation.

As far as I can glean from the various posts here and elsewher this is a faithful, diligent and conscientious re-creation of a Tipo 60/61 using some genuine components. But it is not and no amount of 'spin' can make it the entity known as "2459" which was destroyed.

I have no axe to grind with those who did the work, nor with those who have been, shall we say, misled into writing about the car, but I do feel that those selling the car and trying to claim that it is Maserti Tipo 61 no 2459 are coming extremely close to attempting a criminal deception or fraud. 

I am not a lawyer so I don't know the correct legal term, but I think I do know what a barrel of 'long past its sell-by fish would smell like.  In a word - "fishy"

[Sharman]

That about sums it up Duncan, I believe the ruling by one of the more sensible members of the judiciary was

 

that the vendor of past its sell-by date fish is not forced to shout "stinking fish", he is allowed to shout "fish",  but must not shout "fresh fish"

[Lola5000]

Why not just advertise it for what it is...threads like this thus would not begin and the car would sell for what it is..

 

I'd own it in a flash at the correct price of a replica ,then i could run in VHRR events with a huge "R" on the side in regularity events ,against all types of Sports Sedans ect.

[Jagjon]

How do these replicas obtain the FIA passport? Just curious as my late friend's  genuine original Abarth car   of 1963  is currently advertised in Brescia with chassis id, FIA papers & even the original registration which the car was  on when imported to the UK in the 1960's.

It has been here in UK for  near 50 years & for the last  33 years in the same garage where it is today, & it has  not moved in over 20years.

What can you do about such a fake in Italy that does not involve the original car's owner in expensive litigation to prove they own the original?

It seems the FIA dish out these papers without any enquiry as to if such a car is correct, there seems enough knowledge amongst the clubs, registers & on here to weed out the crooks faking cars.

Perhaps people assume if a car hasn't been seen for a decade or two   that it must no longer exist & they are OK in making a fake & claiming it  to be the original with or without conjuring up a few  likely parts to support their miserable story.

There is too much of it going on in my opinion & what responsibility does the MSA & FIA have in perpetuating these fakes?

[Andrew Fellowes]

How do these replicas obtain the FIA passport?

It is quite legal for a replica to have FIA HTP documents, all it guarantees is that it is to correct specifications. It specifically does not guarantee history and says as much.
The contentious part though is the one question that says year of build asserted.

Edited by Andrew Fellowes, 26 December 2013 - 03:00.

[Catalina Park]

Part of the deception is to create the myth that FIA papers = authenticity. 

[Lola5000]

Part of the deception is to create the myth that FIA papers = authenticity. 

Well said...and so true.

 

How often ,do you here that in an add...all the time.

[Supersox]

It is quite legal for a replica to have FIA HTP documents, all it guarantees is that it is to correct specifications. It specifically does not guarantee history and says as much.
The contentious part though is the one question that says year of build asserted.

Not only the year Andrew but also it clearly indicates on the HTP the chassis number without any qualification.

This number is then accepted/ratified both by the ASN proposing the HTP to the FIA-for the FIA checks and agrees every HTP-and de facto the FIA accepts the chassis number as well.

My feeling is that a court/judge would be much challenged to decide whether the rider/disclaimer at the top of the paperwork overides their acceptance of the specified car four lines later.

The irony is that the chassis number has -and never has had- any relevance at all in  a sporting context.All documentation relating to a car at any motor sport event refers to the number on the side of the car.

[Andrew Fellowes]

True, as I understand it the original style HTP  papers had no reference to chassis number for just this very circumstance, this was changed to help quick I.D. thus immediately opening up the system to abuse. It also puts unfair pressure on the inspector to verify history, that isn't right, but the horse has bolted.

 

The best story I've heard about chassis plates was Brabham BT23C-6, left South Africa in 1970 to be repaired in the UK and returned as a brand new Formula Ford chassis number BT23C-6.