64 replies to this topic

[MustangSally]

Grosjean was causing chaos near the front in 2012. By the end of 2013 he was turning similar starting positions into regular podiums. Your claim that their starting positions have helped them out last year is totally wrong I am afraid.

 

I think it's slightly different for both drivers.

 

It hasn't helped Pastor because he never could drive on a crowded track. His whole GP2 history is one of winning feature races from the front and crashing out when the grid was reversed. Williams admit to calling him in when he was in traffic, even if it was not the ideal pit stop window. You couldn't guarantee what might happen if you left him out.

 

On the other hand, he wasn't much better at mid grid. In 2012, he had some 15 top ten starts and only converted three (I think, from memory) into points finishes. 

 

'First lap nutcase' had rather different problems . . . like the start. But there's at least one race where he recovered well from a low qualifying position.

[Dolph]

The jury is still out on Grojean. Half of a decent season does not make a top driver.imo

RG is the team leader this year, and with no Kimi, Boullier, or Allison there we'll see what he's made of.

 

I agree. Without the last year's Team Manager and Technical Director we will see how Romain handless those obligations as well.

 

 

Or what was the point of your post? Let's weaken the team to see what he can do or lets put him in Caterham to prove himself? What on earth are you talking about!?
 

[Burtros]

The jury is still out on Grojean. Half of a decent season does not make a top driver.imo

RG is the team leader this year, and with no Kimi, Boullier, or Allison there we'll see what he's made of.

Yes it's a pisser that Renault may be on the back foot this year. Timing is everything, and time is running out on them both.

I'd like to see RG prosper. He did show signs of improvement. Let's see how he handles things. If his arc rises I'll be the first to congratulate him.

 

You actually said;

 

'How some people rate him as one of the better drivers is beyond me. I still can't get over all of the crashes in '12.'

 

I understand half a good season does not make someone, but thats a bit of a climb down from your original position. A bad start in F1 does not always 'make' a driver either.

 

By equal standards, hes got a hell of a task this year by the looks of it. I hope people set the bar at a level that is appropriate.

[Nemo1965]

Grosjean was causing chaos near the front in 2012. By the end of 2013 he was turning similar starting positions into regular podiums. Your claim that their starting positions have helped them out last year is totally wrong I am afraid.

 

All threads like this show is how some people are simply incapable of reforming their opinions of a driver. The dude with the Stewart car in his avatar is another. Did you both sleep through 2013?

 

Both deserve their seats on the F1 grid IMHO... neither deserve the situation that Lotus finds itself in.

 

 

Aha, 'some people'... an argument ad hominem. Nice. But I won't bite. Here we go, I looked up Romains startline crashes last year.

 

First: Australian Grand Prix 2012, qualified 3rd, fell back to 6th during the start, crashed with... Maldonado... So crashed while in 6th position.

 

Second: British Grand Prix qualified 10th, Promoted to 9th (because of Hulkenbergs penalty) crash at the start. So crash while in 9th position.

 

Third: Spa: qualified 9th, Crashed. In 5th position, but that was because upside down in the air passing people in front of him (and under him, like Alonso). 

 

Fourth Singapore (When Mark Webber called him the starting nutter or something): qualified 8th. Had crash in that position or there abouts.

 

Fifth: Abu Dabi: qualified 8th, Had crash incident at the start.

 

 

So my memory served me exactly right: when in 2012 Grosjean crashed a lot, he did those crashes when he had to start between 5th and 12th place. That year, when he qualified either ahead and had a good start, or qualified further back, he drove clean races.

 

 

 

So your assertion that Grosjean was causing chaos near the front in 2012 is incorrect. He was causing chaos behind the top six at the start. 

 

By the way: I am inclined to change my opinion about Grosjean. I am not inclined to change my mind about Maldonado. Yet. 

Edited by Nemo1965, 03 February 2014 - 21:22.

[Burtros]

Aha, 'some people'... an argument ad hominem. Nice. But I won't bite. Here we go, I looked up Romains startline crashes last year.

 

First: Australian Grand Prix 2012, qualified 3rd, fell back to 6th during the start, crashed with... Maldonado... So crashed while in 6th position.

 

Second: British Grand Prix qualified 10th, Promoted to 9th (because of Hulkenbergs penalty) crash at the start. So crash while in 9th position.

 

Third: Spa: qualified 9th, Crashed. In 5th position, but that was because upside down in the air passing people in front of him (and under him, like Alonso). 

 

Fourth Singapore (When Mark Webber called him the starting nutter or something): qualified 8th. Had crash in that position or there abouts.

 

Fifth: Abu Dabi: qualified 8th, Had crash incident at the start.

 

 

So my memory served me exactly right: when in 2012 Grosjean crashed a lot, he did those crashes when he had to start between 5th and 12th place. That year, when he qualified either ahead and had a good start, or qualified further back, he drove clean races.

 

 

 

So your assertion that Grosjean was causing chaos near the front in 2012 is incorrect. He was causing chaos behind the top six at the start. 

 

By the way: I am inclined to change my opinion about Grosjean. I am not inclined to change my mind about Maldonado. Yet. 

 

All you have done is show where Grosjean was when he was crashing at the start in 2012. Its pointless without looking at 2013.

 

So what happened in 2013? Did he qualify better and not crash and thus give some credibility to your theory?

 

Or did he qualify about the same on many occasions and not crash, thus casting some pretty heavy doubt over your theory as I originally sought to do?

 

I cant find a list of his starting positions over the last two years, believe me I have tried! If you can find one then that'd be the starting point for a debate if you want one. Im willing to be proven wrong but dont think I will be.

[Clatter]

The info is available here.

 

http://www.formula1....r/2012/838.html

http://www.formula1....r/2013/838.html

[djparky]

Romain- damn just when things were starting to go so well

 

Pastor- don't care what he's thinking, just pleased he;s gone from Williams

[Burtros]

The info is available here.

 

http://www.formula1....r/2012/838.html

http://www.formula1....r/2013/838.html

 

Cheers.

 

I don't see any great differences at first glace I am afraid Nemo, clear improvement in the second half of the season but for your theory to work I'd be expecting to see plenty of first lap dramas still. Thats not been the case.

 

Hopefully Grosjean is now thinking 'thank god I have Burtros on my side, I must remember to mail him some VIP Lotus tickets to a GP as thanks'

 

And I am thinking, if that does happen, I bet I have to bring my own food and drink.....

Edited by Burtros, 03 February 2014 - 22:14.

[InSearchOfThe]

I agree. Without the last year's Team Manager and Technical Director we will see how Romain handless those obligations as well.

 

 

Or what was the point of your post? Let's weaken the team to see what he can do or lets put him in Caterham to prove himself? What on earth are you talking about!?
 

So..you agree with my statement yet don't undrestand the meaning ?

Yes. Let's wait and see how he handles being team leader by leading the team.

 

My question  to you is how did I have anything to do with making Lotus weaker and sending him to Caterham?

What the hell are YOU talking about?

[InSearchOfThe]

You actually said;

 

'How some people rate him as one of the better drivers is beyond me. I still can't get over all of the crashes in '12.'

 

I understand half a good season does not make someone, but thats a bit of a climb down from your original position. A bad start in F1 does not always 'make' a driver either.

 

By equal standards, hes got a hell of a task this year by the looks of it. I hope people set the bar at a level that is appropriate.

He's only at Lotus because Boullier got him on the cheap with TOTAL backing. As of right now, today no he's not in my top 6-8 drivers. I'm not going over '12 again so I'll wait till 2014s over then make my grade.

I can tell from your previous post that you're a fan. I don't want to use the FB word, but begging for VIP tickets says only one thing to me. Your bias the other way. And that's fine too. He's not a bank teller anymore. He's the lead driver of an F1 team. Now prove it without any excuses about finances or crackshafts or whatever.

[KingTiger]

Grosjean benefited immensely from the Renault engines EBDing and Lotus continuing development for several months after Ferrari and Merc switched to 2014, so he's only getting back what he reaped at the end of last year.

 

I don't think he was really as good as the results were at those last few races, he's maybe in the third tier of drivers beneat the level of Rosberg, Hulk, Button and Raikkonen. 

[sopa]

As for rating Grosjean, I'd say the WDCs, Rosberg and Hulkenberg have made a bigger impression so far. But Grosjean has done enough to get a rating somewhere behind them, so potentially 8th best driver on the grid. But let's see, how does this season unfold. Every year there are some blokes, whose form deteriorates, and some whose improve. Or you could say - some, whose car gets worse and some, whose car gets better.

[Burtros]

He's only at Lotus because Boullier got him on the cheap with TOTAL backing. As of right now, today no he's not in my top 6-8 drivers. I'm not going over '12 again so I'll wait till 2014s over then make my grade.

I can tell from your previous post that you're a fan. I don't want to use the FB word, but begging for VIP tickets says only one thing to me. Your bias the other way. And that's fine too. He's not a bank teller anymore. He's the lead driver of an F1 team. Now prove it without any excuses about finances or crackshafts or whatever.

 

I'll let you off based on the fact humour doesnt always come across well in writing. Just for the record, I was not being serious. It was a tounge in cheek remark about the worth of spending my time on the Internet defending people I have never met and never will, and Lotus financial situation. You have just given me a proper good laugh out 'how can they think that was serious moment????' so for that at least it was worth it.

 

I think I'll leave it after saying this since you want to try and fling mud at me whilst also seemingly back-tracking from the extreme view point you had to start with and that I disagreed with.

[garagetinkerer]

Romain- damn just when things were starting to go so well

 

Pastor- don't care what he's thinking, just pleased he;s gone from Williams

People were/ are glad that Ralf, Juan and now Pastor left Williams. You know what is common between all three men? They're the winners of last few races for Williams. While they all have their flaws, it wasn't like Williams themselves were covering themselves in glory. I like Williams, mostly i have a lot of respect for Sir Frank especially compared to some wheeler dealers.

_________________________________________________________________

 

I'm sure like most human beings they must be having their moments of weaknesses... though Romain must be glad he is getting to spend more time with his kid who was born towards end of last year.. I think Pastor would also be chuffed to spend more time with his better half..

[SealTheDiffuser]

Former race engineer: «Maldonado is underestimated.

 

http://www.microsoft...erschaetzt.html