155 replies to this topic

[Jerem]

Many topics in this forum suggest that, for various reasons, F1 is getting less and less competitive: spec parts, little freedom in the design of the cars leading to the development being restricted to PU software and tiny aero parts, tyre- and fuel-saving races where drivers barely push at the maximum of the cars and themselves...

 

On the other hand, the technical regulations of LMP1 seem to give at the same time more freedom to engineers and to include road-relevant technologies in a smarter way (constructors can choose within a wider range of hybrid engines, which they do). This variety also  holds for the sound of the engines, which are heavily criticized in F1. Also, P1 cars are rather close to F1 performance-wise, on the level of GP2. Engineers are among the best, e.g. Porsche has recruited a lot within F1 teams. Tyres have both life and performance, no DRS is used. No open wheels means less aero technicalities and more efficiency.

 

It seems that only the drivers, the best of which are often among former high-class single seaters drivers, are less hyped that F1 drivers, although the fresh arrival of the likes of Mark Webber has seemingly increased the interest in the drivers. And of course the format is not very relevant TV-wise, in an era when young motorsports fans are believed to prefer watching highlights of a race on a mobile app rather than the whole race on TV or (God forbid) at an actual track.

 

So do you think LMP1 is becoming the new pinnacle of motorsport, or that there is no way it can rob F1 of this spot? What are the main reasons why it cannot make it in your opinion?

[SCUDmissile]

yes

[paulogman]

By that way of thinking,
WRC is the pinnacle.
Most relevant to road cars and very limited aero.
Drivers push on their limits, nothing else.

[FullThrottleF1]

Probably.

[Richard T]

It was a shaky start for the ILMC but for the last couple of years as WEC it has really progressed well with a bright view for the future. Today I would easily call it the second most significant world championship after F1.

This year it certainly has the possibility to take off. So let's wait and see whats on offer this weekend at Silverstone, then we will have a clearer picture 

Edited by Richard T, 17 April 2014 - 15:05.

[senna da silva]

Bahrain was one of the most competitive GP's I've ever seen. Too many fans have been watching for too short a period of time.

[Spillage]

In a word, no. Just look at this forum. The vast majority of threads and the vast majority of interest remains, and is likely to remain, with F1.

[KingTiger]

Not even close. 

[Lazy]

It may have more tech freedom but the real difference in F1 is in the detail. You only have to look at the large manufacturers who have tried and failed in F1 spending the sort of money that would pretty much guarantee you success in LMP1.

 

F1 is the pinnacle because it is so ****ing hard to get into the midfield let alone compete for victories.

[Treads]

The fact that Toyota could blow in with the tattered fragments of their ex-F1 team and design a competitive (2nd fastest) LMP1 car in a few months suggests the heat is no where near as hot in LM. 

 

But in general, it is getting closer. The technology in LMP1 is making it all the more interesting and F1 needs to have some stability for a couple of years and allow the teams to pick up the pace of their cars, or the LMP1 cars will be up there on speed. 

[Lotus53B]

I just did a quick search for "pinnacle of motorsport" in RASF1 via google groups, and this comment has been being made for 20+ years.  Well, after I spelled pinaccle pinnaccle pinnacle correctly...

 

I don't think that there is one real "pinnacle of motorsport", different formulae, be they LMP, Moto-GP, Rallying stress different factors.  Which is good, 'cos there's more variety to see and enjoy

Edited by Lotus53B, 17 April 2014 - 15:24.

[Anja]

The only problem with LMP1 is its use in endurance racing - and that means it will never be as popular as F1. Sure, those with true passion for motorsport will follow WEC and appreciate all its good sides, but for the average fan it's not very friendly.

[Treads]

 

It seems that only the drivers, the best of which are often among former high-class single seaters drivers, are less hyped that F1 drivers, although the fresh arrival of the likes of Mark Webber has seemingly increased the interest in the drivers.

 

There are many good drivers in LM but equally many of these were, at their best, not good enough for F1 and hence were swiftly rejected, or are well past their best. Or never made it there in the first place.

Edited by Treads, 17 April 2014 - 15:32.

[Fastcake]

Come back when endurance racing starts to make the news outside of Autosport. Until then, F1 is the only motorsport series that can have that status.

[Seanspeed]

Many topics in this forum suggest that, for various reasons, F1 is getting less and less competitive: spec parts, little freedom in the design of the cars leading to the development being restricted to PU software and tiny aero parts, tyre- and fuel-saving races where drivers barely push at the maximum of the cars and themselves...

'Freedom' in F1 is more open than it has been in a long time, actually. Only 8% of the engine is 'frozen' and teams are free to design entirely new chassis and aero packages.

And where are these 'many' topics that suggest F1 is less competitive? I haven't seen them.

Lastly, how is LMP1 the 'pinnacle' in absolutely any way? Its far more tire and fuel related than F1. Its drivers are worse, the cars are slower and an exciting margin of victory can be 30 seconds.

There are certain things it does better, but F1 is still the pinnacle of road racing. Nobody aspires to be an endurance racer. Its a backup plan.

[sopa]

WEC or endurance racing in its form will always remain something that only bigger motorsport enthusiasts can grasp properly. For an average Joe it is just too much to try to deepen into a race, which lasts for 24hrs or 12hrs - with all of its strategies and stuff.

 

For genuine world-wide popularity to attract the masses you need max 1-2 hour action that people can concentrate on at the time in addition to other daily activities.

[SanDiegoGo]

Can these type of posts just start by the poster stating which team and driver they support, so I can just roll my eyes and dismiss their opinion immediately?

[Jerem]

I find all the opinions really interesting. I think F1 is the pinnacle (whatever it means) and is likely to stay. I never miss a F1 race but I hardly ever watch WEC, except the odd glance at a race, usually Le Mans. I started wondering after reading a WEC guide and being amazed at the diversity of engines or "power units" used by the three main constructors. So basically I wanted the opinion of real endurance fans and also people like me who don't follow it.

Of course WEC is less popular, it is easier because it has less constructors. drivers are less popular (and overall not as good as in F1) but I find the late developments very interesting and thought it could really compete with F1 or at least teach it a few lessons.

 

Also this is my first propre OP so please be gentle 

[Victor_RO]

In terms of levels+variety of technology, 2014 LMP1 trumps 2014 F1. I mean... F1 powertrain solutions are vastly similar, while in LMP1 we have at least 4 different engine alternatives, with 3 different ERS+energy storage means and solutions.

 

In terms of reachability to the "casual fan", F1 is still ahead; endurance racing is something that requires patience, very long attention spans and a certain kind of dedication to follow well.

[RealRacing]

LMP1 is the pinnacle of endurance racing and F1 is the pinnacle of...no...wait...

[Risil]

Only when Ferrari defects to Le Mans. Which might be next June the way this season is going.

[jjcale]

No .... its boring

[jjcale]

In terms of levels+variety of technology, 2014 LMP1 trumps 2014 F1. I mean... F1 powertrain solutions are vastly similar, while in LMP1 we have at least 4 different engine alternatives, with 3 different ERS+energy storage means and solutions.

 

In terms of reachability to the "casual fan", F1 is still ahead; endurance racing is something that requires patience, very long attention spans and a certain kind of dedication to follow well.

 

or like I said... its boring

[Massa]

The only problem with LMP1 is its use in endurance racing - and that means it will never be as popular as F1. Sure, those with true passion for motorsport will follow WEC and appreciate all its good sides, but for the average fan it's not very friendly.

 

The 24 hours of le Mans is now a pure sprint race. They are flat out all the race, they no longer save fuel tyre or whatever like in F1. It's much more interesting than F1 for me.

Edited by Massa, 17 April 2014 - 19:23.

[RockBrocaine]

As far as innovation, maybe. But, endurance racing is a differnt type of animal. I can't watch 12-24hrs of anything, a 2 solid hours of wheel to wheel is perfect.

Edited by RockBrocaine, 17 April 2014 - 19:56.

[Dolph]

The only problem with LMP1 is its use in endurance racing - and that means it will never be as popular as F1. Sure, those with true passion for motorsport will follow WEC and appreciate all its good sides, but for the average fan it's not very friendly.

 

Exactly. 6 hours to watch is too difficult for the average fan.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I can't either. Though I couldn't watch 6 hours of F1.

[Risil]

NASCAR seems to manage okay with its 3-4 hour races.

[scheivlak]

With Porsche joining in LMP1 is finally getting somewhere but the Autosport headline http://plus.autospor...ar-season-ever/ is, let's say, a bit bizarre.

 

How about e.g. 1965-1966-1967, 1970, 1988-1989-1990-1991?

[AlainProstX]

F1 haters and sportscar fans will tell you so.

Rosberg and Hamilton battling it out for victory is pretty boring compared to watching Audis cruising to victorys.

Well, atleast the R18 is beautiful.

[phoenix101]

No. F1 is the crown jewel of FIA series, and the FIA will protect it.

 

LMP1 has more powertrain variation, which leads to more interest from the fans, but the series is a slightly diluted version of F1. Green tech. Fuel-efficient marketing fluff. Mickey-mouse fuel balancing rules. The cars are ugly, as well, compared to sportscar prototypes from other era.

 

Furthermore, LMP1 is not accomplishing anything. The manufacturers should be required to use production engines. Porsche LMP1 should be powered by the Porsche 911 Turbo engine or 918 engine. Audi should be powered by the R8 engine. Toyota by a Lexus LFA engine. Aston Martin by a One-77 engine. Ferrari by a LaFerrari engine. McLaren by a P1 engine. Lamborghini by a Aventador engine. Bentley by a Continental GT engine. Mercedes by an SLS GT engine. BMW by an M5 or M3 engine. Nissan by a GTR engine.

 

If you don't build a premium production engine, piss off. Gasoline only. Simplified mild hybrid systems without 4-wheel e-drive.

Edited by phoenix101, 17 April 2014 - 21:11.

[mclarensmps]

LMP1 is the pinnacle of it's domain. F1 is the pinnacle of it's domain. The cars are built to different criteria, and cannot be compared. 

 

This is like trying to compare a Hillclimber to a Dakar racer

[scheivlak]

LMP1 is the pinnacle of it's domain. F1 is the pinnacle of it's domain. The cars are built to different criteria, and cannot be compared. 

 

This is like trying to compare a Hillclimber to a Dakar racer

In a way, you 're completely right - but maybe just too easy.

 

It's interesting in a way to reflect why LMP1 will never be seen as the pinnacle again -because this thread is of course not about some scoresheet between F1 and LMP1 but about perception.

 

Sportscar racing was very important in the 50/60s, and it might be said that the Le Mans 24 hour race did outshine any F1 GP at the time, and -from memory- certainly in the years 1965-1967. I still remember big advertisements about Ford's win in 1966 in Dutch daily newspapers, something you would have never seen after a F1 win.

 

Yet that was in a way related to the fact that both GPs or sportscar//prototype endurance races presented themselves to the public mainly in two ways: being there at the spot (and Le Mans used to have 400.000 visitors every year) or being reported in the newspapers the next day and/or the motorsport press the next few weeks or months. Television was just an additional opportunity.

In an era when TV wasn't paramount experiencing a 24 hour event at the spot was a pretty interesting value/money experience and a good story-on-paper as well.

 

What has changed is that television is now the general way by which we experience any sport event, certainly any form of motor sport. And in the world of television a max 2 hour GP format wins easily from some far-out 6 or even 24 hour format, no matter how interesting the competition is from an insider point of view. 

Edited by scheivlak, 17 April 2014 - 21:53.

[Option1]

I much prefer sportscar racing to F1, but I wouldn't claim it's the pinnacle of motorsport.  That title still belongs to F1 and is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

 

Neil

[ClubmanGT]

By that way of thinking,
WRC is the pinnacle.
Most relevant to road cars and very limited aero.
Drivers push on their limits, nothing else.

 

WRC cars have no relevance to road cars anymore. Group A is dead, mores the pity. 

 

 

 

Sportscar racing was very important in the 50/60s, and it might be said that the Le Mans 24 hour race did outshine any F1 GP at the time, and -from memory- certainly in the years 1965-1967. 

 

 

How curious, two of those years when a non-British driver didn't win the title. Wonder why that could be?

 

But to make a more credible point, there were intense Ferrari/Ford rivalries that made Sports Car wins worth bragging about. 

 

I don't think the WEC will ever be the pinnacle again - does it even come to the Southern Hemisphere at all?

Edited by ClubmanGT, 17 April 2014 - 22:12.

[scheivlak]

 

How curious, two of those years when a non-British driver didn't win the title. Wonder why that could be?

 

 

Just to make sure - there's not a microsecond I thought about that. It simply has nothing to do with F1, but everything with the unmatched impact of the Ford/Ferrari battle at the time (with some spice added from Chaparral and Porsche) which was almost seen as a clash of civilisations.

 

And about "winning the title" - British drivers didn't win Le Mans either in those years, unlike some drivers from the southern hemisphere 

Edited by scheivlak, 17 April 2014 - 23:02.

[DanardiF1]

Technologically... yes. As an overall motorsport 'product'... no, and that's coming from someone who has become a big fan of the WEC and endurance racing.

 

The new cars are probably using the most complex powertrains ever put in mainstream motorsport vehicles. Their aerodynamics are on a similar level to their F1 cousins, if then being saddled with 250kg extra does negate any downforce advantage a completely flat bottomed sportscar has over a single seater.

 

Even things like the fuel and tyres are far ahead of what F1 mandates can be used. Everyone in LMP1 uses Michelin, but Michelin is able to invest and produce incredible tyres that really showcase what they can do and therefore what the cars can do... those treadless intermediate tyres debuted in the last couple of years are truly mind boggling pieces of kit.

 

BUT

 

Even now with Porsche entering there are only 6 cars competing for the overall victory (sorry Rebellion) at most events. The races have become massively elongated sprints, which is great as a spectacle for watching individual cars, but means that a race for the lead can be over due to one slight error even over 6 hours of racing, because the chasing car has no chance to catch up.

 

The technology is incredible, but that creates barriers to entry, and whilst the rules are targeted solely at manufacturers, there's still a lot of money to be committed to be able to build cars of this level of technology. There are not many car companies that are willing to do that right now, with only VW and Toyota able to do so. Nissan are constantly telling us they're interested but nothing has come of it so far, and whilst rumours of Ferrari are nice to hear, I don't expect to see anything on track too soon. There are manufacturers making big committments to hybrid technology, BMW as an example... they need to be convinced to join in.

 

The flip side of that is that at Le Mans or in any championship race, one team has to finish last... and whilst 8th place overall is no disaster really, no manufacturer is going to stick around long if they don't get podiums and wins. Manufacturers don't exist to race. Look how quickly the GT1 era ended in the late 90's... You had Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, Porsche, Nissan etc.... and when the manufacturers realised only one of them can win they gave up. BMW won in 99, but as they knew that they probably wouldn't be so lucky twice they didn't bother defending the title in 2000.

Edited by DanardiF1, 17 April 2014 - 22:59.

[Mika Mika]

You're not comparing apples with apples, the sport is different as are the challenges

[Mika Mika]

You're not comparing apples with apples, the sport is different as are the challenges

[LB]

The only thing that has really challenged F1 in recent memory as the pinnacle was CART in the early nineties and they weren't actually trying to it just kinda happened had the split not gone ahead and the had some international events in 1995 then it would have been very interesting!. Sportscars were just as important in the 50's and 60's.

[DanardiF1]

The only thing that has really challenged F1 in recent memory as the pinnacle was CART in the early nineties and they weren't actually trying to it just kinda happened had the split not gone ahead and the had some international events in 1995 then it would have been very interesting!. Sportscars were just as important in the 50's and 60's.

 

I'd suggest late 80's, early 90's Group C with Merc, Jag, Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, Porsche and everyone else was a pretty big deal.

[Lazy]

WRC cars have no relevance to road cars anymore. Group A is dead, mores the pity. 

 

 

I'm still mourning Group B.

[DanardiF1]

I'm still mourning Group B.

 

The irony being that as the current WRC cars have no need for a road-going equivalent, the rules could be adjusted to allow much more extravagant looking cars. The modern cars are much quicker than the Group B era anyway, but they're very boring visually.... give them big wings and more provision for looking like the kind of prototype cars we saw in Group B like the RS200 and Delta S4.

[ardbeg]

If, for some reason, LMP1 would suddenly regarded as "the pinnacle of motorsport", then I am quite sure the relative freedom would quickly diminish. Currently they have plenty freedom, but in the end the various solutions are equalized by FiA. I'm sure some would cheer if FiA allowed Mercedes to run only 95kg/hour and Ferrari 110kg/h at the next F1 race, but would the majority like it?

 

Besides, with only three teams they have a way to go still.

[Fastcake]

The irony being that as the current WRC cars have no need for a road-going equivalent, the rules could be adjusted to allow much more extravagant looking cars. The modern cars are much quicker than the Group B era anyway, but they're very boring visually.... give them big wings and more provision for looking like the kind of prototype cars we saw in Group B like the RS200 and Delta S4.

 

I have thought for years that Rallying could be popular again, it just needs someone to finally pull it out of the death spiral it's been in for the last decade. I wouldn't expect it to regain its former golden era or even try to compete with F1, but with cars that look exciting (maybe with a few flames coming out again) and a properly packaged TV broadcast people might start talking about it again.

[DanardiF1]

I have thought for years that Rallying could be popular again, it just needs someone to finally pull it out of the death spiral it's been in for the last decade. I wouldn't expect it to regain its former golden era or even try to compete with F1, but with cars that look exciting (maybe with a few flames coming out again) and a properly packaged TV broadcast people might start talking about it again.

 

That's just it. Rallying is one part of motorsport that is almost purely about the visual experience. There's no real-world relevance to the style of driving rally drivers use or the cars they drive, so why not just let them be as crazy looking as possible?

 

Why does everyone remember the Ford RS200? It didn't compete in many events and wasn't especially successful... it's because it looked like a supercar made to run on gravel.

[morrino]

Define 'pinnacle' and I'll answer your question.

[mclarensmps]

Define 'pinnacle' and I'll answer your question.

 

Here

Edited by mclarensmps, 18 April 2014 - 05:06.

[404KF2]

I have always enjoyed Le Mans racing more than F-1, ever since I saw the 1970 1000 km race at Spa.  LMP-1 has always been great, even its predecessor in the mid 1970s, it was fantastic to watch.  So: YES

[TF110]

In terms of technology its the pinnacle. Not in terms of speed or spectacle. It could be but the rule makers would probably do to it what was done to group c. If Nissan joins next year theres 4 manufacturers. How long until an american manufacturer like chevy or ford join lmp1? Perhaps even Ferrari. But F1 gets the attention because of its brand and established recognition.