190 replies to this topic

[OO7]

As others said, torque has increased dramatically and the gap is mostly due to aero. They will make it back up in a season or two.

In qualification trim the 2014 will also be around 50kg heavier.  I don't know what sort of lap time deficit that brings, but it is another aspect to consider.

[Oho]

F1 racing was supposed to be about driving cars on the limit of whats humanly possible!

 

That really has never been the case apart from qualifying fast laps. Even during the height of the refuel short sprint era peak of which Michael Schumacher dominated the there was no little element of playing the long game.

[OO7]

I reckon there is a bit of dick waving from a driver who says their racing car is "too slow". 

These cars are miles quicker than the machinery that the likes of Fangio, Clark and Senna drove in their day - and they're considered hero's.

I personally don't think that's the case.  The cornering and braking capabilities of an F1 car are pretty much the stand out features.  Since the introduction of the Pirelli tyres drivers have complained about driving being less physical (less of that intense level of g force cornering provided before), in 2014 with heavier cars and less aero, the situation will become even more prevalent.

 

If you were given a 1995 PC to use, you'd probably make a few negative remarks about it despite it being infinitely better than what was available in the mid 80's.  When one becomes acquainted with a good thing or something which can become intoxicating, one generally doesn't want to take a step back, so I guess you could say that the contemporary F1 driver has become corrupted by the power of downforce.

[SenorSjon]

Mercedes increased the size of the cooling outlets on the W05, and said something to the effect of things being quite tight with regard to temperature margins despite the cool Jerez temperatures.  Bahrain is said to be even more of a issue, so I don't think the teams were particularly conservative in Spain.

Mercedes (team) are known to have cooling issues since the dawn of time.

[Brandz07]

Just a thought... Alexander Rossi may be quicker in his Caterham run GP2 car than when he tests for Caterham. That's messed up.

[Hans V]

I'm not to worried about the pace, allthough it's hard to say. At Jerez they were about 5-6 Seconds behind last years pace. From what I understand noone ran the engine at anywhere near max power.  I'm sure there is a second ot two there. Then there's tyres. Didn't Pirelli run conservative tyres at the test? In that case there's at least another second in the tyres. Only a few of the teams at the test got to start on set-up work. I'd Guess the will find a second or two there as well. That is combined 4-5 Seconds. Come Australia my prediction is that they will be a second or so off last years pace.

[dau]

F1 racing was supposed to be about driving cars on the limit of whats humanly possible! these new regulations, engine power limits as a consequence of the fuel limit make the sport so much less appealing. 

 

it was one thing to improve safety, we were all for it, but its another thing all together to take the thrill and speed out of the sport.

 

disgrace.

 

fascination with this sport for me is about to completely die off. ugly narrow cars, girly drivers and now also slow. whats next? pageant shows instead of qualifying?

 

Judging by the early history of the sport, you'd think by now we would have cars with 2000 bhp that would be a huge challenge to control, ban on electric aids and just an absolute gladiator skirmish where the strongest car and driver win.... this must have actually happened in some other universe, while ours went so horribly wrong.

 

If the early history of the sport would have been anything like you described, they'd have run with 1000bhp steam engines in plywood cars with wooden wheels. Gladly that didn't happen and they pursued progress in all areas leading up to the F1 we have today. 

 

Girly drivers? Not driving on the limit of what's humanly possible? You sure you really mean the actual sport and not that Hollywood image of F1 consisting of manly men manning around in manly manmachines to awe other men?

 

Just a thought... Alexander Rossi may be quicker in his Caterham run GP2 car than when he tests for Caterham. That's messed up.

 

F1 was already faster than GP2 at Jerez and that was just the very first test, on a pretty cold and green track, with few teams turning the wick up. So what's that based on?

Edited by dau, 06 February 2014 - 10:34.

[Seanspeed]

The power units are at least 710 bhp in self sustaining mode, without using the battery. There is no drop in power from last year.

Huh? I remember reading that the engines last year were only about 700-750hp at best.

And that this year's are down to about 600hp, with the ERS providing an extra 150-180hp for portions of the lap.

[toofast]

 

F1 was already faster than GP2 at Jerez and that was just the very first test, on a pretty cold and green track, with few teams turning the wick up. So what's that based on?

 

Well, technically Caterham was slower than GP2 car in the test. 

[saudoso]

Best time where marginaly better than a GP2, didn't do the math for everyone else:

 

GP2/F1 Yas Marina Pole 2013 108.98%

F1 2014/2013 Jerez day 1: 110.45%

F1 2014/2013 Jerez day 2: 108.07%

F1 2014/2013 Jerez day 3: 106.93%

 

Benchmark Jerez time is 2013 first test.

[dau]

Well, technically Caterham was slower than GP2 car in the test. 

Sure, but that was obviously not indicative of their actual speed, but their engine problems.

[Lazy]

Huh? I remember reading that the engines last year were only about 700-750hp at best.

And that this year's are down to about 600hp, with the ERS providing an extra 150-180hp for portions of the lap.

 

It will never be just the ice though, power from the mguh, via the mguk, brings it up to 710ish, that's without the battery.

 

The battery will hardly ever be using the max 4kw, it will be spread out over the lap.

 

These are Cosworth figures, it may be that Merc and Co. will have done better than that. Indeed one Ferrari engineer has been quoted as saying 650 from the ice alone. Plus 110ish from the mguh gives 760 without any assistance from the battery.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the season people will be worrying that the cars are too fast.

[Brandz07]

If the early history of the sport would have been anything like you described, they'd have run with 1000bhp steam engines in plywood cars with wooden wheels. Gladly that didn't happen and they pursued progress in all areas leading up to the F1 we have today. 

 

Girly drivers? Not driving on the limit of what's humanly possible? You sure you really mean the actual sport and not that Hollywood image of F1 consisting of manly men manning around in manly manmachines to awe other men?

 

 

F1 was already faster than GP2 at Jerez and that was just the very first test, on a pretty cold and green track, with few teams turning the wick up. So what's that based on?

 

It's based on my reckoning that whilst the top teams were around 1.5 seconds faster than the top GP2 time and will gain more on that, if Caterham are 3-4 seconds off the pace, it's possible that it 'may' be close. For the first few races anyway..

Edited by Brandz07, 06 February 2014 - 12:15.

[Rinehart]

I personally don't think that's the case.  The cornering and braking capabilities of an F1 car are pretty much the stand out features.  Since the introduction of the Pirelli tyres drivers have complained about driving being less physical (less of that intense level of g force cornering provided before), in 2014 with heavier cars and less aero, the situation will become even more prevalent.

 

If you were given a 1995 PC to use, you'd probably make a few negative remarks about it despite it being infinitely better than what was available in the mid 80's.  When one becomes acquainted with a good thing or something which can become intoxicating, one generally doesn't want to take a step back, so I guess you could say that the contemporary F1 driver has become corrupted by the power of downforce.

 

See what you are saying. 

On the point about Pirelli however, I think what the drivers (Mark Webber specifically) said the cars were STILL a challenge and a reward at full tilt in qualifying, the problem is the Pirelli tyres didn't allow them to get near that in the race due to strategy. He said there were a few races where for reasons he was on a different strategy where he could push and that was how it should be. 

 

So on this point, the way I see it, as long as they have to conserve fuel and tyres in the races, it won't matter how quick the cars are as being on the limit is what gives them the feeling of speed. Alonso said this too. 

[Rinehart]

Well, technically Caterham was slower than GP2 car in the test. 

 

Ok well that's a spin on things then.

[bauss]

I think we should wait til Aus Qualy before we complain about how slow and whatnot..   I get a feeling the complexities of the power units means they haven't been exploited anything close to the max really yet.

[SpaMaster]

F1 racing was supposed to be about driving cars on the limit of whats humanly possible! these new regulations, engine power limits as a consequence of the fuel limit make the sport so much less appealing. 

 

it was one thing to improve safety, we were all for it, but its another thing all together to take the thrill and speed out of the sport.

 

disgrace.

 

fascination with this sport for me is about to completely die off. ugly narrow cars, girly drivers and now also slow. whats next? pageant shows instead of qualifying?

 

Judging by the early history of the sport, you'd think by now we would have cars with 2000 bhp that would be a huge challenge to control, ban on electric aids and just an absolute gladiator skirmish where the strongest car and driver win.... this must have actually happened in some other universe, while ours went so horribly wrong.

Do you not support development of efficiency? The onus is on the teams to develop efficient engines which would use fuel efficiently in its default mode rather than drivers having to go slow to reduce fuel consumption. It has been what only 3 months since the last generation engines? I expect the teams to make this fuel rate default and optimal of speed with their engines in a couple of years. I don't think we can make a judgement so soon.
 

[7MGTEsup]

I'm really surprised anyone watches MOTO GP as they lap about 30 seconds a lap slower than an F1 car. Those races must be so hard to watch with all the slowness and all.

[Paul Parker]

I'm really surprised anyone watches MOTO GP as they lap about 30 seconds a lap slower than an F1 car. Those races must be so hard to watch with all the slowness and all.

 

The two disciplines are mutually exclusive and comparisons are invidious.

 

In reality the bike racers are bona fide heroes from the front to the rear of the grid, the skill, sensitivity and courage to go that fast on two wheels is beyond normal comprehension.

 

They certainly do not look slow on screen or in real life and if you go a Moto GP or superbike round they are mightily impressive.

[OO7]

See what you are saying. 

On the point about Pirelli however, I think what the drivers (Mark Webber specifically) said the cars were STILL a challenge and a reward at full tilt in qualifying, the problem is the Pirelli tyres didn't allow them to get near that in the race due to strategy. He said there were a few races where for reasons he was on a different strategy where he could push and that was how it should be. 

 

So on this point, the way I see it, as long as they have to conserve fuel and tyres in the races, it won't matter how quick the cars are as being on the limit is what gives them the feeling of speed. Alonso said this too. 

[vsabljic]

I'm really surprised anyone watches MOTO GP as they lap about 30 seconds a lap slower than an F1 car. Those races must be so hard to watch with all the slowness and all.

 

Exactly. And the amount of fuel they can use is also limited in MotoGP.

Edited by vsabljic, 06 February 2014 - 17:26.

[vsabljic]

In reality the bike racers are bona fide heroes from the front to the rear of the grid, the skill, sensitivity and courage to go that fast on two wheels is beyond normal comprehension.

 

Agreed. But F1 takes same amount of skill (or higher), only difference is you can see Moto GP racers, and F1 racers are hidden in a cockpit.

[7MGTEsup]

The two disciplines are mutually exclusive and comparisons are invidious.

 

In reality the bike racers are bona fide heroes from the front to the rear of the grid, the skill, sensitivity and courage to go that fast on two wheels is beyond normal comprehension.

 

They certainly do not look slow on screen or in real life and if you go a Moto GP or superbike round they are mightily impressive.

 

Incase you hadden't realised I said it with tongue in cheek. My point was MOTO GP is very exciting to watch even though the bikes are circulating the track a whole half minute slower than a formula 1 car can manage on the same circuit.

[kraduk]

The two disciplines are mutually exclusive and comparisons are invidious.

 

In reality the bike racers are bona fide heroes from the front to the rear of the grid, the skill, sensitivity and courage to go that fast on two wheels is beyond normal comprehension.

 

They certainly do not look slow on screen or in real life and if you go a Moto GP or superbike round they are mightily impressive.

 

motogp riders are just boys, the real men are the road racers like guy martin. If you want speed just watch some of the ulster gp footage.

[Bartonz20let]

C*ck size competition anyone?

[chipmcdonald]

Obviously the least fuel will be used for a race distance by going the slowest speed possible.

Ever since refuelling was banned the teams have started cars with less fuel than is necessary to complete the race at maximum speed. They will slow down for periods during races, as they have done since 2009. No big deal.

 

The problem is that maximum speed in turn is not the most efficient.  When the cars were underfueled before, they risked not finishing *the last lap*.  That is a big difference from starting 33% short of the race distance.

[V8 Fireworks]

Obviously the car has a little (big) advantage called downforce.  If motorcycles had downforce they would be very, very, very fast around corners as well...

 

Agreed. But F1 takes same amount of skill (or higher), only difference is you can see Moto GP racers, and F1 racers are hidden in a cockpit.

 

Rubbish, car racing is easier I imagine.  Any hack like Webber can do it, it's just like a video game... and even then Webbo misses apexs and does a bad lap... just ask a Vettel fan. 

[SenorSjon]

I'm really surprised anyone watches MOTO GP as they lap about 30 seconds a lap slower than an F1 car. Those races must be so hard to watch with all the slowness and all.

 

With the TV rights, you hardly can watch MotoGP. But are you serious or just trolling? Motobikes are perhaps even faster on the straights than F1 these days. They lose out on the number of tires, brakes and aero. And they don't even have an engineer whispering in their ear when they should take a corner 10cm earlier.

[SanDiegoGo]

So, are you guys actually using the first test times to judge how fast these cars are? That's messed up.

[dau]

With the TV rights, you hardly can watch MotoGP. But are you serious or just trolling? Motobikes are perhaps even faster on the straights than F1 these days. They lose out on the number of tires, brakes and aero. And they don't even have an engineer whispering in their ear when they should take a corner 10cm earlier.

On the straights, sure, but not in the corners. The MotoGP lap record stands at 1:39.565 - and that's without the chicane.

[KnucklesAgain]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112481

 

Ferrari technical director James Allison is expecting a rapid increase in the performance of the current Formula 1 cars before the start of the season.

With a number of drivers having expressed concerns at the first pre-season test that the 2014 cars were too slow, Allison's comments will ease some of those worries.

He reckons that a combination of early focus on engine performance and reliability, plus a desire to leave aerodynamic development until nearer the start of the season, means car are nowhere near their full potential yet.

And he has revealed that teams are making rapid progress in producing more downforce, which will lift cornering speeds.

"Just look at the size of the rear wings - they are more or less Canada-type rear wings," said Allison.

"That is roughly where the downforce of the [2014] car is. There is also not the blowing of the floor either.

"But new rules offer new opportunities, so the rate of finding downforce is quite steep.

"You never know when it is going to slacken off, but it is showing no signs of that at the moment."

A number of teams only ran with basic car configuration at Jerez, and are leaving their proper aerodynamic developments for later in the pre-season preparations.

Jenson Button was one driver who was in no doubt that speeds will lift before the Australian Grand Prix, and would continue to improve over the course of the campaign.

"When we go to the first race everyone is going to be much faster," he said.

"And by the end of the year we might not be that far off, a couple of seconds."

Williams chief test and support engineer Rod Nelson said that teams would use the forthcoming Bahrain tests to focus on speed much more, although it may not be until the final run that true performance becomes clear.

"I've got about 300 things on my list to do, and I think we've knocked off about 50 so far," he explained.

"We've got a load of stuff to do. We've got a whole race distance to run, which isn't all about qualifying pace.

"We've got different tests we're looking at to look at tyre degradation versus first lap performance for example.

"We'll have a lot of the new aero components that we're expecting for Melbourne will come for the second Bahrain test."

 

[Kingshark]

2003-2004 saw the peak of F1 performance and lap records from that time still stand. Yet you'd have to have serious self-loathing to want to live through some of those races again.

2003 was infinitely more entertaining than 2013, only a fool would deny it.

[rodlamas]

2003 was infinitely more entertaining than 2013, only a fool would deny it.

The answer for this was a tyre war.

With everyone on the same tyres, we will never see that kind of rivaliry again.

In 2005 when we had Raikkonen vs Alonso, Michelin could bring different tyres for both Mclaren and Renault and that's why the thing was so interesting.

[dau]

2003 was infinitely more entertaining than 2013, only a fool would deny it.

Result-wise, sure. But the actual races?

[Kingshark]

Result-wise, sure. But the actual races?

 

Australia, Brazil, Silverstone, and Indianapolis 2003 >>>> Any of the races in 2013.

Edited by Kingshark, 14 February 2014 - 21:08.

[dau]

Australia, Brazil, Silverstone, and Indianapolis 2003 >>>> Any of the races in 2013.

Wet races are more entertaining than dry races, yes.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Wet races are more entertaining than dry races, yes.

Name one entertaining race from 2013 then.

[andyF1]

Siverstone 2003 was dry, one of the best dry races of the last 20 years or so. Austria and Nurburgring were also pretty good that year and they were dry races as well

[dau]

Name one entertaining race from 2013 then.

I always find it hard to decide on single races, but on average, they must have been quite entertaining, as i can't remember switching off before the end a single time. Or doing something else while the race runs on in the background. I can however remember doing that in that 'great era' at times. The 2013 season wasn't exciting regarding the title fight, i'll give you that, but there's more to races than just the podium positions.

 

I mean, this is about the average race and not the highlight races, isn't it? Of course there were entertaining races in 2003 - and wet races are good most of the times. And when you have a close title fight, then even races that would be pretty boring on their own can by quite exciting. Not that i think the British GP was boring, i can't really remember much, like i said. But anyway, that's not because of the cars, just as it's not the cars that are at fault for us not having a suspenseful title fight in 2013.

 

On average, i found the races of that past era a bit boring. The cars were great, but normally, there was no way you could overtake anyone on track unless you were several seconds faster. Most position changes happened in the pits, when it turned out that cars that were 'fighting', i.e. driving close to another, were not even in the same race as one had much more fuel on board. But actual on-track action was pretty rare and i remember lots of complaints about that. The racing was deemed that boring that regulations were adjusted numerous times to encourage more overtaking. Downforce reductions, ban on tyre changes, then the two-compound rule, the TC ban via the SECU, finally the new aero for 2009. FIA had even started an Overtaking Working Group in early 2007, to search for solutions for that problem.

 

Why do you think they did that when that era's racing was so exciting anyway? DRS and the degrading tyres are certainly not the best solution, but in the end, if you have a car closing in on the leader at half a second a lap nowadays, you know there actually is a chance of a position change. Drivers aren't safe anymore just because they're ahead after the last pitstop and the first lap isn't really indicative of the final standings anymore. Well, unless you have a dominating team like Red Bull, of course. But like i said, that's not related to the speed of the cars. A 'faster' F1 would just mean Red Bull dominating with gaps between being even larger. I don't think anyone would want that. Would you?

 

And if you're going to insist on me naming a single race i found entertaining in 2013, i'm going to say Malaysia.

Edited by dau, 15 February 2014 - 13:53.

[HoldenRT]

You can tell when it's too easy because the drivers will never spin off and DNF, will never flat spot or run wide.. and can make overtaking moves without seeming like they are risking anything.

 

You could argue that they are the best in the world, but they always have been.. and yet we've always seen these things.  It'll probably be hard at first due to the new regs and adjustments being made, but once they adjust and the cars become more refined, it could be even easier than it has been in the last year or 2.

 

To follow what others talked about above.. in 2003 or 2005 or 2006, I enjoyed those races very much, regardless of if some of them were dull.  The results were pure and you knew they were pushing hard each lap.  The main thing that'd spoil it was tracks that are hard to overtake combined with Trulli trains.  One of the best races of 2005, had Schumacher on the tail of Alonso at Imola and he didn't even overtake, but it was thrilling to watch.

 

So much conserving these days especially in the first stints on heavy fuel when they eek out until the pitstops, but what can you do.

[Gilles4Ever]

This thread is so far off topic, it's never coming back