165 replies to this topic

[Lights]

First of all, the car is a tyre eater. How many times this year have we been waiting for a pit stop because the lap times were just abysmal?

 

But this should be no excuse for the strategy last weekend, because instead of a reaction to the worn out tyres the team sticks to their plan. As some wrote above, a further pit stop for options had been a good idea and if they considered this earlier in the race they could have shortened the 2nd and 3rd stint on the Primes.

 

Well, maybe they aren't capable of clairvoyance. But at least when they saw that JB will be eaten by the train behind him they could have pitted him. He was going to score 0 points anyway.

 

The contrast with Red Bull is immense in this regard. When Vettel pitted with something like 8 laps to go even I thought 'What's Red Bull doing? He's already 7th and who would pass him now?'. But Red Bull just crunched the numbers and took action. Instead, McLaren just stick to their plan made in lap 1 and despite Jenson pointing out several times during the race (also during the first half) that something seemed wrong at the rear of the car causing excessive degradation, they still kept their foot in with an effective 1 stop strategy. Tiresome and painful to watch.

[BillBald]

I would have to say that it looks like I may have been wrong about EB. There seems to be no real change at all at McLaren.

 

A few races back I remember the Sky team coming across JN and EB and while Eric seemed ok Jonathan just seemed to be a bit like the village idiot. Maybe he was just camera shy but he came across as plain daft.

 

I have to wonder if he is responsible for some of the, shall we say, 'odd' decisions made by McLaren.

 

I'm getting a very strong feeling that EB has not been given the power to make the changes which are needed at McLaren. Every time he's interviewed he looks very uncomfortable, as though he's having to take responsibility for someone else's decisions..

 

Look at the optimism we all felt at the start of this thread. And now it's clear that nothing has changed.

[Rocket73]

He's probably smothered by Dennis...and I don't get the feeling that JN would stand up to him in any way.

[Lights]

Lap 24, Button was 3.5 seconds behind Massa, slowly gaining time on him but both are obviously losing grip. Lap 25, Massa pits. McLaren knows Massa has a 5 second penalty. McLaren lets Button do 2 more laps on old tires. Bring in Magnussen in the meantime. Massa's pace on fresh tires is 2 seconds a lap faster than previous. Lap 27, Button pits and at the end of the next lap he is 1.7 seconds behind Massa.

 

This is clearly throwing a podium away. They know Massa has the penalty, they know they can tell Jenson to come in when they see Massa does. It's not that frickin difficult. Just react. Williams this year have often thrown away places through strategy, but even they are too mighty for the infamous McLaren Race Control. Had Button gone ahead, I highly doubt Massa would have been able to overtake Button so easily. We saw the likes of Hamilton not being able to get by Rosberg, and Alonso (and even Button) to heavily struggle against Raikkonen on much older tires. Such frustration, and such a shame. Not only do they apparently sack Button in the cruelest way possible, they also make sure he won't see the podium this year for a proper goodbye to the sport.

[Dalton007]

Could they have stacked Jenson and KMag on that lap? Perhaps too much for the strat guys to think about.

[Button4life]

Lap 24, Button was 3.5 seconds behind Massa, slowly gaining time on him but both are obviously losing grip. Lap 25, Massa pits. McLaren knows Massa has a 5 second penalty. McLaren lets Button do 2 more laps on old tires. Bring in Magnussen in the meantime. Massa's pace on fresh tires is 2 seconds a lap faster than previous. Lap 27, Button pits and at the end of the next lap he is 1.7 seconds behind Massa.

 

This is clearly throwing a podium away. They know Massa has the penalty, they know they can tell Jenson to come in when they see Massa does. It's not that frickin difficult. Just react. Williams this year have often thrown away places through strategy, but even they are too mighty for the infamous McLaren Race Control. Had Button gone ahead, I highly doubt Massa would have been able to overtake Button so easily. We saw the likes of Hamilton not being able to get by Rosberg, and Alonso (and even Button) to heavily struggle against Raikkonen on much older tires. Such frustration, and such a shame. Not only do they apparently sack Button in the cruelest way possible, they also make sure he won't see the podium this year for a proper goodbye to the sport.

http://macofan.com/e...r2=Felipe Massa

Button lost 4-4,5sec to Massa in his inlap...

Edited by Button4life, 09 November 2014 - 18:51.

[PARAZAR]

Lap 24, Button was 3.5 seconds behind Massa, slowly gaining time on him but both are obviously losing grip. Lap 25, Massa pits. McLaren knows Massa has a 5 second penalty. McLaren lets Button do 2 more laps on old tires. Bring in Magnussen in the meantime. Massa's pace on fresh tires is 2 seconds a lap faster than previous. Lap 27, Button pits and at the end of the next lap he is 1.7 seconds behind Massa.

 

This is clearly throwing a podium away. They know Massa has the penalty, they know they can tell Jenson to come in when they see Massa does. It's not that frickin difficult. Just react. Williams this year have often thrown away places through strategy, but even they are too mighty for the infamous McLaren Race Control. Had Button gone ahead, I highly doubt Massa would have been able to overtake Button so easily. We saw the likes of Hamilton not being able to get by Rosberg, and Alonso (and even Button) to heavily struggle against Raikkonen on much older tires. Such frustration, and such a shame. Not only do they apparently sack Button in the cruelest way possible, they also make sure he won't see the podium this year for a proper goodbye to the sport.

Yes, I really don't know what they were thinking there. Why did they bring in Magnussen instead of Button? It was critical for his race against Massa to come in. What do they do? They leave him out and bring Kevin in.

[Lights]

http://macofan.com/e...r2=Felipe Massa

Button lost 4-4,5sec to Massa in his inlap...

 

Sorry, not really sure what you mean, which lap?

[Giz]

Seemed to me every time Jenson came out he was behind someone between him and the person he was racing

[Button4life]

Sorry, not really sure what you mean, which lap?

Lap 27. If Button didn't pit he would've probably drove in the 19's. His lap inlap for the 2nd stop was 1,7 slower than his 1st lap.

[Lights]

Lap 27. If Button didn't pit he would've probably drove in the 19's. His lap inlap for the 2nd stop was 1,7 slower than his 1st lap.

 

Hm I'm not sure about that, because Button's inlap was only 1 tenth slower than Massa's. I think it was a good inlap considering his tires at that point.

[Rocket73]

IIRC  between the 2nd and 3rd pitstops massa put a good gap on JB.

 

That's a dubious recollection as there was so much going on but I think he could have passed JB fairly easily. 

[BillBald]

Lap 24, Button was 3.5 seconds behind Massa, slowly gaining time on him but both are obviously losing grip. Lap 25, Massa pits. McLaren knows Massa has a 5 second penalty. McLaren lets Button do 2 more laps on old tires. Bring in Magnussen in the meantime. Massa's pace on fresh tires is 2 seconds a lap faster than previous. Lap 27, Button pits and at the end of the next lap he is 1.7 seconds behind Massa.

 

This is clearly throwing a podium away. They know Massa has the penalty, they know they can tell Jenson to come in when they see Massa does. It's not that frickin difficult. Just react. Williams this year have often thrown away places through strategy, but even they are too mighty for the infamous McLaren Race Control. Had Button gone ahead, I highly doubt Massa would have been able to overtake Button so easily. We saw the likes of Hamilton not being able to get by Rosberg, and Alonso (and even Button) to heavily struggle against Raikkonen on much older tires. Such frustration, and such a shame. Not only do they apparently sack Button in the cruelest way possible, they also make sure he won't see the podium this year for a proper goodbye to the sport.

 

I can only suppose that McLaren were worried about high deg, and thought that Jenson would suffer at the end of the race if he pitted earlier.

 

But he had a chance of scoring a podium, and they didn't take it. One or two laps, to be shared between the remaining 2 stints, shouldn't have ruined his race. It's usual for stints later in the race to be longer, because the reduced fuel weight means you can look after the tyres more easily.

 

It seems like they never show good judgement. It's not as though Jenson had a chance of running a 2-stopper like Kimi. Or were they thinking he might?

[Exb]

IIRC  between the 2nd and 3rd pitstops massa put a good gap on JB.
 
That's a dubious recollection as there was so much going on but I think he could have passed JB fairly easily.

Possibly as Massa was quicker however there was a possibility of a better result had Jenson gained track position. There is a chance the Williams car would have ruined its tyres behind the McLaren, Jensons usually pretty good at defending and I wouldn't say Massa's strongest trait is his overtaking so you never know if he managed to keep him behind a few laps the pendulum may have started to swing towards Jensons advantage, however by never being in front there was absolutely no chance.

[Lights]

I can only suppose that McLaren were worried about high deg, and thought that Jenson would suffer at the end of the race if he pitted earlier.

 

But he had a chance of scoring a podium, and they didn't take it. One or two laps, to be shared between the remaining 2 stints, shouldn't have ruined his race. It's usual for stints later in the race to be longer, because the reduced fuel weight means you can look after the tyres more easily.

 

It seems like they never show good judgement. It's not as though Jenson had a chance of running a 2-stopper like Kimi. Or were they thinking he might?

 

Hm no I wouldn't say they were heading towards a 2 stop given the laps they pitted in. The first round of pit stops already surprised me though because they pitted the same lap as Bottas. Why don't they have a system in order like "Do the opposite of Bottas" like we sometimes hear at Red Bull? He had a decent gap to the drivers behind him, so use that, go 1 or 2 laps deeper so that later you might have a tire advantage. Or had they pitted the same lap as Massa in the first stint, he could have leapfrogged Bottas there, stayed closer to Massa in the second stint (when he clearly did have the pace for that) and leapfrog him easily with Massa's penalty. The only thing against that would be high deg yeah. But without trying you won't achieve anything.

[BillBald]

OK, I'm still worrying about McLaren throwing away a chance of a podium in Brazil. It seems they've failed to sort out their in-race decision making, maybe they think they don't need to if Alonso will be bringing his RE for next year.

 

Were McLaren originally thinking they could 2-stop? A study of the team radio transcript (http://www.f1fanatic...dio-transcript/) only deepens the mystery.

 

26     Jenson Button     Tom Stallard     Starting to lose the rears a little bit. Is it overheating or is it not hot enough?
26     Tom Stallard     Jenson Button     Jenson that is overheating. Massa also… Massa’s in. Massa’s pitted. Let’s push. Target minus two.
27     Jenson Button     Tom Stallard     Big oversteer.

 

'Target minus two' suggests that the original plan was to stop on lap 29. That still seems much too early for a 2 stop, Kimi didn't stop until lap 35. So was the plan to run slightly longer stints on primes, so they could do a shorter final stint on options? Learning from their mistake in Austin?

 

If that was the plan, it wasn't a bad one. but when Jenson was able to stay with the Williams in the early part of the race, that plan should have been abandoned. Was it really likely that Jenson could keep up with the Williams cars, while running longer stints? Has the 29 now become the better car? You'd have to be foolishly optimistic to imagine that.

 

So the game had changed from running longer stints, so that they could fit options for that final stint, to getting ahead of the Williams cars using the undercut. There was no other possible strategy as the 2nd pitstops approached. And Jenson complaining about losing the rears should have been the final proof that the strategy needed to be changed.

 

And, as if to help them make up their minds, came the news that Massa had a 5-second penalty. It was now a no-brainer to pit Jenson on the same lap if that was possible. The simple instruction "pit when Massa pits" would have covered it.