89 replies to this topic

[DutchQuicksilver]

I think the situation he's in now will finally show us if he's among the greats or not. Both on adaptability and skills as personality.

[tghik]

I think you're trying to devalue what was a fantastic performance at Monza in 2008.

 

Perhaps you too have an agenda?

I'll tell you what I think of Vettel .. For me he is a Rosberg calibre, he is a very strong driver, but not the A+ driver. At the end of his career, we will see if I judge him correctly or not. So the only agenda I have is to judge by knowing what the performance is based on, stats are only good when used with analysis of the factors around them. I am a designer in real life, so I apply the same thing to F1 drivers. The problem with fanboys they bring stats out of context, so to give you an example is like saying Rosberg now is better than Hamilton looking at points, can't dispute that, so it is a real stat, BUT out of context because Hamilton retired one race due to mechanical issue, not his fault. The same is about Vettel, the stat that he won in STR is raw stat, but out of context stat as it was a wet win when the car had weight distribution advantage for wet driving, also showed by the fact his teammate was also going stronger, although not denying the fact that Sebastian was better. His teammate is not even in F1 anymore, so he had a teammate that was weak. But who did Sebastian faced as teammates in his career ? and in what circumstances ? At the end of his career we will have a more complete picture of Vettel when we will have a larger statistical sample pool to judge him on.

[Hamttel]

Agree. Seb´s Monza 2008 is one of the most amazing poles and victories I´ve never seen. Don´t forget he achieved with a dry setup (as Ascanelli confirmed) and his pole lap was just 1 tenth faster than a much faster McLaren. 

 

The race, considering the circumpstances and the experience from Seb was something special in F1 history.  

[1Devil1]

Agree. Seb´s Monza 2008 is one of the most amazing poles and victories I´ve never seen. Don´t forget he achieved with a dry setup (as Ascanelli confirmed) and his pole lap was just 1 tenth faster than a much faster McLaren. 

 

The race, considering the circumpstances and the experience from Seb was something special in F1 history.  

 

You can always find something to dismiss an achievement, it's so easy to create 'facts' on the internet, that are never been proven, but used all the time, at one point people start to believe they are real facts. Like STR had a special weight distribution, or he had a super special setup, when people who worked with him, said it was a dry setup. Of course his team mate qualified well, but did you ever see in modern f1, a driver putting a car on pole, when his team mate was struggling around in the midfield? I can't be done, you need a good car, the difference between, and you the job must be down, Vettel did it..

Edited by 1Devil1, 21 April 2014 - 12:51.

[SanDiegoGo]

If he's not on top of his issues by Silverstone then questions can be rightfully asked, but it's still too earlt to say if he is being out classed by a better driver or a difficult car. He is a 4 time WDC and while he did it a very good car he did it while others failed. It will be very interesting to see just what Vettel is made of here.

[rhukkas]

Agree. Seb´s Monza 2008 is one of the most amazing poles and victories I´ve never seen. Don´t forget he achieved with a dry setup (as Ascanelli confirmed) and his pole lap was just 1 tenth faster than a much faster McLaren. 

 

The race, considering the circumpstances and the experience from Seb was something special in F1 history.  

 

Pastor Maldanado won in a Williams at Barcelona. An equally amazing achievement wouldn't you agree?

 

BUT in both circumstances the victories required a certain amount of misfortune for a certain Mr Hamilton. As well as the fact the Torro Roso and the RBR were bloody quick in the wet  at Monza (Bourdais was 4th on the grid... BOURDAIS...coulda got a podium himself too)

Edited by rhukkas, 21 April 2014 - 13:16.

[1Devil1]

Pastor Maldanado won in a Williams at Barcelona. An equally amazing achievement wouldn't you agree?

 

BUT in both circumstances the victories required a certain amount of misfortune for a certain Mr Hamilton. As well as the fact the Torro Roso and the RBR were bloody quick in the wet  at Monza (Bourdais was 4th on the grid... BOURDAIS...coulda got a podium himself too)

 

Not everything goes down to Lewis, difference is that Vettel impressed in more races before and after Monza..

[SanDiegoGo]

Not everything goes down to Lewis,

 

 

Well, that's just unacceptable.   

[Jelinski619]

I think too many people are putting too much emphasis on that one single race in Monza 2008. If we're going to be doing that then I'm happy to claim Hamilton is the best wet weather driver of all time on the back of his 2008 Silverstone victory.

 

You cannot judge a driver based on a single race. Otherwise you get claims of Maldonado being a 'Barcelona specialist' or something after he won a couple of years ago.

[BillBald]

Thanks mate!

 

That´s what I said, VET was faster on the softs with full fuel. 

 

RIC was clearly looking after the tyres, to run a longer stint.

[1Devil1]

I think too many people are putting too much emphasis on that one single race in Monza 2008. If we're going to be doing that then I'm happy to claim Hamilton is the best wet weather driver of all time on the back of his 2008 Silverstone victory.

 

You cannot judge a driver based on a single race. Otherwise you get claims of Maldonado being a 'Barcelona specialist' or something after he won a couple of years ago.

 

Yeah, did you watch F1 back then, it's not only about his race victory in Monza, he was superb in 2007/2008, Red Bull didn't even think about if they take him or not, he delivered alone more points in the STR than their line up. Sebastian was seen as star driver that would be the same without this win. Though it doesn't go back to this victory alone, if people comparing his situation with Maldonado, I really have to ask if they were following F1, or just use "argument" made from other users. 

[Jon83]

I'll tell you what I think of Vettel .. For me he is a Rosberg calibre, he is a very strong driver, but not the A+ driver. At the end of his career, we will see if I judge him correctly or not. So the only agenda I have is to judge by knowing what the performance is based on, stats are only good when used with analysis of the factors around them. I am a designer in real life, so I apply the same thing to F1 drivers. The problem with fanboys they bring stats out of context, so to give you an example is like saying Rosberg now is better than Hamilton looking at points, can't dispute that, so it is a real stat, BUT out of context because Hamilton retired one race due to mechanical issue, not his fault. The same is about Vettel, the stat that he won in STR is raw stat, but out of context stat as it was a wet win when the car had weight distribution advantage for wet driving, also showed by the fact his teammate was also going stronger, although not denying the fact that Sebastian was better. His teammate is not even in F1 anymore, so he had a teammate that was weak. But who did Sebastian faced as teammates in his career ? and in what circumstances ? At the end of his career we will have a more complete picture of Vettel when we will have a larger statistical sample pool to judge him on.

 

I understand stats and I don't need an explanation as to why one shouldn't look at them in isolation.

 

You are going on about fanboys here so I'll entertain that one. I doubt many people rate Vettel soley on what he has acheived alone (some might) as I'm sure most will appreciate the quality of the car during his dominance. If their rating of him only came down to the results alone, there wouldn't much point in them ever watching him race. That said, great car or not, he has put in some exceptional peformances (to give you a few, Spain 2011, Italy 2011 and Germany 2013) which you'd have to be very naive to put soley down to the car.

 

In terms of this season, I have already stated that I believe the early season difficulties he has had are being overly exaggerated and though I have contrinuted a few times to it, I'm not convinced it is really worthy of discussion at this moment. I have absolutely no doubt that he'll bounce back and beat his teammate as I do happen to believe he is one of the best out there and Red Bull are no mugs. I don't think they have a cat in hell's chance of the WDC or WCC but I suspect they'll be the best of the rest. His start to 2012 wasn't much to write home about either and he still got the job done that year despite not always having the best car.

 

 

[David Lightman]

Surely Monza 2008 is devalued a bit by the fact an F1 chump like Bourdais qualified 4th? Right car, right place, right time.

[David1976]

Looking at this as objectively as I can Vettel simply hasn't adjusted to the current regs. He is a top driver, no doubt, but then again so are most of the grid.

In my opinion he isn't a great yet though. Had he won championships with two teams, through different regs, or regularly competed at the sharp end in machinery that didn't deserve it, I'd change my mind.

Make no mistake the Red Bull in 2014 is a great car. Riciardo is proving that. And he's beating Vettel without much difficulty it appears.

I hypothesise that perhaps Vettel cannot compete against the current grid without the exhaust trickery that Newey produced.

And don't throw Monza 2008 at me...

[krea]

Surely Monza 2008 is devalued a bit by the fact an F1 chump like Bourdais qualified 4th? Right car, right place, right time.

 

You realize this was a result of failed strategy of many top teams.

 

 

It was a joint decision to go out on wet-weather tyres at the start of [the second session] - partly mine and partly my engineers'. We thought it was the right way to go at the time because it was getting dryer but the grip-level was poor so I came in and switched to extremes ... It's the first time this has happened to me in Formula 1, so I can't really complain.

-Lewis Hamilton, speaking after qualifying

 

Q3 was full of mid-tier teams.

[Jon83]

Looking at this as objectively as I can Vettel simply hasn't adjusted to the current regs. He is a top driver, no doubt, but then again so are most of the grid.

In my opinion he isn't a great yet though. Had he won championships with two teams, through different regs, or regularly competed at the sharp end in machinery that didn't deserve it, I'd change my mind.

Make no mistake the Red Bull in 2014 is a great car. Riciardo is proving that. And he's beating Vettel without much difficulty it appears.

I hypothesise that perhaps Vettel cannot compete against the current grid without the exhaust trickery that Newey produced.

And don't throw Monza 2008 at me...

 

 

The only thing I'll throw at you is that it is way too early to judge. So far their best result has come from Vettel.

[1Devil1]

I am the only one, who believes it could be lack of motivation, after all this years running away with the title, he sees that Mercedes is running away with the title, and if he is honest with himself he know, there is not a high chance to win the whole thing, if you hear him over the radio, or his interviews he seems to be more down than usual. He is twenty-six, he nearly won everything, he could imagine, perhaps he thinks, why should I driving around circles, I could quit, be there for my family. Drivers are no robots, they interfere with the world outside of F1. It was said Lewis, Lewis performance was not good as usual in 2011, while having trouble with Nicole.  

[Massa_f1]

I just think it is rather stupid of people to try devalue Seb's championships already. I know some have been dying to do it for ages, but you could at least wait until the end of the season before making such judgments.

He could still easily finish 3rd in the drivers championship this year to be best of the rest. Which I would take as a mini championship given the current situation.

[Massa_f1]

I am the only one, who believes it could be lack of motivation, after all this years running away with the title, he sees that Mercedes is running away with the title, and if he is honest with himself he know, there is not a high chance to win the whole thing, if you hear him over the radio, or his interviews he seems to be more down than usual. He is twenty-six, he nearly won everything, he could imagine, perhaps he thinks, why should I driving around circles, I could quit, be there for my family. Drivers are no robots, they interfere with the world outside of F1. It was said Lewis, Lewis performance was not good as usual in 2011, while having trouble with Nicole.  

 

To be honest most of the drivers apart from the Mercedes pair already look sick, bored, or tired as if the season is already at Round 16 or something.

Edited by Massa_f1, 21 April 2014 - 14:51.

[beute]

I dont know why people always assume driver performance is a constant, something a driver is stuck with and cant change.

That is obviously not true, the drivers performance is determined by outside influence.

You cant just hop from car to car and expect nothing to change.

 

New rules ,new tires, new engines, new cars.

There is always a high chance that some things that worked well with last yeas rules might not function so well with the new ones.

Some drivers have to start from scratch and others only have to make minor changes, some just carry on as if nothing changed.

the better the car, the easier it is to mask those problems.

Raikkonen looks like he has to push the reset button and start fresh while Vettel has less serious problems.

they will get there eventually.

 

Pirelli looks like the main culprit here, that rubber has some seriously baffling operating window.

Now that we have such hard and safe tires they should think about allowing drivers more setup range.

That change last year was completely arbitrary and unfair, all in the name of safety of course.

When in reality teams had the safety in their own hands, no team was forced to run dangerous settings.

That was a conscious decision from the teams, a gamble... it didnt play out for some and instead we got rules forced upon everybody instead, even those that did everything right and havent suffered even a single tire issue.

 

The rule changes regarding the tire set-up should have been temporary emergency rules until the fundamental problem with the tires was fixed.

why do we still have those rules in effect? we didnt have blown tires of that sort in 2011 and 2012 and with the new tires we most likely wont have them ever again, everything points to pirelli's own failure in creating a safe 2013 tire, not to teams running the wrong settings.

But people are tired of talking about tires, so we are probably stuck with that shît now.

 

/rant over

[NotSoSilentBob]

Pastor Maldanado won in a Williams at Barcelona. An equally amazing achievement wouldn't you agree?
 
BUT in both circumstances the victories required a certain amount of misfortune for a certain Mr Hamilton. As well as the fact the Torro Roso and the RBR were bloody quick in the wet  at Monza (Bourdais was 4th on the grid... BOURDAIS...coulda got a podium himself too)

Didn't even have to negotiate a standing start.... nor spray from other cars either, because by not having to do a standing start he was guaranteed to be in the lead at the first chicane! And by the time he pitted, the track was dry enough for slicks.

Also had the A-spec Ferrari engine for the first time that weekend too, as Ferrari were battling McLaren in the WCC and wanted a few more Ferrari-engined cars up the front.

The quality of Vettel's 2008 Monza win is massively overstated imo.

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 21 April 2014 - 14:58.

[Hamttel]

Surely Monza 2008 is devalued a bit by the fact an F1 chump like Bourdais qualified 4th? Right car, right place, right time.

 

Well, Seb ouqualified his teammate by almost 1 second. Still an amazing performance.

[bub]

My guess would be that Vettel is just not suited to the current equipment he has available to him. I don't know the technicalities of why exactly (power delivery and lack of rear df would be my guesses). Some cars and tyres suit some drivers more than others and it seems Vettel is uncomfortable with what he has atm. I think Ricciardo on the other hand, is much more comfortable with the car/tyres. He seems to me to be a very adaptable driver who can hop in any car and be quick right away (similar to Alonso and Hamilton). I also think Daniel is a very quick driver so Vettel struggling/being uncomfortable with the car + Ricciardo being very fast and more comfortable in the car = Ricciardo being more consistent and sometimes being quite a lot quicker/better with tyre preservation.

 

I expect Vettel to become more comfortable with the car/tyres and improve because I think he has the intelligence, work ethic and motivation to do so.

Edited by bub, 21 April 2014 - 16:45.

[Hamttel]

RIC was clearly looking after the tyres, to run a longer stint.

 

I still don´t see the point. I mean, you´re looking for the tires losing time against Seb just to do 3 more laps with those soft tyres (and the drop of the performance), considering that to pit sooner is the better option. Ric did not need those 3 extra lap at the end of the race, however lost some time with this long stint. Just my opinion!

[Afterburner]

A few things:

Firstly--and I suppose this is a good example of how short-sighted F1 snobs are--Bourdais is no 'chump'. You don't become a four-time Champ Car champion by being a lousy driver. Champ Car was not GP2, and was probably closer to being somewhere above GP2 but below F1 (as is IndyCar now, where GP2 drivers do not have a great track record). Bourdais struggled at STR because he had issues communicating with the engineers (language differences and all)--as a result, the car was never designed to his liking, and he had difficulty getting it set up properly. In a different team, I've no doubt he would've done much better--he puts his failure in F1 down to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and as Bourdais is usually an honest guy, I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment of things. Do I think he would've beaten the likes of Hamilton, Raikkonen, and Alonso in the same team? Probably not--the gap would have likely been similar to what we saw with Vettel, maybe less in an environment with which he was comfortable. However, I'd say that he was probably, at the absolute minimum, on Rosberg's level--circumstances just made him look worse than he actually was.

Secondly, I'd say Vettel's issues are almost entirely down to the car. I sincerely rate Ricciardo quite highly--above Rosberg, in my opinion at this point, if you need a comparison--so on a good day, I'd place the two of them about even with a slight edge to Vettel. All this BS about 'he's in a car that takes real skill to drive now' sounds like the sort of clap-trap that comes out of twelve-year-old Call of Duty delinquents who make their own rules by which they can call themselves the best. The fact of the matter is that he's simply out of his element right now--whether this version of F1 takes more or less skill is totally subjective because everyone has a different challenge to face; Vettel may have found the last formula a breeze while everyone else struggled massively, and now vice versa. Does it reflect poorly on him as a driver? Perhaps--his ups-and-downs are very car dependent--but in the grand scheme of things it highlights how fleeting success in racing can be if it's so dependent on the ruleset. Hypothetical: Fangio might lap the current field twice over were they to race in his era. Does that mean the drivers of this era are any less-talented? No, it just means that Fangio would be better than them with those cars. Simple as that--and I've lost count of the times I've had to say this. The perception of talent is so dependent on so many variables and circumstances that it's impossible to calculate it relatively. Funny how so many of us accept the 'you can't compare eras' mantra with drivers of the past, but are unwilling to apply the same logic to the present, as we enter what is clearly a new era for F1.

It's because of this that I've always tended to judge drivers against themselves--how well can they surmount the challenges with which they're faced, and what results can they bring with the opportunities they're given. Vettel has been more or less perfect by that criteria thus far--Alonso and Hamilton close behind with a few exceptions. The other drivers--Raikkonen, Ricciardo, and Rosberg, are great but aren't as close. Fair enough? I'd say. They're all great drivers in their own right, and I prefer to appreciate that rather than seek to demean those who are struggling. Their relative strengths so far have placed them all in the 'too-close-to-call' bracket.

Now, all this being said, based on what I've observed thus far in Vettel, I don't think he'll be down for long. Even the best have cold streaks--MS in 2005/2006, Hamilton in 2011, Raikkonen in 2008--and eventually they come out of them. Remember, this is the same driver who adapted from a really skittish STR to a totally different driving style designed to maximise the effectiveness of a quirky aero gadget. He knows how to alter his driving style to get the most out of a car. I don't think all the theories about him having to 'unlearn' his old style are entirely correct, but I think there is some merit to them. It's probable that the current formula is basically incompatible with his current skillset and he's having to learn as if from scratch, like a rookie. Based on the fact that he's carrying himself as such within the team right now--the slower, less-capable driver--I'd say this is probably close to the truth.

One thing's certain--Vettel is a realist. There is no PR-clouded excuse-ridden reason for his loss when he's the slower guy. He understands that if he's not delivering and the other driver is, it's clearly his fault. It remains to be seen whether or not he'll be able to get on top of his issues and come back to form. My money's on 'when', rather than 'if', but it also wouldn't surprise me if 'when' turns out to be as far off as a year or two.

[SophieB]

Folks, this thread was reopened for people to talk about the specific issues that might be affecting Vettel's driving just now. Sadly, so far there's not really enough people doing that to justify keeping this open for much longer.

There was always a risk it was going to turn into a thread where people instead just gave their general opinions about his talent and then argued about whether he was any good or not or got bogged down in arguing about old incidents. To be honest, as a thread, it was always pretty marginal. However, the mod do not like to close threads. If there is something to be gained from threads, we'll do our best to keep them open so it was cleaned up a bit and re titled.

So I'll leave it open for a bit longer but please do keep the focus on the here and now, what you think the issues affecting Vettel's current driving might be. As ever, any discussion about threads and how they're handled by PM, please.

[Skinnyguy]

I think the harder tyres are hurting him a bit. He was always really gentle on tyres, maybe he´s now paying the price for it instead of enjoying the advantage.

[Hamttel]

Pastor Maldanado won in a Williams at Barcelona. An equally amazing achievement wouldn't you agree?

 

BUT in both circumstances the victories required a certain amount of misfortune for a certain Mr Hamilton. As well as the fact the Torro Roso and the RBR were bloody quick in the wet  at Monza (Bourdais was 4th on the grid... BOURDAIS...coulda got a podium himself too)

 

Pastor Maldonado did not achieve a pole position with a Toro Rosso under the rain in Monza against much faster cars and the day before won from flag to flag under changing conditions. C´mon, Bourdais qualified 4th... 1 second behind his teammate.    When you are fast on dry on qualy and on the race means your car is fast. Rain is a world apart and even if the car still important, tends to make the cars little bit equal and drivers make the difference.

 

Bourdais coulda? Well by the same "coulda" we "could" say a lot of examples...

 

Sebastian Vettel proved in that TR he´s something special, not only because Monza 2008, even if now struggles and has been behind his teammate in 2 races from 3. I have to say in his career Sebastian improved race by race and in the second part of the championship is always much better. In the winter test he did not enough laps and while other genius as Lewis (or Alonso) doesn´t need to adapt, he does. That doesn´t mean he is not an amazing driver. 

Edited by Hamttel, 21 April 2014 - 17:06.

[bourbon]

Let's see, after 4 races, 1 of which he was on the podium, another in which he DNF'd and 2 in which he seemed slow but finished 5/6?

 

The problem is it is the 4th round and the car is still coming to him.  It isn't like this didn't happen before in 2012 and 2013, where Seb's teammate found the car coming to him and Seb did not.  Tyres, style, configuration, whatever - he'll work it out.

 

I think too many people are putting too much emphasis on that one single race in Monza 2008. If we're going to be doing that then I'm happy to claim Hamilton is the best wet weather driver of all time on the back of his 2008 Silverstone victory.

 

You cannot judge a driver based on a single race. Otherwise you get claims of Maldonado being a 'Barcelona specialist' or something after he won a couple of years ago.

 

Well that race is considered in light of the zillion other races that combined to make him a 4x WDC - same with his wins in 2009.  You have to keep it in perspective. 

[discover23]

Yeah, did you watch F1 back then, it's not only about his race victory in Monza, he was superb in 2007/2008, Red Bull didn't even think about if they take him or not, he delivered alone more points in the STR than their line up. Sebastian was seen as star driver that would be the same without this win. Though it doesn't go back to this victory alone, if people comparing his situation with Maldonado, I really have to ask if they were following F1, or just use "argument" made from other users.

The most promising young star back then was Kubica, not Vettel..

[1Devil1]

The most promising young star back then was Kubica, not Vettel..

 

Yeah, he was seen as possible WDC, but Vettel Imo was seen as next big thing after 2008, who can jump into the bracket of Lewis/Alonso, but let's follow Sophie, OT

[ASFA2011]

Blown diffuser boy doesn't look so mighty anymore

[Skinnyguy]

Yeah, he was seen as possible WDC, but Vettel Imo was seen as next big thing after 2008, who can jump into the bracket of Lewis/Alonso, but let's follow Sophie, OT

 

People makes the mistake of thinking 2008 it was all about Monza. Probably it´s the highlight, which is normal, but there was much more. Being always thereabouts fighting Renaults and BMWs was the most impressive thing. 

 

Year hasn´t started well at all, and I think it´s delusional to deny he has problems compared to his recent past shape. It was a shock watching him have a stint like the second in China, starting like a rocket and then going backwards big time. Regardless of Ricciardo being better than Webber (he probably is), Vettel´s level has gone down a bit. 

Edited by Skinnyguy, 21 April 2014 - 18:00.

[SR388]

I wonder if it is more difficult for him to provide good feedback for his crew regarding setup with this new car? If he is having to fight the car, he may not be able to give his engineers great info on things like how many rounds of wedge are needed or spring rubbers. Historically has seb been known for giving great feedback on setup? I know some are better than others.

[oligc94]

Blown diffuser boy doesn't look so mighty anymore

Isn't it past your bedtime?

[DarthWillie]

I have a feeling he's having problems with the tires. First stint in China was good, no problems, good speed, then he seemed to lose his speed from the second stint.

 

Also I would not be surprised if after 4 championships in a row it will be a bit more difficult to be motivated than the guy who just got promoted.

 

Still I think he will come out on top at the end of the year.

[maverick69]

The most promising young star back then was Kubica, not Vettel..

Quite.

Bobby really farked up with his other pursuits. The only guy that Fred and The Hammer ever cared about.....

[kenkip]

What i find absolutley stunning is that some so-called f1 fans want to devalue Seb's $ titles after four races.I get the feeling some of you guys have it in for the guy.As DC said in his latest column,this guys are only human,they will be beaten,they will suffer a blips in performance,they will lose motivation from time to time.Please put that in perspective before you bash his four titles.

[Exb]

Wasn't going to reply in this topic but what the hell... The race in China looks to me like tyre issues, as in not getting them in the right window for whatever reason (similar to the the Mercs last year, eg Barcelona when Lewis was 40 odd seconds behind and there was a race where Nico couldn't get them working - Bahrain? and he was then a long way behind Lewis, neither of them could be that bad one week to the next so it must have been down to the set-up on that particular weekend and shows how crucial it can be, also is a problem that Jenson seems to suffer from - Canada 2012 jumps to mind as the most obvious example ;) ). Not sure if its Vettels driving style causing the tyre issues or just that they didn't get the set-up right. Ricciardo said it was something they were working on in the Bahrain test as they didn't get chance in pre-season so maybe he found something which helps that Vettel hasn't yet? Vettel's first stint in China on the softer tyre seemed OK (he was holding his own to the Ferrari and other Red Bull) but on the harder tyre he seemed to suffer. Anyway that's my take on it after watching Jenson often struggle in similar conditions in the McLaren over the past 4 years years, it looks very similar. I didn't want to post as I think it comes across like I'm making excuses for Vettel, which I don't want to be the case and I don't want to sound like I'm taking anything away from Daniel who is driving beautifully, but if it is tyre issues its something Vettel will have to understand and adapt to, whether via set-up or driving style.

[SophieB]

Bye, thread.